I need the insight and wisdom of some of you to help me sort through this mess. First a little background which I will try to keep brief. It is so difficult to be coherent and focused right now.
My H had an affair and filed for divorce about 6 years ago. Throught the help of this site and those on this forum, my H returned and recommitted to our marriage. Like so many here, we went through lots of hard work and pain. However, we have not been intimate for the past two years - his decision. He said it "wasn't worth the trouble". When I asked him to explain, he said he meant exactly what he said. (I think he meant he preferred to masturbate - easier, quicker, no communication required.) A couple months before he made the no sex statement he refused to go to MC anymore as he felt the MC ganged up on him. (He absolutely hated exploring the reasons for the affair unless it had to do with my failures). I continued counselling for awhile without him. Shortly after his no sex proclamation, I became quite ill for an extended period. I know I should have fought for communication about this, but I did not have the energy as there were many very difficult challenges facing our family. I assumed H would come back around as usual and this may be just another nonsensical comment that our prior MC advised me to ignore.
I tried to get H to find another MC but he wouldn't. Finally last month he asked me if I would go to a MC with him. Yes!!
I was scared because of the distance that has come between us but optomistic that finally there was hope we could get back on track. I cannot continue living this way. I was, however, a little mistrustful of his motives for two reasons. First, before disclosure of his last affair he insisted that I go to IC. This was part of his way of justifying his behavior -- "Fix my broken wife. Meanwhile I deserve to be with someone else". Second, a significant part of the new MC's practice is devoted to divorce and custody mediation.
Last week I found a receipt from an adult store on the floor in our home. The receipt was for porn, lubricants and sex toys. None of these items are in our home and H is never home alone. I then found another such receipt. It was in his laptop computer case. (DD uses this computer sometimes, so I am also very concerned she saw the receipt.)
Since the receipt discovery I have been thinking about all the other possible clues I have been ignoring: H stopped wearing his wedding ring (says he gained weight and it's too tight); H travels overnight frequently; H works nights and weekends; H has been nasty and critical for a long time (until a couple weeks ago); H now leaves his cell phone in the car; and H has rejected me for any kind of sexual intimacy.
H hates the idea of anyone snooping - he gets furious if I check our teenage daughter's myspace profile. In any event, I cannot check emails etc because he logs on to his office account from home and I have no access.
So, I keep wondering why I am so afraid to confront him. Can he be using ALL these things by himself? The porn I could understand to some extent, but the sex toys? Even if so, coupled with everything else, this makes me feel so unwanted, unloved and uneeded. It feels like more secrecy, lies and selfishness. Since this stuff is not in our home and is not in his car (yeah, I snooped a little), then where is it? Is it with an OW? Someone please help me see the light. Is there an OW again?

Based on your description, it sounds like it. Typical behavior. You are wise to wonder.

Keep snooping. Think of snooping not as untrusting curiosity, but as necessary affair research.

Dimes to dollars, he is in a full-blown A. This sounds alot like my WH's behavior (minus the toys) who had back to back As. Why not start with a digital recorder in his car?

Does anyone have a different take on this than worthatry and stungalong?

If it is an A, then why would he want to start with MC again? How could a person be such a fraud?
- because his IC encouraged him to go to MC?
- because he is torn between the A and his marriage?

Because his counselor is going to help you understand why he needs a divorce.

I suspect he's trying to keep your reaction (emotional, legal or whatever) under control when you find out he's dumping you for OW.

to ease his conscience so he can say ..... to himself ....



"I tried, I even went to marriage counseling. It did not work."

Simone, boy there are a lot of red flags there and one thing I don't ignore now is my gut feeling. Trust your gut and investigate.

As for the MC, I agree with BR and Pep, his motives are most likely not to recover the M.

Do some additional snooping and try to find out for sure.

I don't really know what I can do to snoop. Tape recorder in car gives me the creeps and he is generally gone for twelve or more hours a day. Wouldn't he hear it click off after an hour or so? Cell phone - he makes so many business calls I wouldn't know one from the other and the bills don't come to the house.

After all we have been through with the previous A and recovery (can I still call it that?), why can't I just ask him? What would be the point for him to lie if a truthful answer would just get him where he wants (out of the M) more quickly?

Today, I had an individual session with the new MC. H has his session alone with her next week so its two more weeks until we see her together again. She thinks I should just come right out and ask him what he is up to and ask him about what I have found. I said I would rather do it in MC, but how can I hold this in for two more weeks. During this time, we are supposed to be doing these communication exercises. How can I possibly do this without exploding with questions and accusations? The MC said to just go ahead and get angry at him. I don't know. That just doesn't sound right from all I've read here.

He may feel very guilty about having a second A. That may be why he is suggesting MC.
My WH also suggested MC within about 45 minutes of me finding out about his A.
He didn't actually end it until several months later. I think it was adrenalin or panic talking (or something.) When he suggested MC,, I believe (now) he had no intention of fixing our marriage. He just didnt know what else to do. He knew the A was wrong and supposedly even tried to end it a month prior to me finding out. (Both he and OW told me that.) In the end, he had a much harder time ending it than OW did.

As far as the cell bills, look for a number that is called more than the others. I never had a bill initially, however I got my hands on them through a private investigator and found my WH's cell bill was through the roof, as he pretty much called her constantly. Many times every day. Text messaging was another big one. A REALLY big one!!

I never did the voice recorders, hidden cameras, or GPS, however many on this site have had positive proof with those about their spouses A's.
Dont feel guilty. Sounds like he is hiding a lot more from you than he should.

You said you wanted to bring this up during next MC, with the new MC. It is hard to wait two weeks. Ours was impossible to get in to see. 2-4 weeks always. Not much help when you need the help NOW!!
When I think back to our MC, my WH was not honest during those sessions. You know, he MEANT to be and he MEANT for it to be over with OW, but that haden't happened yet.
Many here will tell you that MC won't do you a single bit of good until the A is actually over and there is NO CONTACT AT ALL.

That is so true. If he still has any sort of contact with OW whatsoever, it greatly decreases the chances for your marriage to recover.

Honestly we did not get much out of MC, but the one thing that I remember that she told us that most on this site would agree with, is that if there is still contact with OW, then MC will not do you a lot of good. MC's are there to help your marriage and that can't be done until there is NC. Then and only then will the MC be able to help you.

I am sure we are bringing you down now, with everyone telling you that he is is having an A. Please don't let that discourage you from coming here. This place has helped us all so much!!

I will keep checking in with this thread. My dad is having major surgery tomorrow, so I may not be back for a couple days but, good luck!

Suzy

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...part=1&vc=1

Hi simone here is the link to Spying 101.
Good Luck

Ritz

Simone..

you are living in a very hostile marriage environment...

where are YOU YOU in this...

see this..

He said it "wasn't worth the trouble".

see that..that's a deal breaker as far as I am concerned...
that total rejection of you as a sexual being...as a woman...as someone entitle to live an intimate nurtured relationship....

the longer we live with the abnormal...the dangerousness is that the more it becomes normal...

it's a long road back...from compatalmentalizing spouses in to non-intimate partners...to fullfilling intimate ones...

and his denial of you on this level..feeds right in to your fears and inability to confront and communicate with him....

it has become a vicious cycle of you accepting being a non entity...and then behaving as one..

afraid to ask
afraid to snoop

you are well put in your place by him....

And the issue of an OW (which there is some type of outlet...).
and look how well your non-intimate status will feed right in to his justification of having affairs and OP..

my wife does NOT meet my needs...he will cry...
though he himself is the conductor,....

so simone...
the question is...
do you want to get back to physical connection with your husband...

are you willing to work and take the risks...
or are you expecting him to take the lead on this...

cause affair or no affair..you got some pretty big fish to fry on your own right now..

the fact that you agreed to a non-intimate marriage...which is its death toll
the fact that you are afraid to ask him things

I think YOU should aggressively start to communicate your desires and wants...

you will not draw him back in to a marriage without re-establishing the roles,,
you will not re-establish the role without communicatin your needs and BOUNDARIES

simone..what is it inside of you that accepted having a no contact marriage...
is that truly your desire or did you agree to something that is and was NOT what you desired..out of fear of keeping your man...

what do YOU want...

ARK

Did you use the name Simone back then? It seems vaguely familiar. Did your H participate here? If so, what was his name?

It seems unanimous amongst us non-professionals - he has "relapsed" and not necessarily with the same OW, right?

Could it be the same OW? Can you snoop this out?

I disagree with the MC's recommendation to just ask him what he's up to - not until you have better evidence. Asking too soon will just tip him off to your suspicions and he'll go further underground.

A few questions:

Do you have children with him?

What do you own together? - home, cars, etc.

Who controls the finances?

What were the grounds when he filed for divorce 6 years ago? Any other pertinent info from that episode?

Do you see where I'm going with these questions?

Regardless of what you decide to do about snooping or confronting him, you ought to consider taking steps to protect yourself financially. If he has control of your liquid assets, they may disappear.

We all smell a rat. Be careful.

WAT

WAT you are a JeanYus.

As with all of WAT's suggestions he hit the nail on the head!

If you confront your H too soon he will likely change his tactics and find either better ways to cover his tracks or new methods all together.

Continue to gather as much info as possible but protect yourself financially.

One thing that popped into my head when you mentioned the receipts you found is probably highly unlikely.....but.... what if...and it's a big if...it's not another woman but another man. I would not mention it if I hadn't recently witnessed a similar situation. I think it's best to be prepared for anything.

I am sorry you have found yourself in this situation. This is my worst fear.

simone..

I would tell you to start being happy happy happy that your husband has said he wants counseling...

I suggest you start reading on plan A...and start acting it now...

start smiling at him
start singing your swan song about your hope and desire to rebuild this marriage...

about reconnecting with him
about building a new relationship..

not in words but in actions.....

what has the tone of the home been for these past two years..
are you two friends.
do you laugh together
spend time together
go out for nice dinners...

I also believe his goal for marriage counseling is to bring a halt to this marriage..

so prepare to undermine that by confusing his set in stone "reasons' and rationale...

debunk and desolidify his excuses...

do you flirt with him...

and don't get me wrong..I do believe he is cheating...
therefor he is not SAFE to be with....sexually..but what about signs and actions from you that you desire to re-establish intimacy down the line...after criteria met...(which he doesn't have to know about right now)

but do you two hug,...hold hands...etc..
do you touch eachother at all...

cause I think you may want to consider showing signs of interest in him....

it will get his attention
and it will chip away at his walls...

eye contact
smiling
things he likes...

how do you two interact now....

and how can you change your interaction with him...

ARK

Sim

I am sorry to say that based on what I know from experiance and MB this is full blown A and I agree you need to gather more evidence. WAT is correct. Don't exposue until you know more. Then have a D-day and expose the heck out of him.

aWOL

I wanted so much to believe that H's motivation for MC is sincere...but the reasons you all suggest make sense too: guilt about a second A; MC will help me understand why he needs a divorce; MC will keep my reaction to his leaving under control. H has been in individual counseling for two or three times a week for over twelve years. I believe this is part of the reason our marriage began to fail. He only opens up to his counselor, not to me.

Suzychapstick - Thanks for taking the time to help. I hope all goes well with your Dad's surgery.

Ark - wise words. Not long before H said "it wasn't worth the trouble" we were happy - at least I thought so. I can't remember what happened. He said those words just before I got sick for an extended time. My being unavailable due to illness fit right in to his rejection of me as a sexual being. You ask some difficult questions. However, it was never my conscious desire to have a non-intimate marriage. I was so deeply hurt by him and his rejection that I just couldn't risk putting my feelings out there. This wasn't the first time in our marriage that H has rejected me in this way, but never for this long.
Your Plan A suggestions are good ones, but H has not touched me in over two years. Though there has not been intimacy we do eat dinner together as a family and sometimes go out to dinner as a couple. Flirting, smiling and being nice right now will be so unnatural. I just want to cry.

WAT - Yes, I did use the name Simone way back then. H never participated here. I showed him Steve Harley's article about no contact and he was not impressed - thought the approach too simplistic since his A was "different." I don't think it is the same OW as she no longer works with him as of about one year ago.

To answer your questions: married 21 years; one 16 year old daughter; always wanted more children; we own house; he manages finances and I pay bills. As of this week accounts are joint. For several years I had been asking H to add my name to the account to which he deposits his paychecks. I asked again last week. He threw a little fit about the timing of my request and acted as if it wasthe first request. This week he met me at the bank and put my name on the account. I thought this was a good sign. However, for the first time in our marriage, H started to complain this year that I am not contributing enough financially. Money has become a sword.

Heroswife - yeah, I thought of the OM scenario too. From the DVD titles he purchased it seems unlikely, but there have been other things that made me wonder.

aWol - while everyone here seems so sure, I don't want to believe it...in fact, I can't yet.