I would appreciate anyone's thoughts or suggestions on this one. I will try to make this drama as brief as possible! I am a member (and student in seminary) of a small town United Church of Christ church. Three years ago, we got a new full-time minister, John. He and his wife of 19 years, Kathy, have a 13 year old son. Many of us in the church are long-time members, friends, and in the Baby Boomer bracket, as are John and Kathy. Occasionally when several of us and our spouses would have a party or celebration, John & Kathy would be invited. I'd made friends with Kathy, as a handful of other church women did. She occasionally made observations about how sexy and good-looking the brother (Luke) of the church secretary was. She conveniently became her best friend. Luke is the owner of a dairy and produce farm and is a very prominent town resident. Kathy began hanging out at the farm daily (she'd grown up on one herself), spending time talking with Luke, and soon they became very close friends, jogging, bike-riding together etc. Luke has been married for 26 years to Janet, who does not involve herself with church, and is very quiet and emotionally distant. She and Luke had a son 9 years ago and she devotes all of her spare time to him. Their son is her whole life. Those of us who know Luke, know that he has been very lonely and needy for a number of years. The demands of the farm keep him busy during growing & harvesting seasons, and when there are calves born, his demands are greater He had the opportunity a few years ago to get involved with someone in town but smartly turned away. Kathy came along, picked up on his lonliness and shared her own complaints with Luke about John's hours at the church. Last May, a few parishioners who attended a dinner/dance fundraiser witnessed Luke and Kathy holding each other in a long embrace with their eyes closed after John left to bring the car around. Since then, others have seen them together. I learned, through an old mutual high school friend, that Luke is hopelessly in love with Kathy, thinks she's the best thing that ever happened to him, and meets her several days a week at various secret places. I also learned, through a church regional conference minister, that John had had similar problems with Kathy at their former church, which Luke is unaware of. Shortly after the fundraiser, someone spoke to John about his wife, but he excused her behavior, saying she was a "beautiful, warm, and affectionate" woman, and "everybody lovers her." However he said he'd asked her not to go jogging with Luke.
I've known Luke nearly all my life. We've been friends for years. We grew up together, attended this church & youth group together, & we graduated from the same class. He's always been a very caring but shy person. I'm not justifying what he's doing, but it seems as though his agenda for involvement was far different than Kathy's. She was relentless and calculating in her pursuit of Luke, and flirted so overtly that it was obvious she cared nothing for the boundaries that go with being the spouse of a minister. It's also a little sick that she would have an affair with someone in her husband's congregation, which was the previous problem, from what I understand.
The affair is still going on and people in the town are starting to talk. Luke won't be the only one deeply hurt. have thought about discussing it with them, but it would be like punishing our pastor, who doesn't deserve it. Interestingly, Luke and Kathy think no one is aware of their affair. I fear an ugly mess will result from this and our church members will lose confidence in their pastor as a leader and counselor because of his inability to confront this problem. Does anyone think the minister is actually unaware of his wife's affair with Luke? Should a few of us in the congregation meet with the area conference minister? No one wants to confront Kathy or Luke. I welcome anyone's views and/or advise.
Thanks! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> waterfalls02333@yahoo.com

Expose. The pastor is aware his wife wanders. That's the reason for his excuses.

If Luke is your friend, talk with him but don't waste words on the OW. She is calculating and mean.

Tell Luke he needs to seek help. Give him Steve's # @ MB. give him the 2 books: Surviving an Affair and His needs/Her needs. The 1st is for him so he can see himself, the 2nd is for him and his W.

L.

Yep. Shine the light of day on all of it. God will sort it out. Send Luke to MB, and offer it to all involved. DO NOT - DO NOT - offer Luke your shoulder or any private communication.

If your pastor is willing to turn a blind eye to his wife's affair, then he is not worthy of being the shepherd of your flock. Imagine the advice he may give to someone else in that situation - then imagine how much credibility is in his advice.

If he confronts it head on, and sets a good example - then he may possibly be a candidate for such a job. But if this is a pattern - what comes to mind is churches covering up issues with priests, etc. (not knocking my bead carrying brothers and sisters! just using poor leadership as an example.)

Just my .02 worth. Might be all it is worth.

far

Hmm. Can I just urge a little caution here. Orchid - the evidence of the pastor knowing his wife is wayward is HEARSAY that's all.

You need HARD EVIDENCE before you destroy a marriage & a career. You must have evidence. Not just guessing. Don't do this lightly until there is absolutely no doubt.

Then expose away. Blow the dirty little secret out of the water. But be absolutely sure of your ground.

I would also be letting the eldership in the church deal with it as discretely as possible once there is no reasonable doubt.

[color:"blue"]"I also learned, through a church regional conference minister, that John had had similar problems with Kathy at their former church, which Luke is unaware of. Shortly after the fundraiser, someone spoke to John about his wife, but he excused her behavior, saying she was a "beautiful, warm, and affectionate" woman, and "everybody lovers her." However he said he'd asked her not to go jogging with Luke." [/color]

This kind of stuff is usually hearsay. What other kind of say is there? If he is excusing her behavior, you gotta wonder what kind of counselor he c/b. Double standards? Where's the trust.

This goes deeper than the A. It creates an environment where his very 'profession' c/b in jeporady.

Of course it is better to have hard evidence. Think the WS and OW w/b willing to cough it up? Probably not. Like most WS' and OPs fooling the masses is their pleasurable pasttime. Maybe Luke is the victim but he is also the accessory and who is spearheading this? The pastor's W? Hm..... Her power alone puts her in a dangerous position. People may out of fear/respect of his position be used to enalbe the A.

Exposure in this case, doesn't have t/b a direct accusation. It c/b bringing questions up to the pastor and the WS's W and let them go find the truth.

JMHO,
L.

Don't get me wrong Orchid - I am a rabid fan of exposure and ending affairs - my posts here bear that out. It just needs to be done properly by tipping off spouses and also elders in the church. Now, of course, if they are condoning it - well that's another matter entirely.

Well I'm not foaming at the mouth for the exposure, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> so I agree it needs to be done with care. That's why posing the question rather than direct accusation w/b a safer route.

L.

Exposure only needs to start with the minister. He should be informed of what you personally know and nothing that you have not personally witnessed.

If someone has been talking to you about Luke and Kathy, you need to be very clear that you do not want to hear anything about it. If they tell you, then it is gossiping. You really don't want to be part of that. You need to tell them, that they need to tell the minister exactly what they have witnessed and only what they have witnessed. If they do not want to tell the minister, then really all they care about is the gossip.

The gossiping will be devastating to your church if left unchecked and unverified by the minister. The enemy isn't a fool. If he can't get the minister through infidelity, he'll get him with the gossip. Pray for him and have the other faithful do the same. He really needs it right now.

If he is unwilling to do anything about it, then the elders need to step in and deal with it. Hard to say if Kathy will listen to her H. But the elders have every right to step in and tell Kathy that at the very least, her actions are questionable and seem improper.

Hope that helps a little.

Blessing to you. Praying for your minister.

S&C

If you want to do it according to the Bible, then a person with knowledge of the affair who knows the parties envolved goes to them in private to confront their sin. If they are unwilling to stop their sin, then they return with more witnesses, and if they are unwilling to listen to the witnesses, it's taken to the church.

In other words you try to handle things somewhat privately in a church so as not to create to much gossip and hurt the belief and faith of others.

James 3:3-8 says, "When we put bits into the mouths of horses to make them obey us, we can turn the whole animal. Or take ships as an example. Although they are so large and are driven by strong winds, they are steered by a very small rudder wherever the pilot wants to go. Likewise the tongue is a small part of the body, but it makes great boasts. Consider what a great forest is set on fire by a small spark. The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole person, sets the whole course of his life on fire, and is itself set on fire by he77. All kinds of animals, birds, reptiles and creatures of the sea are being tamed and have been tamed by man, but no man can tame the tongue. It is a restless evil, full of deadly poison."

Baloney.

Somebody already tried the "proper" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> mamby pamby approach and the minister is in denial.

Spill the beans. There's already some rolling around the floor. If this is all an exaggeration, no marriages or careers will be destroyed - they'll just get moved to another church and start the process all over.


Duh, Hello?? What about Luke's wife? Forget about her?

Don't shed those crocodile tears for the minister his slut of a wife OR Luke before you do so for Luke's wife!!

Sheese.

Why should exposure in a church be treated differently than exposure anywhere else?

To save embarassment?

Hello again???

My hypocrisy meter is bouncing off the table!!

WAT

Expose Expose Expose! Even the perception of wrong doing needs to be addressed and exposure is the only way!

I agree that the parties need to be confronted, as indicated in the bible, however, their victims need to be notified first so they can protect themselves frm the infidels. The pastor and Luke's wife need to notified before confrontation so that the affairees do not have chance to develop a lie to deceive their spouses.

THEN, the spouses can approach them and give them opportunity to come clean and stop the wrongdoing. If not, then exposure to church is in order. It needs to be done in a way that precludes the affairees from getting away with it.

The pastor also needs to know the truth about what happened at the last church. Too bad no one there had the decency to tell him the truth then. He might not be in this mess now.

But do tell, and do it now. It is an act of love that your pastor and Mrs. Luke will greatly appreciate, if not now, then in the future.

You cannot "assume" he knows. We have all walked in his shoes and know how desperately we want to believe that our spouse would never do this to us, even when there are signs. I imagine if this has happened before, his wife has made all sorts of promises about how it would NEVER happen again. The stakes are much higher for him as he and his wife are supposed to set the moral standards for the community. For his own emotional safety he is probably counting on her word right now. He may be making excuses for her, but it may not be for the reasons you think.

A lot of affair partners ARE relentless and calculating in their pursuit. And boundaries are merely challenges for them. I suspect Luke is nothing but an emotional toy for her. I suspect Luke probably thinks this was "meant to be". His life will be completely devastated and flattened when this hits the fan. It is pure evil.

I agree with Melody. Exposure begins with the two betrayed spouses before anything can be diluted by gossip or lies. My guess is that the original approach to the minister was vague in order to spare his feelings....be clear about what you know is going on....not just the fact that folks are talking about the "apparent" inpropriety of their relationship but that secret liasons are ongoing and knowledge of the affair is widespread. If neither spouse follows through....then exposure to the elders of the church would be the next step because as others have said....this is not a situation that creates stability or leadership in the congregation.

If Luke is your friend....help him reinvest in his marriage. This could be devastating for the 13 year old who will certainly understand what is going on.

Good luck

endurs4ever - the first thing I feel compelled to do is to warn you that the ADVICE you should be seeking and/or listening to is CHRISTIAN advice from believers. You may or may not know who people are who are advising you so be very careful in what appeals to your "human nature." You HAVE already received advice on this thread from unbelievers, and need to be very cautious and discerning in what is applicable from a Christian perspect and what appeals from a secular standpoint.

This IS a matter for the church and for those involved in the affair. The guideline for proceeding IS detailed in Matthew 18:15-20. I would strongly suggest, if you have not already, that you read Jesus' instruction in this passage.

Let me be perfectly clear that Adultery and sin, left uncontested and "accepted" in the congregation WILL destroy the ministry. Sin is to be REPENTED of, not condoned or tolerated. That includes the sin of gossip.

Furthermore, all "feelings aside," if Luke and Kathy think that Adultery is "okay" with God, they really need to be brought face to face with Scripture and let GOD talk directly to them in no uncertain or waffling terms.

"Do you NOT know that the wicked will NOT inherit the kingdom of God? Do NOT be deceived: NEITHER the sexually immoral NOR idolaters NOR adulterers NOR male prostitutes NOR homosexual offenders NOR thieves NOR the greedy NOR drunkards NOR slanderers NOR swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you WERE. (1 Cor 6:9-11a NIV, emphasis added)


While going through the necessary "confrontation of sin" steps that are required (in love and concern for a brother and sister in Christ who have 'strayed from the sheep pen'), as outlined in Matthew, PLEASE do not lose sight of the fact that the Pastor is also a MAN and is a "betrayed." HIS emotional onslaught will be tremendous because he will feel the added burden of being a shepard of the flock. Remember, HE is the shepard, not his sinning wife, in the same way that Hosea was God's prophet and Gomer was "less than a stellar example of 'wifedom.' The elders of your church will likely need to come around him and support him emotionally during this crisis.

May God grant you wisdom and loving compassion for all involved and for the congregation, in STANDING for God and for humble submission to God's will and not "human feelings."

God bless.

FH, Matthew 18:15-17 says:


This scripture is targeted to those who have been sinned against, ie: the victim. This is why I think it is important that the victims be notified FIRST, so that they themselves can then confront the sin privately and then expose further if necessary. Would you agree that is the manner outlined in the Bible?

I think to do otherwise - leaving the victims out of the equation - only enables the sin to thrive because it gives the affairees an opportunity to lie and spin their way of it, leaving a deficit of truth.

FH - unfrickin' believable!

Wait a minute!!

Hello!!!!!

This is a Christian church, FH!!! Seems that so far, all the "good" advice that should already be present DIDN'T WORK!

Didn't prevent an affair, didn't end an affair, and just shuffled a known problem off to another location!

My, my, my.

Had to take the batteries out of my hypocrisy meter - it wouldn't turn off.

BTW, Please point out what advice I may have given that was erroneous.

And, what exactly is "Christian" advice? While you're at it, please describe "un-Christian" advice. Kill the OP?

WAT

endures4ever - as I said, stick with Christian advisors as the "seculars" deny Christ, let alone godly advice for those who are dealing with sin.

WAT - not interested in your opinion or discussing anything with you. You've proven it's pointless and that you view everything from a strictly secular position. For the record, I cautioned endures4ever, I did NOT attack you, or even name you.
But YOU can't pass up any opportunity to attack Christianity or my advocacy for obedience to God. I am not surprised.

Yes, Mel, that is the way that I think it should be done.

But keep in mind also that this situation is rapidly spinning out of control due to the denial of the Pastor and the complicity of the people involved in the adultery. The CHURCH is being affected and it needs to be confronted, in love and concern, by the ELDERS (or whatever that particular church calls those of like office) of the church to keep the circle of knowledge as small as possible IF there is a repentance. But keep in mind that "juicy gossip" is "raw meat" for a lot of people, both in and out of the church. This whole situation is destructive to all that are involved, and it sounds as if the "partners in crime" are lost in the fog and don't care who knows about their adulterous affair.

They are part of the body of Christ, as are all believers, and, as such, they are sinning against both God and the body, in addition to their own spouses.

Folks like WAT are going to relish this scenario because of the disrepute it brings on the name of Christ and Christian behavior.

Regardless, it is a "cancer" in the congregation that cannot be tolerated and must be addressed. If the Pastor has been "running" from confronting similar past behavior, then he is going to need much supportive counsel to STAND FOR God and God's commands and BE the "head of his household," as well as the spiritual head of the local church.

It's messy. No two ways about it. But God can, and will, use even this mess to work for good in the lives of those who love Him.

God bless.