I didn't want to threadjack WOL's anymore, nor MCM's...and also - other people that CAN relate to you wont find you on WOL's thread - so started one of your own. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

First off - WELCOME!!!



I know that for WW's - coming here is hard - it takes so much courage to come and admit you have done something wrong...especially to a place of people who were wronged...and then to come and only get hit by 2x4's by many many people...The BS's - they mean well and most of what they are saying is the truth as much as you can't see it right now, you can't see it cause you wont let yourself. If you let yourself it will hurt - and you have been hurting enough - so your walls are up - and you aren't open to change - I am sure you will argue with me on that - but I have been there, dont that - wrote the book.

You will see that as unique and misunderstood as you feel your story is - there are 10 more of us FWW's that felt the same way and yet - we almost all have the same story, hurdles, problems and battles...



I know how this feels - but you are putting that problem on your husband...my husband upon leaving me 7 months into recovery, TOLD everyone he knew about mine. How's that for privacy. When we reconciled...I told him he had no right, that it shamed and embarassed me and it's so hard for me to be around people we know now - he apologized for telling everyone but also pointed out to me that the shame came from MY OWN actions...and had I not taken those actions, then there would have been nothing to tell.

He had a great point. And in giving it to God, I remember - I AM NOT THAT WOMAN anymore...that SHAME and EMBARASSMENT can't hold me. If someone asks - I say - oh - it's really none of your business - but I am doing great now, and smile my most confident smile.

You may be surpised that your BIL be very encouraging and supoprtive and not look at you with the letter A on your back like you think he is...

I know right now you are on your way out the door - that you feel you have done nothing wrong...

Ignore some of the other people's posts for now and right no read all the posts to the FWW's that post to you. hear them - read their stories.

Most of us too went on spiritual journeys with God in our recoveries....we can all help you with that too.

Welcome and hang in there - don't go away.

RLD, I would like to welcome you to MB as well. I am both a FWW and a BS. Stay with us and let us help you through this.

Thanks for the encouragement. WOL told me this was here, so I wanted to let you know I do appreciate it. I don't have a problem telling anyone I had an emotional affair. As a matter of fact, WOL made me tell our best friends within hours of Dday. I told my parents, sister, brother, 2 other good friends, our pastor, his wife. . . all within 48 hours. All of these were told in WOLs presence except my parents who have outside issues with WOL dating back almost 2 years. WOL told his family and numerous friends all within the first 2 days as well. So, it didn't take very long before most of our small town knew all about it. I have also told the children.

The info from the BIL was concerning our family business, and things he said about me personally that had nothing to do with my marriage. It was info that was shared between brothers that I had no need to know. My sister has said negative things about my husband before, but I would know not to repeat it to him because it would damage their relationship.

I am glad so many of you have drawn comfort from this board, and I appreciate the support you have all been for my husband. Our issues continue outside of any issues we have concerning the affair. For whatever reason, I am unable to make myself heard in this marriage. Actually, H refuses to listen when I talk. He admitted himself (Just this morning) that when he knows he is right, he will not take no for an answer from me. It reminds me of a child with his fingers in his ears saying "I"m NOT LISTENING!" I understand that he thinks he is right or he wouldn't be saying something, but he does not ALWAYS know what I want or what I need. I know ya'll do not like to hear this, but I am an adult with thoughts, needs and desires of my own. How can my husband meet my needs if he won't listen to what they are???

I have an extreme need to please everybody around me. It makes me a great target for people who want to use me or manipulate me. I agree that as women we should want to please our husbands and family, but there should be boundaries. We are not their slaves or bondservants. My need to please coupled with an extreme since of guilt about things - even things beyond my control - make me a target for others to use the old guilt trip on me. I am trying to practice not allowing others to manipulate me with guilt. Unfortunately, WOL has done that for 26 years, and he is having great difficulty learning to break that habit. I don't see how marriage builder principles have helped him in that area. I know ya'll have been telling him to meet my needs and/or listen to me, but he only chooses to do those things or listen to things that he wants to hear or do. I don't mean to be critical of MB, but that is just the facts in our relationship.


Anyway, I appreciate your concern. I really don't have anthing else to add or ask at this time. Thanks.

I could have written this post WORD for WORD a year ago - omg - you are married to my husband - my husband is still like that...

Can I EVER relate. I was virtually ignored, neglected - i did reach out for help - tried to talk to H so many times, each time shot down, or compltely ignored. My H would just roll his eyes and think there she goes again, or I was being unresonable so would block me out completely - the wall went up. I figured H would never change so my marriage was doomed. My H wont listen to my needs either - actually cause of our affairs - still wont. But I am happy and my needs are being met - hmmmmmm - interesting eh?

I also like you wanted to please please please and no one seemed to appreciate it - or do anything for me - it grew very tiring.

Have you read any books on co-dependency? Seriously - what you are describing is SO co-dependent like - and sadly it means your H isn't the problem - you are.

But the good thing is - changing you can fix so many of these problems!!!

I always thought I was a GREAT communicator - I talked well and alot and was very clear. When I had a problem with my H I brought it up - but he ignored me, or got mad at me...why should he - i brought it up - he should want to work on it with me. Here i was - keeping house for him, cooking meals, supporting him, encouraging him - but here he is - he wont even listen to one of my complaints, or advice....

eventually we got to the point where we weren't even having sex because I just didn't want him that way...and he would be resentful cause I would reject him.

It became a ONE UP cycle in our marriage. He told me after our d-days that he WAS acting like a child - she wont do for me - I wont do for her(that maddened me)

I learned to communicate different - it took alot of BOOK reading, and alot of prayer from God and I am STILL learning and changing... I fail all the time at it - but also am making so much progress.

I learned that as a codependent - the way I talked about things to my husband came accross to him as critism, nagging or just plain rude - while I thought I was bringing up my feelings, guiding him to try it a new way - I really wasn't. I never saw it until many people told me I needed to learn my husbands language. I had to learn to NOT want the last word in a fight...to learn NOT to defend myself to the bitter end - that it was OKAY for my H to have his perception, and he DIDNT HAVE to understand mine (I would pound my point of view into him so he would UNDERSTAND ME - cause i wanted to be UNDERSTOOD - guess what - he doesn't have to understand my POV for change to happen <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> )

And most of the time now - H listens to me - not cause he has changed, but because I HAVE, because I think about how and what I am going to say, the right time to say it...etc On bad days - when I am not thinking - things go BAD - we immediately fight, argue and its a bad day - but on days where I am good at communicating - things are great...and in return - he is loving, affectionate and OMG - he is even telling me I'm Sorry and Thank you for the up keep. This is a man who hasn't said sorry more than twice in 8 years!!!!!!!!!!

Another thing I learned is that the only person I need to please is God - i can SAY NO to other people - I dont need a clean house for people to love me....who cares if it's messy - if they dont like it - it's their problem - my house is full of warmth and converation now and that makes it home... I no longer try to do everything people ask me to do and have learned MY limitations. ANd with my husband too - but I have also learned that i need to give a little with my H to get a little.

This has been an INCREDIBLY painful, hard journey as it is looking at things about me I thought were good and realizing they are not so good...and changing those things - it means when someone critizes me - to not take it personally - but to also read into what they are saying and look at it from their point of view - is there something I could be doing differently.

It sounds like I am a whole different person doesn't it? But I am not. Those who know me well notice the big difference - I am FINALLY HAPPY, and they notice small changes - I am more patient, I listen better, I have more time for them...I am more appreciative...and ALL Those people give me so much in return too - it's amazing.

I challenge you RLD to really look at yourself and see where YOU have failed...and not look at WOL.

WOL can only change himself - you can't...BUT you can create change by changing the way YOU do things...because people around you will no longer REACT like they used to - they will react to what you set before them...so walls may stay down, things will get accomplished.

Even if you and WOL dont work things out - do you want your next relationship to fail too? Learn all you can about yourself and how to make relationships work.

If you are spiritual and with Christ - I recommend a GREAT book called 'The Self Confident Woman' by Janet Congo - this is a GREAT place to start.

Hello RLD,

I am glad you are here. Please listen to Dorry she is one of the very special people here and can help you alot. I thought I would second what she has said by pointing something out to you. You said
Actually, this site is designed for exactly the problem your H is having.

See the part I put in bold? You control this not him. First off I guess I ought to offer my standard lecture about the difference between guilt and remorse. Guilt is a feeling we get that is designed to STOP us from doing something we know is wrong or to cease doing something we know is wrong. IT is an emotion that is sort of designed to paralyze us. Remorse feels a lot like guilt, but it is designed to cause us to take action, to right a wrong, to help someone we hurt.

In the case of your A, you can see that guilt is NOT the emotion you should have...remorse is.

But, if you think about this a second further, you will realize your H should not be able to "guilt" you into doing anything. Especially when you have done nothing wrong. The fact that he has done this just shows that you have not established your boundaries and expectations clearly to him. Further, he has done it because it works.

I am not suggesting you two take up arm wrestling to sort out your issues and differences. I am suggesting that you sit down and really think about the things you value about yourself, the things that you hold to be true with regard to what you expect from other people and especially from someone that loves you and that you love.

When you make this list come here and let's talk about it. What has to happen is that WOL is going to have to figure out if "he would rather be right or be married." Sounds pretty sinister doesn't it? But in reality the issue is NOT about who is right, it is about care for the other spouse.

You can bet as he continues to post here he will be hearing about this. Life is a team sport and you two are a team whether either of you will admit it right now.

RLD have you done any reading of the articles here, especially about needs, the Policy of Joint Agreement, POJA, or radical honesty (which is very different from BRUTAL honesty), love busters, etc.? If not would you please, I think you will see that BOTH of you have some serious work to do.

It is time he did listen to you and value your thoughts, and yes he can learn to do this even at his advanced age <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> . Us old dogs can learn new tricks.

Next I would like to leave you with one of my favorite quotes because I would like you to think about it and if WOL reads this thread, him as well.
If you think about it Dorry is telling you this in a slightly different way. Figure out what you resent about your marriage and your H, and start to figure out why, and then we can help you with a plan to address it.

You will be surprised what you can accomplish and WOL will be surprised at what he can accomplish if he does the same thing. At this point it does NOT matter to me who was at fault for what, the idea is to work on the now and the future, and use the past to learn from. If nothing else you two NOW know what NOT to do. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Please continue to post here and I think you will find your perspective on things will begin to change, and as they do you will have ever increasing influence on your H's perspective. We do not expect either of you to change in any fundamental way, we do expect you both to change your perspective as you two address your issues.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

JL

Did I ever stop to mention how incredibly wise you are?

Some of that advice was good for me to read tonight.

This is oh so true RLD. I spent the first part of my marriage not being heard by my H and not getting my needs me in the way I thought they should be met. It has been a long journey of self discovery for me. Another poster on here named Bramble Rose really helped point out my co-dependency issues. She recommended some books to me. The best one is by Melody Beatty called Co-dependency No More I am finding that many of us FWWs have gotten quite a bit out of that book. Please read what Dorry and JL wrote to you. They are a couple of the wisest and kindest people here, especially to WW's.

Yeah, me too. Word for word.


Dorry,you nearly always give good advice, so I hope you can elaborate, because I'm puzzled! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> On the one hand, you "had to learn to NOT want the last word in a fight...to learn NOT to defend myself to the bitter end - that it was OKAY for my H to have his perception, and he DIDNT HAVE to understand mine..."

But now, "H listens to me - not cause he has changed, but because I HAVE..."

I guess my question is what adjustments did you make in your delivery that changed his response? You talked of "learning his language." In other places, including our MC, I've been urged to use "feelings" statements. But I get one of two responses: (1) Either my idea is ignored/immediately shot down, or (2) H tells me my feelings are unjustified.

It happened as recently as last night. I had an idea for a weekend away that was basically dismissed outright. His response was so negative that it wasn't worth me trying to pursue the idea, as I would then be accused of trying to start an argument.

I feel like I'm spinning my wheels. Did I ever tell ya that I hate stationary bikes? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Feeling statements only worked with my H if I was careful on HOW I stated it.

I used to say I feel sad because you did....or you said...those words YOU DID or you SAID put up his wall - this is DEFINATLY an area where we still hit and miss - but it is like 80% better due to the fact i approach him different. But it's not easy and as I said it's hit and miss - it would be so much easier if H had to acknowledge my feelings <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> BUT since he wont go to IC...and since he wont look at mB anymore I am on my own...but most men over time will follow the leader....so I am being the leader and being patient.

I have to really think about how I am going to say something...

One thing that seems to work with my H is letting things be his idea. (sheesh I hope he isn't reading this LOL)

If it's my feeling - I will say - I am feeling really hurt. He may ask why - and I will respond. Those words hurt (notice how I didn't say what YOU said hurt me). I keep it general.

Now half of the time he does get in a huff depending on his mood and how calmly I stated it - the more emotional I am - the less effect I have on him - Emotions put up his wall. but I leave it at that.

The first attempts at this failed as he had a habit of putting up a wall before I even tried, but after enough - he realized I don't act like I used to and seems to be more receptive - I am VERY careful to phrase things so they come accross as ME and MY feelings and not critism to him. My expression of feelings came across as a constant bombardment of what he does wrong...and after my affair - he still to this day feels like a failure - a failure as a husband, a failure in recovery....so one critique on what he is doing wrong (my feelings) sets him off...

For a weekend idea, I would go to husband and say - hey - do you have any great ideas for a weekend away - I would LOVE to get away - just me and you...then as the conversation progresses - drop hints, look at websites together - let it become his idea <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> It ends up being a better idea with him in it.

If that doesn't work - something I am working on is my assumption he will always say no. A good friend on here told me that my H is so used to opposing me and saying no - I need to STOP giving him a choice.

For example we rarely go out. I really wanted to get out - time for him and me - supper perhaps - but he said no everytime - babysitter costs to much, etc ,etc

She told me DONT take no - get the babysitter, be out at the restaurent, call him at work and say - meet me there....she said trust me - he will go. I told her no, he would leave me stranded (my fear of rejection).

So I tried it one night - we had parent teacher interviews. He was going to come home and we were going to at 7pm. I had a sitter for 7, but booked her for 5:30. I called my H and said - we already have a sitter, and we need to eat - so i booked us a reservation at the Sushi place- meet me there after work. I did this pleasant...and totally expected a - well I just want to come home (which I wasn't sure how I would have handled)...but he said sure - see you there. I was SHOCKED!!! This wasn't my H! lol.

I have done this a few times now and it has worked. When he says no - I am very playful, like awww comeon, flirty.

It took me really getting to know my husband and how he feels - JL has been a BIG insight into how men think and what slow learners they can be - and I have used that too to help me into my H's mind. I have learned that why his JOB is so important to him is because he learned to express LOVE for his family by providing for them...it is how he shows love...I had to learn to accept that is a form of love from him...I had to learn SO much about his behaviors.

I don't understand them completely, but I have enough insight now to change how I behave with him, and his reactions to my behaviors are WONDERFUL! he is changing without making any effort. Well - I am sure he MAY be making some effort - I can't assume he is not...but the changes are slow for him.

So my question is - how well do you REALLY know your husband...or do you know your husband based on brick walls and assumptions - why does he put up the wall? And how can you work around that wall?

Do letters work better?

OH I forgot to add - when H DOES put up the wall and get mad - my H get cruel - I used to then argue with him.

Here is an example of a recent fight that in the end worked out surprisingly (he apologized which he has only done 2 times in the 8 years together!!!)

He lost his wallet and was storming around yelling, he yelled at me as if it was my fault - he was downright rude. I looked at him and I said very calmly and quietly.

Me: I did not lose your wallet honey, so please take your anger elsewhere. I will be happy to keep helping you look for it.

Him: I never said you lost my wallet - and I never said it that way - dont take things so personal.

Me: You did say it with a tone that insuiated this was my fault - I want to keep helping you find it.

Him: Everything is about you - why don't you go complain about me more to MB. Swear swear swear, where's the swearing cell phone. Stomp stomp stomo

Me: (old me would have kept arguing about the MB thing)New me says: I say nothing, but spot the cell phone.

me: (in a calm, pleasant voice) Honey - Here is your cell phone.

Him: (rips the cellphone from my hand and storms off to work)

Me after he leaves - SCREAM AND CRY!!! lol

5 min later, as usual - he calls me and acts like nothing happened. I don't bring it up - I let it go...

when he gets home 3 hours later...he surprisly takes my hand, looks at me and kisses me and says that is for earlier - i am sorry - the wallet wasn't your fault and I shouldn't have yelled at you.

WHAT!!! MY H APOLOGIZED!!! This has been happening more - why? maybe a bit of him - but alot of me - I dont keep trying to win my fights - do I NEED to tell him ALL I am feeling? DO I need him to understand??? Nope. I can express my feelings very quickly without critizing him...and leave it - he has a right to his opinion (even if it's wrong) and I don't have to make him think MY POV is right...we can both have our own POV. It makes areguing with him easier - as there is less to argue about, then less people are hurt, and hardly any walls are put up.

I know I rambled and rambled and alot of this may not make sense LOL I am not as well spoken as some people - I just advise off my own experiences....

Basically - dont make assumptions, make decisions, "catch" your H doing good with you - compliment him on the LITTLEST things he says or does for you, stay away from anything he does wrong, learn who HE is - how he shows you love, how he reacts to different moods of yours, and learn how to bring things up in the right moods, learn how to work with him. You will find the whole relationship changes.

At first it's hard work...but it gets easier as it all becomes habit....somethings are still hard for me (fear of rejection) somethings now after months and months are easy - it's just how I deal with my H and other people - and do i feel burdened? No - I feel happier as now people treat me the way I want them to - a chain reaction <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Okay, I'm wiping the computer screen of the Diet Coke I just spewed on it! You have no idea how true that is at our house!


My H would say, "Hey, we ought to see if (couple one) and (couple two) want to join us." The two of us? Alone?


Oh yeah, if I can get past that point and actually get him to look at potential places to stay, etc., it might work.


Understatement of the year in my world... LOL


I'm the poster child for making assumptions... ask my IC. Comes from childhood stuff. It really does come down to making things his idea, though. Sometimes it almost seems like manipulation, but really it's just strategy, right? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I remember miss Pep posting something on manipulation - and that the form of manipulation we all think of is bad - there is some good manipulation - albeit we dont call it manipulation.

This is changes that are better for you - and they dont always work - but while you are working around H and trying new things, your actually improving YOU, and your communication skills, and it effects ALL your relationships - not just your H's <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

^bump

Dorry and other FWWs...

Go to DazedConfusedks thread. His wife is asking to speak to a FWW. Maybe one of you can email and talk with her.

In His arms.

^^^BUMP^^^

I just wanted to say that I have been on MB before, a couple of times, mostly lurking last year. I wish I had stayed on MB and learned more from you guys. Maybe if I had done that I would have learned more about my H, and myself. I want to thank you FWW for all your help. I have learned more in the last two weeks from you guys than I have in the last two years from anyone else, it's just to late now to applied what I have learned to my marriage. Thank you anyway, you are a blessing and I hope that and pray that all of you make it.

Dorry, t/j for a moment. Can you read Foundareason's thread. There may be a glimmer of hope still for him. Thanks.

Hey RLD

Just bumping this post <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> So we dont tie up your husbands thread.

These aren't questions that are meant to offend...just questions as one wife to another...

Have you read Mortanmans' thread on the roles of husband and wives?

DO you know what you want out of a husband?

Do you know what you want out of life?

Have you ever really learned why your husband may act or do the things he does, and truly understand them?

The reason I ask - is I have a husband who doesn't do much for me UNLESS I am doing for him. And not EN things. After my affair, I learned to understand who he is and accept him for how he is.

I too settled for less attention, coming 2nd, etc, etc...but i have found in changing ME and learning why my husband does what he does and TRULY accepting him that way and learning why he does things that way, and working with them - all of a sudden I am comming first!

I was sick this weekend, and he gave me a weekend to myself. In 8 years I have never had that. He picked out a game I would enjoy...but you see I no longer nag him about working late, instead I sypathize and tell him how much I appreciate how hard he works for us (even if I am bothered he missed supper). Why? I learned his work is a way he shows his love and protects his family - and me nagging him or getting mad at him over his ours was directly telling him he isn't good enough...

Why do you have to be the one to make these changes - you don't...but read Mortarman's thread...it talks alot about how a woman and a man work in a marriage from a biblical standpoint...and it's alot along the lines of where I am headed.

there is a phrase here - do you want to be right, or do you want to be married/happy...it sounds really odd...as we all are right...but it's learning that your husband is right too...and that's okay...and that not having to agree and accepting the differences can actually bring the happiness you long for.

bump

Dorry, The best way I can answer your question is by saying that I no longer know who I am or what I want. No, I don't know what I want in a husband. I don't know how to be the wife that WOL needs either. I've spent 20 years trying to be the "perfect" wife and mother. I know that is not possible, and it has almost physically killed me.

I read BigKahuna's post concerning SF on WOLs thread. I can't even imagine just having sex for the sake of having sex. To me, that is just not possible. I think that is wonderful that his wife was willing to do that, but I don't see that as being an option for me. She obviously is a bigger person than I am. (not whining, just being honest)

Do any of you all ever get tired of working SO hard for a relationship that you are supposed to be enjoying??? Just thought I would throw that out there for someone to answer.