Well, at least, it's not considered your mortgage debt.



Slammed, I'm shaking my head...Been there done that..You are not going to make sense of this..A WH is an alien being that you will never understand...Their R with the OW is a return to their youth..it's about fantasy..it is not anything like a NORMAL relationship from what I can understand about it..the problem is when they try to NORMALIZE the R...it does not work....THAT'S THE VALUE OF PLAN B..give him a chance TO TRY to make it normal and real...



If you buy the addiction theory, at all, he will not go to counseling to work on his issues. He will go to counseling to encourage the counselor to ENABLE his A. All he cares about right now is to continue getting his HIGH with the OW. My FWH was in counseling and all they talked about was how awful a wife that I was..allowing my H to justify his A to himself. One unforgettable weekend, he called me just before his session, saying "I'm going to my session" and then stayed gone from Friday until Monday..cellphone off..no phone call... nothing...I called the counselor concerned about the content of the session...of course, she didn't call me back...a weekend full of sleepless nights...SILLY AND FOOLISH ME...YUCK!!!

What did Jennifer have to say about your situation?

I think PLAN B will have "thunder" for you regardless of when you do it. The main thing is to not begin PLAN B until you are at a point where you will not need to have contact with your H. You will need to be able to remain DARK. I think it would be great to do it when he is SUFFERING the most and will want your comfort and you will not be available....

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Thanks, Mimi.
I agree that the A is nothing like a "real" relationship
and think that OW and WH already found that out back when
their A first started and they tried to make it into a
"real relationship."
They had met online, talked for hours, then both flew to
Vegas to meet, followed by WH flying to her town and helping her move here (she was coming here already due to her job). He immediately moved in with her, and from what they've both said, and the correspondence between them that OW sent me, they were fighting, fussing, insecure, and dis-trusting right from the start.
After OW called me and found out WH had lied about a lot of
things (especially that he wasn't "in the middle of a D"),
OW kicked WH out, and they had the first of several "break
ups". WH rented a room at a local club, and soon after they
resumed seeing each other, and that continued until he got
the DUI, cooled things off, and we had our "false recovery".

I was glad when OW kicked WH out, and thought them living
apart was a good thing, but now that I think of it, maybe
them staying together would have been better because all the
LB's might have ended the A by now. Seems like their "date"
arrangement now gives them both some freedom, just "fun" and good times, and few LB's, while it must supply both of their needs, and that makes me feel very discouraged about it ending because it doesn't seem like there's much pressure
on either (?) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
WH has said he likes "being on his own, alone, and doing his
own thing" and that he has no plans to ever marry OW (not
that he's a reliable source) and I have no idea of whether
or not OW wants to marry WH, however she is near 40, never
married, no kids, and seems very clingy, and desperate so
maybe that's exactly what she wants !

I don't know if WH will continue his IC on his own, or not.
He initially went very willingly (he initiated it) because
of the depression and anxiety after his DUI, and then for
help with the new diagnoss of the bipolar disorder. I went
along strictly as a "moral support" and to give some input
on his behavior, adjustment to meds, moods, etc. and just
primarily sat in the room, listening, and not talking.
We didn't discuss anything about the A, "us", or the M,
at all, just had said we had been seperated but were trying
to work things out (this was during our "false recovery").
The A came up in discussion once I found out it was back on,
and has been discussed a little at each session since,during
which Wh has repeated his same old "script". ("enabling" as
you have said). This is the reason I thought it might be
best if I didn't go anymore, so he wouldn't have a reason
to keep spouting the same old stuff, and might get back to
working on his real issues ! (But you're right, he might
just decide to stop altogether, and if so, guess there's
nothing I can do about that).

I talked to Jennifer right after the A resumed in February,
and she mostly discussed how we had tried to go into a
recovery without putting all the "extrordinary precautions"
into place. She suggested doing Plan A since WH was still
at home, hoping that WH and OW would have had enough of the
"break up, make up" cycle, that OW's constant calling,
paranoid and insecurity would wear WH out, and be a big LB.
She thought that WH's DUI, the depression/anxiety, and me
going to WH's Dr appt and counseling were all in my/the M
favor since they all led WH to want "familiarity, comfort,
and support".

Since I'll have to see and deal with WH to get this land
sale done, I guess it sounds like it'd be best to wait until
after that to give him the PBL and go dark. I should know
soon when that will be and it should be this month, as I
think there was a time limit on the "closing".
I am a bit "leary" about his court date (April 25), and how
that might affect things, as anything from a postponement,
to his having to do a "work release" (work in day, jail at
night), to time in actual jail are possibilities.

In the meantime, until I'm in "B", should I be doing "A",
although seperated ?? Sounds like I should not do the
"180's" since WH seems to need admiration- thanks for that
info !
Slammed

Sounds like I should not do the
"180's" since WH seems to need admiration- thanks for that
info !


what exactly of his latest actions makes him admirable...

falsely giving credence to a WS acting very very badly is a OP's job...built of lies....

I say expose him to 180's if not going to plan B ASAP

calls you with the OW in the background...
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

ark

Slammed,

Do you think you may just be scared to go to Plan B?

It seems to me that you are looking for reasong NOT to go to Plan B, instead of looking for reasons TO GO TO Plan B.

At one point Slammed you got to ask yourself what is it that you want. IF you want to save your M, then YOU got to move to plan B. YOU have been in Plan A long enough. There is a reason that Plan B exists! You have done an excellent Plan A. By itself it has not brought your H back to the M. So, it is time to step up. You can plan A forever if you choose to. I don't see how that will bring your H home AND keep your LB high. Don't see it.


So, start looking for reasons to go to plan B. WRITE THEM DOWN!

Stop looking for reasons NOT to go to plan B. You will always find that reason.

YOU need to ACT slammed. You have been annalyzing for months.

Take care.....

Daisy

Thanks, Ark~
My reference about "not doing the 180's" was in regards
to Mimi's earlier message where she said Steve Harley
had specifically told her not to do "180" since one of
her WH's big EN's was "admiration". My WH has never
filled out the EN survey, but I would definitely guess
that Admiration is high on his list.
As you know, I've done some "180s", and they have seemed
to get a bit of WH's attention, but now that he's moved
out don't have as much chance to do either Plan A or
180's.
Nothing of his actions, words or behavior is "admirable"-
ya got that right !!!

WDaisy~
No, I'm not scared about going to Plan B. I actually feel
quite comfortable about it, and think it will be harder for WH because he's the one who calls me, initiates contact, asks for help, needs support, etc. while I am okay on my own, can find things to do, figure out things for myself, and have friends, family (and MB !)for support.

I've just been reading, and getting so many different
opinions here, from friends, family, and two different
therapists, that it gets to be a real "muddled" mess in
my mind and I throw out all my thoughts and worries and
vent here to get some clarity and other's thoughts.

I am working on my letter, and have thought through most of
the details on actually "implementing", which should be
quite easy since my WH is pretty predictable.
Although I found out I can't "lock" WH out of the house,
I can arrange not to be there if I know he's coming over,
will keep our necessary communication regarding finances,
etc. to minimum and on email, and can avoid most of his
calls (no caller ID at work and am required to answer
phone, but he normally doesn't call me at the office).
I'm just waiting to go to "B" since I know I'm going to
have to see and deal with him on this sale of our land,
which should be this month.

I don't know what the outcome or his response or behavior
will be (same as anyone here), and know there are no
guarantees, but can't say I'm terribly optomistic right now.
My reasons for feeling negative:
WH just seems to sure of his "wants to be alone, wants to
be on his own, and have his own things" and I feel like he's
unlikely to change his "stand".

The A has lingered on a long time now, even despite several
break-ups, moves, and "drama" with OW. Even things that
should have been huge LB's ( OW calling me to expose A and
get "dirt" on WH, OW calling WH's XGF to expose affair to
his daughter and Mom, OW listening to and deleting WH's
cell phone calls,OWs questioning, constant calling, paranoid, calling my house, leaving nasty messages, mailing me their "love notes" and gross photos, the unplanned pregnancy, WH running up huge bills, the DUI... and more.)

WH having the house and means to have a good old time living
"single". Seems like he's starting to fit the "mold" he desires such as having a nice house on the golf course with
hot tub, new furniture, etc... (all the MLC "toys".

I know most of these could change should the addiction end
and WH get out of the fog, but feel like he's made so much
more history (recently) with OW that most of our good times,
memories and history have faded away too much to affect WH.

For those reasons, I also don't fear going to Plan B, as
I don't think it can hurt !
Thanks,
Slammed

Slammed, this is part of the lie..

He does not want to be on his own. He wants to be with the OW.



This is why it is time to do something different from your end. Let them IMPLODE ON EACH OTHER as they maintain an obviously SICK RELATIONSHIP....You won't allow him to use you as a respite from this. They can live in their own self-imposed he//.



Following the standard script..well, this was my FWH's MLC Script..bought his condo/bachelor pad with plans to "play house" with the OW..Guess what?..He got LONELY over there in his pristine environment and ended up moving in with her in her RAT-TRAP NEIGHBORHOOD and HOUSE...Good riddance..It was the first nail on the coffin, leading to the death of their "LOVE AFFAIR"....He will find that "ALL THAT GLITTERS IS NOT GOLD"...There's a good chance that he will be pining away over the loss of his REAL HOME with YOU....Know that your presence in his life is more valuable than where he lives..."A HOUSE IS NOT A HOME"....

Try to develop more confidence in yourself, Slammed, and what you have to offer to anyone..any man..including your husband...you wouldn't stoop as low as to call a man at his own home like that trashy OW....



Again..you need to have more confidence, Slammed..your memories and history with your WH will definitely not fade away..their relationship is based on SINKING SAND..no one knows that better than that trashy OW..once in Plan B, she will let her guard down even more and show who she really is... your relationship with him is based on SOLIDITY and STABILITY-SOLID ROCK....he knows that..and has been able to depend on that SOLID ROCK for much too long during this mess...

I think, though, that you should go out in PLAN A GLORY...invite him to dinner at a restaurant to finalize your land business..or whatever..wear your sexiest dress..in his favorite color..get the phone call as suggested by ARK..hand him the letter as you leave...better yet, invite him over to dinner..with candles burning, etc...rush him out after the phone call alluding to plans...then hand him the letter..lock the door...of course, the locks have already been changed..he can get a key..if he asks..necessary to change the locks for your safety..given that you are living alone now....

I'm getting carried away here, I know... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Thanks, Mimi, for the reminder that the A is a very "sick"
relationship and destined to fail. (sure hope so !)

Just feels worse the longer it drags on, since it's more
time for WH and OW to create their own "history", spend
holiday together, etc. (of course, you know what a lovely
Christmas they had, since WH got the DUI on Christmas Eve !)
You've encouraged me a bit though, because I am thinking
about all the big LB's between them, and remembered that
they all ocurred without any of my help, some even before
I knew about the A !

Glad to hear the "swingin bachelor pad" isn't always so fun
and great ! When I think of WH at the new house, I don't
envy him because it just seems "empty" and "lifeless"
without the dog running around, music playing, and "stuff"
around. And- unless he's lying and has gotten a bunch of
new furniture (probably not due to his big credit card bills) all he's got is a bedroom set, desk, tv's, curio cabinet and few other misc things- no where to even sit down and enjoy eating or watching the fancy new "flat" TV !
I'm sure OW has been there (and probably tried out the hot
tub- yuck !) but since she has dogs and horses to tend to, it's probably more likely that more of their time together is at her house (at least 30-40 minutes away).

From what WH said while they were supposedly "broken up"
sounded like OW mostly goes to work and home, and isn't too
big on going out or doing much. (kind of a "homebody")
She lives out in the "woods" on the edge of town, rather isolated. Sounded like their typical weekend was WH renting a movie and sometimes picking up a pizza to take there on Sat. night, them eating together in the morning, and him leaving to run his errands, etc. Of course, I know they
had a real exciting sex life since I have the pictures to
prove it (those she sent me, which is just GROSS <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I feel confident in myself to some degree- not that I think
I am "Ms. Fabulous", a supermodel, or have done everything
perfectly, but I definitely don't view OW as a "competitor".
A good friend of mine (male) told me "she's not even on the same planet, not even in the same universe" as you are", which made me feel good <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I view OW as being a very sleazy, trashy, desperate person who is very manipulative, dishonest and totally lacking in morals. I've also seen her, so know she isn't "all that" !!

She apparently thinks she's really "something" though- and
has continued to "bust" on WH all along, with her very
manipulative actions, putting guilt trips on him, and the
constant questions and non-stop calling to see where he is,
what he's doing, etc.

I hope that some of our good times and things WH enjoyed
about our home, family, memories, etc. will stick with him
through the fog. Just seems like he values those things less
and less as time goes on, and we've not had much change to
build anything new or recent (although we did do a few
fun things during our brief "reconciliation"). I don't think
there's been much more I could have done, as far as making Lbank deposits, at least in my view.

WH called late yesterday afternoon, said he'd like to stop
by the house last night to work on one of the blankets (he
has to make five "no sew, "indian style" blankets for his
community service project from the DUI). I was home, had the house neat, nice, and smelling good, and had touched myself up when he got there. Offered him some dinner, and
helped him with the pinning part of his task. (couldn't
even visualize OW helping with something like that !)

Felt bad, as when I got home, WH's daughter (DS13) had left
a long message for her Dad. She talked about doing well in
school, sports she is involved in, and her dogs, then said
she was not happy at home, her Mom was acting "weird", she
didn't like her Mom's boyfriend or daughter, and wondered
if she could come live with WH starting next year !
Made me feel really sad for her and her living situation,
as her Mom is a pretty sleazy person - three kids all with different fathers, divorced, few job skills, moves
often depending on her "boyfriend of the month", and relies
heavily on this daughter to babysit the others.
Despite that, DS13 is a pretty well balanced and nice girl, and she and I have always gotten along very well.
I don't think her Mother would ever allow her to come live
with WH in a million years, and certainly not just with him
without me (she likes me and realizes I've been the primary
care-taker when DS13 has visited). Also made me feel bad
to think that she already has problems with her Mom, and
then has a Dad who has mental illness, is having an A,
and has upcoming legal issues !
I told WH when he was there, and he did call her. She didn't
mention living with him,but did say she'd like to come visit
WH when school gets out for summer. She's asked before to
come and stay a month or more in the summer, but WH has not
ever done that, as neither of us had that much time off,
and we didn't want to leaver her home alone all day, both
for safety and thinking it would be a real drag for her.
I hope WH will at least try to see her for a short visit
soon, although I don't know if he'd want to have her at the
new house, with just "him" having to entertain her, and
don't know if he'd want her to have any exposure to OW.
She lives about 4 hours away, so hard to have her for just
a weekend, since much of the time is used up in the driving
back and forth. Made me feel like what a mess !

Later last night, WH called. Said he'd forgotten to take
more of his meds from the house when he was there. I was
irritated since it's so important he sticks to his meds on
time, and thought he'd taken all his supply with him.
He has to be near our house today when he goes to a Dr.appt
so is planning to stop and pick it up.
Hopefully he'll find out something at the Dr appt. He has a
very sore, swollen toe, and doesn't know what he did to it.
He went to the Dr Mon and they had no idea, so drew blood
and put him on a big dose of antibiotics in case it is an infection. Maybe the OW gave him some disease !!! (okay,
I'm bad).

I love your idea of ending up Plan A with a bang, Mimi and
will plan to do just that !
Last thought- WH's IC is tomorrow night. Last week, IC asked
us both to write down some things we could do ourselves to
"expand our horizons", and some goals for ourselves within
one year and three years. I think she is trying to take the
focus and pressure off "us", due to her comment that she
wondered what would happen if we could do that, relieve some
of the "co-dependency" of WH, and work on our own selves
while not severing our relationship (she's trying to slow
WH down on his path to D).
I was thinking of going, but not getting into M talk (so as to avoid giving WH a forum to talk about his "needs to be alone" again), and to also say that it would be the last time I'd come along, so that WH could just continue to work
on his issues since there's no M issues to work on while A
is continuing. Thoughts ???

Slammed

Sounds like you and I have the same OW.

They must have a script, too.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Yes, the OW's seem to follow a standard "script" just like
the WS's. I hope mine has the same "happy ending" as yours
at least.

Quick update-
WH called, then stopped by the house again Wed night, to
work on another of his "community service" blankets.
He seemed tired and sort of grouchy, but completed the
project and then left to get to his volleyball game.

Yesterday, he called later in the afternoon to verify the
time of his IC (he's the one with a huge "Day Timer", so
don't know why he can't keep track of his appointments).
I had again debated going with him- don't know if the
IC is helping "slow" him down on the D track, or if he's
wanting to go so he can come up with more justications
and excuses for the A !
Decided I'd go until I am in Plan B. IC asked how we each were doing and feeling.WH said he had been very busy with work, getting settled in the house, preparing for his upcoming legal stuff, and dealing with his medical problem for the past week, so hadn't really had much time to just "sit and relax" but still felt some "comfort and relief" by having the house of his own to go to.
I asked if he didn't think that was because it made it much
easier to continue on with OW without having to keep up a
pretense with me, trying to hide the contact, lie about what
he was doing ,etc. He said, "No, because he was spending
most of his time alone, not with OW, and that things with her were not nearly what I thought they were."

IC asked what we felt was the "next step" ? and what did
we think as far as just letting things "be" without having
to make a decision or do anything right now. She mentioned
that the general "thought" by most therapist, counselors,
Dr's, etc. was that a person should not make a big, major
decision during trauma (such as WH's DUI and legal issues)
or adjusting to meds and having a bout of mental/emotional
illness without giving it at least 6 mos, which she may
be saying to keep WH from rushing into D, but I've tried
to avoid discussing any specific time frame, knowing Plan
B may take some time.

Later in the discussion, we got into a couple things that
were interesting to me. WH has mentioned several times that
he felt our relationship/the M was "safe and stable", but
that he didn't always want to be "safe and stable".
I asked if he was equating "safe and stable" w/ "boring"?? He didn't ever outright answer that, but said he felt like
things had been very routine, "bland", and he just didn't
feel very "alive". IC asked what he would do differently,
what would make him feel "alive" and the examples he gave
were "having someone call and suggest a trip last minute
and deciding to go", "not having to always have things
planned out in advance ", "someone else coming up with ideas
about things to do,so he didn't always have to plan things".
I ws surprised at these, as I felt like I've always been the
one to want to do things, suggest trips or activities, ask
if he'd like to go out to dance, movie, friends house, etc.
and have always planned our trips- not him !

Then WH talked about the area of career/money. Said he felt
like he was very career-driven, ambitious, wanted success
and had worked hard to "work his way up", still would like
to be his own boss and have his own company in the future.
Said he felt like he needed to be with someone who was "his
equal", also driven and ambitious, wanting success, and who
would "challenge" him. I knew he'd say I wasn't doing that,
as he's mentioned at times feeling like I was just content
to work in my stable job, be satisified with not making lots
of pay or big opportunities to move up, and not wanting to
jump into something new with more possiblities.
I would agree that this is somewhat true- I have worked in
my chosen field for 20 years now, 18 of it in one job that
I liked, and although I never made big pay, it was enough
for my needs, and had good benefits (travel industry).
Benefits have gone done in recent years, and I've talked
about doing something else, but haven't known what to do
with a limited skill set and not feeling that I we could
afford the time/money to not be working while I went to
school.
WH brought up that he felt I'd had a good opportunity to
change when I lost my job about 1.5 years ago (worked for
a govt. contractor and we lost our contract). Said he felt
I should have used that chance to do something new, but that
when I'd stuck in the same field, taking a lower paying job,
he felt I "copped out", and lost some respect for me.
(He never said this at the time though, and didn't address
what the money difficulties with one less income, loss of
benefits, etc. would have been).

IC began to talk about people in any type relationship
sometimes becoming "incompatible", and at that, I really
got angry and upset, because WH has, so many times, used
this as his "M.O." for why we supposedly don't have a good
M or shouldn't stay together. (He told OW that we just
weren't "compatible" and that we had been told this by
numerous MC, which was NOT true). Said I felt like there
were people with enormous difference of all types that had
excellent marriages, didn't think you had to like all the
same things, etc. and was not accepting of the concept of
being "incompatible", felt it was an excuse for A, just like
his "wanting to be alone" speech, and that he had totally
failed to discuss or approach the fact that he was and is
having an A. I think I surprised both IC and WH, although
I didn't really "go off", but at that we were out of time.
IC started to schedule next session, and I said I felt that
last night was going to be my last time coming, because WH
was supposed to be working on his issues, not MC, and that
I felt he was using the session as his "forum" to find more
excuses and reasons to justify his A. IC said it was up to
me, but urged us (WH and me) to continue discussing issues
and to keep an open mind about things. I tried to talk to
WH a little when we left, as I was bothered by the things
that had come up, but he wasn't willing to discuss, so it
was very frustrating. Don't know if I can try to use the
session to my benefit, continuing to bring out A, and not
letting WH try to find excuses to "justify" his behavior,
or if I should just quit going and leave him and IC to talk
about whatever... ???? What are everyone's thoughts ?

Headed home, and WH came over too- to work on another of his
"blankets" (community service for his DUI). We both seemed
tired, I know I was feeling frustrated and upset, and WH
seemed very tired, had the sore foot (was diagnosed with
gout yesterday) and was grouchy. Worked on the project with
him- but we were "fussing" alot, picking back and forth,
making little comments, and I felt an odd uneasiness. When
done, WH layed on the floor to play with the dog, and even
started tickling and almost "flirting" with me. He was very tired, and got up to leave, almost acting like he wanted to just stay at our house, but said "he couldn't, because he had the other home". (maybe OW calls to check on him being there).
I said "well, neither of us has a home now, they are just
both houses", and he asked "what did that mean ?"
Didn't comment, just said bye and went on to bed, as I was
feeling really down and tired. I guess it is good for IC
to make you think, but I thought too much, all night, and
dreamt about it too, so woke up tired, hot, confused and
still frustrated-

Didn't think about it until today, and wasn't expecting us
to do anything, but am really bothered that it'll be yet
another holiday that WH spends with OW. (Easter) I'd guess
they'll probably go out to a nice brunch, like they did at
Thanksgiving, even though WH said he's not doing anything.
I guess I'll be going to church and maybe have dinner with
my parents, but sure am not feeling much of a spring or
easter mood !

Have got the rough draft of my PBL, but didn't bring it to
work with me, so will post over weekend from home.
WH is trying to get the "closing" on our land sale to be
before April 25, since that's his court date and he doesn't
know what's going to happen there. Felt sad to realize that
WH has not asked me to go with him to court, so I'd guess
OW must be going to drive him and act as his "moral support".

Happy Easter/Passover to everyone.
Slammed

slammed

i too am hurting at the thought of my H spending another holiday with OW

i miss the man i knew and loved so very much...

as you prepare to go into plan B....enjoy every moment you can with your H and leave him with the best impression possible

You go ahead and change those locks. Do you think he is going to call the police about it? Doubt it. When you go to plan B he will know that he is not welcome to come over whenever he wants. Let him see you are serious. Let him squirm for awhile.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I get so FRUSTRATED by this counselor, Slammed. You are INTERPRETING what YOU THINK she is saying and your WH is talking a bunch of bull crap..

Again, what about your MAJOR TRAUMA..your WH abandoning you for another woman...Are you the only one in the room that sees the PURPLE ELEPHANT?



He's saying that the affair makes him HIGH..he is speaking about the ADDICTION..how she is a DRUG DEALER....



As I said on the other thread, he is speaking as a WS now..he is REWRITING HISTORY..standard part of the WS script... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> This counseling is so useless..really gives him opportunity to further rationalize his A..the therapist is ENABLING him...YUCK...

It sickens me that you had to sit there and allow him to put you down.. All Bull CRAP..it is DISRESPECTFUL...NOT PLAN A...

Why is he talking about you in his IC..he should be talking about himself...and what he needs to work on...YUCK...



So you see..not a Pro-marriage, therapist...

I can hear Steve Harley saying.."You were compatible enough to get married..Was your MARRIAGE A MISTAKE?..How insulting!!



GOOD FOR YOU SLAMMED! BRAVO! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />



THAT'S MY GIRL!!! GOOD STUFF!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I say definitely do not go back. That therapist is certainly not helping you, your H or your marriage, IMO....


This is more valuable than anything that occurred during the counseling. It's the other way around..he has a "house"..he was at "home" with you....

Slammed, there's no way that you can know the what really goes on between him and the OW..their holiday probably won't be as great as you think...

Take good care....

Thanks, Mimi. You are a great help in getting my "racing"
mind and thoughts down in to more "digestible" bits !!

As you can tell, I too have now gotten really frustated
with WH's counselor. I had really liked her at first, as
when WH first started to go to work on "his issues" she
seemed very perceptive, and good at "pinpointing" things
quickly. However, since we've started talking more about
the A and our marriage "issues", I feel almost like she's
not sure what to do with us ! That's been disappointing
when it seems to start out so well and I was impressed
that she had lots of experience, credentials, is a good
listener, "Christian" counselor, and herself divorced (I
think) which I thought might make her more "sympathetic"
and helpful.
I definitely did try to be quite "assertive" because I wanted both WH and the IC to realize that I was not going along with WH's "story", or allowing him to just sit there and try to sound like such a "poor victim" who has tried so
hard, put up with so much, made a lot of effort in the M
and now just has to explore his "being on his own" when I
know darn well that so much of what he says and does is the
A and not all this other "stuff" he's throwing into the mix!

I think another big frustration is that WH hates to talk,
so we get some things "thrown out there" in the IC sessions,
but he won't talk about it later, so it just stays "out
there" and doesn't get resolved.
Only thing I've been able to get from WH since last week
was asking him if he'd continue to go to IC (without me)
to which he says "yes", and asking him what he wanted to
work on (of his issues) and hoped to accomplish in IC,
to which he said "he didn't know" (?) Seems pretty stupid
to me spend the time and money, if he doesn't even really
know why he's there !!?

I love your explanation of his affair giving him the "high"
of an addiction and the OW being the drug dealer ! I think
this is "right on". But, how to convince someone that "real
life" can be as "exciting" and end the addiction ???? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I'm not sure that I had the "wording" right ,as far as him
saying he couldn't stay at our "house", because he had the
other "home" (could have been other way around) but thought
it was interesting that he seemed rather tempted to just
stay. Of course, I don't put a lot of meaning in that, as
it could have just been that he was tired, foot hurt, and
he missed the dog, not me !

The weekend was okay. I was out of the office Fri afternoon
to work at a media event, and WH left me a message to say
he had deposited money in our joint checking for a bill that
needed to go out. (I have the checkbook) Later when I got
home, his daughter had left a message, so I called his cell
to pass it on, and got his voicemail, so naturally figured
he was with OW.
Sat. I had a Dr appt., then ran to the store. WH called,
didn't even mention the message I had left, but asked if he
had told me about depositing the money (sometimes calls
when he doesn't really seem to have a reason- just an excuse
to call ?) He seemed grouchy, and in a rush. I started to
ask him a question about what he planned to do regarding
IC, and what "we" were going to do (in the context of what
his IC said about us not doing anything right now) and he
was very negative and nasty- saying "He didn't want to
figure anything out right now, "we" weren't doing anything,
and he "he didn't want to talk about anything". (gee, a
real surprise). Hung up feeling really annoyed with his
rudeness and never being willing to talk. Later, after
thinking about it, I called back, got his VM (probably on
his usual Sat night "date" with OW) and just said "realized
he wasn't a big fan of talking, but didn't feel he needed
to be rude or short, and I didn't feel it was asking alot to
just know how he felt or what he thought, rather then trying
to read his mind or assume", but that after further thought
I realized "WE" couldn't get anywhere and there really
wasn't much of anything else to say as long as he was still
involved with OW". (kind of a "Plan B" message )
Went about my day as best as I could yesterday- just did
laundry, housework and yardwork, but enjoyed a nice lunch
with my parents, playing with the dog, and the beautiful,
warm day. Figured WH probably took OW out to some Easter
brunch (did at Thanksgiving) and didn't expect I'd hear from
him, however he did call last night. Said he'd been working
on the house (although he's been saying that ever since he
moved, and there couldn't be that much to do !) and had been
to some home-improvement stores, and was looking for an open
fast food place as he headed "home". He asked what I was
doing, about the dog, and a few financial issues. He didn't
mention my message to him at all, but I tried to keep it
short, and was rather cool to him, trying to keep with what
I had said in my message. (good idea ?)
In thinking about it lately, I've become annoyed that WH
always seems to follow such a predictable pattern, part of
which is his keeping the "status quo". Realized I have to
be the one to "shake things up", because he just sticks to
his same old patterns ! (and I'm the one who's boring and
bland, remember ? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LAter, his daughter called again. She had left a couple of
long messages last week, and in one mentioned she is not
happy at home, doesn't like her Mom's BF or his kids, and
wondered about coming to live with WH. He later talked to
her but she didn't say anything about that- just mentioned
coming for a visit. However, in last night's message, she
made a comment about wanting to ask him something that might
come as a "shock", so I have a feeling she's going to
approach living with him again. I feel certain her Mom would never agree to her moving with WH (she's old enough be a helper and often babysitter for her other kids, plus
she'd lose the child support) and especially if she knew WH and I aren't together !! I don't think WH would want to have
her full-time either, as it'd just be too much effort and
trouble for him, and of course, would interfere with his
"exciting" bachelor life ! I feel for the child though,
as her living situation has never been too good, and felt
sad realizing WH is not in any position to do her any good
with all his issues, the DUI, the OW ! Really, he's not
been much of a father- other than financially.

One more week until WH's court date on the DUI. I'm sure
he must be getting nervous, but he's not said much, and
never asked me to go with him.

You're right- never any way to know what's really going on
between and WH and OW. When I thought about it, they
probably just went out to eat and "hung out" at one of their
houses. Have had some dreams lately of doing devious things
to make them LB with each other, but hope the "real thing"
will end up happening soon.
Thanks for the continued support and thoughts-
Shall I still hold off on the full Plan B until we get the
land sale done ?
Slammed

Noticed WH had tried to call me at work a couple of times
this afternoon, but had customers and didn't answer.
Came home and he was here- had changed clothes, loaded
a few more of his things in his car, and was sitting
at the table, working on the last of his "blankets"
(community service project).
I said hello and went upstairs to change clothes.
Came down and helped some with the "fringing" part of
his project. Noticed he looked tired, needs a haircut,
has gained weight (too much fast food) and just looks
"lackluster" to me.
Didn't talk much, but WH really surprised me by asking
if I really thought things could change (with us) and
why ? I tried to think very carefully about my reply,
then said that I had always believed in "us", and always
believed that people and things could change, just took
determination and sincere effort to do so. Said I thought,
in case of us, we could use some changes in things like
communication, since our current "style" seemed to be
frustrating to both of us. Said I thought we could truly
"shake things up" and find that our lives and our M were
not "bland or boring". Hope I didn't go too far, but as
he seemed to actually be listening for a change, I also
said "the fun and excitement you get from OW is like a
high a person gets from drinking or drugs, but like those
things, it has a down-side, isn't real life, and doesn't
last- but real life, and REAL love is forever."
(Thanks, MIMI, I got this idea from your last post)
Told WH he had been one of the most disciplined people I'd
ever known (not recently, obviously, but in the past he was)
and knew he could "break free" if he wanted to do so.
Also said there were great counselors at MB that could help
if he'd rather do that than go to the IC he has now.
WH didn't say much, except that he was tired (usually means
he's reached his limit on talking or listening to anything
related to feelings) so just finished up and he left after
he finished his project.

I know it doesn't mean anything has changed, but felt a
little good thinking something might have possibly gotten
through the FOG. (??) Realize though, that it kind of
blew the "Plan B" message I left him on the phone Sat., so
may either confuse him, make him think I'm "wishy washy",
or do nothing and him just go back to "status quo" ???
Wow, I'd sure just like to see inside his brain long enough
to get a clue to what's going on in there !
(on second thought, might be too scary)

Tired, and just going to eat and relax before trying to get
to bed earlier- Ive just felt wiped out lately.
Slammed

i'm glad that you had this good moment with your H

i'm praying for you that it made an impact!

Thanks, EAV.
I appreciate your support and all prayers too.
Seems like WH does have a few moments of clear thinking
amidst the fog, but hard to tell.
Even though I didn't expect it necessarily meant anything,
I was disappointed when I later tried to call WH and his
phone went straight to message, which I think means it
is shut off. He normally has it on 24/7, so if shut off
makes me feel like he must have been with OW and not wanted
any calls.
There's no cell service at her house (lives in a heavily
wooded area on edge of town) so he wouldn't have to worry
about it there, so must have been at his house - yuck <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
Just thinking about OW being at "his" (our) house makes
my blood boil- especially with our furniture there, and
things that give her a "glimpse" into our old life.
If WH and I ever get back together, I certainly would want
all new stuff that's never been tainted by that *person* !!

I know it's pointless to try to figure out any of what WH
thinks or feels, and even more so to try to figure out
anything about OW since I know less about her, but I have
been wondering lately if she actually thinks WH is being
honest and faithful and that they have a "real" relation-
ship now (since the last breakup) or if she really knows
it's not, but is so desperate for "someone" that she doesn't
care and forges ahead anyway. Or, is it now that she has to
"win" over me, to prove how much better, sexier, more
"fun", more "ambitious", wealthier, etc.... she is than me
regardless of everything else (like a competition)?
Also, as paranoid and insecure as she seemed to be about
everything before , I'd find it hard to believe she'd
suddenly stop all her calling, checking up, "watching WH
like a hawk", questioning, etc. but can say there's not been
one single call here since WH moved out.
I guess to her, his moving out must make her think he's
really serious about ending his M and moving on, (I'm sure
he continues to tell her he's "working on" the D) but I'm
sure she doesn't know about MB either !

It's turned into a windy, cool night and I'm off to bed.
Slammed

A major rule in WH 101, Slammed...

Actions speak louder than words.

Disregard most of what he says. Don't worry yourself with wanting to talk to him or have him to talk to you. A lot of what the WH says is a lie. He is is being deceitful to his counselor and to you. He is talking to hear himself talk and to rationalize continuation of his affair. My H even said this, continues to say this: "Watch my actions, don't listen to my words....Focus on the fact that he didn't want to leave your "home" for example. Get it?

Next rule:

When the cellphone is off and you get voicemail, he is with the OW.

This is another standard part of the script that your WH is following....




Next lesson:

Your WH is the classic cake-eater... just like my WH..perfect for Plan B. What he is doing is trying to keep you waiting..over to the side..just in case it does not work out with the OW...a part of him knows that it is not going to work out..YUK...You meet needs that she does not meet and he does not want to let you go...calls you on the way home after having his weekend fun with her..YUK...STANDARD CAKE-EATER'S SCRIPT..Been there, Slammed...



Just make sure that there is no reason to actually meet with him face-to-face or talk to him prior to going into Plan B. That would be the only reason to wait...

You are going to get tired of this real fast..

An important part of Plan B is also to safeguard your love for him...

His deceitfulness and cake-eating will become more and more apparent to you..

I'm glad you said that stuff about the addiction to him. He grasped a bit of what you said, I think...He knows that he gets HIGH off of her and is probably surprised that you picked up on this...Good preparation for the Plan B letter...and PLAN B...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

"a kind-of Plan B message"

Pardon the 2x4, but when I read this I just stopped reading the rest of your post and other subsequent replies to you.

There's no such thing as "a kind-of Plan B message". You're either in Plan B or you're not.

He's out living on his own and monkeying around with OW.

What are you going to do? What's your plan? Not a kind-of plan - a real plan. Do you have one?

Em

Very good points Mimi- !
I definitely agree that actions speak louder than words.
Have to remind myself this is WH talking, and for as little
as he ever wants to talk, he's pretty good at using what he
says as manipulation! I think he's been doing this all his
life sadly, so has a lot of practice !
Even with all that in mind, it's still hard sometimes to
seperate WH from H. Really ticked me off after the brief
talk we had that he apparently had left our house and headed
right off to meet with OW- the duplicity of his WS behavior
still amazes me !
I bet they were at his house too, as I remembered later that
WH had a phone call while at our house. He has a habit of
looking at his phone and saying (out loud) the number that
is calling, like he's trying to figure out who it is.
He said a certain number which sounded familiar to me, and
I realized this morning that it's his old business number,
which I think he may have transferred to that new house.
If that was the number calling, that may have meant OW was
at the house- yuck !!
I'd be surprised if he'd trust her that much, but makes me feel really hurt if he has given her a key and access card to the new house (it's in a gated area).
Shall I "sweetly" ask WH if he'd like me to have a key to
the house in "case of an emergency" ?? (just to be devious)

Glad you have experience with such a "cake eater", so this
makes some "sense" to you and sounds like it may even be to
my advantage when it comes to Plan B.

At times, I do think WH knows it's not going to ever "go anywhere" with OW- he's even made some negative comments
about her (during their "breakups") and from the behavior
I've seen she's very insecure, clingy and desperate acting,
which should drive him nuts ! Funny that it's still been
me he counts on for help, advise, and even still calls me
his "best friend", but continues to carry on with her !
Guess we can say ADDICT !!

I've been waiting until the land sale is done before I go
to Plan B, since I'll have to see WH to do that. He also
just advised me last night that I'll need to go to the appt.
with the accountants regarding our taxes. He says he's left
a message regarding both issues, and is pushing to get them
done before his court date, which is next week.

He's not said as much, but I'm sure his rush to get the
blankets done (project is now finished)as well as these
appointments taken care of is his court date next week.
Very hard to know how it will go, but at the preliminary
hearing the two options that were mentioned were his having
to do "Work Release" where he works in the day but has to
stay in jail at night, or an "alternate program" where he
does community service work full-time, but can stay at home
at night. This was his more preferred option, but would
require him to be off his job for 30-45 days, and I don't
know how he'd be able to do that. I don't think they
expected he'd get straight jail time, since there is a jail
overcrowding problem here, and also WH's Dr and counselor
have written statements to indicate he must have his
therapy and medication.
I sure hope he won't lose his job, as our finances are very dependent on his income and our health insurance is through him as well ! I have to admit I'm feeling nervous for him and scared of how his mental state will be with all this- the only times he's had a very bad panic attack and gone into severe type depression have been when he previously had to do a work release program (DUI in 2003) and when he got arrested with this one on Christmas.
I feel sad that he didn't ask me to go to court and has
not really involved me "in the loop" with this, but I'm
sure he must be getting plenty of "sympathy" and "support"
from OW.(Makes me sick to remember her "oogling" all over
him at Christmas when I came to pick him up from his arrest)
I was also hoping to have already been on Plan B for at least awhile before the court date, as I wondered if me
going to that Plan right at the time or just after his
court would backfire by seeming to be a "punishment" for
the DUI/court issues or a withdrawal of my caring or support
right when he really needed it ? Or should I not worry about
that ?

Slammed

This is just why you need Plan B, Slammed.

It is so hurtful to face the reality of what your WH is doing. Yes, she has a key. Yes, he gets right off the phone with her and calls you. Yes. Yes. Yes....This is why you have to remove yourself from this UGLY, NASTY STUFF...It was incredible to me..still is..how low my FWH sank...I hate to think about it..but will...if it helps somebody else,like you, from going through what I went through...YUCK!!



Yep..ADDICT..and CAKE-EATER..

Once you remove yourself from the equation, he will have to depend on her to meet all of his needs and SHE WILL FAIL..You see, you enable their relationship and make it tolerable for him. I lived this script, Slammed...know it well...

IMO, your only concern at this point should be making sure that you can STAY DARK during your PLAN B..that will probably be hard for you, I know...