DRD-

I'm not exactly sure how to say this.....so I'm just gonna say it.

I know that you're here because you want to save your marriage, but everything you post seems so cut and dry....devoid of emotion, maybe I'm wrong.....are you on an anti-depressant? You seem to be on an EXTREMELY even keel all the time.

Are the needs that you're trying to meet needs that she told you weren't being met, or are you guessing???

You know exact dates and times and things like that.....you seem to be approaching this almost mechanically.....really black and white.

Maybe it's just the way you come across on paper but I'd be willing to bet that a little spontaneity would go a long way with your wife.

Okay.....I don't even know if that made any sense...but that's the impression I'm getting.

God Bless,

-Caren

P.S.- by the way, Plan A is meeting the WS's emotional needs in spite of what they are doing/saying. Even if they are resistant to your efforts.....it IS getting through, that's why she's all indecisive, she can't give you up completely because you're meeting some of her needs....the trick is to meet them BIGGER and BETTER than the OM <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Also, on a side note.....I have no idea how much you weigh by what you posted......we Americans don't do the metric system LOL!!!

Thanks Caren,

I have been unemotional (to some degree) and my wife does find this very difficult. She accuses me of not having "passion" for her, though this is completely untrue. Nevertheless, I accept that I have not shown it in a way she can see it clearly.

Certainly my emotions are deep and often difficult to see, and I am not good at expressing them. This behaviour has been hardened by her bad responses to me saying things about how I feel in the past, which caused me to bury the things I truly think (and then probably be resentful and partially withdraw from her on that front - which then makes the apparent "lack of emotion" stronger).

However, since the affair, over the past few weeks, I have been in tears with her and my emotional state has been such that I have cried over something only slightly emotional on the TV.

I'm not on any anti-Ds, but do tend to stay on a fairly even keel. However, despite how this sounds, I am depressed, am paranoid (about my wife's behaviour and movements mainly, following the affair), and have done stupid things because of this. I feel that that is being emotional, though I probably do still project a harder surface than many.

I am cut up and wounded inside. And every time I snoop / check and find that contact has occurred again it is like another thrust of a knife into an already ragged wound. However, I prefer to know what is happen than be ignorant of it and potentially accept the lies as a result.

The stuff I say in clear / B&W terms is often because I have determined it carefully by snooping, and therefore know the truth in fairly clear terms. I have also been keeping a diary of events some days - just to keep things and dates clear in my mind.

Perhaps a problem (and certainly one of the problems I face in connecting with my wife) is that I find it very hard to communicate in an "emotional" way. I do feel more comfortable talking about facts.

Spontaneity is good, but arranging things in that fashion often does not go down well with my wife. She's fine with me spontaneously bringing her flowers (which I have started to do a lot more of) but would complain if I spontaneously booked a trip away, or arranged a visit to friends, etc.

What kind of spontaneity did you have in mind?

Re: weight. I thought Americans generally used Imperial measures. I gave my weight as 12 stones and 12 ounces reducing recently to 12:4 (an 8 ounce loss). I thought Stones and ounces were imperial measures, like miles and gallons. 12 st 4 oz is about 78 Kg if that's the unit you're more used to, though I thought that was a metric measure! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

In the UK, metric measures (Kilos) are now more common, but for body weight many people still use stones and ounces, for distance most people still use miles, and for fuel economy we use miles per gallon. However, Petrol (Gas) is now sold by the litre. We're an odd bunch, aren't we? :-)

DRD

DRD,

We use Pounds as in I weigh 190 pounds.

I've been called Stoic many of times in my life and I know exactly how you feel with all these emotions washing over and right through you. All I can say is this is your life...can't change it...accept uncertainty and learn what you can about the experience. It doesn't hurt to just allow yourself to "feel" and you get to make an analytical anaysis of the experience later.

Tax Lawyers (Me) and Engineers (You)...we are a strange lot.

Mr. Wondering

Hi Mr W,

I realised I made a mistake - I wrote ounces instead of pounds. There are 14 pounds in a stone and 16 ounces in a pound. So by saying I'm 12 stone 4 pounds I mean that I'm 172 pounds. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

My emotions are very strong at the moment - I know what you mean about letting them wash over you though.

DRD

Oh - and an update of today, she has gotten her affair phone back again - I think she got it yesterday (I believe she saw OM yesterday lunch / afternoon).

Anyway, this makes me quite depressed again, as I'm sure you can all imagine.

DRD

DRD,

I have forgotten, but it seems to me that proper people need to know the affair is on again (as if it ever stopped). OM needs to be out of the church and your W's choir needs to know what is going on.

You have little to lose and a lot to gain.

God Bless,

JL

DRD-

I thought you were probably an engineer, or something close....very analytical.

I guess just keep working on it, as weird as it seems, most women want our husbands to be a little jealous (Not beating people up) but protective, ya know?

I'm sorry about the affair phone...I'm afraid I'd have to take that away from her and stomp it into dust!

Good Luck and God Bless,

-Caren

Hi JL,

Note that OM is not in *our* church. I have spoken with his vicar again this week and vicar is meeting with church wardens and an archdeacon next week. He's likely to lose his church director of music job as a result.

Vicar confirmed that OM is manipulative and good at making people feel responsible and guilty for things that he is actually fully in control of. Vicar is willing to speak directly to my W about this (but I am not sure if there are are benefits as yet).

W.r.t. the choir, I have not exposed there as yet. This is tricky as my wife has already stopped going (out of respect for my feelings apparently) and OM is also in some trouble there as the other committee members are unhappy about the way he treats the choir (things like not being allowed to talk, according to my W). The secretary has called for an "extraordinary committee meeting" to discuss the issues, and of course my W was invited (she is the treasurer). Of course, she is conflicted because of her rel with OM and does not think she can attend as a result!

This is amusing (as well as being sad) because when I confronted OM directly, I told him (and later my W) that he was being unprofessional, as my W is effectively one of his employers. Both he and my W disagreed (of course). Now this unprofessionalism is becoming more obvious because my wife (who is on the committee) is now unable to act impartially!

I have considered telling the choir people, but it is not a church choir, so there is not a moral imperitive involved. I am weighing up the issue of whether to say anything to them, but it will be a big LB if I do (my W may feel she can never go back there again) and it looks like the choir may sack him without my involvement. In additon, my W may now be realising the issues of him being unprofessional, and this will be more obvious to her if she is also having to lie to the other committee members about her rel with OM.

Anyway, I have not given up on this option as yet.

DRD

Hi Caren,

Indeed - I hope I have been demonstrating this in this situation by confronting her and him, by exposing to his vicar, to our friends, to family, etc. By fighting to keep her love.

It is something she's accused me of lacking in the past. For example: There was one time she told me she found someone attractive. However, she said that she only loved me and was telling me so that it would not go any further. I said I really appreciated her and that I loved her more for telling me, and that I also wanted to ensure our relationship grew. But I did not act jealous. In this recent situation, she brought that up and said it demonstrated that I didn't have a "passion" for her.

I later said that, had I thought she was seriously tempted, she would have seen the passion, but that given that she did not say she loved that person, I did not (at the time) need to feel jealous.

BIG MISTAKE IN HINDSIGHT!!! I would act differently now.



I have considered it, and could do so. I did take away the first phone he gave her (and it did cause some consternation, though she never asked me about that!). In any case, he simply bought her another one.

The disadvantage of taking the phone is twofold:
[*] I give away the fact that I know about it, making it more likely she'll simply hide the next one better.
[*] I cannot then sneak a look to see how much they've been talking - so I have no independent verification of whether and how much she's contacting him.

If anyone has better suggestions on dealing with this one, please let me know!

Cheers,
DRD

Email bigkahuna in Australia...get his phone number and call it on the Secret Cell phone...rack up 100 minutes of international call times during peak hours. OM will get a surprise bill in about a month and WW will just presume it must have accidentallly dialed and hit send in her purse on day. Bigkahuna and you can arrange be email to just leave the line open for an hour or more.

By the way, I presume you make or will potentially make significantly more money than OM. I am not suggesting you attempt to "buy" her love but I can only guess that OM is insecure about your intelligence, degrees and money. I know your situation differs cause your wife makes good money too...but it is OM's insecurities that can be attacked. Losing that job will also have an impact on his psyche along with racked up cell phone bills...lol.

All is fair in love and war.

Mr. Wondering

Thanks MrW, that's a nice idea! [Phoning Australia]

I will check if I can, but I believe the affair phone is a "pay as you go". If so it is impossible to rack up more calls than the pre-paid credit you have put in. Nonetheless, using up all the currently available credit could certainly put a temporary spanner in the works. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

You're right about me making more money than OM - he's a pauper by comparison - losing his job will be a real problem for him. I don't want to be vengeful to him (I still believe in Christian morals, which tell me to love my enemy!) but on the other hand anything that might break his relationship with my wife is fair.

Unfortuately my W considers him to be her "soul mate" mainly because he is musical - far more than I can ever be - and has "empathised" with her marital difficulties . It is a "romantic" (unreal / fantasy) notion that these things would be enough to sustain them in a longer term relationship.

She sees me as less emotional and romantic and lacking in passion. None of this is true, I just don't express it to her in the way she has wanted - and she also rubs me up the wrong way a lot of the time. The only question is whether I can show her (though Plan A changes, or ultimately Plan B) that I am not the limited person she sometimes thinks I am and that I can meet her needs.

Anyway, it's nearly bedtime in the UK, assuming I can sleep.

Cheers,
DRD

BigK,

I don't know if you saw the above post from Mr W, but I find I can't send you a private message for some reason.

Could you contact me if possible. I'd like to try to implement Mr W's plan - at least in part!

Cheers,
DRD

DRD-

I sent up a flare to BigKahuna <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

God Bless,

-Caren

P.S. You can't send private messages from this board.

Thanks Caren, I appreciate it.

I will also send you a private email to your yahoo mailbox to forward to BigK if you are willing.

However, my work email address (which is where I will send it from) is not always 100% secure from my WW, so please be slightly careful with responses.

It seems odd that the facility for private messages would apparently exist in the "my home" section of the site, but be disabled in practice. I had one from the board moderator, so perhaps it's only enabled for moderator messages (perhaps it takes too much processing / memory).

Cheers,
DRD

DRD-

It's disabled due to the nature of the site. We are all here to repair our marriages, so it wouldn't do for people who are low in the love bank department talking to people of the opposite sex, possibly having their needs met....then this site would be the problem rather than the cure <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I didn't know Mods could do it, but that makes sense.

God Bless,

Caren

P.S. I actually don't know BigK's e-mail.......I just put up a post with a link for him to look at this post.

Hi DRD,

Been away from the board for a day.

Seems like a fun idea of Mr W.

Email me on williams at smartchat dot net dot au

I am also listed on the affair busters network http://www.abunetwork.com/ if you can't work out that email address.

Thanks BigK - it's on the way.

DRD

Ah - that makes some sense Caren.

Personally, I don't think I would be susceptable to that as I don't think an online relationship would do anything for me - but I guess it's becoming a more common problem in today's age. :-)

The private message to me was only a welcome - but it shows it can be done.

DRD

Story Update...

We had a big row last night about very little (the use of certain grammar) and she stormed off to her flat. Big LB I thought.

I apologised by text message and, after getting a reply, called her. She ended up coming back home and we both apologised to each other.

This morning I had coffee with her and went with her to a dental appt. Then we had a joint counselling session.

This evening was good. She went off to her flat, but then rang me and said did I mind if she came back - but would understand if I didn't want her to (because of the vacillation between going and staying). I said of course I wanted her home. She came back a little later and has decided to sleep here tonight.

After she came home, we had a very good chat during which she told me about her personal counselling session last Friday. She told me how she felt very lonely as a child (she was a late 3rd child and had few good friends) and this feeling has passed into our marriage. It seems I have reinforced this because I have not spent sufficient time with her in the past (for example by not prioritising her during the week or when we have a family holiday).

I was very upset with having done this, and cried and apologised. She is scared that, if she does give our marriage a chance, she will go back to being lonely, as she feels I won't change. However, she is also scared of leaving me as she knows there is little future with OM and doesn't want to be left with no-one.

She decided to stay here tonight and allowed me to cuddle her and tuck her into bed.

Note: I bought SAA from Amazon (it came yesterday and I finished it this afternoon). I told WW I thought she might want to read it too. She said she probably would, so I gave it to her this evening. I hope she will read it and take in some of what it says. One of the stories in it is very like ours!

I told her that, if she was agreeable, I would like to implement the plans in SAA, particularly scheduling plenty of quality time together with her. I said I never want her to feel lonely again.

Anyway, I hope this is a step in the direction of recovery, and I will continue with plan A.

Thanks to all of you for continued assistance.

Cheers,
DRD

Hi DRD,

Got your email. Do you think you can get an email your wife can't snoop on - like a free Hotmail or Yahoo one? I am in Australia which is currently in a time zone of GMT +11hrs - so it would be good to be able to contact you at a more sane time for me. If your email isn't secure, one that is will enable me to help you.