Adrianc,

Nah, don't go crazy. Pepperband once asked someone on another thread in a galaxy far far away: <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> "What would you do if you were not afraid?"

I think you need to consider this very very carefully. You are REACTING to this situation. You need to start taking ACTION. This action can and should be meeting her needs as best you can while in plan A. It should include setting your boundaries with respect to her behavior. If you expect her to be civil to you, the children, and her parents while they are there, tell her. Make it clear you don't expect to be married to a woman and not hear a word from her for 40 hours.

What would you do if you were not afraid? That is the question you need to answer for yourself, and then use MB to do what you KNOW needs to be done. If she decides to leave she will leave. There is little you can do about that. What you can do, is decide how YOU will behave and interact with her and what your boundaries are.

You are acting out of fear and that is NOT good. She will never respect you if you keep this up, even as you do amazing things, which you have done. LEAD the parade AdrianC, don't follow it. Walking after the elephants and other animals usually means you step in it.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

LA,

I have read her emails today. It looks like my W is trying to break up with the OM, but he is not giving up. There were also ILYs in the chain of emails.
I got back home today and acted as usual showing respect to everybody and also played with the kids. My W was friendly... It's funny how I've changed my opinion about being friendly. Before, if she had acted like tonight I would’ve said that she was grumpy. But after no talk for 40 hours it seemed to me fantastic. I politely answered to all her questions.

Other than that, I went out with my FIL to buy some stuff for the DDs.

My W asked me what time the medical center in our area would open tomorrow. I checked the internet but no luck so she said she would go there tomorrow 7.30Am. I said OK but didn't ask her if she wanted me to go with her. Also she said that she has book two more appointments with the gynecologist and some other doctor. Again, I didn’t ask her for details.

That's pretty much it for tonight.

Stay strong - don't ask. It sounds like she wants you to know or be interested. I think she will keep this up so keep just giving back the bare minimum. If it is something you need to know, she will make no secret about it. Right now it is just a technique to manipulate you. Ignore it.

Can you read those email objectively? If they are affecting you emotionally, avoid them. I have said before, your attitude and manner are your biggest obstacles right now. I think others are trying to say the same. You still focus on the mechanics of this process - it is all about attitude.

Yes I can.
I would be me. I wouldn't be influenced by anybody.

I can't agree more...

fear-based reactions almost always overshadow the amazing things the bs does...

and as a ws, you almost have to re-train your brain to see and acknowedge the good and amazing things the bs does....as a ws, you've only been allowing yourself to see the negative...

it is not an over night process...that's why plan a...a really good, properly applied plan a can work....you keep it up, she keeps seeing it...

but the loss of respect JL speaks of....yeah...work on that...I can't begin to get into the damage it caused Dewt and I...

once we were driving somewhere..I think he pulled the car over..and yelled out "I get it"...."what?".."you lost respect for me..."...we then had to re-join traffic, and the moment was lost....but anyway...maybe dewt remembers and can put it into context as it was his 'aha' moment....


watching Dewt gain back both his self-respect and mine is an interesting journey....


to watch someone you love lose that, and watch as it takes him down a treacherous path...and to find yourself disappointed again and again...well...it can only give you further justification if an affair is involved.....as a bs, it just leaves you feeling destroyed......

our mistakes (because we both made them...it would be unfair to Dewt to only acknowledge his) were large and ricocheted....MUCH damage...MUCH broken faith and trust....MUCH shaken foundation.....

some of it played out on these very boards....publicly displayed raw emotion is rarely a good thing, and I can say without a doubt, I sank to many new lows....disrespectful judgemnts flew everywhere...lovebusters...ha!!!...I was nasty and mean....

out of fear, I was REACTING only...spewing here in public....not my finest hour....


2 years later here we are....to quote Dewt.."it is what it is"....


"ex/wife/bestfriend".....LOL....yup...

we each have alot to do to get our own self-respect back..and hopefully, with that comes respect for each other....that entails alot and involves a long list...mine does not have a boat...hmmmm....lol.....some things that are basics for 'normal adults' need to be addressed and acomplished, by both of us, for instance, before any roads inward towards reconciliation can even be broached...

but as we do the work and as the 'backslides' become less and less, and as we both watch each other, a growing sense of 'security' with this person can begin to grow again...


gotta go...


adrian, as a friend always says to me...

Peace over CHAOS...








all of this is hard work....there are no guarantees....

but you have to calm down and remember to BREATHE....





her loss of respect can do alot of damage, is all I'm saying...


go somewhere quiet....

BREATHE..........

soulloss,

Thank you for your post. I read it twice and still trying to find a way how my W would respect me again. You're saying that she sees only the negative things that I do as a BS.
If I take, for example, today. I would give me an A+ for my behavior today. My In-laws were away most of the day. So, it was only me, my W and our DDs. We spent some time to the mall watching our DDs play. We didn't talk much but whenever we discussed we did it in a civilized manner. I have answered every time nice and calm, no DJ, no sarcasm in my voice, nothing. And yet she was the whole day in a very bad mood. She yelled at the kids and after my in-laws came back home she took off claiming that she couldn't take this anymore?! Her own daughters are bothering her because they cry and they don't know what they want!!! Can you believe that?
I mean, I haven’t done bad things today. So, if her mind is set to see only the negative... than what did she see today? There wasn't any negative...

As for self respect I guess I've regained it. I am not giving her the chance to see me hurt. And I believe that she can't further hurt me anymore. I am sticking to Plan A, and if it works, fine. If not, I'll ask her to separate.

...and I breathe...

I am no expert but what I think you are doing is creating an internal conflict for her because you are not reinforcing the justification for affair. Up til now, you have been legitamizing the affair in her mind. Now you have stopped. She has to recreate her mindset - rewrite yet more history. She may also be having problems with OM. You can't know that and don't care. You did good today.

It also sounds like you are making even more progress in your own recovery. That is great and extremely important.

When you say "can you believe that?", I have to say that I couldn't if I hadn't seen it for my own eyes with my WW. Your WW is deeply conflicted without realizing it.

Only one caution: be careful when you say she can't hurt you any more. I think she will definitely try if she goes into serious withdrawal and, trust me, she is still quite capable. Don't let your guard down. They can be SO creative. You may be reaching what someone called the "numbness of indifference". Don't worry - it is a positive sign that you are moving forward. It doesn't last and often gives in to bursts of anger so be watchful. The numbness won't last so be patient. We are operating under the assumption that you still love WW. If you love her, make no mistake - she can hurt you. You have to be strong enough to continue with Plan A and be man enough to be willing to potentially suffer that pain knowing that you are doing it for the greater good. There is no way she can hurt you more deeply than she already has. What you experienced on Dday is as bad as it gets. Everything else will pale by comparison.

It sounds like you did a lot of really good things today. You and family together. Trying to get WW to reconnect. Simple communication. Excellent. It is not a simple quick fix. Be prepared to keep this up for an extended time even when you don't think you want to.

adrianc

I would encourage you to seek counselling from the Harleys if you can swing it finacially. Just look into the counselling area on the web site.

I feel your ww is at an important time and you need a professional plan of action.
Remember Plan A & B have only one target in mind ,, to end the affair. Sometimes at critical moments that is when you need professsional advice based on long & varied experience, so not knowing what there is available in Canada consider the phone counselling from the Harleys.

A few hundred now could be money well spent

My W just asked me to go with her to the coffee shop at the corner of the street to discuss...

If she tells me that the A is over and she's expecting me to trust her from now on, then what do I do? I can't just trust her like nothing happened...

I need an opinion, PLEASE!

adrian....you've stopped BREATHING...


be calm, keep pleasant and take your emotions and stuff them in a pocket for now....make eye contact and hear what she is saying...


no matter what she wants to talk about...you have a safety net....

you can always say..."wow...we've got some things to talk about...let me think about all this and we'll talk again"

no decisions right away...

When in doubt, it's always best to stick with the truth.

If she says: "The affair is over now I expect you to trust me."

Then you say: "I am not able to trust you given what's happened. I'm going to need a lot more from you in order to rebuild trust than just hearing you say the words that the affair is over. Specifically, what I'd like to see is complete transparency, complete accountability, and a plan for us to work together to rebuild our marriage into a place where we can both be happy and satisfied. Are you ready to begin?"

Mys

Oh, one more thing. Expect her to say "No, she's not ready."

Then, you can say something like: "I understand how you feel. Until those things happen, I'm just not going to be ready to trust you, so you might want to be careful about what you expect from me on that front."

DON'T say anything like: "I'll be here waiting when you are ready" or "You'd better be ready soon because this train's going to leave the station."

Just give her the information about what you need WITHOUT attaching a time limit on her readiness (giving her that kind of information shifts the balance of power too much in her favor.)

Good luck!

Mys

Adrian....


what happened ...

how was the coffee?

Hello everybody!

I am so grateful for everyone's help on this board.
But now I need your HELP even more.

As I said earlier we were going to go to the coffee shop. My W said "Why don't we go to the shopping mall downtown?". I said "OK. Lets' go." It took us half an hour to get there. From 11.30 till 1.30 we did some shopping but no talking about the problem. Then we went to the food court and grabbed something to eat. My W opened up the discussion
"Tell me what are we going to do in the future with our lives?"
Me: "You tell me. You know what I want."
My W: "I can't live like this anymore."
Me: "Then let's work on our marriage."
My W: "I've ended the A. I told the OM that starting tomorrow I won't talk to him anymore. I regret for doing this but you were the one who forced me to end it."
Me: 'You did the right thing."
My W: "I don't feel guilty for what I did (she was talking about the A) and I am not sure whether or not I want to recover our marriage."

I was somehow surprised to hear what she told me but then I rememeber that she's still in the fog.

Anyways she was very pesimistic as far as our relation could ever work.
Me: "I am very confident it will work."
My W: "You shouldn't be confident. I told you I was going to TRY give our marriage a chance. I never said I WOULD give it a chance."

I can't post everything we discussed because there wa a lot and I simply can't remember everything. Here are a few more things:
My W: "You'll never going to go over the fact that I've been with another man. And on top of that everybody thinks I am a sl*t.
Me: "I never said that about you. If you remember I told you I saw you only as my W. The W that I wanted to go into marital recovery with. If I thought that you were what you said I would't want to be with you anymore. That's why I am here now."

Me: "What's going to happen with the web site you're working on?"
My W: "I am goiung to work on that all by myself."
Me: "What about the OM?"
My W: "He won't work on the web site anymore."


We spoke for almost two hours. She became agitated and told me she got a headache.

We got home... My W went straight downstairs and started working on the website...
My in-laws left with my BIL. Just before my MIL stepped out said to me: "You guys take care of the girls"
Me: "I guess that applies to em only since my W works on her stuff while I am looking after the kids."
My MIL; 'You want me to go talk to her?"
Me: "No."
She did it anyways. So my W came upstairs and talked to me in a sarcastic way. She told me she got upset beacuse I complained about the fact that she was working on her web site while I was taking care of the kids. All that she said to me at the mall was for herself only and, as usual, I didn't pay attention to her. Her carrier was very important but it looks like she would get one in mopping the floor because I am not helping her at all.

It was a disaster. WHAT DO I DO NOW?

I don't think that was a disaster at all. I think she is seriously wanting to try to recover the marriage.

Go back and read your own thread. She is going to try to provoke you. She will do that for several reasons.

1) Keep your calm.
2) You don't always have to have the last word.
3) Don't try to counter everything she says.
4) None of what she says is "real".

Give her some space right now. Sounds like you did really well. I got the same speech from WW that she didn't think I could get over the A. So WW has several problems here:

1) She is still in love with OM.
2) She has not really started NC with OM.
3) She has doubts about you and your ability.
4) She is concerned about her reputation.

Okay all those things were her creation - don't EVER let her off the hook. Don't continually remind her either. Specifically her doubts about your ability to get over the A. She needs time. She needs your steadfast Plan A+ and she needs to see you solid as a rock. Her lighthouse in the storm. You need to be very careful with yourself right now so your personal growth will be the catalyst for her recovery. Let's just say that maybe WW has committed to at least try. She is afraid you may say now that you want to but you might change your mind later. Instead of expressing that fear to you directly, she lays out a challenge to see how you will respond. So go respond - with solid actions. Nothing you say will convince her you mean business. Everything you do, however, will.

In other words, you now have a lot of work in front of you but you did volunteer for it. Don't expect any help at all from WW for quite some time on the R. Don't try to force that on her either. Right now just work on creating stability in your home, set some very clear ground rules. No matter how many times WW tells you it won't work, you gently remind her that you have faith that it will.

You just started the next exciting chapter in an epic volume. You are doing great.

Disaster?!?!?!

where??!?!

I see no disaster...

I see ALOT of the usual 'babble' that comes out of the ws...

I see ALOT of pain...from BOTH of you...

but...no disaster!!

YAY!!
today, she told you she ended her affair...

YAY!!....

now she's sulking...you 'forced' her to 'give up' her exciting new toy and the childish, selfish part of her, like that child, is going to sulk and be unhappy....

now is when you re-read everything about plan a...

and if you have the interest and the time (and since HE won't be doing it), what if youoffered to help her with the website....make it part of your recreational time together....


Oh, Adrian, there was no disaster...I am actually grinning for you right now...and if I'm not mistaken, both believer and trac have slight smiles too...

step one on a journey has been taken....

YAY!!!

as part of your 'marital work', would she come here?....would you want her to?...

Adrian, as a bs (in 99) I was freaking out, flippin' all over the place...plan REACTING...killing myself with the details...reading every e-mail, agonizing...


I had to calm down.....

and I had to start looking at myself and at my marriage....

the emotional needs questionaires can actually be fun....you do them together while you give her a platonic back rub...discuss, define what the needs mean to you ...(this is of course, if she has not withdrawn from you physically)

turn the atmosphere around you into something inviting, and safe in a family-kind of way...

like Dewt said...be pleasant

bake cookies with your d's...play games...have fun....make home a happy joyful place...children feel the chaos...they need extra love and attention from you right now...from both of you, really, but I doubt if your w is 'there' yet....

think about what kind of home life so you want??..what kind of marriage do you want??..what kind of husband so you want to be??...

let your w have some time...as I said, she made a big move today...I hope she sticks to it, but tracianado made some excellent points....

understand...she is in alot of pain today...whether what she has done is right or wrong, whether she sticks with no contact or she falls off the wagon....right now...today....she is in pain....the hurt is there, not the same as, but just like YOURS is...


ask her if she needs anything...if she'll let you, give her a hug....tell her you love her....

then leave her be....

and come back and re-read all the plan a stuff,....


Adrian, you had a GREAT day today...whether you realize that or not, I will leave to your perception....






ps.... Dewt will be back from TO sometime tomorrow...

Dr. Harley on Plan A

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html



read the first post by Ark in this thread...after you've read it, print it out...study it...

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...;page=3#1148251

Thank you all for your posts.

1. She didn’t go for NC. I checked her emails this morning…
2. She loves the OM (again emails…)
3. She told me yesterday that I was too indoctrinated with the stupid things I have read on the forum. Having said that she won’t accept MB.

I called her this morning after I got to work. There was no answer so I left her a message but she didn’t call back.
I am going to be pleasant tonight even though I know she didn’t go for NC. Maybe it’s going to happen in the next few days?

About yesterday. She also told me that we were never friends. She mentioned that she accepted my ex as a friend of mine. Why can’t I just accept the OM as a friend?

Adrian,

Big day, lots of stuff to sort through. On the friends part...she rewrote history about you and her not being friends...not your truth, right?

Now, about an ex of yours being a friend...you ready to give that up to show that dedicated, married partners do not have friends of the opposite sex, especially ones they've been intimate with? I had to do this and it was tough but worth it. She is saying she accepted your ex as your friend, but she's keeping score, looking for loopholes. Close this one for the good of your marriage.

My two cents.

Look at all those people behind you! Btw, you can call Dr Harley for yourself, too. Seems like you're at a critical juncture and would make the most sense.

You are your daughters' hero, Adrian.

LA