most of the time ....

They/we lie because they/we do not have trust or faith in the ~system~ of "honesty is the best policy".

Lying is an attempt to control the outcome of an unknown, so that the results will be favorable to them/us.

Lying is an "insurance policy" for a person who lacks trust in honesty/truth.

In my recovery journal I wrote:

"WH does not like truth because he does not trust what he cannot control."

This also goes for the betrayed, who refuses to face reality ... and lies to him/her self.

In a way ... I think some of our "gentle" words for adultery ... rob us of the opportunity to experience the UGLY truth ....

When someone is an adulteror/adulteress ... is it really all that benificial to say "wandering spouse" ... ? I wonder.... In the (also excellent) affair-recovery book Torn Asunder ... Dave Carder uses the more correct term "infidel".

Hey Pep,
What is up with that? **Mona Lisa has no eyebrows**
Makes Monas eyes look even creepier IMHO! LOL!!!

A lovely poem by Madeleine l'Engle

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You promised
well, you actually didn't promise much, did you?

but that little is enough
is more than enough

We fail you
over and over again
but you promised to be
faithful to us
not to let us fail
beyond your forgiveness
of our failure

In our common temptation
you promised
we could not be tempted more
than we are able
you promised not to lead us
into temptation
beyond our frail strength
and you
yourself
are our refuge in temptation

our escape from the pit
and that is enough
so that we can bear
more than we thought we could bear
of lonliness, nothingness, otherness
sin, silliness, sadness

for thine is the Kingdom and
the other great fors:

forbearance
forgiveness
fortitude
forever

This is what you promised
it is enough
it is everything


~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I love this poem. It speaks to me of faith and trust and truth.

Recovery is all about faith and trust and truth .... and it starts outside ourselves... then gently grows inward to touch our hearts and minds.

I change my tag line as self-amusement ... this particular one ... I read inside a Snapple cap. It amused me. That's all. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Is "wandering spouse" an attempt to be more polititcally correct?????????????????

They are what they are. Cheaters. Infidels.

I believe we also lie b/c we are scared of the truth. Scared of facing the consequences of the truth.

Kim

because we lack faith

lie = self-will

Protection, either of self or others.

I am a very honest person. My mother used to say I was honest to a fault.

As an adult, my lying, when it happens, is often to protect someone's feelings, because in my own misguided way, I think the hearer can't handle the truth.

Instead of: "What do I think of that dress? It's hideous and makes you look fat."

I might say: "What do I think of that dress? Your face glows. You look lovely."

Do you think they see through that?

Is it a lie? Well, not exactly... but it's not what I was thinking... a white lie?... do they exist?

Interesting conversation, Pepperband.

If you ask an important question of this MB board ... would you appreciate a response like the example you gave?

Vague and indirect?

Hi Pep -

Liars lie because they are self centered, crave control, and cannot grasp humility.

I don't understand what faith has to do with it. Faith in what? - the truth? Can you explain?


I use the still more correct term, pond scum. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

liars lie because they are afraid of outcomes they can not control.

Liars do not have 'faith' in something bigger than self. It is the height of arrogance, true, because the liar does not believe in answers outside of his/her own imagination.

Hmmm...

If the question is important... vague and indirect wouldn't be a good response.

Is asking if I like a dress important? Maybe to the asker... maybe very important.

Let's take my example of the ugly dress... your gf LOVES her new dress... she's spinning around and smiling... she obviously feels beautiful... are you going to tell her it looks like crud, or will you mention her face, as I did, to avoid huring her feelings?

Obviously, you know what I'd say. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

But you would agree that the converse is not true, right?

WAT

On lies....Early following d-day when I was having real difficulty believing anything my FWH said. He responded, "well, I guess I should expect this, we always taught the girls that once you have lied to someone, they will always have trouble believing you in the future, even when you are telling the truth, why should it be any different for me."

That lost trust is very hard to regain.

I think WS lie for the obvious reasons, the truth would make them face the decision they don't want to make or take the ability to make the decision away from them entirely. Had my FWH told me the truth before he began his affair, I would have told him, if you do this thing, it is over between us.

My FWH has told me, and this I do believe. If I had discovered his affair at any point while it was ongoing and gave him the option to remain with me or go with OW, he would have ended the affair immediately. As it was, he ended the affair without any input from me because it wasn't solving any of the problems he thought it would and had created dozens of new, more serious problems for him.

Our pre-affair marriage was based on trust, I simply didn't get the verify part. If I had, my FWH would never have had the opportunity to carry on his affair in secrecy.

Who

Fidelity = faithfulness. Infidel is just a synonym for unfaithful individual. Since 9/11, I believe that it has taken on a more layered, perjorative meaning. But Carder's book *was* excellent. He has a lot of insight.

Why does anyone lie? Because it's the easy way out. The easy way is seldom the right way, just as it is often much easier to say yes than it is to say no. At least that's what I tell my children.

Oh, and "pond scum"? Nice. If that's the term you prefer, fine, but it says as much about you as it does about the infidel. Words can and do hurt.

I accept the compliment!

It does say as much about me - that I am willing to attach a descriptive term to the behavior that it deserves without trying to hide my true feelings. Honest, wouldn't you say - since we're on the topic of honesty?

Other useful, descriptive terms might include "homewrecker", "cockroach", "gutter dweller", etc. You get the point.

WAT

I think I know what Pep would say too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Pep, remember when friend S. said "don't you just love the color of this lipstick?"

What did YOU say? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> LOL Now that there was funny!

Queen NS <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Excuse my lack of coffee this morning, lol.

Not sure what the point is?

Faith and fear are opposites.

A liar lacks faith, and is full of fear. Lies are a liars attempt to control outcomes (avoid fear from becoming reality).

Rosie - just trying to differentiate what the "faith" thing is. Faith in what? The truth?

If so, yes - liars don't have faith that "truth" is the way to go. They don't believe that lies can come back to haunt them and that telling lies violates how they would like others to treat them. Pretty simple, huh?

My "converse" question was just to propose that if liars don't have faith, not having faith does not a liar make - depending on what "faith" is in this context. Hence my question.

WAT
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WWPRD?