I'm not exactly sure how to ask what i'm looking for, so i'll try to get the ball rolling and maybe this will turn into a discussion or maybe someone will have a quick and easy explanation for me.

Here goes, I read posts on MB forum and I see where people have posted about infidelity and during the affair the BS has to work to "attract" or coax the WS into opening up and dropping defenses so that they can resolve the issue.

I don't know if that makes sense but I am wondering how difficult is it for people to ignore how they're feeling and use their heads when they're talking to each other. Is this just a completely foreign concept to some people?

Hi, Shad,

I think it is a great question. I have seen Plan A's fail for not answering this one for themselves. Seems like it takes "sacrifice," putting your emotional needs and pain on the back burner and pretending something else to lure the WS home.

That would be the worst perspective to Plan A.

Perspective is important.

Humans have many emotions occurring at once, every day. Irritation, frustration, joy, gratitude, anger, pain, fear, etc. We have those happy/sad moments that seem to strike at the same time. All emotions are information. They give us a status report based on our beliefs. If our belief is that we are the perfect one betrayed by the bad one, then Plan A is going to feel like ignoring their feelings, manipulation and sacrifice.

If we believe that we are part of a two-human marriage, equals, each having contributed to the state of the marriage pre-A, then Plan A feels more like polishing ourselves to shine, and it feels great because we're actually doing it for ourselves. Overcoming LBs and finding out our needs, their proportion and why we feel erased/replaced when we're cheated on; improving communication so we listen with respect and brave intimacy by expressing our thoughts and feelings...those are the thoughts that keep us busy doing Plan A, and maintaining that perspective well into recovery.

Pain is information, too. It is someone changing, defining or replacing you. Pain is deeper if you believe that someone else can make you do stuff. You have control over your perspective and what it means. Our physical bodies help us to cope, but not ignore, with pain. You can have a broken leg, but you can still laugh, right? Emotionally, you can feel pain, hold it, let it sit, and still function. As long as your thoughts are focused solely on that someone who is doing whatever to you (and you figure out why it hurts so much), then the pain is being handed to you over and over again, because that is what we're focused on. The "how could yous" are the worst pain inflicters.

Plan A focuses on causes and effects, along with taking steps for exposure, no contact, etc. This is productive, adds to self-esteem and respect, clarifies reality. Good stuff. You're handed some good emotions if you believe you're doing your best. If you believe you're being a fake or a martyr, well, you can imagine what emotions you'll be handed.

Hope I hit the mark, or came close.

LA

Thank you for the response LA. It's clear to me now I haven't thought about the subject enough. That clears up enough of it to where I can continue pondering without a problem.

Something else, if you happen to look at this thread again.

I view ENs as something that do not have to be fullfilled by a spouse. I have need at all that cannot be filled by God, myself, or my friends. So I don't really buy the explanation of affairs happening to meet a need that's not being met in the marriage.
Maybe you have some perspective on this.

Thanks again for the reply.

Wow, am I'm glad you believe what I believe. LOL.

That's a relief. I feel like a Harley traitor sometimes. However, you end up somewhere I don't with that belief. You say that it doesn't contribute to affairs happening to meet a need not being met in the marriage? Now there, I half disagree.

See, these ENs that the spouse is supposed to meet in their mate, they are in the eye of the beholder. If a WS feels inadequate, has always felt inadequate, and allows an inappropriate relationship to develop where WS FEELS adequate, temporarily, that's meeting a need. However, the Spouse couldn't have met it. They weren't necessarily doing anything to make the WS feel inadequate, except witness WS as themselves, warts and all. Intimacy. New person = clean slate, chance for temporarily using false self to gain most admiration, acceptance and confidence. Until the OP becomes the witness over time and it has to start all over again.

I know that I was a bunch of holes in my self. Couldn't fill me with enough attention, admiration, appreciation, conversation, information of self...you name it. I was bottomless. People are my drug. I think you knew that from my posts.

Until I began recognizing I didn't really have holes so deep, so unfillable, so defective, I couldn't get my needs met by my spouse. Had to change perspective, accept my humanity and true self, and give to myself.

If we live externally, we're adrift. Too internally, and we're seperated from humanity...but inbetween, allowing needs to be met reasonably, voluntarily and with joy, well, that's where I'm heading now. Thank goodness I find God internal where I used to look for him externally. Otherwise, I would have those holes you mention and be still imbalanced to the external.

Needs, wants and desires. I'm still working on what those are, how they are different, and what they symbolize to me.

Now, let me have yours. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA

Ah I understand, I should have said "I do not believe that people have innate needs that must be met in a marriage in order to eliminate EA".

It appears we have the same perspective, I am just not too amazing with communicating mine.

When I was 19 my wife's(girlfriend's at the time) mother was in the process of recovering from her abusive childhood and a recent abusive marriage that was likely a result of the childhood problems.

At this time as far as anyone from the outside could tell I didn't have any emotions. Besides anger of course(that's all men are supposed to have right :-) ). Since her mother was recovering she was keenly aware of every little behavior that could mean emotional problems. As soon as she found out I had the potential to become abusive she handed me a Christian self-help book and cut off all contact between myself and her family.

I started working on myself, being that I was quite young I was able to get most of the big stuff straightened out relatively quickly. I became aware of myself, and more aware, and more aware. I was constantly fighting my emotions and forcing my beliefs to change. I put sticky notes all over everything that told me I am loved. My car, bathroom mirror, computer monitor, ceiling above my bed.

Also around this time I was diagnosed with bipolar I. Probably a pretty big factor in shaping my beliefs as I was growing up.

There's just so much more I could talk about but it would turn into a huge unorganized ramble. So I will invite questions instead :-)

I kind of forgot what we were talking about, I also have ADHD lol.

LOL...when people say, "Shad, you've got a lot" they have no idea, huh?

Okay, what was the name of the Christan self-help book? I need it for my sons, especially the 22-year-old. He'll be home from Afghanistan in May, out of the service. After doing both Iraq & Afghanistan, already having anger issues and not feeling loved, he's ripe and ready. What book spoke to you?

I'm not mothering him...oh, no. His wife (he got married a year ago December on leave) gives him anger management books, too. He is actually quite the self-examiner. I would like something God-based just to make him mad. No, not really. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Because I believe that a higher power is essential to recoverying ourselves.

So, you think you only had one emotion (anger)? Did you find out you had many and lumped them together? Are you good at discerning what each one is and what information they are telling you?

My H didn't have anger. Wasn't allowed. His one emotion was guilt.

LA

The book that was given to me is called "Love is a Choice" She stocks up on them from ebay and hands them out to everyone she knows.

Yeah one emotion. In my family we're not supposed to cry, it's bad, if you cry you get punished. So I learned to get angry instead of sad. When I was working on feeling the other emotions, the first month or so I couldn't tell that anything was happening. Then a bit later I would feel sad, then immediately become angry. It would surprise me every time that happened. Eventually I was able to stop the anger reflex.

I sometimes still have trouble figuring out why I'm feeling a certain way, I've found that writing down questions for myself helps. "What am I feeling?" "When did I start feeling this way?" "What are some possible things that you could be reacting to?"

And if I discovered that it was hurt from long past, I would dwell on it and try to feel it as strongly as I could. If I was sad I would cry and cry as long as I could until it felt unnatural to get as much of it out as I could. If I was angry I would kick and scream and beat up my pillow and go beat up trees with sticks.

I have a very angry 13 year old inside of me. I have a lonely 8 year old, and I have an unloved worthless 5 year old. But God and I take care of them now.

I had huge huge abandonment and jealousy issues. I couldn't get off the phone with any of my girlfriends without feeling horrible. I would always try to manipulate them(subconsciously) by talking in a certain tone or looking a certain way. Of course it never worked because those tools do not work on anyone but my parents.

Eventually I started talking to God every time I felt lonely, abandoned, or worthless. I found I was able to eliminate my manipulative behavior by talking to God prior to seeing Jessica. Sometimes I would have to take a break and spend a minute by myself and talk to Him when I started feeling afraid.

I want to keep talking hehe. I will later though my fingers are getting tired :-D

Wow, Shad,

You just solved a 44 year old problem of mine. Not bad at all for a single post, huh? The way you describe how anger was the only emotion allowed...well, there's my answer!

I've been stumped why I can't feel anger...feels like pain. Same physical sensations. In my family, tears were allowed--family who weeps together, well...you know.

What I wasn't allowed to have--it was bad, evil and unsightly, was anger. I couldn't have boundaries in any way. No boundaries, no anger. Anger hurt my mother. Anger was disrespectful. Anger was selfish. Wow. No wonder anger is so painful to me. It feels like the same thing.

And I think that helps me to understand my raging son. Well, he doesn't rage anymore, but it has been his primary emotion for as long as I remember. See, what I reacted to with my sons was their pain. I couldn't do anger. It represented all that I was told it did. So when he feels pain, he rages. He knows anger. He has a lot of boundaries. What he can't do is pain. Am I lost or on the right track? Anger plus pain equals rage?

I have the Bradshaw books...Healing the Shame that Binds Us and Homecoming: Healing the Wounded Inner Child. I have a long way to go on the inner child because I skip the meditations. I don't make myself tape and do them. I want someone to do them with me. H says he will...but he's scared and I'm now thinking of getting a group of female friends for it. I need to get to my inner kids ages, know why they are there...other than the obvious 8-year-old sudden adult when my mom died. She's been running my life for a long time. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I hadn't thought of abandonment AND jealousy issues seperately. My primary is abandonment (adopted), and it manifests in stunning jealousy. I shocked my H and myself during his A with jealousy--feeling replaced, discarded and erased. I kept saying I was Kleenex. Didn't take a mental giant to see that has been my fear my whole life. That's why I'm happy for the crap in my marriage...the adultery served to get me to the help I needed where nothing prior would.

Thank you!

LA

I'm glad I've helped you out =D

I do my best to only become angry when the anger can be used as a tool, I probably get it right 50% of the time.


Wow we have to get our terminology straightened out.
First of all pain, give me some other words for this, is it feeling shameful or guilty? Or hopelessness, or worthlessness?

When I think of rage I feel it as something different from anger. The word rage is often used in the same spots as anger. Rage for me comes when I feel I am being forced or controlled into doing something I do not want to, by myself(unable to control what I feel) or someone else(my parents lol). What do you think of as rage?

YES!

They're not, jealousy is a symptom of abandonment fears. I separated them in my post because you can have problems caused by fear of abandonment without feeling jealousy, but excessive jealousy is almost always a part of the abandonment fear.

I kept saying I was a useless bag of water =)

I'm going to have to do a whole other post on this. I'll do it tomorrow I have school in the morning. goodnight, love you <3

Oh, make it difficult, will ya?

"Wow we have to get our terminology straightened out.
First of all pain, give me some other words for this, is it feeling shameful or guilty? Or hopelessness, or worthlessness?"

Pain...is what hurts in the middle of my chest. Geesh. Rejection = pain; shame = pain, anger = pain...all emotions equals pain. For a long time, kindness hurt. It all hurts. I only have one emotion!!! LOL

Most recently, someone being rude hurt...logically, I knew it was anger, but it HURT. I don't get power from anger, I get pain. I don't feel strong from pain, I curl inward, around it. Being told to straighten up and fly right hurts, like the bottom falling out of my heart.

I need some help, eh?

"Rage for me comes when I feel I am being forced or controlled into doing something I do not want to, by myself(unable to control what I feel) or someone else(my parents lol). What do you think of as rage?"

I only understand it from my son. He says it is being angry to the nth degree. It is combusting without burning up--superhuman strength and physically mighty. Feels out of control and impotent. Anger is lower key, something simple he can express or retaliate for a quick fix. His dreams are full of fighting, death and destruction. They have been fighting dreams since he was small.

He says he can't force himself to do what he doesn't want to do--which isn't a truth but a feeling. He does a lot of stuff because he is forced to--he's in the Army. Heck, he did Iraq and Afghanistan (nine days left). He raged against the Army, his parents (and yes, I deserved it), and himself. He's an equal opportunity rager. He is full of negative judgments against others, countries, the world and its systems. He's 22, so that has to account for some of it, but not all. He's a fighter...favorite movie is Fight Club.

I don't know rage. I don't know simple anger. I know pain, shame, guilt, worthlessness, being defective, born wrong, resentment, frustration, irritation, unreasonable sorrow, obscure melancholy, nostalgia, severe gratitude, debilitating nothingness, rejection is my specialty.

I learning acceptance, respect, not comparing, stopping judgments and seperateness.

"I kept saying I was a useless bag of water =)"

Hey, water is never useless and a bag is convenient. You got that going for you!

Now, go to class. Think of all those authors writing to you about all they know, giving you that wonderful attention and treasuring you're opening their book.

LA

Yeah, I'm forcing you...whaddaya gonna do about it?

What do you mean you deserved it? People only do what they can.


What specifically did you know was anger? Them or you?

Yes rejection and shame and anger all come from the exact same place.
doesn't the army offer psychotherapy to it's people?
frustration and resentment are both anger. Do you still feel like you're defective or worthless now?


this could actually help me quite a bit in helping me get to class. Thank you.

ttyl <3

This makes me extremely happy to see people treasuring the struggles in their life. I am very thankful for my less-than-stellar childhood. I'm not trying to be a Harley basher here, but I see alot of people on this message board that need real psychological help, but are instead twisting the use of emotional needs and destroying parts of their social lives in order to make their relationships work.

Anyway I'll post more later =o

Yes, I deserved it only because I could see my reactions and mothering were passed down...as they were to every mother before me. I've forgiven myself and am doing my amends to my sons by sharing what I'm learning with them. I know it is their own journey. I'm not looking to fix them anymore. Since I believed I had to earn love (be good enough, do enough, give enough), then I have no problem in saying I deserve my son's rage, my MS's manipulation, and youngest son's rejection.

All of them are whole, lovable human beings, finding their way. My amends to reparent in a respectful way isn't a one-way street...I know I'll grow from it.

I totally believe that we did the best we could with what we knew...but when we knew better, we did better. I'm just now doing the second half, and as I learn more, I'm sure I'll keep doing it!

"Yes rejection and shame and anger all come from the exact same place." You got some 'splainin' to do, Lucy.

"doesn't the army offer psychotherapy to it's people?" Aren't you cute! Long story, but...when he gets back to Italy, he will be looking into counseling, though as a short timer (only three months left), the odds are they won't get to the first session. He said he will look into regular IC as a veteran benefit. He says he really needs it for all he's seen and can't process.

"Do you still feel like you're defective or worthless now?"

Nope. Not at all. And not because I don't have rejection in my life now that we're in recovery. I have a lot from my family right now, but I know I'm not defective. I'm as worthy of respect and love as every other person God made. I get that. I just don't feel it all the time, but I know it and believe it.

"frustration and resentment are both anger."

Okay, going back to rejection, shame and anger all coming from the same place...could you mean that anger, like a big umbrella, which I've come to believe is a signal of either someone crossing my boundaries or not meeting my expectations, have subsets...subtle differences with important information.

Frustration is feeling slightly angry because I've fallen into the expectation that something or someone should be doing something...that seems about right to me. I don't become frustrated very often anymore, and when I do, I usually check my perspective and expectation of others. Same with myself. It's a doublecheck.

I can see where rejection is part of anger, also...My parents and sister violate my boundary when they tell me I've done nothing with my life and it's time to start, and straighten up and fly right...the pain doesn't come from feeling worthless, but knowing that it is a violation and I'm not enforcing it one bit--in fact, I'm still agreeing with them, saying of course it is all right to do that, to keep them from disowning me again. That's rejection two ways, coming inside from them, and going oustide from myself...self-rejection. Makes a lot of sense because I've been thinking on self-betrayal and seeing where I do it.

Apparently, as an adult, I'm allowed to say, "Stop that! That hurts!" Okay, so those words stick in my throat, but at least I know it isn't dishonoring them to say that. Not saying it dishonors myself.

And shame...that's where I'm lost. I believe shame is not living up to my own expectations. Maybe there is anger in there for having unreasonable ones of myself. Okay...maybe I could get there from here.

I'll doublecheck all this information in my marriage, too, and see how it stands up.

"What specifically did you know was anger? Them or you?"

Are you asking if I felt anger (as pain) or did they?

Interesting question. I took mine to be anger with the physical feeling of pain. Could it be, though, since my experience is pain that what I was reacting to also was pain in the other person, which really was their anger?

Whoa. No wonder I want to stop anger, huh? I mean, if I see my H angry, I hurt because I believe he's in pain. He's not. He's angry. (I married someone who refuses to display anger or tell you how angry or why. Now that makes sense to me.)

And what woke me up to my love for him and saving the marriage was reading his journal where he described how much pain he was feeling--which was hardcore anger. Hmmm)

Lots of stuff to think about.

"I'm not trying to be a Harley basher here, but I see alot of people on this message board that need real psychological help, but are instead twisting the use of emotional needs and destroying parts of their social lives in order to make their relationships work."

Here's where we differ in our beliefs. My take is that I see posters urging others to get into good counseling, and by being there for others, they build trust, and many do get IC where I'm not sure they would have otherwise. There hasn't been a situation I've seen yet that doesn't promote MC at some point, and usually, right off the bat. I see that as a step away from IC.

I'm biased because of how much IC has helped me...and yes, I was agin' it, sir. I was. This board got us to MC, which split into IC and that's a wonderful way to get there, too. Destroying parts of their social lives? Oh, wait, you're young...you still have one. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I don't see anything here that destroys something in order to save something else. Harley directly stresses that sacrifice is detrimental to relationships. I think he means all of them.

LA

I'm drafting my next post in Word lol I've not abandoned you =)

See? This is what they say just before they do.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />