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I think the reason this keeps happening is that people keep shoving it under the rug. He knows and accepts his wifes infidelity or he would have stopped it by now. He expects everyone to not do anything and let his wife destroy all the marriages she wants. Its like cancer...if you treat it early you have a greater chance of successfully surviving but if you wait and let it fester and grow....well you know the rest. Do your friend and his wife and all the other married people/children in your Parrish a big favor and stop it now. The damage is done they have to go.

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The Search Committee who hired him was not told about his wife's affair, and the minister probably thought or hoped getting a new church would enable him & his wife to start fresh.

This could be disturbing. It raises some questions on the experience of the Selection Commitee or the forthrightness of the minister. The minister probably hadn't had enough time to restore his M before taking another flock.

I think I would suggest that you give Luke the books personally. It could be a form of exposure and shake him a bit to lossen up some of the fog. If he knows you are aware of the relationship then he knows it is no longer a secret and someone who's opinion he values is telling him it is wrong.

I hope we are helping you endures4evr.

S&C

BTW - InLikeFlynn does have a point. If the minister acceptedthis job w/o working on the restoration of his M, and everything keeps getting swept under the rug, then Kathy will keep on destroying marriages wherever they are. The denomoination should be aware of it, but it is the elders position to inform them.

Last edited by steadfast and committed; 02/08/06 07:51 PM.

No man likes to have his intelligence or good faith questioned, especially if he has doubts about it himself. - Henry Brooks Adams
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AskMe--Thank you for your imput. It helps to also hear from someone who has had to deal with this type of situation. I spoke confidentially to one of the deacons who advised me to "stay as far away from the situation as you can or it'll all come down on you." I am the one, aside from Luke's sister and his best friend, who knows about the affair. Though others in the church have seen them together, no one wants to see it exposed! It just baffles me. Our congregation is already suffering; attendance is dropping and the minister is distracted and depressed. He has never been strong in the pulpit but he shines in other areas of his ministry. However, people look to the minister for strength, and he's losing his.
L


"That's the sign post up ahead. Your next stop. The twilight zone."--Rod Serling
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I did indeed witness a few things myself. I was trying to give an overall picture rather than write down all the details known about the affair. And I thought I'd indicated that I wasn't just going on assumption. My apologies for that. Yes, I saw them one day in September sitting in Luke's car. Kathy was sitting next to him, up close. I saw her lean closely to his face and then saw them kiss. It was not a 'Hi, how was your day' kiss either. I had already spoken to the minister about how things appeared based upon what I had been told by a couple of other members, and by what I'd observed at a couple of social functions. But the kiss I witnessed came a month or so later. It was then that I met with a deacon who advised me to leave it alone and let God handle things. I want to approach this matter with compassion but anonimity because I don't want to be the one everyone will later point to for exposing the ugliness and causing our pastor to leave, or being responsible for the possible split in the church. So caution is the operative word. This is such a sad and terrible mess. But to ignore it would be wrong. waterfalls02333@yahoo.com


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S&C...great posts.

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If you are Lukes friend you need to stand up for what is right by telling him that his affair (if he is involved in an affair) is unacceptable for all concerned. I agree that you should give him the books in person. His betrayed spouse needs to be informed as soon as possible what has been going on behind her back. Unfortunately, since Luke and Kathy met at church this is a terrible witness for Janet.

Don't be a coward yourself. Do the honorable thing. Maybe go with another brother who witnessed Luke and Kathy's inappropriate behavior.

It sounds like the pastor received this position without being forthright in stating the history of his marriage. It was deceptive and wrong. His making excuses for his wife's suspicious behavior, and denying an affair was even a possibility doesn't bode well for his own character. If he was honest he would have said that he would explore the possibility that an inappropriate relationship could be happening because Kathy had previously engaged in an affair with a church member at the last church. The committee may need to reconvene.

Last edited by Trix; 02/08/06 09:05 PM.

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I would say do what you can and try not to feel too guilty. All you can do is tell the minister, tell Luke's wife, and talk to Luke.

Sounds like you have already gone to the deacons.

It isn't your mission to fix everything. (Not that you are trying to! I hope that doesn't sound rude.)

If Luke's wife doesn't care, Luke is aware of what he is doing, you have told your minister, and talked to the deacons, I don't know what else you can do.

It is sad that your church is suffering because of this.

I agree though...ignoring it would be wrong, but at some point the people involved have to take responsibility and pick up the ball.


me "Forgiveness is me giving up my right to hurt you for hurting me." Anonymous 'When I do good, I feel good, and when I do bad, I feel bad. That is my religion.' Abraham Lincoln my story http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=2912647&an=0&page=3#2912647
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mortar...

too much decision making....too far removed from the source..

the first rule is the BS is to confront the WS.

see we arent' even there yet....and now off on tangents on whose ALLOWED to even chime in...

any other person that comes here and says..
my friend is having an affair...which is what this is about...muddled with church roles....
we all give advice in post after after post..
tell the BS..
start there....

Who said NOT to start there? Please find in my posts where I advised NOT to go to the BS (the pastor) and talk to him about this?

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If indeed this has happened before and the pastor swept it under the rug...then it is a church issue.

too huge a leap in my opinion...
how do we KNOW what they did about it...
repeat offenders does not equal BS condonement..other wise then every BS here with a frequent flyer WS is to blame..

Didnt say that! And if you read on with her posts, you will see that this is a repeat offense for the pastor's wife. As S&C stated, the church has an issue here. The gossip, the division MUST be dealt with no matter hwat this pastor does with his wife. The church is bigger than him. As other posters have shown. even my old church was almost torn apart by an associate pastor who cheated on his wife. The yare still together now (husband and wife) and worked thru it. But, in the beginning, the church under the headship of the senior pastor...fired the associate pastor. As he should have...

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and the fact that there is gossip, and there is indication that this has happened before...

the fact there is gossip is because Christians like all others enjoy gossiping, intrusiveness and vouyersism just as much as the next unsaved slob...
human nature..
it's juicy it's about sex...lets dish....

Christians are not supposed to be saying "well, its humand nature." And the church is not to condone gossip, adultery or any of the mess. EVER!

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Since he is a pastor, he is held to a higher standard.

not before given knowledge..

And we have stated that the pastor should be the first that is talked to. But that is NOT the only thing that is to be done, especially with the situation outlined by the poster. She has even repeated the fact that they left a previous church because of this. That makes this situation a little different than just a pastor's wife shacked up with a church member. Now we have this issue of whether this was kept from the elders when they considered hiring him, whether he will adequately distance himself as the pastor because of his wife's behavior. Again, he is to get all the help he can to save his marriage, if that is what he desires. What he is not entitled to is to remian a pastor if he cannot get his house in order.

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The issue o nthe table isnt how to save the marriage

and that's what should be on the table..
and people that adhere to marriagebuilding principles here on marriagebuilders...should feel free to do so...

Why should it be on the table? Because you say it should? Jeessshhhh! The poster asked specific questions about dealing with the church. we attempted to answer those questions, as others did. And the statement that set a few people off was that on the church issues, that the poster should stick with Christian advice and Scripture because non-believers dont know and/or understand what is required.

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people should start heir own thread on what to do IF and when the wife of a pastor does this that or the other...

Why? This poster started THIS thread asking these questions. Who are any of us to say there should be another thread when THIS poster asked these things on THIS thread?

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and have jolly time discerning what this sect and that sect does within their church for such incidences....
a lovely enlightening exercise in theology
One of which I would most likely enjoy learning how and why churches choose this or that way...

You may enjoy that. Thats okay. But for Christiasn...and this poster in particular...this is a serious issue. One that must be dealt with.

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but on this post...
putting the cart way way before the horse..
as in start with informing the BS period and move from there...

the role of elders in your church could be as night is to day with the role of elders in another church...

Might be. That is why the person is asking the questions on what to do. In some churches, it is the elders. Some, it is the associate pastors. That is what needs to be discerned here, based on how her church has set-up church governance.

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directing this poster to go anyone else but the BS first in my opinion is wrong and cruel....
as if because they are a pastor the don't have the opportunity to prepare for both the storm from their spouse...and the backlash from their job..

ARK

Again, NO ONE stated for her to go to somewhere else. S&C just made a series of great posts on how to handle this. And one key thing here is that of gossip. So, this poster should go to the pastor and tell him what she knows. And then ask questions. If any of these issues are true about them keeping the former issue of adultery from this church, or if the pastor is not going to take care of this...then she is obligated to go to the next level. There is ALREADY derision and gossip in this flock...as was originally outlined in the original post. The poster didnt say she was the only one that knew. She said even people at the church had noticed the two embracing. Because of this, this is NOW BIGGER THAN THE PASTOR! She should go to him first. We have said that. But after leaving his office, her next stop should be to the elders (or whomever it is that this particular church has set up) in order to protect the church and its members.

This is why non-Christians dont understand what we are saying. Do the MB principles. Go to the pastor FIRST (which is what Scripture says) and allow him to prepare himself for what will happen. And one of those things that will happen will be that the elders will be notified so that they can deal with the church-related issues and also pull alongside the pastor in order to help him.

That is the Biblical way of doing it. And it is also VERY MB!!

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MM - thanks for your reply. I haven't read anything else.

Your reaction to my statement regarding the catholic churh and pedophelia:
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Huh? Believe me, the church doesnt need help from outside the church. The Catholic Church's problems are because of huge mistakes they have been making. If they had followed Scripture, they wouldnt be in this mess. But what they dont need is outside help. God can take care of the church issues just fine! (emphasis added)


Who took care of the young boys they exploited while the church was "taking care of its self" without outside help, hmmmm???

You don't get it do you?

THEY WEREN'T FOLLOWING SCRIPTURE!! They were trying to avoid "exposure". They were taking "care" of themselves, alright. It took outside help to reveal what was really going on!

The pastor in this church ISN'T FOLLOWING SCRIPTURE!!

This church needs all the help it can get from the outside because it's not getting it from the INSIDE!!

Not true! The church does not need outside help. Now, if the priests broke the law (which they did), then they should be thrown in jail. Even Jesus said we are all subject to the governments here on Earth. But the issues in the church dealing with this should be handled by the church. Some churches have been destroyed by things such as these. If the Catholic Church does not get back to Scripture and dealing with these issues and doesnt take care of them, then the Catolic Church will cease to exist. God can take care of His church.

Again, as I said, if the priests broke the law...throw their butts in jail. But, just because they did these horrendous things...and just because the church leadership hid these things...does not mean that the secular world needs to have any say on how the church deals with this. The priests were wrong. the church was wrong. They will all be dealt with. And the punishment is gonna be far worse than some judge throwing them in jail for 20 years!

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I see there's a few more responses on this thread. Hopefully someone answered my question as to what "un-Christian" advice looks like. I'd really like to know. I guess, literally, it look like all of my posts! Let the buyer beware! At least it's cheap!

WAT

Dont know what "unchristian" look like either. I do know what unScriptural looks like. And I know that no matter who utters it...Christian or nonbeliever...if it is unScriptural, then the Christian should ignore it. Always!

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Luke won't be the only one deeply hurt.

Duh, Hello?? What about Luke's wife? Forget about her?

Don't shed those crocodile tears for the minister his slut of a wife OR Luke before you do so for Luke's wife!!

Sheese.

Hmm. Did I say that? No I don't think I did. But thanks for selectively quoting me and misquoting me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />


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Endures4ever,

Good to hear from you. You know you may have to accept the fact that the BS (pastor) does not want to heal his M. He may accept that he will continue to enable his W t/b a WS. Luke is just one of a string of her suitors. Her H is the enabler. That makes him dangerous no matter where he goes.

For their superiors to move him from one place to another does not make them look wise. Wonder who else they may move out your way?!?!? That's just what some choose t/d instead of dealing with the issues outright.

That's why the trust is lost.

Does that mean it is ok to look the other way? No. But many do.

Your exposure may have some effect but even if it doesn't stop it all, just do what you can and drop it. Exposure doesn't guarantee to end the A. It does make people accountable and helps us keep our consciences clean.

It also helps others be aware and makes it harder for the perpetrators do their dirty work. It may drive the pastor to another town for her to do it again. That w/b his choice and sad for the next parish. Until those in charge take charge, the WS will continue her dirty deed.

At least you know you were not enabled. May be in time, Luke will appreciate your efforts.

JMHO,
L.

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Why should exposure in a church be treated differently than exposure anywhere else?

To save embarassment?

Hello again???

My hypocrisy meter is bouncing off the table!!

WAT

Why should exposure be handled any differently? It shouldn't. But where do you get off telling a third party to do the exposure? That's the job of one or both of the betrayed spouses.

And if neither of them cares or wants to know, it's the job of the elders to deal with it and so on up until you find someone who cares.


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I spoke confidentially to one of the deacons who advised me to "stay as far away from the situation as you can or it'll all come down on you.


I am aware how the situation turns around and suddenly you become the bad guy. I helped end an affair between an ex-pastor and my friends wife. Because I did it with hopes of them restoring their marriage, which they did, I kept the church out of it for the most part. Except I went to the new pastor because she was continuing in the affair while teaching children in Vacation Bible School and I didn't think that was acceptable. Because the husband gave substancially to the church the new pastor told me I needed to learn to forgive. It wasn't about forgiveness, it was about someone leading children who was in the midst of an affair with the previous pastor and kids seeing them out in public together. Well my wife and I just happened to go with my in-laws to church a few sundays later and the next thing I knew I got a letter in the mail from pastor saying he understood I had visited another church and I would be welcome back at our church when I decided to return. I HADN'T EVEN LEFT! And here I was being told I would be welcome back. So you can be labeled a troublemaker by people even when your intentions are right. And for those who might say there is hipocrisy in the church, no it's the same problem that has always existed, it's called sin. There will never be the perfect person and that is why Jesus Christ died on the cross. I'm just glad that I have a loving Lord who helps me love others and care for others enough that even though I might get hurt in the process, I still did what I had to do. And because of it that couple is still together with their 3 kids.

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mortarman..

my whole point is that no one knows for a FACT if he swept this under the rug...
or if he did a b c d e f g h and all the rest..

and his wife has again chosen to do this..

that's mostly what I am saying....


what if the church is Morman...they're Christian...
what if it's Seven Day Advantists.....
Lutheran

that's what I don't get...
how does everyone know what that church does...or this church...does....

and while there were blips of telling the pastor..there were also great recomendations to do this or that..
and in my opinion
LEAPS as to how much this pastor has dealt with this..

as if pastors are immune to repeat offenders and wafflers...

I agree the church gossip must be dealt with..it is as equally destructive as anything else..

I have no problem with posters responding to specific details as offered by the poster..but the first three pages of this post had way to many leaps and admonishments with too little information to for any one to say much more than the first step is to expose to the husband...


but thats only my opinion..
but telling someone to go here or there without even knowing the structure of the specific churches leadership makes no sense to me....
AND
applying all these subjective terms..
unrepentive and repeat offender...and hiding and condoning
are great leaps in my opinion..on the first three pages...

how would we know what he's dealt with..

now that other information is offered my point is rather mute...

but mortarman..marriagebuilding techniques should not be on the table because I said so...but because that is where we are....guests of marriagebuilders...
and people should feel free to start there...when here...

ARK

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You can advise Endures to seek the counsel of her church but I don't feel you have a right to tell WAT to butt out on this forum. This is not the church's forum. And just for the record, I am a Christian who believes in God.


Shattered, for the record, I did NOT tell WAT, or anyone else, to "butt out" of the forum. I advised Endures4ever, to be very discerning in what advice he accepts and implements BECAUSE there was, and is, going to be advice being thrown at him from ALL posters, including those who DO NOT accept Jesus Christ.

If you look at the progression, it was WAT who jumped all over ANY suggestion that a Christian should seek God's "advice" first, and that Chrsitians should seek and accept God's commands and "advice" over any secular advice that might be in conflict with God's "advice column" known as Scripture. Furthermore, it is WAT who decided that he was being "attacked" and needed to "fire back" with all guns blazing directly at me. That's because WAT and I have "history." WAT is violently and dogmatically against ANY "hint" of Christianity, let alone any "hint" that Christian thought should be taught as being "right" and/or "superior" to secular thought. WAT is a proponent (from past discussions that I have had with him) that SOCIETY should determine what is moral and right and NOT God and God's Word.

It is WAT who is tossing around terms like "slut" and acting like a bigoted fool against anything Scriptural. WAT thinks that Christian churches should follow secular "corporate-like," instead of "Christ-like," rules for dealing with "sin" and misbehavior of members. I disagree. I would think that other Christians would think the same, but a lot of that will depend upon whether or not a person claiming to be a Christian BELIEVES the Scripture to be the "Word of God." If Scripture is NOT the Word of God, then on WHAT basis would a "Christian" decide what is "Right and Wrong" and what is "God's will" and what is not? Toss out the Scripture and supplant it with "human reason" and elevate "human thought" above God's thought's?

"Seek the LORD while he may be found; call on him while he is near. Let the wicked forsake his way and the evil man his thoughts. Let him turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on him, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD.
"As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than you ways and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:6-9 NIV)

As Jesus put it, if we can apply the teaching to this situation, Christians are to "render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and unto God that which is God's."

Christianity IS a "separating" religion NOT because "Christians" say so, but because GOD says so.

[color:"red"]"Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.

"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For have come to you to turn

"'a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law - a man's enemies will be members of his own household.'

"Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his one or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it." [/color] (Matthew 10:32-39 NIV)

We, all peoples, are either FOR or AGAINST Christ. There is no "middle ground," no "parallel path." THE WAY is a narrow road BY God's command and design, not by "man's" creation.

In matters affecting the Church, the Church must deal with it, through those who are "elected" to serve as "overseers" of the faith. God entrusts them with the position and holds them accountable for upholding HIS commands and teaching.

So far, all that Endures4ever has reported is the APPEARANCE of an affair, certainly of the EA variety and possibly NOT of the PA variety. There IS an apparant emotional connection between the two, and it is at the very least, "inapproprite," given that that they are both married. But the matter must be dealt with forthrightly, according to God's teaching in HOW to deal with things of this nature, for the good of the body AS WELL AS for those who "might" be caught up in the "fog" of sin. Pastors, Pastor's wives, Deacons, Elders, Christians are NO different from unbelievers in ONE respect.....we ALL, saved and unsaved alike, continue to live in a fallen, sin-natured, body for as long as we live on this earth. THAT is what the process of Sanctification addresses, the conforming of our lives, DESPITE our human nature, to more "Christ-likeness." It is WHY forgiveness is necessary because NONE of us "sinless" in our own right. Our "sinlessness" is imputed to us BY Christ, not in our own right. Christ IS "head of the body," not us. We "stand in" for him, and are held accountable for HOW we "stand in."

In dealing with an affair, by the husbands and wives directly involved in an attempt to end an affair and recover their marriages, Marriage Builders concepts CAN be used and ARE effective in many areas. But for Christians, it goes BEYOND just the MB concepts and INTO humble obedience to God's command regardless of what we might be feeling at any given time.

As Peter has warned all Christians:
"But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them - bringing swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth of into disrepute.

In their greed these teachers will exploit you wiht stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to he11, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he say and heaerd) - if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.

This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature (Or the flesh) and despise authority.

Bold and arrogant, these men are not afraid to slander celestial beings; yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not bring slanderous accusations against such beings in the presence of the Lord. But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.

They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you. With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed - an accursed brood! They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Beor, who loved the wages of wickedness." (2Peter 2:1-15 emphasis added)

... "Dear friends, this is now my second letter to you. I have written both of them as reminders to stimulate you to wholesome thinking. I want you to recall the words spoken in the past by the holy prophets and the command given by our Lord and Savior through the apostles.

First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation." But they deliberately forget (as in "choose") that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and with water. By water also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for the day of judgment adn destruction of ungodly men.

But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.

Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live godly lives as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. but in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of the righteous.

So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all of his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position. But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen. (2Peter 3:1-18 emphasis added)


Shattered, ALL that I have been saying is that for Christians, God's Word, should "reign supreme" as the instrument of "teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in all righteousness." (2Tim 3:16) If NOT the Scripture, then what?

Shattered, I previously quoted 1Cor 6:9-11, so I won't repeat it now. What I want to emphasize, however, is the CONCLUSION that is the great promise and hope....."And that is what some of you WERE. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." (v.11, emphasis added)

Repentance and forgiveness, and restoration, are what we all strive for "in Christ."

God bless.

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Quote
what if the church is Morman...they're Christian...


ark - no, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is NOT Christian in any way other than their appropriating the name "Christian." They do NOT believe that Jesus is God. The believe Jesus was a created being, not God. In fact, they believe that he is the brother of Satan. They have historically advocated, and it was a founding pillar of their religion for many years and still influences much of Mormonism, for POLYGAMY and not monogamy.

So, the question that is relevant is "what standards do you use to define and measure what 'Christian' is? If it is the Scripture, that is a standard we will all, as Christians, agree upon. That brings us right back to the question that I have asked many times before on many previous threads; "IS Jesus Christ who he said he was?" "Is Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the second person of the Trinity?" "Is Jesus Christ God?"

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MM -

Quote
Again, as I said, if the priests broke the law...throw their butts in jail. But, just because they did these horrendous things...and just because the church leadership hid these things...does not mean that the secular world needs to have any say on how the church deals with this.

MM - I propose that you missed my point regarding the Catholic problem with pedophilia.

The Church did not "deal" with it > they covered it up AND shuffled problem priests off to other parishes, effectively "spreading" the problem while trying to protect their image.

It was only after "exposure" in the secular world that the problem was finally confronted. Do you dispute that?

God did not take care of his church. God did not take care of the problem. God did not protect additional young boys from being exploited by priests - the very people they were led to believe they could trust. Your stated solution failed.

Yep, the church was allowed to take care of things on it's own and it failed miserably. In the meantime, more boys were harmed for life. It was ONLY when exposed to the secular world that something was done. The church didn't "deal with it."

Those are the facts. Period. Why should anyone with a brain believe it won't happen similarly in other situations when it happened to this extent here? Why trust that the church can handle itself?

This is the last post I will make on this ugly, ugly thread. Many things were revealed.

WAT

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Is endures4evr a man or a woman?
I was thinking a woman.
However, foreverhers referred to endures as a "he".

The reason I thought a woman was in the first post:
"I'd made friends with Kathy, as a handful of other church women did."

If so, it would be her husband's responsibility (as the
spiritual leader of the home) to handle this alleged
problem.

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Quote
Yep, the church was allowed to take care of things on it's own and it failed miserably. In the meantime, more boys were harmed for life. It was ONLY when exposed to the secular world that something was done. The church didn't "deal with it."

Those are the facts. Period. Why should anyone with a brain believe it won't happen similarly in other situations when it happened to this extent here? Why trust that the church can handle itself?

This is the last post I will make on this ugly, ugly thread. Many things were revealed.


Oh come on WAT, get off your "holier than thou" horse. NO ONE is arguing that the Catholic Church has handled the matter of Priests and sexual abuse of boys correctly, or even well. That is NOT the issue. The issue is the Sovereignty of God and that ALL Christians are supposed to follow God's commands in HUMBLE OBEDIENCE, and NOT choose to do things their way. What makes you think that God has NOT used secular laws TO punish the church for lack of obedience?

But let's not stop there. To extend your logic, who is responsible for NOT stopping NAMBLA? The Church? The ACLU? You and me?

Who is responsible for not stopping the murder of MILLIONS of innocent babies on the alter of abortion and a "woman's right to kill that which is NOT totally her own DNA?" The Church stands in opposition to abortion and is told by the secularists to "mind your own business."

Your attacks on Christianity and your nitpicking examples of convenience IS just as "revealing" as your distainful use of the term as you implied it to "reveal disgust with Christianity."

Tolerance? Not if it's Christian. Not according to WAT. MB principles and guidelines ONLY.

But it is interesting how opinionated you are about all this while sidestepping the question about your own personal experience, or lack of experience, with the issues you are advising others about.

Have a good day WAT. Seriously. I do hope one day you will really sit down and answer the question I've posed to you many times before..."Is Jesus who he said he was?"

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celt06 - You could be right. Endures could be a woman. Generally it is men who are in seminary though, so it's possible we are talking about a liberal seminary and my "gender" thought might be incorrect.

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