Longhorn,

The bench. She mush have layed down and he kinda layed on top of her while "making out". So at the end of the kiss or something, he sat up. The were both fully clothed and did not appear to be about to start ripping each other's clothes off. When she sat up, she looked confused before I knocked on the window. Had they been fully engaged or aggressive, I wouldn't be in here looking for support.

The next morning she called in and quit her job herself. I never had to ask of that, she obviously knew that was an absolute. I haven't gone into the restaurant to speak w/ the manager yet. 2 reasons. The first, I know one of the managers from years ago, and it's humiliating to me. And 2, I'm a much more rational person than years ago as well; although the thought of seeing the bartender face to face without brick and mortar between us is very unsettling to me.

In_Distress

Yes, of course you are correct.

Even before engagement. We used to call it 'going steady'
A school ring or pin was exchanged as a symbol of this 'agreement' to not date others. If someone wanted to start dating someone else, the ring or pin was returned.

This usually happened after certain behaviors transpired similar to the one the poster talked about. A stolen kiss from another boy. It was exciting but often you would decide that you wanted to stay with your steady after all.

Even when engaged, 'final flings' were not an uncommon phenomena.

I know that no one agrees with me here on this but I have always felt pretty strongly about this.

I don't know why it seems so 'black and white' to me but it is.

Perhaps things are different today but I cannot help the way I feel. It just seems to me that if you put all into the engagement what belongs to marriage--co-habitation, buying property, having children, forsaking all others--what value does the actual institution of marriage have anymore? What is the point?

Ummm... not sure why pieta is posting on a marriagebuilding site with that mentality but oh well... it's a free country.


In_distress - it sounds like you are being smart by calling off the wedding for now and taking things slowly. Like I said, marriage is forever (or at least you should go into it with that mentality) so it won't hurt to wait a year or two. Too many people rush into it and end up divorced in no time.

I wish you the best of luck. I know you counted on her and your trust is quite shattered right now. Let her earn it back... or not. It's up to you.

I can relate to your situation. I was once working a night-shift and had to go home to get new clothes. Entered my apartment to find another man between my then fiancés legs. There was no doubt about “how far” or any “just kissing” excuse. I walked out and never looked back. I made no attempt to reconcile and have never regretted that decision. We were just about 5 weeks from out marriage and had been dating/engaged for over 2 years. Like you I thought it was perfect.

Yes, there is a tendency here to suggest people without kids or engaged just leave. Learn from the mistake and move on. And the arguments to do this can be very strong and convincing. There is a rule of thumb I read somewhere that reconciliation takes a minimum of 2 years. And that is 2 years of hard work. In those two years things like getting married and/or having kids would be irresponsible.
Recovering from a broken heart takes six months. And that gives you 18 months to move on and find someone you do not have to start off with fixing.

On the other hand if you take reconciliation seriously then you can create a base for a fantastic marriage. But it is hard work. There is no way you can do it alone. You need assistance and professional guidance and that costs. It also takes a lot of commitment from both of you. If either of you is controlled by the feeling that being together is making a sacrifice then there is no way it can work. Yes – being married does require the “sacrifice” of having to be considerate, not screwing around and meeting my wife’s needs but I get so much more in return. If I got the same return on money I would be very rich.

If you could find a patented original way to reconcile you too could be rich. I would rather suggest you read about how people with experience suggest you go about it and follow their advice.

So – if you decide to work things out with your GF then be aware of the work ahead. Make sure she is also aware of the work ahead and the time required. This will not just go away. Very often the WS will be remorseful for a month or so and then demand “you move on”. That will not happen. Ten years down the road – when your wife comes late from work the third evening in a row – what will you think?

In my case I left my fiancé. A few years later I met my present wife. We have been married for quite a few years now and generally it has been good. But I had trust issues that are directly connected to my earlier experience. It was not until I handled those issues that my marriage became better. And only when we applied some MB tactics that it became great. So no matter whether you leave or work things out then make sure YOU handle your trust issues.

One final point: How does your wife handle alcohol? Is there any alcoholism in her family? I have a close friend of the family (my wife’s best friend) who is a confessed alcoholic (been sober now for 12 years). She did not drink regularly. She could abstain for a year for that matter. Even when she drank she did not puke or slobber or fall down. She looked about as normal as a “normal” drunk person. What happened was that she lost control of her sexual inhabitations (for lack of a better word) and would hit on every man around. Way too often she would end up having sex with someone other than her husband. That didn’t go down too well and they divorced. Anyway – alcoholism is also when you can not control your actions when drinking – not only drinking too much.

I also feel that IF she was drunk enough to let her guard down then planning to go home in her car is very irresponsible. But then my view is clouded form my time in the police. That time nearly 20 years ago when I came home to find my XGF and OM... I was on a night-shift and had to come home to change shirts. The one I was in had bloodstains from a drunk 22 year old driver.

No offense but somebody needs to wack you into this century. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> First of all there is such a thing as common law marriage even without the certificate. Second your post gives zero advice and comes off as bragging. Don't know if that was your intention but that is how I read it. BTW, if you are engaged to someone and they sleep with someone else then marriage or not that is cheating. No marriage certificate required, so I guess your husband slept with all sorts of women while you were engaged and you said "That's ok honey, we're not married yet." Is that it? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Kissing someone back is a concious decision. Is this really the way someone acts who is in love with somebody else? Is she A; selfish B; inconsiderate or C; conniving or, if your relationship has any chance of long term success, D; weak?
Truth and honesty are 2 fundamental laws of human character that can't be broken, we can only break ourselves agianst them. As humans we constantly seek these traits in others. To quote a famous poet " What you are shouts so loudly in my ear that I can't hear what you are saying". The burden of proof is on her. I know this sounds harsh but this is your life. You've already felt the pain that many people here live with, I bet you don't like it.

Folks,

I think you are not paying attention to what Pieta is saying. And I think you would do well to really listen to her. She is saying that NO VOWS have been exchanged. There is NO LEGAL CONTRACT which marriage is. If being engaged were the same as marriage, there would be no engagements. If living with someone was the "same" as marriage, there would be no living together, you would be legally and morally bound.

For the person that mentioned common law marriage, first they require years of cohabitation, not a ceremony and papers. Second these laws were enacted to prevent children and women from being without legal protection with regard to support, and in todays world common law marriages are basically useless in this regard because paternity can be established and in most states the bio father is going to get nailed for support.

Finally, living together does NOT lead to common law marriages automatically as one or both of the people doing this may be married.

Whether anyone wants to admit it or not, marriage is a special situation and it is NOT the same as being engaged, living together, or whatever. Pieta's comments are very much in the "marriage builder" mold because in this case there is NO marriage to build.

There is a relationship that might be saved, perhaps it should be saved and perhaps it should NOT. That is for the parties concerned to decide. But, marriage is MORE than a piece of paper as one often hears these days, usually from those that do not want to commit their hearts, their souls, and yes their ASSETS to another person.



IF you doubt me, consider what it takes to get out of a marriage vs. ending an engagement, or simply living together. You don't need lawyers for the latter two situations, and it does not cost you half of your assets if you are a male.

As for the comment that it is cheating even if not married you are right, and it makes one seriously consider the viability of getting married to such a person. But, part of all of the dating, engagement, etc is to see if this person is worthy of commiting you life to them.

Pieta, offered more than you seem to realize but you must realize that it is really his call, and what she is saying is that given the situation (not married) it may well be more forgivable, even if the actions are very questionable.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

I am paying attention to what Pieta said but that is not how it came out. She said no vows were exchanged therefore no infidelity occured. It did and while they were not married it does not alter the feeling of betrayal. I thought her post came off as insensitive. She probably did not intend it to be that way but to my eyes it was. BTW, if I found out that my man had a final fling before we got married I would have flinged has [censored] right out the door. Lying is unacceptable and sleeping with another woman while committed to another is WRONG not to mention dangerous. That's how AIDS and other STD's get spread. I think you are not only old fashioned but irresponsable and insensitive as well.

Whatever,

You really cannot have infidelity without being married. Nor can you have adultery. You sure can have cheating though and that is the difference Pieta is making.

You said
Frankly, "I don't give a D*** my dear." What you think of me is really not a major thing in my life. My interest on this board is that people get advice that makes them think and analyze their situation. Pieta's advice was meant to do just that. My advice to him was meant to do just that.

What he decides to do is really up to him. It is his life and it is on him to make the best decision for himself. I do however agree with you that if I were engaged or just dating a woman that lied to me or cheated, it would be then end. Come to think about it, that is how I became disengaged from the woman I was to marry in my youth. She lied and cheated and that was the end of it.

It might make you feel great to know, that one of the men she was with killed her. I personally did not find that very comforting. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Be careful what you say or commit to because when real life hits you, the issues are much more complicated and the results can be very difficult to handle.

God Bless,

JL

I usually agree with JL and enjoy his posts very much. He gives great advice but I guess I am going to disagree with him here. You can have infidelity even when you are not married.

Another reason to expect fidelity are STD's and AIDS. There is also the possibility of catching a disease or maybe she gets pregnant. I don't think he wants to be raising another guys kid. Now if they were stupid enough to agree they could go shag others then that would be different but I did not get that from this post.

There is no requirement that you be married for there to be infidelity. When you are engaged and living together it is cheating and it is infidelity.

Now you are lucky in some respects. You are not married so take some time and do not rush into marriage. If you think this hurts now wait until you have invested time and years and have kids. Then it is harder to seperate due to other obligations.

She needs to figure out why she did this. Also I would be very concerned about something else here. She was only at that job for 2 nights if I read your post right. Now if she is doing that after only 2 nights at that job don't you think she has probably been doing it on other occasions? If only after 2 nights at a job she is hooking up with a guy I am willing to bet that there may have been others?

I am not saying to dump her but make sure you get honesty and the full story. This might be a one time thing that will never happen again.

That is the problem for me too. When I care for a man, even in a dating scenario, I have NEVER wanted someone else. If someone hit on me, it gave me the creeps, drunk or not.

It's kind of interesting, I googled "purpose of engagement" today, and all I found was things about buying a diamond ring! I think most people have an idea about engagement, but maybe we don't really think about the actual meaning.

IHE,

You said
I thank you very much for your kind words. I know we are shaving definitions here, but given I am an old fogey humor me for a moment.

I went and looked up Infidelity it says

1. Lack of religious beliefs especially Christianity and Islam.

2. Lack of fidelity or loyalty: unfaithfulness.

3. A disloyal act.

4. Adultery

Fidelity:

1. Faithfulness to obligations, duties, or observances: loyality

Now the point here is that marriage requires a statement of faith, an acceptance of duties and obligations to the partner, a vow to be faithful, and legally only a married person can be an adulterer.

Engagements are simply asking a question "will you marry me?" followed by an affirmative answer. No vows, no promises, NOTHING.

I realize that people seem to think otherwise, but that is the case.

Now an engaged couple may EXPECT that the person is exclusive with them...I sure would. But, no vow has been given, therefore there really cannot be infidelity. However, there sure can be cheating and it sure can hurt.

Are you seeing why I am slicing this thing as I do. This is not an engagement builders site, it is a marriage builders site for a reason.


While, I am reserving the word infidelity for marriage, this comment is absolutely true whether you call in infidelity or cheating. Further, it is a major concern and is a good reason to ask if this person really cares for you if they willingly risk exposing you to the situations IHE expresses.


Neither do I.




As you can see I don't agree with this statement. The reality is that there is NO requirement that one limit themselves to just the person they are engaged to,given the nature of the request and that affirmative answer. However, it is expected that an engagement be a trial so see if the person one is engaged to conducts themself in a manner befitting someone you would want to marry, hence no vows. It is a trial, a test, and cheating can and usually is construed as flunking the test. Some can decide to offer another test, others won't and don't make that offer.

I think Pieta was trying to say that since it was an engagement that vows had not been broken, but lies have been told, kisses exchanged. This suggests a reevaluation of the partner as to their suitabililty to be a spouse. Now IF the partner learns a lesson from this, then perhaps one actually has found a better candidate for marriage than just HOPING an A won't occur. Who is to know?

But, in an engagement it is easier to end it, there are no legal entanglements, and no or not many financial entanglements. Pieta's point I think and surely my point is that this means there is less reason to fight to keep things together (no vows, no promises, no entanglements) AND there are less things to forgive (no vows broken, and no promises broken) if one is so inclined.

It is as is often the case all in the eye of the beholder.

God Bless,

JL

As per your description above, I would have to say that she performed a

"Disloyal Act"

Anyways, this is all beside the point. We start therapy next Thursday. And for anyone unsure of our situation prior; we own a condo together, share joint accounts on everything and ordered everything from the catering to the DJ when this happened. We've been engaged for over a year and if it hadn't been for scheduling, we'd indeed be married now.

In_Distress

You're sounding a lot stronger now, InD. Excellent. It's good you are going to counseling. Make sure whoever you are seeing is a pro-couples counselor and a well experienced one. There are varying grades and points of view of counselors just as there are good cooks and bad ones. You need one of the good ones.

I suspect you're going to keep discovering things about this incident or series of incidents. Since you've determined the bartender must have been lying, at least partially, atop your girlfriend, you now know her story that cannot be correct. There had to be more interaction for them to wind up entangled as you describe. Could it be she had a confused look on her face when you first saw her because she heard you moving around outside and though it was someone inside the restaurant? If she thought they were alone, she would have been confused.

Please use the open forum a good counselor can set up for communication between you and your girlfriend to find out why this happened, whether it has happened before without you detecting it, and whether it is likely to happen again. These are things vitally necessary for you to know before you commit to a lifetime with this woman. Good luck. My thoughts are with you.

Sorry do not mean to thread jack just wanted to respond quickly to JL.

I do disagree with what you say but certainly not in a mean sprited way. I guess people can disagree agreeably! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> I do want to state why I disagree with you but after that I think we both know where we stand.

In the definition it speaks nothing of only applying to a marrage. I would assume that people for instance that are gay would consider it infidelity even if they cannot have a ceremony.

We are splitting hairs but again she cheated on person that she owns a condo with. Your definition above in this case would include 2. Lack of fidelity or loyalty: faithfulness as well as 3. A disloyal act.

Now having said that I think they need to really discuss this and I am sure they will. I have a hard time believing that she worked at a place for 2 nights and did this and this is the only time it happened.

That might be true but I do not believe it. It is not like she had a friendship with this guy and it got out of control. She just met him and this happened? This is a major red flag. I would imagine that she has done this before but this is probably the first time she was caught.

In Distress, I applaud you for not rushing into things. Good luck to you

Ok, so this is unbelievable. What are my friends thinking? I went skiing with my best friend today who told me him and some of the rest of my friends went out last night. He wanted to let me know they won't forgive her for what she did to me and politely ask that I do everything possible to make sure they don't have contact with her.

I can't believe my friends would try to sway my decision by hanging me out to dry like this. Why do they decide to kick me while I'm down. And no, they have no other information regarding this incident than I have. Rough week...

Your friends are trying to support you as best they know how. They aren't trying to leave you hanging in the wind. They think you're not going to be able to reconcile with her. Don't worry about it. Things that are decided upon over a pitcher of beer can be reversed over time.

Did you tell them about the incident? If not, they must know something you don't yet.

Talk to your best friend. Two reasons for this: number one is to see if they know more about your GF behavior than you do. The old adage about the spouse being the last to know is perfectly true. In my case one of my better friends had seen my fiancé and OM together and had found their interaction suspicious. That helped me a lot in my decision on whether to reconcile or not.

The other reason is because he has to know you two want to reconcile. Your friends have to accept that and now you need a safety cocoon around you and your GF.

I just talked to my wife’s friend – the dry alcoholic. She told me that she meets weekly with an AA group of 8-10 women who had basically the same problem she had with alcohol. None of them drank a lot or steadily but each and every one of them lost some control of their sexual/moral urges/restraints when drunk. Please consider the possible explanation I posted.

Ok, so this has to be a hard day for most on here. My GF has made us reservations at a nice restaurant this evening. I'm trying to be loving and thoughful, but it's so hard today. I do love her very much, I just feel like we haven't gotten much accomplished since the "event". We went to counseling a week ago to see if our relationship is salvagable, and we start marriage counseling/her individual counseling on Thurday.

Do I just need to suck it up today and pretend like the "event" didn't happen? I can't even imagine having to pick out the right card today...God, this is hard.

In_Distress

infidelity


1. Unfaithfulness to a sexual partner, especially a spouse.
2. An act of sexual unfaithfulness.
3. Lack of fidelity or loyalty.
4. Lack of religious belief.




n: the quality of being unfaithful



Main Entry: adul·tery
Pronunciation: &-'d&l-t(&-)rE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -ter·ies
Etymology: Middle English, alteration of avoutrie, from Middle French, from Latin adulterium, from adulter adulterer, back-formation from adulterare
: voluntary sexual intercourse between a married man and someone other than his wife or between a married woman and someone other than her husband; also : an act of adultery


imho she didn't commit adultery but she did commit infidelity. Another term could be "final fling" as pieta put it or "cheating" but they all amount to the same basic thing.