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well, faith, as *I* understand it, is in a power bigger than myself. For me, that higher power is God (as *I* understand Him). For others, it can be something totally different.
Its trust and faith in the fact that even though I do NOT have the answers, my higher power does. That if I surrender my self will and stop attempting to control things that I only imagine I have control over in the first place, that the world will continue to turn, the sun will still rise, that *I* am not the central force behind the universe.
When I only take care of what is mine to take care of and let others take care of theirs, and leave the outcomes to my higher power - I find I live with faith and trust, instead of fear and the need to control others.
~ Pain is a given, misery is optional ~
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Male 2/54, married 5/84
one son, 8/88; one deceased son 1/91 - 8/99
d-day 6/00; OM was W's best friend's H, pallbearer for son
W separated 8/00
Plan B 7/01
W filed 12/01; final 3/02
OM divorce final 4/02
XW, OM married 8/02
Registered on 09/29/00 12:00 PM
WAT, now I can begin to understand where you are coming from. I have two children born in the same years as yours. My condolences.
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Do you think they see through that? I think you mean no harm.
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I don't understand what faith has to do with it. Faith in what? - the truth? Can you explain? faith in truth works for me faith that the outcome from truthfulness will be much better in the long run than the outcome from a lie faith that there is a purpose of truthfulness that reaches beyond one's personal comfort level and for some of us lucky ones <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ... faith in God
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IMHO liars do so b/c they can't accept whatever consequences come from their choices and actions - poor or otherwise, honest self-reflection is hard for some. Lying is selfish and self-protecting. Concur they also don't have faith that whoever they are lying to has the backbone to accept the truth. As BS know, there's more backbone in our spines than the WS could have ever imagined.
V/r, No way
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Pep, remember when friend S. said "don't you just love the color of this lipstick?"
What did YOU say? LOL Now that there was funny!
Queen NS I forgot ... prerogative of age ... what, pray tell, was my response <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
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Your answer was "NOPE"
doncha remember, it was that pale lipstick that you could hardly see? Great for her but not for you/us?
Money can buy you a fine dog, but only love can make him wag his tail.
~ Kinky Friedman
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Hey .... what's wrong with that?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
If you ask me a question (NewBeginningII) silly me, I figure you are asking for my actual opinion, not something else!! Not cruelty, mind you ... but the truth of my OPINION....
"Do you like this dress?" ... "No, I don't like the cut. "
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I do hear you, Pepperband, and yes, if I'm asking YOU, I know I'll get the truth - harsh as it can sometimes be. If you ask me, you will also get the truth - mamsypamsy (is that actually a word?) as I may be. I will say that your face is glowing when you wear that dress. I'll find *something* lovely to say... I can almost promise that. Personally, I may hate the frock, but if YOU think you look beautiful, who am I to disagree? OTOH, if a good friend TRULY wants my opinion -- and I think we can all tell the difference -- then I will say what I think. One friend of mine tried on a suit that was ***clearly*** too short for her stumpy legs (a thing of which I know a thing or two)... and I said, "I think you should try a longer skirt -- how about that one over there?"... now if she then asked if she had stumpy legs, I'd be in big trouble. Saying, "Your face is lovely" just won't cut it, will it? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
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now if she then asked if she had stumpy legs, I'd be in big trouble. Saying, "Your face is lovely" just won't cut it, will it? she'd be knowing you are fullanambypambybulla Know how I know which are my true friends? The one's who say to me ... "Pep (not my real name by-the-way) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ... YOU are so full of it. Cut it out!"
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now if she then asked if she had stumpy legs, I'd be in big trouble. Saying, "Your face is lovely" just won't cut it, will it? I'm an expert at this. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> You say "You've got lovely legs, but they're not the longest, are they? (smile) ...you don't want anything to draw the eye away from your face/hair/shoulders - that's your knockout feature..." The important thing, to my mind, is not to compromise your own opinion - cos you'll feel bad and eventually resentful. But you don't have to clobber the other person with brutal 'truth'. It's only your opinion after all - someone else might think they look fabulous. TA
"Integrity is telling myself the truth. And honesty is telling the truth to other people." - Spencer Johnson
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Faith and fear are opposites.
A liar lacks faith, and is full of fear. Lies are a liars attempt to control outcomes (avoid fear from becoming reality). This is an interesting statement, and something to ponder. Let's take my example of the ugly dress... your gf LOVES her new dress... she's spinning around and smiling... she obviously feels beautiful... are you going to tell her it looks like crud, or will you mention her face, as I did, to avoid huring her feelings? I think it is selfish to lie - for any reason. There is a tactful way to say just about anything. You wouldn't necessarily have to tell someone that a dress looks like crud on them. Couldn't someone say "I don't think that is the most flattering dress you've worn. My favorite is the blue one." I don't think it's kind to mislead someone, nor do I think it is "protecting" anyone but themselves.
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There are two kinds of lies, remember.
Commission - active redirection away from the truth. Fabrication from whole cloth.
Omission - passive dissembling. Not saying the truth.
Most people do a lot more of the latter than the former.
Which is worse?
FWW's 10 year LTA was a lifestyle of the latter. But during the year after DDay 1 she was dominated by the former.
Added: I'm always getting in trouble, even around here, for not being able to do the latter.
Last edited by Aphelion; 02/03/06 12:38 PM.
"Never forget that your pain means nothing to a WS." ~Mulan
"An ethical man knows it is wrong to cheat on his wife. A moral man will not actually do it." ~ Ducky
WS: They are who they are.
When an eel lunges out
And it bites off your snout
Thats a moray ~DS
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by WAT: Liars lie because they are self centered, crave control, and cannot grasp humility.
by BR: liars lie because they are afraid of outcomes they can not control. As a reformed liar (but not an infidel) the reasons above ring true with me. It's not that I didnt have faith in the truth, but that I deserved better than the truth would get me. I had faith that if I didnt lie things would be ok, but I also knew that if I did lie I could manipulate the situation so that I got better than fair. *I* deserved better than fair because I COULD manipulate the situation. Control and manipulation fed my need for superiority. Total lack of humility. Fear of being average. Trust in nothing, especially the truth. Many kids growing up in highly disfunctional homes learn quickly that the truth will NOT be rewarded. There is definitely a lack of trust in the truth because the truth can get you punished, sometimes severely. It's hard to unlearn that lesson. - Dru
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People lie to control an outcome—to their benefit. It’s about ego. Let's take my example of the ugly dress... your gf LOVES her new dress... she's spinning around and smiling... she obviously feels beautiful... are you going to tell her it looks like crud, or will you mention her face, as I did, to avoid huring her feelings? Assuming she ASKS your opinion...if you dont tell her your true opinion... Are you sure it is not also to protect yourself from being “guilty of meanness”? And isnt that the same "ego motivated" lie disguised as politeness? We are organic decision making machines. Truth promotes decision making (should I wear this dress on the date or not)...and our rational functions (am I looking for compliments or do I want to know if the dress looks good)....ability to reason and grow (hmm...maybe I AM fishing for compliments, wow why is that?) Information is power. Lies described as "politeness" really dont help anyone.
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penaltykill - it was very sophisticated of you to wonder what the source of my "honesty" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> could be and do the research. Impressive. I've been around here a long time and old timers have probably become accustomed to my sometimes brashness and unabashed honesty. I call 'em the way I see 'em. I do not shy away from using stark terms, questioning assumptions, and pointing out hypocrits. I got a new titanium cased hypocrisy meter for a "seasonal gift" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> and it sometimes vibrates off the table when I read posts here. (this is NOT a "lie" - it's use of my cynicism license <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> ) All that said, I do understand that use of terms like "pond scum" in describing the behavior of some WSs may produce reactions such as yours and may result in genuine skepticism of anything else I may say - possibly indicating strong, uncontrolled emotional rage. A fair reaction for those not familiar with me. Actually, I sparingly pull that term out and usually use it when humor may be recognized and appreciated. That was the case on this thread. I also use it sometimes when communicating to a new BS in the throes of self doubt about their sanity. Rest assured I am currently comfortable in my personal recovery. WAT
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Many kids growing up in highly disfunctional homes learn quickly that the truth will NOT be rewarded. Dru ... this is so true, sadly.
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Pep (not your real name by-the-way), kiss my grits. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> Your friend and accomplice, Suz <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
Money can buy you a fine dog, but only love can make him wag his tail.
~ Kinky Friedman
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isn't that a cute card??? I bought it at the Gene Autry Western museum...
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Yes! I thought so. So CUTE! That buckin' horsey ride was fun too, wasn't it!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
Money can buy you a fine dog, but only love can make him wag his tail.
~ Kinky Friedman
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