Arghhhhh! I talked to H today regarding him sending back the divorce papers. He is quibbling about the amount of child support. I told him if he doesn't agree, then we can go to court. (We were trying to work it out between us.) Anyway, he basically is insane, I believe. Really abusive, verbally, saying all kinds of nasty things, basically saying I have been lying to him all along (and for our entire marriage also!) Then, in between that, he complains that I never wanted to spend time with him, took him for granted, bla, bla, bla. He is literally another personality. So angry and so bitter towards me. It is as if he has been brain-washed (I do suspect he has been talking to his, not-quite-all-there mother so that could be it.) ANyway, I am at my wit's end. I get so angry at him for treating me this way as if it is MY fault that he is basically stuck in a relationship with OW that is shaky at best, financially unstable and now is losing wife also. How do I handle his outbursts. I have been careful not to yell and to be rational yet firm. What is his problem and what can I do?<P>------------------<BR>Rachel :)<P>

Don't listen<BR>Don't talk<BR>and have a written visitation order and child support order that requires no communication<P>Do you want to fight? Then fight!!!! Yell all you want! Lovebust until it is all over and you both get so exhausted and you finally feel indifferent.<P>Rachael, when will you decide what it is that you really want?<P>

Ummmm, excuse me??? What I really want? What I really want is for him to stand his ground on something....to either finish this and move on, or get his head out of his [censored]. But in the meantime, his little tantrums affect me. I think you are a little presumptive to ask me what I really want. At least I am not clinging to this forum for years at a time waiting for my spouse to change and rebuild our marriage. At least I am not living in a fantasy land.. You know, everyone claims that the betrayer is living a fantasy but so are some of you, by living stagnant in your lives, waiting for someone who took your love, relationship, tears, laughter, til death do us part and trampled it, stomped on it, and threw it in your faces. Yeah, now THAT is what I want. Have some self esteem, be willing to admit to yourself and everyone else that your spouse did/does not have the character that it takes to fight the good fight and stick with the marriage. That is what is comes down to. Yes, it is hard to admit, but it is freeing. Once you know the truth, then you can move on to something better.<P>------------------<BR>Rachel :)<P>

Rachael, <P>Didn't you say your husband had moved on and tried to tell you so? Are you saying your husband didn't move on? But you did?<P>I'm confused. <P>I just can't figure out what you want from the Harley methods! You want your husband to come home, you want this nightmare to end, but you thought the best thing to do to make this happen was to let him stay with OW and get a divorce... That didn't make sense. <P>You said you weren't going to even worry about your husband and you were going to get on with your life - and if he should change his mind, then, and only then, would you even consider a reconciliation.<P>So, if he is still in the same mode as he was before, then what has changed? Are you angry because you two are still fighting? Doesn't that tell you something? <P>There isn't indifference here, there is still some sort of a relationship, isn't there? <P>If there is that fine line between love and hate, and if you guys are in "hate" - How much effort would be involved to turn it back to love? No lovebusters - kindness and time? <P>Come on, Rachael - try it for 6 months and see if anything changes. <P>If you want to move on, without him, then don't listen and don't talk to him, and let the courts handle it all, and reduce the conflict.<P>I have tried and tried and tried to get you to see that this marriage has a chance. You only come here to post when you are sick and tired of him. <P>Please Rachael, for your sake and for your husband,s go get that towel, and put out that pride that stops you from trying. <P>Or just end this relationship and do something positive for YOU, okay? I know you aren't a plan B type. <P>Maybe you are? Then in that case you still do something for YOU, nothing for him, and you just don't date and you put the divorce on hold.<P>That doesn't mean you can't get a separation with child support and a visitation agreement, where you don't have to talk or listen. <P>It is up to you and nobody else, Rachael.<P>I haven't stopped thinking about you or your situation. This really breaks my heart that you won't even give it 6 months to try.<P>By then, he could be sick of her. And you could then start rebuilding your life with him.<P>TNT

Harley’s methods are not only to help get back your spouse. They are to help you get through this the BEST way possible.<P>Read this thread <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/007167.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/007167.html</A> <P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html</A> <BR>

Cam, <P>Please, don't start another thread again, okay? Please check out Chris's thread above.<P>Maybe you can see that the Harley methods aren't as horrible as you think.<P>Do you want justice, or do you want a marriage?<P>TNT<P>

I wanted a marriage, but he hasn't been willing to try. Then on the other hand he says and does things that make me coubt his position. And the way he treated me last night is indicitive of this. He verbally assaulted me on the phone because he didn't agree with the child support amount. Then he yelled about how I never cared about him and ignored him during our marriage. He needs to make up his mind. This whole time, I have continued with the divorce, yet been respectful and even friendly, but it is like he can't handle either. I don't want to be married to the man I was on the phone with last night. I really don't know what to do. I refuse to drop the divorce, only to have it continue anyway, and then me be out thousands of dollars. Is there a way to ensure some stability?<P>------------------<BR>Rachel :)<P>

Ok, as per TNT's request, I am not starting a new thread. Here is the thing. Yes, H has made it clear that he wants to move on. Fine. But in the meantime he wabbles back and forth from being very caring and cordial and wonderful to this devil, being emotionally and verbally abusive and basically acting like a crazy person. So, do you blame me for wanting to get out? Yes, I would have liked my marriage to work, but not only can H not commit to it, but his attitude is like Jeckyl and Hyde. I have no choice. Yes, I could wait 6 months or 1 year for him to come around, but in the meantime I am being used as a figurative punching bag. Is this healthy? Any professional would tell a woman in a marriage that was being treated like this to get out, so why is it that it is perfectly ok to take while one is "working" on recovering a marriage? If someone could guarantee me that this would pass and that it is simply him being afraid and not a serious character flaw, I might consider waiting. But, I cannot wait around being emotionally battered like this only to eventually keep my husband, but be a shell of a woman with ever the memory of the affair, the mistrust and the attitude on his part. Does that make sense to anyone?<P>------------------<BR>Rachel :)<P>

I am totaly disheartened by the talk of six months and years, I want my life back now...no yesterday!!!

Cam,<P>All I am saying is in plan B you say to your husband:<P>"Look, you want a relationship with the OW, and I want a marriage. We are at an impass, here. I believe this marriage has a chance. But with you being with the otherwoman, there is no chance of rebuilding our marriage. I don't want a divorce, but I am going to go on with my life, and have no further contact with you."<P>"This decision isn't meant as punishment, it is just that it is too painful when we fight and argue about the OW, and with her in our lives. I simply cannot take having her in our lives anymore. I want to work on resolving our differences, and loving you and you loving me, and us being a family, because THAT is what I believe is right. But I don't have the energy or stamina to do this right now, with the OW in the picture."<P>"I want no further contact, and I want us to devise a plan that includes visitation specifically, and I would like this money issue to be resolved equitably."<P>"If you decide to end the relationship with the other woman, and if I haven't already moved on, then we can start rebuilding this marriage. Until then, no further contact."<P>That is plan B style. It protects you from making further withdrawals from the lovebank, (lovebusters) because you are not talking with this person.<P>You are however, working on you. Reducing the conflict, and simply not dating for 6 months.<P>Is that too much to do?<P>TNT<P>Plan A is a totally different concept.

Hi Cam -<P>I'm sorry that your feeling so frustrated and tired of all this...I am too!!!<P>I just put a post on Paul's Quick Question Thread that I would like you to read - maybe it can help you with another perspective.<P>I - as you probably know - have been in this a long time. I did't find MB til May and did not have the advantage of knowing anything about infidelity and it's symptoms and what can be done to both help me or my H through it.<P>I completely understand .... you are looking for the impossible though when you want assurances!!! You know that - I don't have to point that out...that's frustration and anger and fear talking.<P>You can keep looking at things the way you have been and still are - which might cause some self esteem issues OR you can try a different perspective.<P>You aren't alone or unique in what you are experiencing, Cam. All of us have endured this is one way or another. A lot of us have had the Jekyll/Hyde factor and have dealt with the verbal, emotional, financial and sometimes physical abuse....everyone is different in how they handle it. <P>For some they just wonder why, stay angry and let it overwhelm their very souls!! Some realize the symptoms and implement the tools provided here of and for infidelity. Some just Wait and don't really do anything for themselves because they are paralyzed by the devastation. I could go on and on....<P>It's up to you - not your H - on how you need to approach the situation that you are in. If you are content to let his actions lead yours than you will continue to go up and down on the rollercoaster.<P>If, however you take a moment to look into your heart and nowhere else - what would it tell you to do? <P>Never mind what he is doing, saying or how he's acting!!! What kind of woman do YOU want to be? What kind of actions do YOU want to see happen?<P>Take what it is you want for the direction of your life and put all your energy into that - instead of wasting it on how wrong and bad H is.<P>He'll have to deal with his own demons, you can't decide or try to bring about when that will be.<P>I do know what you are saying and logic would suggest the common sense of it...but where in this nightmare do you see common sense?<P>If you love your husband and want to be married then you keep the man that he was when you married him in the forefront of your mind and at the same time....look and see how close (or far) you are to/from the woman that he married. <P>Your choices? <P>You can throw in the towel and keep the divorce going - however, that entails not giving a hoot about his actions or words or speculating on his feelings or attitude. Why would you? You don't care, remember?<P>If you love your husband and want to attempt to learn what can be done by YOU to make life better for you and ultimately the marriage....then get to work and stop reacting to his moods or biting to the bait.<P>If you want to tell him that you want marriage but he needs to do his part or else forget it....do the plan B letter like TNT has so kindly even written out for you.<P>I can tell you one thing, Cam! Trying to apply all of these mixed together will NOT work.....<P>You are as unstable as H if you go in that direction....you need stability and YOU have to create it for yourself. I am only able to do what I do with my mess because I have no self esteem issues or any sinful pride getting in my way.....I know what I want!!! <P>Doesn't mean that I will get it, but I sure as hell am not going to sabotage it!!<P>Read the post I referred to on Paul's thread.......<P>I hope this helps you some.....you have to make some stability for yourself. It's the only way to REALLY assert yourself. Huffing and puffing just doesn't do it.<P>HUGS and Strength to you,<P>Sheba

Rachel,<P>You need to take things one step at a time. For the marriage, for your husband, for your kids, for the money, but first & foremost for you.<P>Ask yourself this question. "Do I love my husband and do I want to stay married?" Now think about this for a bit. Don’t worry about how he is acting now or what he has done in the past.<P>After you decide what it is you want to do, then you can make a plan. If you want a divorce (I don’t think you do at this point), then go for it.<P>If you want your husband & marriage back you must act now! Please remember that what you do may NOT save the relationship. There is nothing that can guarantee it will work. But if you follow Harleys principles to the letter, chances are MUCH, MUCH better you will succeed. If he does not come back, then you will have no regrets over what you have done. You will have grown and learned so much over a short time and any relationship you have in the future will be so much better. You can “survive the affair,” with much less trauma than if you did not follow a plan.<P>If you choose to try and save the marriage, you’re gonna have to bite the bullet & put up with some crap from your h. Do Plan A. NO LOVEBUSTERS! None, zilch, zero. I suggest you get the book Love Busters by Dr Willard Harley. <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6030_love.html" TARGET=_blank>www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6030_love.html</A> <P>Your h is confused as to what he wants. It’s “normal” under his circumstances. You seem to be confused as to what you really want also. You keep giving him mixed messages and he doesn’t know what you’re thinking or how you want to proceed. If you straighten yourself out & let him know, then you stand a chance. He’s gonna try & get you to go back to being wishy washy. DON’T LET HIM GET TO YOU. Slow & steady. If you do a Love Buster, then stop yourself, apologize and tell him you’re working on that type of problem. Don’t let it happen again. It’s extremely important to “protect” your h from your outbursts.<P>If you feel the need to exact revenge on him, then you won’t be able to do this. Why do you love your h? Why did you get married? Do you really & truly want to hurt him?<P>Stop, take some time & think about what you really & truly want at this point.<P>I see so much confusion, anger, hurt and wanting to “get even” in your posts. It’s a normal reaction to a very real & traumatic event in your life. It has shattered your entire world. Take it easy & understand what you want to do.<P>Rachel, nothing would please me more than to see someone on this board get back together and have a fantastic relationship. I so wish I was in your shoes! Don’t lose this opportunity to do what I feel you really want to do.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html</A> <BR><p>[This message has been edited by Chris (CA123) (edited September 30, 1999).]

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