Hello everybody,

I am struggling with my W’s infidelity. The D day was Jan 4th 2006 when she sent me an email telling mew about her A. I am currently in Plan A but she told me already she doesn’t intend to leave the house so I don’t know how plan B would help me.
Here is the link to my original thread:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...484#Post2936473

She says she’ll en her A but has lots of demands (see my thread). It’s like she's giving me a last warning. Whatever I say, it's wrong, whatever I do, it's wrong.
Help!

Hi adrian.

For others, I recommend you read the e-mail he got - it's toward the end of that linked thread. Classic, classic, classic alien abduction. Alien abduction AND moose brain worms.

Kudos to LA for being a tremendous asset to adrian so far.

adrian - For now it looks like you gotta suck it up and Plan A. No LB's. You don't have to agree with her demands, but by doing a good Plan A you avoid some conflicts.

The dynamic with OM's wife and new baby has to develop. That could be a strong catalyst to get his head outta his butt. Also, since you comunicate with OM's wife, get her a copy of SAA.

Boundaries are an issues - obviously. Hopefully you'll get some good advice on this aspect > how to set them without LB'ing and how to earn respect, even when you don't get your way.

WAT

WAT,

"Alien abduction AND moose brain worms."

I chuckled out loud at that. Thank you!!!! Felt really good.

LA

Adrian,

I'm concerned about your MIL sending these demands to your wife and her taking them on. Could you ask your MIL if she intended to get the A broken up the only way she knew how, by appealing to your WW's thirst for power and selfish demands? That her intent was to end the A at all cost and then everything would be rosey?

What do you think? Or is MIL a destructive force, just like your FIL is a passive destructive force? Have they been living there since November?

About your hand-slapping situation...goes hand-in-hand (okay, pun intended) with the BIL incident. Something occurs and everyone agrees behind you're back that you did something wrong. Your wife does not ask, "Hey, what was that about?" but sits and silently concludes the answer.

Remember how much I saw in your posts of mindreading and assumptions? You're not alone. It is the dynamic of her family of origin, most likely yours, and in your marriage it is so unconscious, no one can see it. You're feeling the effects...the guilty before being proven innocent feeling.

This can really deflate feeling loved, protected and cherished, don't you think?

How have you been doing with those mental habits? Better, worse? Did you run this morning?

Did you talk believer's advice and not mention her email and not reply?

So many are here for you, Adrian. And they understand first hand your pain, anger and what you've committed yourself to--and most have done it themselves.

LA

Maybe Orchid will chime in here. She is so great at reverse babble. When I read the email, my eyes popped out, but Orchid could reply easily since she speaks fog speak.

My MIL sent that email to my W's work email address. I can't tell her I had access to my W's email.

I don't really think my MIL is a destructive force. She keeps telling me that everything will be OK. We took my FIL out to a restaurant tonight. Everybody was there: my W, BIL with his W, MIL, FIL, DDs and me. After we came home my MIL told me that I did really well in maintaining the good mood. If you ask me I only saw my W being nervous and grumpy. On our way back, in the car, my W made some bad comments about my BIL's wife (who was in another car). She doesn’t like her and she doesn’t like me. She only likes her father, her mother and her brother (even though two weeks ago she said she no longer had a brother because he was not on her side this time! – referring to the A).

As soon as we got home my W went upstairs to rest. I asked her if she was OK, is she needed anything or if there was anything I could do for her. No, no, no. I left and went down in the basement to play with the kids.

My in laws came here in October and I guess my W wanted to give them a welcome present: her A…

I didn’t mention anything about her email and didn’t reply to it. She didn’t call me today at all. I didn’t call her and I didn’t check her emails either.

I ran this morning and I will do it again tomorrow, the day after tomorrow and so on, until her fog will dissipate.

I figured you didn't want anyone knowing about your access to email, but it could be asked in such a way as to not reveal anything.

I love it--your wife "had a grumpy face?"

Sorry...I cave sometimes.

You're doing awesome. Did your wife take her cell upstairs with her? That would be the only thing I would do differently. "Why don't you leave your cell here, so it won't disturb you?"

Your belief of whom she likes and doesn't won't get you anywhere. I know you understand that she lives through her feelings, which change all the time, so whom she likes is as relevant as the weather. Right now.

She doesn't like herself.

Good to know that your BIL is supportive of you!

I'm looking at her A now with a different idea. FOO issues. Family of Origin. Triggers a lot of junk and may have been the push to choose relief.

I'm hoping Orchid will show, too. She can hand you some words you can really use.

Did you read ark^^'s thread yet? Plan A tips and musings...get grounded here

Read all the way through. You've found your physical relief...add some emotional ones, too. Especially the creative stuff.

LA

LA,

I did read ark^^'s thread. Great tips. I guess I am doing what he's saying. I gave a lot tonight and didn't receive anything in exchange, but I feel OK.

Yes, she had a grumpy face! Believe it or not she had it. What was the reason, I don't know.

About her cell phone. I can't tell her to leave it there because I never see that phone. She is hiding it from me. And also, she's hiding the bill from me. I know she subscribed to online billing so I won't receive a hard copy in the mailbox.

"She doesn't like herself."
I am trying to make her like herself. If I succeed then I won't like myself I will love myself.

There will be 5 weeks tomorrow since the D day.

This was the part of that thread I was thinking about for you...

"plan A works for all and any contact...

it also works with some little twists thrown in...
it's important for the BS to not ALWAYS be where the WS expects...
it means the BS has a dinner party or goes out with friends that usually included the WS and leaves the WS exactly what that engagement was like....

it means the BS when in contact throws in a little mystery..by a simple comment or question that tweak their interest...
something like..
'remember that good bottle of wine we had....what was the name...I wanted to get a bottle of that for a friend of mine...but can't remember where we had/got it....as a little thankyou for something....
then zippppp your lipppppppp

and no more on that subject....

see the creativity of plan A.....all the freedom of control"

I believe she had a grumpy face. I don't think you ever had one! In her FOO, anything less than joyous smiles wasn't tolerated.

Good to know on the cell phone. Can't you walk in on her talking on it?

You cannnot make someone like themselves. It is inhuman and even disrespectful. However, you can make yourself like yourself and others, even when they aren't acting right. I want you to succeed in loving yourself totally--best revenge, really.

Has it been five weeks already? Where does the time go...where's that guy, you know, nice, hurting, who in ten days thought he couldn't stand another minute...where's that guy? In his what, uhm, :::adding fingers, adding toes:::: oh! 35th day!!!

You were giving tonight from other parts of yourself...not to exchange anything, Adrian. You were giving because of your children, your 12 years and your hope. If there is something desired in return, then it wasn't giving, was it?

Be creative in how to ask MIL what would be a great way to get your wife to stop being unfaithful...oh, maybe as her that?

LA

Orchid: Believer, u r 2 funny!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />


Orchid: Your WS is spewing stupid babble.

Here's my reply:

WS,
Not sure if you will understand this but as for your demands, well, you don't get to have much since u r the one who did the dirty deed. When you can meet my needs, we can talk. 'til then, you'd best be on your best behavior since you have taught me that you are not as flawless as I used to believe u 2 b.

Sincerely,
forever the BS until you stop being a WS.

Howz that?!?!?! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

L.

Your wife's email reminds me of the old Steve Martin routine where he gets surrounded by police while trying to rob a bank. The negotiator calls and Steve says he has three demands:

1) a million dollars
2) a getaway car
3) that the letter "M" be stricken from the English language.

He says it is always good to have one crazy demand so that, if you get caught, you can always plead insanity. "Getaway car - I mean really..."

You said that you could meet all your wife's demands. Why would it even occur to you to try?

You said MIL is coaching your WW but (I think) MIL may not know you know. I would use that to my advantage, if possible. Use the MIL to send disinformation to your WW.

It sounds like your WW is trying to cut an outstanding deal for herself. None of those are acceptable terms in any marriage.

Good post traicionado. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

L.

Thank you all for your posts.

I am afraid that if I told my W what Orchid advised me she might leave...
Traicionado, you have an excelent idea. I will try use my MIL to send disinformation to my W.
LA, I ran this morning and now I feel OK. My W was still in bed when I came back. She asked me if I ran again. I said yes, and that was it... Did I feel that she was a little bit envy?

It is just a feeling but you may find when this is all over that your fears were groundless. You will be amazed how the balanc of power will swign back and forth in this deal.

Regardless, if you are afraid to go head on with WW, test the waters through MIL. Just pretend to have a "breakdown" while you are talking to her and "spill your heart". Tell her that your WW's demands are simply unacceptable and you don't see any way out. Put the fear of God in MIL. Tell MIL that you have decided to expose to friends/family/God and everybody. There is nothing left to lose. Surely MIL will worry about the reputation of her DD if nothing else.

I have not read your entire other post so take that with a grain of salt. Think through carefully how you want to use information to MIL. LA and others have been taking great care of you so get advice from a few before proceeding down that path.

Your WW has not drawn a line in the sand - she has dug the Grand Canyon. If she is that set to go, why hasn't she? There is a power you have that she wants. What is it?

Ooo Ooo Ooo!!!!

That is EXACTLY what needs to happen!!!

One step backward to take two steps forward!

Man oh man, Adrian, if you think she would leave, go for it!!

She needs to experience a consequence of her decisions. Soon as she leaves, you establish legal division of assets and change the locks, go to Plan B. Set her adrift.

Sound harsh? You bet! It's supposed to be.

Gettting her to leave is the VERY best thing - short of waking up - that could happen.

Now, that said, you allow her to make this decision. All the while, your mantra is that you want the family to stay intact and work on the marriage - but that can't happen as long as OM is in the picture.

WAT

She told me in the email she sent me that she will end her A and we'll discuss further about our marriage after Valentine's Day. BTY, what do you think is the most ridiculous demand from her? (If you don't mind going back and read the email I've posted)

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...484#Post2936473

She doesn't want to leave the house (she told me that) and she doesn't want me to leave the house (not that I have any intention of doing that).

If I'm not mistaken, during the withdrawal period, the WS would be very irritated, nervous, etc. That's exactly the way she behaves these days. This morning, as soon she came downstairs, she yelled at my MIL, she was angry with the kids, and so on. Maybe she already told the OM that was over and now she doesn't have her drug, causing her to have this bad mood.

Don't dwell on this adrian. ALL of her "demands" are ridiculous. She's not in a position to demand ANYTHING. As for you, demands are lovebusters. Don't make any.

Consider checking in with OM's wife. See if the baby has changed things from his perspective.

WAT

Her entire list is abject nonsense. None of them are worth the bandwidth she used to transmit the email and none of them are negotiable. You simply keep telling her you are going to do everything you can think of to save the marriage.

By the way, I went over your previous thread and I never saw where you exposed this affair to everyone who can put pressure on it. Did you?

WAT – I am not asking her for anything anymore. I am just waiting for her to start a conversation about the demands email she sent me. She has asked me not to talk about it until after Valentine’s Day, but I won’t bring it up but wait for her.

Longhorn - My family knows, her family knows and most of our friends know. But no one can talk to her. Whenever someone tries to talk to her she becomes sarcastic and treats everybody like “another smart one telling me what to do”.

I just opened up a letter she has received from the company she has her cell phone plan with. They thank her for subscribing to online billing (I new she did that but she doesn’t know that). I gave her the letter telling very calm: “You have received a letter from these guys”. Then I turned my back and left. Now she knows I know that she is hiding her bill from me so I can’t see the breakdown for all incoming/outgoing calls. She didn’t say anything. I am asking how is she going to pay for it. We share the same account. Does she think that I won't notice the transaction? Can't believe that she did that.

I have to go now. We are preparing to attend a wedding. I am curious to see what my friends at the table will have to say. As for me, I will enjoy my friends’ wedding. I will have a few drinks, dance (eventually with my WW) and have a good time.


Thank you guys for your posts.

Adrian, you say everyone in your family and your wife's family knows. Make sure they also know the adultery continues.

If your friends look at her strangely at today's wedding (or if she thinks they do) your know your reply to her bitter anger about it is that they're looking at her that way because of what she did, not what you told them, right? Learn the babble wayward spouses spout and learn the reverse babble replies. They'll keep you sane.

I saw in your other thread you've talked (at least once) with the OMW but I don't see any comments about recent contact. She should know her husband is continuing his inappropriate conduct also. She has the right to know.

Since he is an old friend, have you exposed what he is doing to his parents? Normally that would be the province of his wife, but you know them well and they can put enormous pressure on their son if they're willing to. Consider it, okay?

This adultery seems to have been sparked in the environment of a local college or something like that. Have you thought of exposing there? If their instructor knows of the adultery, he or she might provide a little more observation than otherwise and perhaps let a little disapproval slip into his or her facial expression. That's pressure and it's legitimate to apply it.

Finally, if they are conducting any part of the affair while they are at work (e.g., using company phones to call, corporate computers for email or instant messaging, extended lunches to meet somewhere, etc.) then exposing there might also appropriate. My thought on exposure is to not leave any refuge where they can hide and make even the most tenuous of contacts.

Good luck in all you do.

Your marriage is today. V day is just another day. So if she is willing to put recovery on hold for V day..... you gotta wonder what else is she gonna put her M on hold for? Another OM?

BTW, V-day for her is t/b with who?!?!?!? OM? You?

Do you really want t/b a # in her A book?

I think not but hey, I'm not you. If I were you, I'd be quite offended at her demands and make a few of your own..... get your children, MIL and everyone else on your side. Make life miserable for the WS so you WIFE can come home.

The WS is the one physically, emotionally and mentally in your home. Get her out and get your wife back.

STOP enabling the WS, every time you do that, you are hurting your wife.

L.

I am still working my way through the other post so, if I miss something, I apologize. You just said that family and most friends know. In the other post, you say WW wants to end the A to protect MIL and FIL. Protect them from what? If everybody knows, how can they be hurt? Something is missing something in this picture.

You should go read up on the five stages of grief. It sounds like you are doing a lot of bargaining and that gives your WW a lot of advantages. The sooner you get away from that, the better off you will both be.

I am a little bugged about the story with FIL in the car. I am not surprised that FIL would be a little upset about you swatting his hand. I am surprised that they all seem to dwell on it so. It makes me think there is something more there. Don't know why I think that. I know my WW brought up "trivial" incidents that happened 7 or 8 years ago.

I also get the impression that you want to get this all fixed and put it in the past. For you, the only way to do that is to talk about it with WW. If that is what you are doing, you may need to back off. As long as she is in the fog, you are not going to have a very intelligent conversation. It may be that you continually bring this all up because of how you are coping with the grief. I don't know. The bottom line is that you may have to back off talking about the A and focus instead on your best Plan A.

FWIW, my family asked me what they could do to help me in my sitch. I told them to basically shut up. I said if they wanted to help, they should just surf this site and learn. My mother did exactly that and she emailed me the link to your other post last week. I printed it out and put it on my desk and have been reading it when I can. Unfortunately I have been off-site all week in an emergency tender evaluation. I'll get back to reading it this morning.

The reason my mother sent me your link is that you and I are apparently in a very similar situation. I want to find out why she thinks that.

Do you have any idea who your WW's enablers are? I am sure she has them.

In my personal sitch, when I was in the bargaining stage, I would have done anything to keep WW from leaving. Later, when I got past all of that, I got to the point where I could not get WW to leave. I begged her to leave at times. I couldn't figure out what to do to get her out of the house. I think I said in my post that getting her to leave was like trying to put a cat in a bathtub to give it a bath. She would grab anything and everything to avoid it. We are still there although I don't try to make her leave any more.

You sound like you are afraid that if you make one wrong turn, the M is over. I don't think that is true. I will go read some more.

Remember to focus on yourself. Plan A is not making your WW fall in love with you. You can't control that.

I don't think your WW's email was a "last warning". I think it was an opening bid - albeit a laughable one. Even so, there may be something in it that has a grain of truth. My WW's family told each of us to "dejar la fiesta in paz". In other words, don't talk about it so much. That may be the one thing in your WW's email that you should think about just a little. Don't create confrontation. You already have enough without any additional help and it is a LB.

I read everybody’s posts and am so grateful for being privileged to do that.

Orchid,
I am so sorry but I couldn’t find on MB what V day stands for. I apologize.
I was offended by her demands as much as you were. I actually laughed out loud when I read them. My work colleague asked me what happened. She told me that she didn’t see me smiling (not talking about laughing) in 5 weeks. I know her demands are ridiculous. Every single one. But hey, am I in the position to complain right now? I am just a door mat, right? About the children. It looks like that here, in Canada, the law tends to leave the children with their mothers. Another colleague at work (who had two kids) went back home one day and found a letter from his WW telling him that she took off with another man. Even though she left her home and her kids she got shared custody!!! And now, after six years, she drags her ex H in court to get full custody. How fair is this?

Traicionado,
I am not talking to my W about the email she sent me. Just waiting for her to make the first step.

Anyways. Here is today’s wedding story.
We atend the church ceremony. My W smiled sarcastically when they made the commitment and never said a prayer. This was not my W. I know her. She is religious (not much but every time she stepped into a church she would say at least one prayer). At want point of time, the groom (my friend) looked into my eyes and asked me if we were going to come to the restaurant anymore. I realized that he new about the A. At the restaurant, I tried to have a good time and I had. I danced all night, even though my wife gave up relatively quick. We were OK in the beginning, but after a while my W got grumpy. We danced together in the beginning but after a while she claimed her feet killed her. I said OK and took other lady friends to dance. All of a sudden she got upset (grumpy). I didn’t randomly choose the ladies but asked the ones who were close to me and I was not sure whether or not they knew about the A. I found out that basically everybody knew. They all looked in a different way at my W. And I am sure she noticed that.
Now, was my W upset because I had a good time or because my friends looked at her in a certain way? I don’t know, but we left before the party was over because my W was “tired”.

I did everything by the book. Got to the bar to get her a drink, danced with her, asked her if she wanted anything else and so on. I will sleep well tonight knowing that I did my best today to save my M. Maybe my WW doesn’t think so but I do

Hey Adrianc, good on you for your handling of the wedding.

I really don't post much these days, but do check in once in a while to check on how some of the folks are doing. But, somehow I clicked into your thread and I just felt compelled to jump in with my 2 cents.

As a Canadian Dad who's been through the family court wringer, I can attest to the fact that indeed Fathers get short changed by the courts. The good news is that things are changing... depending on the province you live in, and providing you get a REALLY good lawyer, and handle everything right, you do stand a chance. In fact, I might recommend that you set to work finding on. Very carefully and quietly, I might add... but the key to surviving in the Canadian Family Court system is EXTREME preparedness.

The sense I get from reading the contents of your wife's email is that she has an over inflated sense of entitlement. We all know how ridiculous that is, but it's important to realize that it's also extremely dangerous.

I'd say you're getting some pretty good advice here, so mostly I'd just back up what's already been said.

Mostly though, I'd strongly urge you to avoid being dragged into any drama with her. You remaining silent in response to her email is a pretty good example of what I mean. The kind of drivel in that message is very hard not to get riled up about.

In my opinion, the key here is to disregard the inflammatory [email]cr@p[/email] she's giving you and decipher the real issues contained within. There's information in there that you can use to assess your contribution to the state of things as they stand there, and if you can identify those issues and subtly make those changes within you, you will be one step closer to being an attractive choice to her.

Which brings me to the next point... which is all about respect.

Seems to me that a major recurrent theme in cases of infidelity and failing marriages (and I've been posting and reading here since 1999) is respect, or the loss thereof.

If I had to give you just one piece of advice, one suggestion, it would be to work on respect. Self respect comes first, and with it comes boundries which lead to gaining the respect of others.

Now, I'm posting like a madman. It's late, and my fingers are flying while my brain tries to keep up, so you may have to bear with me and weed through the nonsense... (uh, you could consider it as practice <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />)

The point is, start doing things and acting in ways that will help you respect yourself. Your wife's respect will follow. Not getting sucked into a discussion over her insane demands is a good example. Not being clingy is another good one. Showing that you are resilient and strong and able to be in good humour despite her continued betrayals is another way. In my opinion, this is a key component to a solid Plan A.

Anyway, I'm gonna sign off before I ramble myself into complete gibberish.

Take er easy, m'man.

John

I am about 2/3 through your original thread. I have been making underlines and am now going back through them. Keep in mind that I am almost in the same situation you are so I am giving this to you from that perspective – not from someone who has successfully recovered a marriage. Before I get into my highlights, I want to say one thing that may be a bit harsh but it not intended to demean you in any way and is only intended in the spirit of help. You remind me of (me actually…) the old Sylvester cartoon where the bulldog walks confidently down the street with his spiked collar, red sweater and hat (your WW) and the little dog jumping and bouncing (you) all around him saying "what do you want to do Butch?", "where should we go Butch?", etc. You really need to stop that.

Now, if I haven't totally pissed you off, read on…

1/12 – You wife says she needs time. She wants time to explore the affair but she is not explaining it to you that way.

1/12 – Forget the carrot and the stick because you are not at a place where you can implement it. That may come later.

1/14 – You cannot meet her EN's because she does not want you to. She also won't tell you what they are. You have to take your best shot at figuring out what they are and work on changing you. Forget about her for the moment,

Sent her a dozen roses. Why on Earth would you do that? Haven't you learned anything from the carrot and the stick that I just told you to ignore? You should reward good behavior – not bad behavior.

1/14 – She doesn't want me to meet her EN's. You are probably right. Forget about it for the time being. She is in love with OM and wants him to meet her EN's. You will not be able to meet her EN's until she establishes NC.

The roses are her language. Forgive me but the OM knows her language better than you.

I can't be happy if we don't talk about our issues – then choose not to be happy. She is nowhere near ready to talk about your issues.

I am soooo afraid. Of what? That you might face a future without a lying, adulterous witch at your side? Don't be.

How come she can laugh and make jokes? Because she is not the one who is emotionally destroyed. She is a woman in love. She is, for the most part, happy.

My wife hates his wife – Why not? The OMW has a controlling influence over the man she loves. Jealousy comes to mind.

1/15 – I was crying while I was telling her. Good. She should know that she is hurting people.
1/15 – if we want our relationship to work, then we have to talk about it. Yes – eventually. But maybe not just yet. I will get fragged for saying this but that is one problem I have with SAA. We BS's read it, we want to fix our M, move to R and this is the road map. All well and good but we finish the book in one or two days and try to implement its plan in about the same amount of time. It didn't take two days for you WW to get into an A and you will not R in two days either. Stop wanting to talk so much.

1/17 – What do you think has changed in 10 days? She hit the nail on the head. Nothing has changed.

She looked down and said "yes, honey". Breaking eye contact is one sign of lying. She told you what she thought you wanted to hear to shut you up. She didn't really mean it.

You change is affect by the insecure future – I don't understand that. Why should it? If you need to change to be a better person/better husband, it shouldn't matter what the future hold for you and WW. If you remarry, don't you still want those positive changes? Focus on you and not what you think WW wants you to be.

I don't fully comprehend your living conditions just yet but, if you don't live with your wife's family, they sure hang around a lot. You need to keep them out. It sounds like you are both young. One thing I suspect about my WW is that she not only lost connection with me, I am not sure she ever really connected to her family (i.e. you and the kids). It sound like MIL has been almost as much a mother as WW. What is that thing about leaving mother and father and cleaving to spouse? (I also admit I don't really know what "cleave" means – will look that up on Google in a minute). You, wife and kids are "the family" or at least should be.

1/19 – Would you believe me if I told you I came back home to stay with you? I hope not. Your WW has no idea why she is doing the things she does but she certainly does not BELIEVE she wants to be with you. Perception is everything. There is "reality" and there is your WW's reality. Yours means nothing to her. Fog effect. Ignore it.

1/20 – The pain I would suffer if she left – I'll get back to that one. You are still into denial and bargaining. More in a minute

Anything I could do to make things better for her – Excuse me but you have this backwards. Stop bouncing around like the little dog. She should be making things better for you. She won't but that is another matter.

After a while her parents and brother came back home – Do they live with you (or you with them?) Can you find some other living arrangements? You need some distance.

She was able to laugh really loud – Good. You want her to be happy. If she is miserable all the time, she will choose to leave.

BTW, I keep reading where you see the WW chatting with OM and you walk away. You hear her get a phone call and you go down to make her a cup of coffee so she can have privacy. What is wrong with you??? Make it very clear that you may not be able to prevent her continuing the A (and make it clear that continued contact is exactly that) but you will not condone it under your roof and around your children. If she refuses to hang up, sit down beside her and wait till she finishes to go get that cup of coffee for her. You are making this far too easy for her.

1/20 talking about our future – that is both good and bad. Be careful with it.

Everything there was a perfect match – yes there is nothing new under the Sun. The good news is that many people have gone through this before and will in the future. There is hope. Now that you have read SAA, hide it away for a while. You run the risk of trying to become the people in the book and, when things don't work out exactly as per the book, you get frustrated. Don't throw the book away – just don't refer to it daily.

Based on what I have learned in the past few days – You are still bargaining.

Just pure love – what is your definition of pure love? This is just an honest question because I am curious – it is not a criticism.

She is hiding something from me. – Absolutely and don’t ever forget it. Just don't worry about it.

Put herself in my shoes – Waste of time. She will not understand so don't make her try.

1/21 – 74 more days- hmmm, yes it is good to give yourself time. In my opinion, that time is for you and you alone. You should be doing positive things during that time and continuing a solid Plan A but the most important thing is how you will change over the next 74 days. Think about that time as being for your benefit and it will go more easily.

Calmly asked her if everything was ok – Why? Nothing is okay. Leave her to her thoughts. You cannot fix those for her. You are appearing weak and giving her way too much control.

Maybe I should go by myself – No doubt. Go.

Right now she's calling OM – and you are still allowing that?

1/21 She was on the phone for about three hours (see previous comment)

1/21 Even though my wife says I have no respect for them. – Whether it is true or not, you WW believe it to be true and that is all that matters.

She told me she no longer sees OM and I believe her – Why on Earth would you believe her?
Don't ask me what I read…to painful. – Post it on the WWW. Tell the world. Show it to family and friends. You don't have to read it – let the rest of the world read it. Make it painful for WW – not for you.

1/22 We sat for a while..kissed her…She didn't say anything. Good for you.

I knew it was the OM but I ignored it. – WHAT???? EARTH CALLING ADRIANC!!!!!

1/24 OM is bombarding her with love messages…don't know if I should continue. Just my opinion but don't continue. If you fight a toe-to-toe battle with this OM you will lose because he has the advantage that she is in love with him and not you. This is a battle not worth fighting. Spend your energy elsewhere. Chose your battles more wisely.

1/24 Did she really care about me or was she just being polite? Forget about it. What difference does it make? Wait – the fact that you seem to think it makes a difference is a big part of your problem right now. (I know that is harsh – sorry).

1/25 Forget about the OM. He is not your problem. Your WW is your problem. Do you think that if OM and OMW decide to restore their marriage that your problems go away? Not! I don't care if the OM leaves his wife, moves in next door and serenades your WW from the street every night. He is not your problem. Leave it alone.

1/26 I do believe she still loves me. – The only thing that matters is if you still love her. If you do, keep going. Don't concern yourself with your WW's feelings because her world and our world exist in different planes right now. What you need is time. In physics terms, marital recovery is a state function. That means it doesn't matter how you got there. If you are not too scientifically minded then I will give you the golf analogy (living in Canada, I am guessing you don't play too much golf either). Here goes: I was playing golf with a guy once and he teed off into the trees, then went into a greenside bunker, pitched out and over the green and chipped in for par. My comment was "what an ugly way to play a hole!". His response was "they don't draw pictures on scorecards". Point accepted.

I don't know if I would try to save the marriage if she didn't love me – then walk away now. Read my previous comment. Do you love your WW? Do you think you can make her happier than any man on Earth? Do you want your children to grow up in a solid home and surrounded by love? Keep working on R then. If your commitment to R depends on your wife's feeling, you have a tough row to hoe.

1/26 – HOW – By sticking with the plan A…. This is the most coherent thing you have said to-date. (except the bit about how you know WW still loves you).


1/27 I didn't tell her to stop yelling at them – Why on Earth not? Your WW is under a lot of stress and it is easy to take out frustration on the kids. Verbal abuse is still abuse. Just make sure WW treats the kids exactly like she always has. Don't let her change her behavior and vent on them. I have never hit my WW but I had to tell her I would do anything to her that she did to my DD's. That calmed her way down because she knows I am deadly serious.

1/27 We all know about the affair – I doubt that. Everyone knows who WW wants to know. She has been very selective about that because she is searching for enablers (besides you). Unfortunately you are a pretty big enabler. That will change with time so just do your best in the interim. I totally understand what you are feeling. I was there a very short time ago.

1/27 I CAN'T TAKE THIS ANY MORE… I do not want to get into a religious dialog but maybe someone finally has your attention. You will never be given a greater burden than you can bear. But you will be given as much as it takes to break you – to get your attention.

1/28 I don't know how to love her… yes. Well said. Now find out how you do need to love her. Maybe you made things too easy for her. I don't know. It sounds like you have never made her work very hard at your M. If you have to work for something, you appreciate it far more.

1/30 I looked into her eyes and … hated her… See? It has only been six days and you have already changed so much. First signs of anger. Good. You are progressing (positively).

I am seriously questioning…(more anger)

Everything is so fake…Absolutely. Well spotted.

2/1 It hasn't been you the past month….I want you to want to change… Okay this is the most coherent thing your WW has said so far. She nailed it on the head. You have not been trying to be you. You have been trying to be something you thought she wanted. She is spot on with this and it should be a wakeup call for you. The other message I read is that she WANTS you to do something. Why would she care if there was not a thought of R in her mind? This is both a red flag and a message of hope IMO.

Okay I have to stop here. The one thing I want to leave on is to remind you of your commitment to a date. 90 days was it? You may not realize it but you have progressed quite a lot in a very short time. You need those remaining days for you. Focus on you right now. Your WW is hanging around for a reason. Don't know what that is but I don't care either because it is irrelevant. She is there and as long as she is there you can remain on Plan A. Plan A is not always easy – especially in the anger stage. Just don't vent that anger to WW. Avoid LB's even though every fiber of your body tells you to do otherwise. You are just going to have to trust me on this. Remember I am only about two seconds in front of you but I can already see light at the end of the tunnel. I may not exit the tunnel with WW by my side but I can still see that it is a beautiful day outside. Don't quit now. Keep it up a little longer and you will have no regrets looking back.

Remember the cartoon about the bulldog and the little spaniel? Do you remember how it ends when the bulldog thinks the spaniel has whipped the cat?

adrianc,

You have been given some good advice; I will do my best to not subtract from it. I am DDay + 27 days. Still raw and all that. I got the speech from WW "I love you but I am not in love with you". Translation from Foganese to English: I am in love with the OM.

Since implementing Plan A, she now says she is in love with me. Problem? She is still in love with the OM. Apparently her heart is big enough for both of us. Even so, it will not hold both of us indefinitely. One will win. I plan to win.

How will I accomplish that goal?

By being the most consistent person I can be. Her emotions and actions have been all over the map. It will not help matters if I follow suit. I am able to meet many of her needs. I am staying calm and strong. I do disagree with traicionado on one point: try not to cry in front of her. Yes it is good that she knows she hurt you, but if you keep crying I believe it will backfire. After tears fell from my eyes during that first eventful week, my WW accused me of crying to get sympathy and to manipulate her. These WW have no logic; it's all about them and their intense need to refocus reality into their fantasy world. Most wives want to see their husbands as strong. Physically and emotionally strong. I am not justifying it, simply explaining it. The final portion of my strategy is to paint a bright future for the two of us. Notably, by omission, one that does not include the OM. I mixed a bright paint with ingredients such as moving to a resort community, plans for the kids, talk of future grandkids, buying her the convertible she wants and going back to Bermuda. Much of this will not happen until either we R or can see R throught the front windshield if such is possible. This gives her hope. Something to envision with the two of us. Just the two of us.

A similar plan for you is probably down the road. But be sure to heed the advice from others about what to do now.

ToddAC

I am not going to disagree with ToddC because he and I have had this debate before. I will say that showing emotions is not a sign of weakness. Ability to show emotion is a kind of strength all by itself. I guess it depends on how that is expressed. If you are bawling like a little baby, I tend to agree that is weak. If you are speaking about something and have tears in your eyes, that is a normal emotion. My WW has cut me to the bone. Telling her that does no good and is a LB anyway. Letting her see it, IMO, helps get the point across while avoiding a LB.

Now I finished reading from 2/3 to 2/10. I am a bit confused as to what all went on during that week but it is night and day.

I am not going to say much more right now but I still think MIL and FIL are not a good influence. Blood is thicker than water. Even if they are "on your side", they will always be an unknown quantity and highly unpredictable. If you do plan on separation or divorce, you need to get MIL out of the picture to show you are fully adequate to care for your children. What is this web site she is working on? Post the URL. Most web sites come with free email accounts. I would like to send her a PM.

Something you said when you asked your WW about what a typical day would be like. "Just like today. Wake up, go to work, come back home, feed the kids, go to bed!!!". That is probably how she has genuinely conditioned herself to feel. That helps justify the A in her mind but it is very likely the truth as she sees it. The A, on the other hand, is exciting and different and loads of fun.

Those activities are facts of marriage and they can be mundane. I think you need to also get your WW to play together with you and the kids. You all need to connect together as a family as well as just a couple. I don't think your WW truly values her family and I don't know how she got that way. (and I am speaking from some experience here)

Orchid: I like your attitude. U r gonna go far with a good attitude. Don't lose it.


Orchid: Sorry.....that's not an MB acronym, was just too lazy to type out 'valentine's day'.


Orchid: Good. At least you are not being fooled.


Orchid: U R NOT a doormat. U R in a position to complain and u should. IMHO.


Orchid: Often sad but true. Still document her unmotherly behavior. Prepare it and give it to your lawyer when needed. Even if the judge gives custody to the WS, pass the info and let it be in the court records that the judge was aware of the A and question his judgement. U won't be the only one.


Orchid: Hm.... she still thinks she can give you grief at your friend's wedding. How sad. R w/God is one of the 1st t/g. Very sad indeed. NOTE: NO ONE can fool God but the WS' sure try. Dummies.


Orchid: Good. He c/b part of your support team....AFTER he comes back from his honeymoon.


Orchid: Your support group just got bigger. BTW, expect the WS to claim she can't be friends with everyone since they know about the A. As a WS, she can't be trust nor be a friend but when she repents and others see you have forgiven her (providing her repentance is genuine), then others will follow suite.


Orchid: WS' don't like the BS to have any good time. Is that gonna stop u? Hope not. The WS had to show control so she made you leave before you were ready. Allow it sometimes and at others...... leave her hanging. The point is NOT to let the WS think they can call all the shots and you (the BS) will jump every time. Let her wonder if you will or choose NOT to jump. Basically, u will learn to jump when U R ready.


Orchid: Good. Glad you had a nice time and didn't allow the WS to ruin it all for you. She certainly did try, didn't she?!??!? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I just finished reading traicionado's post...

Had to comment that was one of the best posts I've EVER read on this site.

Wow. The 2 dogs analogy was quite poignant. I was in that state at one point, too. I think I did quite a lot of damage of my own during that time. It certainly fed an emotional state that led to some very foolish decision making on my part.

J

Thank you all for your posts.

She woke up this morning in a bad mood.
I, on the other hand, woke up in a good mood, went out running. After I came back she asked me "were you out running?" Every day I run in the morning and every day she's asking me the same question.

She's now working on the website. She didn't want to go out with the kids or play with them.

I don't have the website address. Everything she has is on her computer. I don't know if she (together with the OM) bought a domain yet. I'll post the address if I find out what it is.

I am tired and don't know what to do anymore.

"I will say that showing emotions is not a sign of weakness."

We agree on this. My WW disagrees with us.

"Ability to show emotion is a kind of strength all by itself."

Again, we agree. Again, WW disagrees.

"I guess it depends on how that is expressed. If you are bawling like a little baby, I tend to agree that is weak."

How about choking up while you are talking? WW saw it as weak.

"Letting her see it, IMO, helps get the point across while avoiding a LB."

My WW is very cold these days. Uncharacteristically cold. I am content that you and I agree. Problem for me is that my WW doesn't.

ToddAC,

Let's keep in mind that there are cultural differences and Latinas view things differently. They are used to expect machismo. You and I have to be sensitive to that.

adrianc,

If you are tired, get some rest. I read a lot of positive things in your progression. I hope you can muster some strength and get back into the game. Give yourself a break if you need it but don't give up just yet. I think you are doing just fine.

You are right that you do not need a domain to have a web site. Almost all web sites are created locally and then uploaded via FTP. If it is all on her HD, she cannot be getting anyone's help to work on it unless they are sitting at the computer with her. I don't think you can do much efficient coding over a telephone. That would drive me to divorce if I had to do that with my wife.

I got the impression they were file sharing. Don't know why I thought that. If they are file sharing, they have to have a URL to load those files to. It could also be masked. That is easy enough to do.

As everybody knows I am doing plan A.
The letter my W sent me has only demands but also says that we will talk about our problem after Valentine’s Day. I don’t know what I should talk to her about? Maybe I should ask her for details about the websites she’s working on? Please give me some advises. I don’t want to screw up.

Well, when all is said and done, there's either going to be a dedicated effort to restore the sanctity of your marriage, or there is not.

If there is going to be that effort, then what you could talk about would be coming up with a clear plan in regards to how you both are going to do that.

If there is not going to be that effort, then what really is there to talk about? Without that commitment, all the talks in the world will only go in cirles and (probably) cause more damage as they do.

In other words, without a commitment (from both of you) to do 'whatever it takes' to save your marriage and family, don't waste your time chasing her in conversation.

I would advise you to be prepared to (lovingly) walk away from a conversation that is just going to do more harm than good.

You could say, "You know I love you, and you know I want to save this marriage, but until you are ready to meet me in that effort, there's not a lot to talk about." Then, be prepared to leave the room.

Like I said before, you need to start gaining her respect back. That doesn't mean being a bull about things, but it does mean setting some boundries for yourself so that you aren't engaging in behaviours that are going to further damage you.

The trick is to learn how to set boundries and enforce them without Lovebusting all over the place.

J

I forgot that I knew that. adrianc, if you are not married to a Latina, ignore everything I said.

Back to sleep now.

WW is not latina.
This morning she was in a bad mood. In the afternoon she became friendlier. Actually, she’s friendlier than she's ever been after the D day. I asked her what she thought about taking our older daughter to the community centre for figure skating. She was very communicative and came up with the idea of sending our older daughter to skating classes.
I don’t understand, she’s blaming me for changing moods and she’s the one doing that regularly. Is she really an alien?

No, she is a WW. She is deep in the fog. She speaks in tongues now. It's a language for which no translation exists. There is no logic only protection for the fantasy world over the rainbow. Do not take it personally. It is not about you, it is about her. Don't react to everything she says and does. Formulate a strategy. Be consistent regardless of what your WW says and does. If you do, you have a chance to get through this. You must stop such things as wondering why she blames you for changing moods. It's her changing mood doing this. WW use their fantasy world as a prism to focus themselves onto the real world. The real world where you live.

ToddAC and I are married to Latinas. Whole nuther set of problems.

Throughout your entire post, I feel that you spend way too much time trying to interpret your WW's conversations. If she can't understand them, how could you be expected to. ToddAC is saying a good thing. Don't worry about the WW - focus on what you are saying and doing. Try as best you can to ignore what WW says.

I get the idea from your last few posts that you are getting depressed. That is good in that it is a natural progression and it will come sooner or later. If it gets too bad, see a doctor. The depression will not last but it is something you will have to endure regardless of whether you stay married or not. Calling it quits now will not make the depression go away for very long.

If you do have that talk with your WW and things are not going well, do exactly as dewt said - walk away.

We went out to see a movie tonight, together with BIL and his W.
It was OK, we had a good laugh, came back home.
She went upstairs to bed. I spoke with MIL who noticed as well my W's moods but she made no comment on that.
We'll see what happens tomorrow.
Damn fog...

One question: you say she went upstairs to bed. Why did she go alone? I am not talking necessarily SF. I am just wondering why you let her go alone and decided to stay and chat with MIL. Are you not sleeping in the same bed as WW?

Sometimes I am not sleepy at the same time as my wife. We still go to bed together. If I need to get up after she goes to sleep, I do it.

Maybe it is just me. I have seen you make that comment on more than one occasion in the other thread.

Could I ask you the favor of explaining a little better about your living arrangements? I still get confused by this and I think it would help to know.

Oops. Almost missed that.

You said that her email has a lot of demands but that she also wants to talk about it after V day.

That is also a demand (i.e. her wanting to talk about it). Only talk if that is what you want to do. Don't talk just because she tells you to. You need to get firmly in control of the schedule. Don't let WW set the timeline. Keep her off balance.

You commented earlier that you may be ready to give up. Use that emotion to your advantage. I will repeat that the secret to good negotiation is not being afraid to walk away from the deal. If you believe that you can accept either outcome (R or D), it will make you much stronger.

Oh, and as Bigger points out - if the negotiation is not going your way, don't be afraid to walk away from the negotiation (as dewt said).

You are letting fear control you to some extent. You need to understand what that stems from.

Heroes are not fearless people. Heroes are people who are afraid but act anyway. It is okay to have fear - but use it in positive ways. Make your weakness a strength.

I think you are getting lots of good advice here.

I want to add one thing... and for me, it was the most important thing...

Realize that this is not a sprint to the finish line. It's more of an endurance run. I'm two YEARS into this run and for the first year, I was so frantic with pain and chaos that I did everything absolutely wrong. The truth is that I, as a betrayed spouse, probably did more damage to our chances at reconciliation than my WW.

In my time here at MB, I've seen a lot of this, and that's why I say to you now that the best thing that you can do...

for yourself...

for your wife...

for your children...

Is to ground yourself.

Find that core of inner peace and patience. There is great strength there and other people can detect it, even if they aren't really aware of it.

Stop grasping. Get off the emotional roller coaster.

Find your own core value and use that to steer your ship by. Stop letting the unpredicable winds of your wife's moods and behaviours control your sails.

Your own inner stability should be your primary goal right now.

Develop your own personal plan and stick to it patiently and without wavering.

Again, this inner strength is detectable by others. It's very attractive and will have many many many benefits.

Hope you're doing ok.

J

We do go sleep in the same bed. Most of the time she goes early to bed. Maybe too early. That's why I ended up talking to my MIL.

I do want to talk about the email. I have to know where we go from here. She says she would end her A but she never mentioned when that would happen. Also, she's working on projects. I need to know exactly what's going on. And what is she planning to do to recover our M.

My MIL and FIL are living with us since October last year. They came from Europe to help us looking after the DDs. They will fly back to Europe at the end of April. There is no one else in the house except myself, WW and two DDs.

My plan was to stay in plan A until end of April. After that…

I will do my best to find that core of inner peace.

I will do my best to find that core of inner peace.

Well, it's a process m'man. But I'm telling ya, it makes all the difference in the world.

Also just wanted to say that I'm envious that you have the inlaws rootin' for your marriage. My inlaws are using bribes and extortion with my W to keep us from working things out. The told my W that if she and I get back together they would totally 'cut her off'. 19 years ago, my MIL actually tried to run me down with her car.

Can you imagine that? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

J

dewt, I'm sorry to hear that your inlaws are giving you such a hard time.
I woke up this morning at the usual time and did my morning run. I came back. My W was awake but in a bad mood. I asked her if she slept OK. She said “yeah” but didn’t ask me about how I slept. Not that I’ve expected that.

Bah... [/shrugs] It is what it is. I never liked her much either, and the bright side of it is that I don't have to go for any of those terminally boring visits anymore. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I do feel bad for my W because she is in a pretty nasty position... facing a choice like that.

But, like I said, "It is what it is," and there isn't a darn thing I can do about it.

I think it's great that you go running in the morning. That must take incredible self discipline, but I can also see how it would be very rewarding. Is this something you are doing to get into shape or are you doing it for primarily emotional reasons?

I'm pretty lucky, I'd say. I'm in construction and so my work day is very active. My tool belt, fully loaded weighs almost 40lbs and climbing up and down scaffolding all day keeps me trim and fit.

That being said, I spent last month in BC, snowboarding in the backcountry around Revelstoke and I'll tell ya, the first week was pretty darn humbling. I mean, I thought I was in good shape... but yikes!!! Maybe it was the altitude, but there were a couple of times I thought I wasn't gonna make it. My legs were rubber, my heart was threatening to go on strike in protest and I was pretty sure I couldn't go another step... but then my guide found the ultimate motivation:

"Can't stop now," he says, "This is an avalanche path."

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

And here I was thinking, "Oh, what a nice clearing to sit in the sun and have a little rest."

It's amazing, y'know, whether it's dealing with infidelity or climbing a mountain... you ALWAYS have more stregnth than you think you do!

J

Dewt!

I'm so glad you came out of MB hibernation...I was thinking of you when I found out Adrian was in Ontario. I couldn't think of your name, though, except John, which isn't helpful. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Wasn't LiftedUp your wife/ex?

Anyway, I knew what you went through with the courts up there. Thank you for sharing that with Adrian. And everything else, too.

LA

Hey LA, thanks for the heads up. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I had to take some time of MB cause of the exact kind of frantic behaviour I'm referring to in my posts above. There's more to it than that, but I'm planning on posting an update and I'll get more into it on that thread rather than hijack Adrian's.

My Wife/ex (I'm not sure what to call her either) posts at MB under the nick Soulloss, but she hasn't posted here in quite some time.

Ya, I sure did get dragged through the Canadian legal system, but that was in Quebec. I think Ontario has a slightly better reputation for fair courts. We can all thank our lucky stars that we don't live in BC, cause that province is know worldwide as being ridiculously biased against Fathers. It's the one and only thing that makes me feel deeply ashamed to be Canadian.

I'm planning on trying to post more often here at MB because there was a time where the folk here REALLY helped me out and I feel a sense of gratitude and obligation to try and give something back. It seems over the past few years that the core values, the things that made MB such a great place to be have been slipping away and if there's any way that I can contribute and do even a little part to make things better, well, I just want to try and do my part. Posters like you are very encouraging to me and make it easier for me to want to jump back in. So thanks to you too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

J

The OMW called me. She said that she’s had it. Therefore she spoke with a lawyer and will file for divorce next Wednesday. She emailed the OM telling him about her decision and also told him that she didn’t think there was anything to do anymore, but if he thought differently to let her know. His answer was “I read your email and I understood what you wrote.” Nothing else.

Tomorrow we’ll go out for V-day. Wednesday night I am planning to talk to my W about the “demands letter” she sent me. I don’t know what I’ll say but I have to do it.

How many kids does the OM have?

I would wait to discuss the demands letter. Tell her you are still mulling it over.

Often things change when the other BS files for divorce.

adrianc,

If you feel compelled to have that talk (and I know you have been dying to talk about this with WW), I am not expert enough to tell you what to talk about. I will say, from my position, it is equally if not more important what you DON'T talk about. I would make a crib sheet if I had to.

Thanks for the explanation on your IL's. So they came over to help for 6 months. Do you have newborn children? I was skimming through the other post and did not easily see how old your children are. If your WW recently delivered, do you know approx. when the affair started in relation to the births?

MIL and FIL from Europe? What is their ethnic background? What country are they from? Are you and WW native Canadians?

I'm with believer, Adrian...you don't have to talk about it Wednesday. When you do talk about it, keep traic's tenet of what not to say is as important as what is said.

Did OMW say why she's had it? Last you said was MOM (tough to abbreivate married other man, huh?) wasn't taking action on divorce until after the christening in April, right?

Did she update you on contact? New info? Did you tell her that WW said she would go no contact?

I would wait until after OMW actually files something...which may be a long time. My heart goes out to her with this in her lap along with postpartum time. She's got to be up and down a lot. Who is her support system?

On her going to bed early...have you considered going to bed at the same time? She didn't do this before her parents arrived, did she? Could you try doing this and getting up earlier...doing your run and having an extra half hour in the morning to be around, or get your daughters up?

One of the distancing things my H and me did during our marriage was, when I was distant, I would stay up late on the computer and H would go to bed alone. When I would grow closer to him, we shared a bedtime. Then, when he was distancing, he would stay up late with the tv and I would be the one in bed. Very imbalancing. I know in your previous posts that you say she goes upstairs in the evening and you go to the basement to play with the kids. Is this what you mean about going to bed early...or to your bedroom early, but not going to bed? How late past her exit do you actually go to bed?

LA

Thank you all for your posts and your help. It is greatly appreciated.

I guess I owe everybody a few more details about us. We’re all from Romania (myself, my W, FIL, MIL). We immigrated to Canada back in 1998 (just married). The in-laws are visitors here therefore the will have to fly back home at the end of April. We have two DDs 3 ½ and 1 ½ years old.

The OM and OMW are from the same country and have a son 14 days old… You would do that two your new born, wouldn’t you?...Just joking. Sad, isn’t it?

OK. I will avoid talking to her about the letter unless she brings it up. I will call OMW tomorrow and tell her about my W’s no contact intentions.

OMW told me that my W called the OM during the wedding on Saturday (on his cell). The OM slowly took the phone and disappeared in the bathroom. After he was done he slowly put the phone back hoping the OMW would not notice. She got upset and asked him why he was hiding from her when she’s calling him. He said he didn’t want to hurt her. Yeah, right, like you haven’t hurt her enough already.

LA, the OMW support is NADA, ZERO, ZIP. She’s got nobody here. All her relatives live back home. Very sad, right?

I am calm. Very calm.

I spoke with my MIL and she said that my W told her that she would go no contact after V day… We’ll see about that.

Did your MIL say to her daughter, "Why wait? What do you expect your adulterer to give you for V day that you can't get from your faithful husband?"

This is the kind of support I want from your inlaws. Accccck.

Poor OMW. Please do everything to get her here. Tell her we will be her support, friends and family here. No matter what she decides. Tell her she's not alone in her pain---millions have shared it. Tell her to do it for her newborn if not for herself. And that people here can give her great words to use to combat his fog about not hurting her. Orchid, especially!!!

Believer? Trac? Dewt? Should Adrian ask WW why she called OM during the wedding? Would that be okay to do? There's no one else to expose to, and I thought maybe her knowing that Adrian knows (but not how) would be a shred of light in WW darkness?

Explain to Trac about why your WW doesn't want you to talk to inlaws...FIL health, of course. Like her choices aren't a factor but Adrian's attempt to marshall their support is?

I'm glad you're calm. Running for health and stress relief, knowing you are supported, advised and encouraged here has to help. You're doing great. You really are...did you know you were this strong, committed and heroic? Did ya?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Giving you her secret cell phone would have to be part of the no contact, don't you think? And you can make a pact with OMW to update each other, 'k? Continuing contact, continuing exposure. I forget...you didn't expose to wife's employer yet, have you?

Pats on back and hugs, Adrian...hang in there...

LA

I would not ask WW why she called OM. Maybe I missed something. I think it is potentially confrontational. JMO. I believe in the bang for the buck philosophy.

Okay this is all suddenly more interesting but also red flags are starting to pop out.

Not to get sidetracked - there is a purpose. How would you say your WW has adjusted to living in Canada? Was she extremely close to her natal family back in Romania? How has she adjusted to the language, eh? I am asking all this for a reason. Forget about the A for just a moment. Aside from that, what has been your WW's attitude since 1998?

It is interesting that the OM is also from her home country - speaks her language, understands her traditions and culture. I think there may be some deep meaning behind her choice for an affair partner. On the other hand, you did say he was your best friend so exposure had a lot to do with it as well.

One other question but all cultures are different. In general, how are affairs regarded in Romania? Are they common? What is a typical Romanian's attitude to an affair? I ask this because I want to understand MIL and FIL a little better.

BTW, It is great to get MIL and FIL support. Just don't reveal your Plans to them. They are unpredictable and can do or say the wrong things with good intentions. Let them take up a flanking position. Let their support be in addition to your effort - not an integral part of it.

adrianc, based on your last post, I am beginning to wonder if your wife is in a severe depression (I am a chemical engineer - not a psychologist) and has been for some time. Is there a URL here somewhere on signs of depression? It may be that the A is not the real issue here.

I also meant to say that I too would prefer to avoid or delay that talk about the email. You are looking at this as a chance to open up a discussion. I think you are bursting with things you want to say and hear said. Personally, as I said before, you don't have to talk just because WW said to and I just don't think you are ready yet. It is amazing how far you have progressed in the past few days but I think you need more time because right now you are an unknown quantity.

I think that he should just hang in there for awhile.

It would be good if the other man's wife could come here for support.

For some reason, there are lots of men that cheat during a pregnancy. I just don't get it. They almost always go back to their family. Anyway, I will be SHOCKED if he doesn't.

This whole situation is still up in the air. That's why he should stall for time. Things may be going on behind the scenes. A talk with his wife isn't going to go well. She is still WAY OUT THERE.

Believer,

Correct me if I'm wrong. You're saying that I shouldn't talk to the OMW?


Traicionado,

She was OK after we moved her (including the language). Things got bad after her BIL with his W moved here. I have always had contradictory discussions with him and my W was not happy with that. My in-laws are against divorce. Especially FIL. That's the mentality back home.

I do believe that my wife is having a depression, but I can't help her because she doesn't accept anyone's help.

LA,

If I didn't meet you at MB I probably wouldn't be writing this post. I didn't realize that I was so strong. 6 weeks ago I didn't see myself here. I have no words to describe how much you've helped me no matter how this will end. You're great!
I will tell the OMW about MB.

One question. Tomorrow is V day. Should I send her an email or an e-card? I was only planning to get a rose for tomorrow night.

Please read my previous post.

I have a big question and I need help!


I just checked her emails. I was curious to see if the OM forwarded my W the email he got from his W regarding the divorce. He didn't. But guess what? I found out that they will go see a movie Wednesday at 5.00PM, but I don’t know the theatre. Instead of coming home, to her family, to her DDs she is spending time with her lover. Should I tell her on Thursday that a coworker of mine saw her in the theatre with another man? Should I do that in my in-laws' presence?

No, I'm saying you shouldn't discuss things with your wife just yet. She is still way out there.

You should probably ignore the movie thing. It is sad that they don't seem to care about their family, but that is the way they are.

But have some hope. I don't think the affair will last.

adrianc,

You know your WW is having an affair. The movie thing is tough but, if you can, just let it go. Other option is to show up at the theater yourself and meet them face-to-face and be polite. Offer to buy them popcorn. This movie thing seems critical but, in the greater scheme of things, doesn't mean that much. If you can ignore it, do.

I am going to get back to Romania. Who have you exposed this to back home? If you have not exposed, why not? As embarrassing as being caught in an A is to your WW, she is being exposed to people she has no real ties to. If she is taking up a career in web-site design, she can do that from anywhere in the world. It is a low margin business so I am sure she can find a cheaper place to operate from than Canada. All you need is a broadband connection and you are good to go.

I would set up a plan of exposure in Romania. This will have far more impact on WW than exposing to friends in Canada.

It is good that MIL and FIL are against adultery. The bad news is that they now know about it and your WW has survived that threat. No more joy there. In fact, it probably is reinforcing her behavior now.

I am not saying take out an ad in the Romanian Gazette - but you need to expose this to key people there. Just remember that you are not exposing to seek revenge.

First question...the rose is sufficient, I would think, along with a card, even homemade from you and the girls. Did you get your daughters some valentines and candy? Hey, it is for the women of your heart, right? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

So sorry about the movie...especially as it will definitely be contact after V Day, huh! Well, if you say something about a coworker seeing them at the theater, and if they didn't go to a theater...well, you can see how your communication monitoring might be exposed.

If you know where the theater is, what time they are planning on the movie, you, daughters, FIL & MIL could all go to see a flick there, right? I think that would be the best coarse. Then you'll know if they are there or not.

Not just you, but the lot of you. And you know what? They won't suspect you new...God guides, you know? It can happen. If you know what movie, and it isn't age appropriate for your girls, I'm sure they have one at the same theater that is, so that would be why FIL & MIL were along, eh? You and he are going to see the same one WW is, and MIL takes girls to other film? When you see them there, leave, as a group; you don't have to go through with it.

Just my idea on movie. You may want to disregard as Believer suggested. Guess it is no on the calling during wedding, huh? See, I had a few, "Help me comprehend" discussions with WH, so that's where I come up with this stuff. "I see you called OW today." "It was about work." "So you aren't having contact?" Pause..."Yes." "Did you say you had feelings for her?" "Yes. I can't help it if she calls me." "Did you talk to her in our house?" "No, I went to my car. I felt stupid. I was going to tell you about it but I hadn't had the chance."

That was before committing to marriage, but after dropping OW. Different time and place. I did it calmly, thank goodness, and said, "I see." Each punch I took without DJ or AO, built my H's confidence to tell me truths he'd withheld because he "didn't want to cause me pain." Well, they were painful, but what he meant was, "I won't tell you unless you don't LOOK to be in pain." It worked.

LA

So you have issues with BIL and don't respect MIL and FIL (your words in your posts - not mine).

Do you think in your marriage that you were trying, even subconsciously, to create distance between your WW and her family? Answer honestly to yourself.

Traicionado,
I never intended to create distance between my WW and her family. Subconsciously, maybe. But how can I fix that? It's kind of too late, isn't it? I explained several times to my WW, my MIL, my FIL that I only had good intentions...
Apparently, everybody knows back home. Everybody knows here. Only her employer doesn’t know. But how can I expose there? I have no proof except for the emails I read which I am not suppose to see (it is company’s email address – through webmail).

LA,
I can't go to the movies with the girls. They're too young. But I would go at least with my MIL if I knew the theatre. I would love to make my MIL see with her own eyes the truth.

believer,
IMHO, as long as they will work together on the website the A will not end. She is so happy when she works on that stuff because after she’s done she emails him her part of the code and eventually calls him. It’s not about her carrier even though this is what she says. It’s about working together with him on that website.

Why do you guys think that the A will not last? What do you think is going to happen so they will break up? What might cause a fight between them? Is the OM’s baby going to affect him? If the OM and the OMW will get divorced, is that going to help me or not?

The OM will go on Wednesday morning with his W to see the lawyer (if the OMW doesn’t change her mind) and in the afternoon he will go with my WW to the movies. Everything seems to be perfect for them.

No it is never too late. You are operating under the premise that people (i.e. you) can change. If you don't believe that, give up. Personally I don't believe that people can change - but I do believe they can grow.

I go back to your "grumpy moods". That makes me think of passive-agressive behavior. I get the idea that you have been forcing your WW (maybe on an unconscious level) to make a choice between you or her family. That is tough. You sounded like you loved your WW so much that you did not want to share her with anybody - including her own family.

If I did my mental math right, you moved to Canada pretty much on your honeymoon. You took WW away from everything she knew in one fell swoop. Whose idea was it to move to Canada anyway? Was it mutual? You don't need to answer that - just think about it. Look at it from WW's perspective. She goes to a new country, new life, lost family and friends. International moves are a very traumatic experience (I have done 9 of them).

It may sound like I am picking on you right now and I guess I am. I have total confidence in believer, LA and others so I am going to focus on you for just a minute.

You asked how can you fix it. You tell me. I don't know but if I were in your shoes, I would go hat-in-hand to BIL and beg his forgiveness. I would do the same to MIL and FIL but individually. You need to build bridges back to her family and this is not for her benefit. You should do it because it is the right thing to do. Don't even tell WW you are doing it. You need to dig way down and find out what this problem is and get over it. Were you jealous of her family? Did it bother you when she would have fun with them and you felt like an outsider?

I won't keep picking on you BTW but there is something here you need to get to the root of. Let's just figure it out and then move forward. We still don't know what the triggers were that cause the A. That is where I am going with this. Also remember that I am not a psychologist.

Yes. That is the beauty of an affair. Everything SEEMS perfect. That is the attraction.

Affairs never last. I think things will end soon. A new baby is going to change it for them. Husbands usually go back to their families. You just need to hang in there and not LB your poor lost wife.

I have been together with my WW since July 1992. In 1993 I have decided to immigrate to Canada after I graduate university. Never had a contradictory conversation with my WW (my girlfriend at that time) about that. In March 1998 I came here alone. In October 1998 I flew back home to get married and quickly came back to Canada and applied for sponsoring my WW so she can get a residence visa as fast as possible. In May 1999 my WW came here. I waited for her in an empty apartment. I told her that I didn’t buy anything because I wanted to do it with her…

You’re probably asking yourselves why didn’t we get married before and come here at the same time. I have applied for a residence visa when I was not married and I guess I believed that changing my marital status would delay the processing of my file.

By the time she came here, most of our friends have already immigrated here. So, if you think about it, only the country has changed but the friends were still the same people.

It was tough in the beginning getting used with the language, finding a job, making the down payment for the house, and so on, but we made it. We supported each other and believed in each other. After that the kids arrived and everything seemed to be OK. We had my in-laws here for six months, helping us with the kids and after that my parents, for another six months, helping us. In 2004 my BIL with his W immigrated here as well. Having said all that, we had everything! Good jobs, great house, two beautiful daughters, our parents, our brothers (I have a brother too, who lives 20 minutes from here). I can hear my friends telling me “We envy you for your lifestyle. You are a lucky man. We’d love to be in your shoes.”

The rest of it you all know it. But what the triggers were that caused the affair is still a mystery.

I am going to bed now.

P.S. I am not sure about me didn’t want to share my WW with her family. I have always loved, for example, say, Christmas with the whole family or spending time at her parents’. Also, I love paying visits to our friends, going out with them or going together to a party. All of that together with my WW.

Believer? Trac? Dewt? Should Adrian ask WW why she called OM during the wedding?

Lemmee ask you this... is there even a remote possibility that you would get an answer that you want to hear?

I personally think that calling one's affair partener during a wedding is in EXTREMELY bad taste. If it were me, I would be bursting at the seams to say that, but again, I don't think it would get you anywhere you want to go. And for me, that was one of the biggest battles to fight... choosing between what I want now, and what I want most. I tell ya, (and many on these boards could back me up) that I lost that personal battle many many times. At best, my failures put back the schedule of our recovery by many months, if not years. It's just as likely that those indescretions will have cost me my marriage. At this point, only time will tell.

It was only once I stopped trying to control the situation that I started getting anywhere in terms of healing and drawing closer to my wife. It was only once I stopped trying to DO things that things (good things) started to happen.

So based on that, and also the fact that every couple, every situation is different, I'm hesitant to give actual advice on what to do.

On the other hand, you could probably consider me the resident expert on what NOT to do.

Like for example, don't ask her why she called her affair partner during someone's wedding. No good can come of it.

Course now that I've written all that, I'll ask you if you've considered asking your inlaws for some direct help with the situation. What if they went out 'to the movies' tommorrow night while you stayed home?

Will they be around tommorrow evening?

What do you think your W would say if they asked her where she was going on valentine's day evening? Sure she would probably lie through her teeth, but if they knew before hand that she was lying, do you think they could put the kind of pressure on her that you, as her spouse cannot?

Also, I strongly suggest you quietly go see a lawyer (a good one) and see what steps you can take to protect yourself and your children if things don't get any better. Perhaps a case could be made for abuse, which would give you a leg up if it ever goes that far. Don't allow yourself any false sense of security... wayward spouses are known for insane behaviour and if you are not prepared, you could find yourself holding the dirty end of a very ugly stick.

If she does go out tommorrow evening, it will be very very tough. Trust me, I know way too much about this. My wife's affair was with our roommate... just down the hall from me, and I spent too many nights sobbing by myself while they enjoyed themselves. But I got through it, and learned from it, and became stronger. Way way way stronger, and in the end, I'm a better man because of all that I experienced.

Just keep in mind that ALL THINGS PASS... and this will too.

I got a question for you now... are you a spiritual man? Do you believe/read/own a Bible?

John

dewt,

I liked your comment "once I stopped trying to control the situation". You are exactly right. The situation is uncontrollable in that it involves several people with free wills. For some reason this always reminds me of the movie "Bruce Almighty".

I also see there is danger in too much information. You start obsessing with the details and lose sight of the big picture. I would avoid the movie scene unless somebody had a camera to get a photo for the permanent record. MIL and FIL already know about the affair and, more importantly, WW knows they know. What real good will come out of them catching WW and OM? Hard to have SF in a movie theater. The movie is too easily explained away by a lying WW. If MIL and FIL do find them at the movie (and remember we don't know which theater it is), they should go one step further - invite OM and WW out for coffee after the movie and then drive WW home (without OM). Please keep in mind I still think you should just leave the movie alone.

adrianc,

Thanks for filling in the gaps. I'll stop picking on you now. I want to go back through and try to piece this together a bit. I think your fears regarding visa issues were probably well founded. I don't know much about Canadian immigration but I am betting you got a lot of good advice before you made that decision. Please don't get defensive about any of this. We are only trying to help.

Do you still keep all your Romanian traditions and celebrations alive? Since you have so many Romanians around, I guess you probably do.

I also noticed that you left your new bride all alone for about 6 months. Has that ever been an issue with her? Did she ever criticize you for it?

Sorry adrianc,

I was going back and rereading your thread. You said earlier - "I do want to talk about the email. I have to know where we go from here."

1) Don't have the talk.
2) If you do have the talk, what you said above should not be any part of that discussion.
3) You should not ask WW where you you are going from here. You should explain it to her. You are setting the terms - not her.
4) Please avoid having the talk.
5) See #1 and #4 above.

Good luck today (tomorrow?)

dewt,

It looks like there is a misunderstanding here. My WW is not going to go to the movies today (V day). It's going to be tomorrow. Today she will go out with me. But that would be the "second part". I read her emails again and found out that she emailed her boss last night telling her that she'll be in today around 10.00AM due to some personal issues. Now I am asking you, what is she going to do from 6.20AM (when she left home) until 10.00AM? I guess I know the answer: she's going to meet the OM. She got dressed very nice today, a mini skirt, polish her nails last night, use her best perfume and so on. It hurt me earlier today when I saw her all dressed up. I already knew that she's not going straight to work. Also she took a bag (she didn't expect me to see it) with a paper towel and some underwear. I asked her "what's in the bag" and she said "I got to change after I go to the gym at lunch time". And I am supposed to believe that. I told myself to stay calm.

I did ask my in-laws for direct help. Only my MIL MIGHT influence my WW but so far she's been pretty unsuccessfully. Look at this morning event + the movie thing. I mean, my WW tells her mother that she will go no contact after V day and she's scheduling to go to the movies with him the day after V day.
My In-laws don't know I know about the movie thing. They don't know I can check her emails.

Even if I told them about the movie I couldn't send my in-laws there because none of them have a valid driver license in Canada.

traicionado,

I will avoid the discussion about the email with her. Believe me I will bite my tongue to keep my mouth shut. Let's say that I won't say anything about the email and she won't say anything about the email. Then what? I let it go like nothing happened? She will keep going on with the A forever? It drives me crazy. And the movie thing tomorrow is going to kill me.

Also, how do I tell my in-laws that I know more than they think I know? Maybe then I will get more help from them.

No she will not go on with the A forever. That is the point. The A will die a death. It needs time.

I said earlier that maybe you are getting too much info. You are not learning anything truly valuable by reading her emails so stop reading them. All it is doing is stressing you and that will not help you with Plan A. Just take those emails and forward them to a separate account you have all your own in case you need them in the future. You are being distracted by things well beyond your control and losing focus on what you really need to be doing.

I repeat - you already know she is having an affair. Why do you need to know details? Should you tell her boss she missed work because she was off shagging your best friend? Where is your proof? I know it hurts but you just need to be willing to lose a few battles and try to win the war.

Let's talk about what MIL can really do to help. My MIL told WW that, if she did not stop the A, that WW was dead as far as MIL was concerned and she could never go "home" again. That was pretty good support. What can you MIL do for you? And does she want to?

I made a mistake this morning by talking to my MIL. I told her I was suspsicous about my WW, that she might not go straight to work today. My MIL told my WW about that and she sent me an email clarifing this. She said "I was at work at 7.00AM, didn't call you because I was busy, I had in the bag clothes for fitness club and napkins for my desk. I got dressed that way not because it's V day but because it makes me fell better at work"

What do I do know? Should reply to her? What do I tell her?

This is what I have been trying to tell you. MIL may be well-intentioned but she is a loose cannon.

Ignore the email. Just hope she doesn't ask how you knew. If you respond to the email, you will either grovel or end up in a fight. Say nothing. There is no benefit to responding to the email.

OK. I was planning not to say anything about that email but I just wanted to get someone else's opinion. Thank you.
As for MIL I saw the MSN log between herself and my WW. Basically my MIL told her that she should end her affair and go for no contact at least for a while. My WW didn't seem to be very happy with her mother's idea. I guess the fog is very thick.

I am going to take my WW to Dave & Busters tonight for V day. I didn’t choose a romantic place because I don’t think is fits us. I don’t know what we are going to talk about.

Anyways, I am not checking her emails anymore.

You can bet that she went to see the OM. The infidels just can't seem to stay away from each other on Valentine's Day. That is why private detectives love this day. Lots and lots of them get caught today.

Your job is to stay in Plan A. Take her out like you planned, and stay out of marriage/relationship discussions. Just tell her that you want to enjoy the evening with no serious talk. Otherwise she will bait you into an argument.

I spoke earlier with the OMW. She told me that she and the OM had a chat last night. He told her that he didn’t understand what was going on with him. He asked her for help. He was worried that she wants to get someone to come in for house appraisal. “Do you want to do it this week already?” he asked her. She told me that he was scared, not very enthusiastic about going to see the lawyer for divorce papers and was crying like a baby.

I asked the OMW to hold on a few more days and not file for divorce. I hope that something is going to happen in the next few days.

I am sticking to plan A and I will take my WW out tonight and not discuss about our problem at all. That’s a promise I’ve made to myself.

Can she come here and at least read? I think that OM will have second thoughts. It happens all of the time, especially with a new baby.

Somehow you and she need to hang in there. Look at this as a war, not just one battle.

Adrian, just posting to let you know that I'm thinking of you this evening and hoping that everything goes nice and smooth.

Here's an idea for exposure that you may find interesting... it's pretty extreme and I'd urge you to give it some careful thought and consideration before following through...

After no contact had been promised, I got into one of my wife's email accounts and found that her affair partner had been continuing to send love notes. There were also a couple of 'joke' emails that had been sent to all the other people on the APs contact list.

What I did was forward the 'love note' to ALL the people on her list, and included a small note from me explaining the situation and asking all these people (strangers) to help save my marriage by urging OP to stay away from my wife. I'd guess 25-30 people got this email, many of them at work.

I did not forward this to any of the contacts on my Wife's contact list as when I found these emails, they had obviously not been read, but the fallout that OP experienced was HUGE!

HUGE! HUGE! HUGE! HUGE!

I felt really bad doing it, because revenge is really not my style and really and truly I had (and have) not bad feelings towards OP. But, the point is that it was extremely extremely effective. Effective to the point that when I last heard, OP was planning on leaving town forever.

Anyway, I was just talking with my Wife about that today, and although she still has pretty hard feelings about me doing that, I'm pretty sure that killed any and all contact between them.

I thought I'd share that with you. It's well established that exposure is the number 1 affair killer, and I'll tell ya, that is one HECK of an exposure.

Something to think about.

J

adrianc,

I can't speak for everybody but I am in communication with a few other BS's aside from this forum. Let me assure you of one thing - WE ALL HATE PLAN A! So don't feel so alone. It hurts me to think that I have to be so nice to someone who has betrayed not only me but also some of my fundamental beliefs. I just remind myself that I love WW and would give my life for her. Do you remember way back in this thread when I asked you what "pure love" was? You never answered. Why don't you take some time today and just think about love - what it is. When I get really down about Plan A, I go back and remember the times before the A. I remember how happy WW made me and I made her. These are just some things that work for me. You need to find what works for you and, whatever that is, practice it and get really good at it.

You are doing some positive things. You have been creating a lot of your own stress and it has been driving you crazy. I think if you stay away from the emails it will help a lot and you will see you stress go way down. One of the things that happens to us BS's is that our perception becomes extremely acute. We notice everything. What shoes did your W have on when she went to work yesterday? I only ask that because women say we never notice shoes and that is the first thing they notice. I never have understood that.

You need to do a couple of things IMO. You need to stop planning your course to such detail. I said before you are not the people in SAA. I personally adopt a very long term view (i.e. R) and a very short term view (today). You have been trying to play chess. The problem is that chess follows rules and a WW and a OM don't.

That is great news about OM and OMW. Go back and read what believer told you a few days ago. Didn't she predict that? Why is she so smart I wonder?

Okay that is sort of good news. The bad news is that has nothing to do with WW. Focus on WW and Plan A. Focus on you and your mental health. It won't do you any good to successfully recover if you are going to spend the rest of your life in a rubber room.

There is something I wanted to say about one of your posts from a few days ago. You were talking about how you wanted to know where things were going with WW and you wanted to talk to her about it. How about trying to look at it differently? How about deciding in your mind that you already know where this is going? You have decided that you and WW will successfully recover. You and WW will have a stronger marriage than ever. You and WW will live happily ever after. You already know it - WW just has not seen it yet but will eventually. Your job is to give her time and guide her there.

Adrian, at this point, you should go back up a post and reread what Traic just wrote. It has some awesome insight and is more true than you might realize.

What kept me going was the thought that I wasn't fighting to win back my wife as she was, but I was fighting more for a way better future somewhere down the road. Now, even though the road has been very hard, I'm glad that I picked myself up from my own blunders and didn't let the pain of my experience totally make all my choices for me.

I know, without a shadow of a doubt, with all of my entire being, that if things work out between me and my W, that it will be the best frikken marriage EVER!!! I also know that if things don't work out, that I will have the skills and tools to build a great and satisfying relationship with someone else in the future. It's like a no-lose scenario.

I like scenarios where I can't lose. Don't you? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

John

Thank you all for your posts.

Here is how the V day was:
The "date" was a cold one.
No kiss on the cheek for the rose I gave her.
No real attention paid by her during dinner.
Eye contact avoided as much as possible.
Conversation was made only for saying something but never got a real point. I tried to bring the girls into the picture, talked about vacation but the idea was kind of rejected. She told me a story from her work. I laughed a little bit but...
We played some of those games. I looked at her and realized that she was physically there but mentally was you know where.
After we left she didn't say anything regarding the dinner or the games. She never thanked me for taking her out for V day.
But hey, who am I to have demands?


traicionado,
For me pure love is when whatever I do, I do it for my W to see her happy. My efforts would double is she's not happy. Pure love is when nothing matters except my W's happiness. And I know that if I tell her to leave with the OM then I will make her unhappy. I know that they wouldn't last for too long together. That's why I want to go for R.

dewt,
I like the no-lose scenario. So far, I already fell good knowing that all my friends appreciate me for what I am doing to save my marriage. I am going to think about your email scheme. But since I decided not to check her emails anymore...

Actually I told my WW that if leaving to be with the OM was what would make her happy, I would fully support it. I can't decide what will make my W happy - only she can do that.

Stay away from the emails. I think dewt did that in a different context (like maybe after NC was supposedly established). You say you have exposed as much as you can already. You know that WW and OM are still in full flaming A. An email campaign right now will not prove anything.

Go back and read your thread over the past 48 hours. Look at how you have stressed over the "movie" email. At the end of the day, you decided to do nothing about it (as it should be). But look at how much energy, stress, lost sleep it caused you. Look at all the posts people sent you giving you advice about it. If you had never read that email, you could have spent that time much more productively. Think about how many man-hours (you and us) were totally wasted by that email. Look at the "late for work" email. That one blew up in your face. Stay away from the emails already.

Later, after your WW supposedly is in NC, the emails will be worth checking again.

Let's consider the bigger problem. The biggest problem with the A is loss of trust. I don't know how you get that back. I know WW will have a lot of responsibility in that. You are so paranoid right now that you are becoming your biggest risk of failure for recovery. You know you can't trust WW right now. You know she is a lying cheat right now. Accept it and move on. Don't try to continually seek proof of that which you already know. Who are you trying to convince?

I am going to give you another analogy because I think it applies to you. I'll give it a shot anyway.

On December 29, 1972 an Eastern Airlines jet crashed into the Florida everglades just prior to landing. The air crash investigation resulted in this being a classic textbook example of how everything went wrong while the crash could have been entirely avoided. It is still taught to pilots today as a lesson in crisis management.

In the cockpit of that plane were a pilot, co-pilot and a navigator. They were making preparations for landing and lowered the landing gear. As they did this, the indicator light showing that the gear was down and locked did not light up. The pilot and co-pilot repeated the procedure with the same result. The pilot got out of his seat so he could look at the light more closely. Both he and the co-pilot tapped the light to see if it might be a fault and mybe get it to light up. Nothing. They argued about whether the gear was really down or not. They played with the light for a while with no good result. It refused to light up. Finally the pilot told the navigator to go below and look at the gear to see if he could visually confirm it was down. He got his flashlight, opened the hatch and went below. Meantime the two pilots were still focused on that light trying to see what the problem was. The navigator finally was checking the gear and he could see that it was down and properly locked and he yelled that to the captain. He also saw something else. Through the hole in the plane where the gear was, he saw the reflection of the moon where it should not have been. Then he realized that they were just a very few feet above the water of the everglades. By the time he yelled to the captain, it was too late. The plane crashed. 100 of 176 people perished.

The investigation showed that the problem was a faulty indicator light. A 50 cent light bulb had burned out. There had never been anything wrong with the landing gear. Everybody was so focused on that light, nobody remembered that the plane was no longer on autopilot. At any time they could have simply looked out the window and realized their position. They never did. Not once. If they had not all been so focused on something that was never a real problem to begin with, they would have landed safely.

I think dewt did that in a different context (like maybe after NC was supposedly established).

Yes, that is exactly the case. And I think you make a great point about obsessing over it to the point of being the bigger threat to the marriage. I know full well that I myself was at that point for a while.

In the end I stopped checking my wife's emails. I realized how much harm it was doing to me. I also realized that my wife is intelligent enough that having been caught once, there's no way she would be caught again. I gave the whole thing to God and just let it go.

As for your valentine's date, all things considered, it sounds like it went as well as could be expected. Like I posted before, this is more of a marathon than a sprint to the finish line.

One thing ya gotta realize about people having affairs...

On one hand, you have the serial cheaters, who cheat and lie and sneak and have no problem doing it.

On the other hand, you have genuinely good people who get sucked into a situation that goes against all their core values. This amounts to a terrible battle going on inside them, and the conflict can be very overwhelming.

We as human beings are hardwired to avoid pain. It's a psychological fact. In fact, we will do much much more to avoid pain than we will do to gain pleasure.

I believe that this is the basis for what we at MB call "the wayward's fog". The wayward knows that what they are doing is despicable. They can see the pain they are inflicting on their spouse, who they do love. They look at their children and on some level, they are VERY aware that what they are doing is going to harm their children. To deal with this pain, they re-write the history of the relationship. They remember and emphasize only the bad things... sometimes they even make stuff up and convince themselves that things in the marriage were truly unbearable. They come up with all sorts of justifications for their behaviour. They purposely promote conflict with the sole purpose of creating more distance between them and their spouse. Why? So that they can live with themselves.

That's why your wife seems so distant from you. She has to be, otherwise the inner conflict will tear her apart.

In fact, to tell the truth, if you had posted that she'd been all full of affection tonight, I'd have some very very grave concerns about your chances of saving your marriage.

Your wife's behaviour... tonight... and the insane demands of her email, all tell me that she's a person of integrity who loves you and who is trying very hard to justify her behaviour to her own self. Think of it. That email she sent you was insane. Those demands COMPLETELY unreasonable. There's no way you could agree to those, in fact any normal sane person would be outraged by such an email. It would be perfectly natural for you to be so upset by that email that you would start an argument with her. That would then allow her to justify her actions... because in her mind, YOU are the one who is being unreasonable.

This is the part of the reason the MB tactics work. If you are doing a good Plan A, you don't rise to the bait of emails like that. You don't react badly to evenings like the one you had tonight. It's not a quick fix, but it does a helluva lot to diffuse those justifications that allow her to keep on with her affair.

Here's another good example. She's promised to go NC after valentines day. I suppose it's possible, but I'd bet my last dollar that it's a complete crock. What happens when you find out contact is still continuing? You get upset, more dischord, all of a sudden, she doesn't feel so bad about continuing contact.

The Harley Plan recommends a good 6 months of Plan A before going to Plan B. My intuition tells me that it won't be that long in your case, but it also tells me that this affair isn't over yet. I don't want to discourage you, but I also want you to be prepared to hold your ground and not be crushed when things don't go as you hope they will.

If I were you, I'd continue to be focused on being pleasant. That doesn't mean you allow yourself to be a doormat, but read like crazy on this site and learn as much as you can.

Here's a good place to start:basic concepts
But specifically, read up on:lovebusters
And become a darned EXPERT on Plan A

If you get through all that and your coffee is still warm, you can keep going by reading some of Harley's articles

Anyway I'm going next door to visit my wife/ex-wife/bestfriend (we're not really sure what the heck we are) and then going to bed.

I sincerely hope you are doing well.

Oh yeah, one more thing... Traic, that airplane story... that's pretty freaky.

John

adrianc,

One thing you need to be prepared for is confrontation. Once you have a well-established Plan A, this is going to frustrate WW. You are going to see her start provoking you. She may not realize she is doing it but she will do it anyway. She wants to create a conflict. Then, once the conflict is created, she will justify in her mind that she needs to go see OM to soothe her feelings. Even if you don't argue back, she will still blow everything out of proportion. WW's just do this. It is a natural part of withdrawal. It may not have happened yet but it will soon enough. Just be prepared for it. The best thing you can do is just remain calm. Don't fall into her trap.

You are going to see her start provoking you.

So true. Blame and unreasonable demands are likely to be a very popular tactics, judging by the email she sent you. Ideally, by educating yourself on the "wayward script" you can see it coming and have your reactions prepared beforehand. When you understand it, and are expecting it, it's a lot easier to see it coming and it doesn't hurt quite as bad either.

Adrian,

See why moving your post helps? I wouldn't have thought of that...Trac & dewt seeing that she will start provoking you. I had no clue. I'm sure I did it. I know WH did. Didn't think of it.

What book are you reading now? His Needs/Her Needs?

LA

dewt,

Where is that script printed? I could use it. Does it come in a Cliff Notes version? (Are any of you old enough to remember what Cliff Notes are?)

LovingAnyway,

Can you please give some input on this from your perspective?

ardianc,

I hope things have gone well the past day and things have calmed a bit. I have been wanting to talk about MIL for the past few days but never could get it in. It bothered me again most of the night so feel I should bring it up now. First, please understand that the only things I know about Romania are what I have seen on Discovery Channel and Dracula movies. Your MIL's attitude still puzzles me so I don't know if it is cultural (i.e. she is Romanian). I have not lived everywhere in the world but I have covered most of it. One thing I have seen that is pretty much universal is that most mothers tend to treat their daughters as their little children and always want to tell them what to do. Your MIL does not do that.

It bothers me that MIL went to the hospital to see the OMW but maybe they have known her many years and felt it was the polite thing to do. Don't know. I hope that was the reason. You said MIL told WW about the "late for work" email. Was it a scolding or a "head's up"? Did you hear what was said for yourself?

If I remember right, MIL is only In Canada for maybe 6 more weeks more or less. If MIL is truly against this A, I would like to see her step up her effort. Most good children do not want to look bad in ther parents' eyes. We are operating under dewt's assumption that WW is a good person that made a bad mistake (and I am betting it is a good assumption). A WW can lie to you, friends, family, pastor but they know they are just little girls in mom's eyes. Most children don't want to hurt their parents in any way. The fog is also thick unfortunately.

If MIL is truly in favor of WW saving her M with you (and I am not yet convinced), then you need to enlist her help and get as much as you can out of her for the remainder of her stay in Canada.

The MIL and FIL should either be adamantly against the A and totally ashamed of their daughter or totally in her corner asking her what she ever saw in you to begin with. This A is serious stuff. Look at all the people who will suffer. I can't accept that MIL and FIL are such wet biscuits so why are they? Don't they realize that their grandkids will be permanently affected by this?

If MIL and FIL are against the M, cancel their visas and ship them home now. If they are pro M, tell them they need to get their butts in gear. If they can be an asset, maybe you can get input here on things they can do and say. Just remember to not let MIL in on your primary plans and ideas. Keep her program aside from yours. Always show MIL how much you are trying to save the M and always remind MIL how much you love WW without going overboard. I guess just try to show MIL that you are being the kind of husband that she would want FIL to be if they were in your situation. Don't appear weak, indecisive, sappy, etc. to MIL. Show her how strong you are.

Okay - I got that off my chest.

I am no expert on this but I would like to see other posters' input.

Trac,

Have to say, cancelling visas would be a heckuva Plan B letter and you validated my creative suggestion for Adrian to do just that. I agree wholeheartedly with your perspective because they are present, in the house, and I think you read where I said standing by when someone does evil and not acting against is also evil...I meant the ILs.

I would also like to understand Adrian's feelings about ILs better. From what I read, he is polite, inclusive and respectful. Could this be a triangle of conflict avoidance?

I believe MIL is not to be trusted as an ally and have no clue why. I don't comprehend her agenda or perspective. Could she have an affair in her past?

So, we're in the same frame of mind on the ILs...though I believe FIL just as culpable. He's demonstrated he is affected and has an emotional response. Maybe they both have the belief that to interfere (take action) is disrespectful?

What do you think about a Plan B letter just for ILs right now?

And what does Adrian's parents say about all of this? Adrian, do you call your folks?

We're here for you. I very much appreciate Trac and Dewts thoughts and efforts. And prayers and mindfulness. Thank you so much for being here.

LA

Trac-

LOL @ "Are any of you old enough to remember what Cliff Notes are?"

And yes, unfortunately, I am.

God Bless,

-Caren

Ditto to Caren's admission...

I remember them, too!

An update...I found where my son printed out the "Sparknotes" for The Great Gatsby. Online and free.

Arrrgghhhhh.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Yeah, I didn't use Cliff Notes. I was too cheap and felt that they were used against me, the reader, the addict. :::: I've come a long way, baby.

Remember that one?

LA

LA,

I am leaving for Bahrain this AM and will give it some thought. I hated to suggest this because I think adrianc generally needs to shift out of surveillance mode right now but, if there were one thing I would really like to know, it would be exactly what MIL and WW say. I would love to hear a few of those conversations.

MIL has always been a yellow flag (caution) for me and I can't put my finger on why. I have seen (in the original thread) some possible conflict issues between adrianc and the IL's. The finger swatting, grumpy moods, etc. I still think maybe adrianc had some past PA behavioral issues with them and maybe there are some hard feelings. Maybe MIL never approved of the M from the beginning. Don't know. Something just doesn't fit with MIL.

I would like to find a way to understand what is really going on inside that brain of MIL. Hidden recorders? I feel like I am feeding the paranoia beast again - it is such a hungry animal. If I were in adrianc's shoes, rightly or wrongly, I would spy on MIL for a few days. I would like to hear what MIL and FIL discuss regarding the A also. I would just like to understand what they are really all about. Are they allies, enablers or just pathetic milquetoasts that occupy more space on the planet than they deserve? (Ouch! Where did that come from? Sorry...)

LA,

You mean the cigarette? Yes I still remember the tune.

Hello everybody,

It’s been a very, very, long day for me. I woke up 5.15, did my usual 1 ½ mile run (I should increase it, shouldn’t I) and hit the road at 6.15. It was again that day of the week when I had to go on the business trip. Boring as usual. Same drive from Toronto to Detroit and back, same people to meet at Ford and so on.

On my way back from Detroit the OM’s wife called me. She was home, just came back from the lawyer. She went there with the OM. They did a draft for legal separation agreement. The OM was crying all the time. After they left the lawyer’s office the OMW asked him “If the OW would call you today and asked you to move out with her, would you do it?” His answer was “Yes, I want to be with her”. The OMW was crying as well and told me that her whole life she dreamed about giving her child the childhood she’s never had (her mother died when she was very young so she was basically raised by her father only).

On my way back home I decided to try the parking lot of the closest theater from our home. Guess what. I saw my W’s minivan and shortly after that the OM’s car parking right beside it. I could watch up to the point where the held hands together. Then I decided to turn my head, turn on the engine and leave. I said to myself: “Last thing you need is to have an image of them in your mind doing more than holding hands together” So I drove away. She came home at 9.00PM! The movie ended at 6.30 and it takes you about 10 minutes to drive form there to our house. I was in the living room with our older daughter watching Little Mermaid. She came in, went straight upstairs without saying a single word. She ignored both me and our older daughter. The layout of our hose is that way that you can walk upstairs without being seen from the living room. I heard someone walking upstairs and then I realized she went straight there. Looks like she had a long chat with the OM. And since she didn’t have the strength to tell me face to face she was having an affair, I guess I will get an email from her tomorrow morning with some updates.

So, I haven’t had the chance to read your posts until tonight. Even though I knew that my W was with the OM I was OK. I opened up a beer with my FIL (who also knew where his daughter was). BTY, after I saw her minivan, I called my MIL and asked her if my W was home.
MIL: “She’s not home yet” (That was at 4.45PM)
Me: “Did she call you?”
MIL: “Yes, she did.”
Me: “Did she tell you she was going to be in a meeting?”
MIL: “No.”
Me: “What did she tell you?”
MIL: “She told me she was going to meet the OM to discuss… I’m not sure I should’ve told you that but that’s it.”
Me: “OK. I’m still on the road. I’ll see you later.”

dewt,
I have to say that I laughed out loud when I read
“Anyway I'm going next door to visit my wife/ex-wife/bestfriend (we're not really sure what the heck we are) and then going to bed.”
I liked this one a lot! Thank you!

Also, your comment “those demands COMPLETELY unreasonable” made me think about this:
The letter I have posted is basically my translation from slang Romanian to proper English. I couldn’t express myself better in English to reflect the true meaning of what she wrote. I am questioning myself, if you had this reaction to the translated letter, what would it be your reaction if you knew Romanian and read the original letter?


Traic,
I didn’t know about that plane’s story but I agree with dewt, it’s freaky.
Also, I totally agree with the stress that reading her emails caused me. I stopped reading those. We’ll see what tomorrow brings me.

LA,
You are the best! Moving the post made a difference.

MIL and FIL are pro M. Totally. I am not sure anymore who said the MIL might not be trustworthy… I have to disagree with that. I “saw” a conversation between my MIL and my W which is basically the MSN Messenger log that my W emailed to herself. Why did she do that?” No clue. Anyways, it was pretty much something like this:
My W: “The OM told me he felt that something bad is going to happen this week… He felt that I was going to tell him that we should end the A.”
MIL: “What did you say?”
My W: “Nothing. But I don’t know how come he could sense it. I can’t go on like this. I can’t hide anymore.”
MIL: “You have two options: Get a divorce, or come back home to your family. Think also about your image in the future. What would people say about you? So what’s it going to be?”
My W: “Now you too care more about other people say and not about what I feel? If I don’t talk to him one day I am walking dead.”
MIL: “So what’s it going to be?”
My W: “I can’t hide anymore.”
MIL: You should listen to me and to your father. We are old people and we know what is right and what is wrong. You have to end the A. At least for a while.” (Why only for a while? I didn’t get that. Maybe she was afraid of getting my W upset by telling her what to do?)

MIL told me a few weeks ago that she would like to see us the way we were in our first year of marriage.

About canceling their visa. I can’t do that. I have no authority.
My parents are totally with me. And if I think about it, everybody is with me.

Thanks again for all the posts.

I am not suggesting you do this just yet but all you have to do is report to Immigration that MIL is seeking employment. That will get her back home.

Now:

MIL: “She told me she was going to meet the OM to discuss… I’m not sure I should’ve told you that but that’s it.”

Am I the only one who sees what is wrong with this picture???? Wake up!

Adrian,

Man, the fog is thick! Thank you for translating the MSN messenger conversation. I would like to give you my own fogese translation, which is my speculation, but I spoke it and heard it, so here goes:

My W: “The OM told me he felt that something bad is going to happen this week… He felt that I was going to tell him that we should end the A.”

W: OM and I connect on a higher plane. He had an eerie feeling that something terrible was going to happen this week...though he knew about his wife's appt with a lawyer...he only feared that I would break up with him. Doesn't that just say I'm more special than anyone? He fears losing me. I am not destroying my marriage; I am saving OM from his fear."

MIL: “What did you say?”

My W: “Nothing. But I don’t know how come he could sense it. I can’t go on like this. I can’t hide anymore.”

I couldn't bring myself to tell him the truth. That I feel slimey, deceitful, guilty and shameful. I like the fantasy we're living in and that would bring in too much reality. That's why I'm going on like this, hiding. I'd rather lie to you and say we're breaking up and have to talk about it than admit I'm still hiding.

MIL: “You have two options: Get a divorce, or come back home to your family. Think also about your image in the future. What would people say about you? So what’s it going to be?”

My W: “Now you too care more about other people say and not about what I feel? If I don’t talk to him one day I am walking dead.”

I don't want to hear that my fantasy is harmful and leaves permanent scars. I don't want to be the woman who left her family, either. I have to figure out a way for this to be Adrian's fault. I hate you pressuring me with irritating reality. I'd rather not decide, thank you.

MIL: “So what’s it going to be?”

My W: “I can’t hide anymore.”

Adrian knows, you know...everyone knows (except work, thank goodness!), so why do I have to do anything? I am a woman of integrity and couldn't be deceitful, so I can't hide anymore. By telling you this, I won't look like I'm still hiding, which I am...from myself.

MIL: You should listen to me and to your father. We are old people and we know what is right and what is wrong. You have to end the A. At least for a while.”

I think your MIL knows that no contact comes first, then restoration of WW's feelings for you, Adrian. She is coaxing her little child to come in out of the cold, but promising she can go back out and play after she warms up.

How'd I do?

I do like how MIL kept asking what WW was going to choose to do. Over and over. Love that. Maybe MIL is a bit manipulative but firmly on Adrian's side?

Adrian...when your MIL said that WW was off to talk to OM, could you see yourself asking MIL how she felt about that? Maybe the way to understand her methods is to be more direct in showing you care how your ILs are feeling and what they are thinking. Mutual concern. ?

Yippee about everyone being with you!

When you're on the side of right, you're in a crowd. When you're on the side of wrong, you're usually in an affair.

I like pretending I'm quoting great people when I'm just making stuff up.

LA

Cliff Notes...

I remember them, but my Mom never let me use them and by College they weren't relevant. I remember being upset about that. They seemed like such a good idea.]


I dunno... er... is that even good for you?

Your wife is obviously very conflicted. This is where you really need to play it cool. Like, really cool.

I have a question... I'm sure you probably posted it, but I either missed it or can't remember... how long have they know each other? How long do you think the affair has been going on?

I think your MIL totally rocks. I'm jealous. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />


We're 'divorced'. I walked out with my son 2 years ago when I gave my wife an ultimatum in an attempt to end her affair with our roommate. I'm not sure how long their affair has officially been 'over', but I'd say at least a year.

Now we live side by side in a small apartment building. I've cut a doorway from my son's bedroom wall through to Dylan's (my wife/ex-wife/bestfriend) living room. In a matter of seconds, and upon any whim, my son can hop two and fro from Mom's to Dad's.

I figure that there is a possibility of a full reconciliation, but there's still a long way to go. Being best friends helps alot.


Well, I'd get upset. I'd read it a bunch of times, getting more upset each time. I'd post about it. Freak out some more. Rant and rave (where she couldn't hear me).

Then I'd compose a reply. It wouldn't be a very nice reply. I'd try to write it as if it seemed nice but mostly I'd really want to get as many subtle but sharp jabs in as I could.

Ok. Just kidding. That's what I used to do. Of the several such letters I've actually written, I've had the good sense not to follow through and send most of them. The ones I did send did nothing to help my ultimate cause - which was reconciliation.

Here's what I'd do now.

Look through it to try and pull out the information I need. Which is what are her most important Emotional Needs.

Not, "What does she say they are?"... But what are they really?

Technically these types of letters aren't considered to be a very reliable source of insight, but I personally would check. I'm a bit compulsive that way. If I did find anything that struck a chord, I'd file it into my 'self improvement folder' and leave it there for later consideration.

Everything else, I'd ignore. I'd write it off as "WS Script" and promptly forget about it.

If a reply was expected, I'd say:

"I'm still thinking about your list. I love you with all my heart and want to make you the happiest woman alive, but it's hard for me to come to any conclusions while you are still having an affair."

I'd say this as matter of factly, but as politely and non-judgementally as possible, and I'd try to give off an aura of quiet stregnth and patient love.

Then I'd come here and brag about how cool I was. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Actually, I wouldn't say it. I'd write it. If I had to say it, I'd probably flub it up. Even writing the above, I edited it about 15 times. I'd write it just like that. Short and sweet. Long letters are useless.

They give the wayward too much of a chance to 'tune out'.

Warmest regards,

J

John's telling you the truth, Adrian. I remember reading his vents.

:::ducking::: YOU have come a long way, Dewt!

I had a thought...does OM's parents know of the affair?

LA

LA, I LOVED your translation!!!

Maybe you could write the 'Cliff Notes' for the Wayward Script. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <---- me, being very very embarrassed.


Thanks. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I could have taken the more direct route, though. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

The truth is that I thought I was going to die. And it took me too long to realize that I was the one responsible for most of that feeling - well, in a way. In lots of ways, anyhoo...

The point is, reacting to wayward script is one of the most destructive things I can think of. Destructive towards your efforts are reconciliation and destructive even moreso to your own mental health.

You need to keep your sites on the ultimate truth, and your ultimate goal and keep your focus long term when the pain gets too much.

WW woke up early this morning and left for work, so we didn't talk at all.
She didn't call or email me. I sent her an email telling her that I took our older daughter to daycare and now she is there safe and sound (we had a heavy snowfall last night so the roads were a mess).
No reply yet.

Anyways, I was thinking last night. There are two options:
1. If she decides to stay home, wouldn’t she be thinking all the time that if she left things would’ve been better for her? She’d have a hard time forgetting about the OM.
2. If she leaves, she’ll take the kids with her too (that’s the way in Canada). So, there will be WW, OM and my DDs living in the same place. Her parents will have to go back home at the end of April. I am asking you how is she going to raise the kids? When would she have the time to take care of them, to work on the website, to spend time with the OM? I believe that things would start to go wrong pretty quickly and then she’d realize what she’s done and made her think about coming back home.

Which option would be best? Or, is there another option?

I think that OM has a sense of something bad happening because HE is having second thoughts. I also think MIL is on your side. She is trying to ease your wife into doing the right thing.

I suggest that you be less available to babysit while the infidels are meeting. You are almost enabling the affair. Can you find something that you need to do in the evening? Away from home?

Thanks, John, for the confirmation on my translation. Also, no back-kicks for your non-direct route. You can only get to here from there, right? All paths are good and needed. Otherwise, I'm sunk because I kicked and screamed against anything resembling a direct route.

And I remember you talking the best game and doing the opposite. Me, too. That's why I read you. And yeah, got to realizing how much I created in my life with my sites set on the wishful, way I wanted it to be exactly, and the ultimate. Great distinction.

Adrian,

Only two options? I don't know what you mean.

One, she stays with family, like she's doing, and still sees OM.

Two, she chooses family and goes no contact, for awhile, then "just friends" begins again.

Three, she goes no contact and within two months, doesn't feel anything for OM but a bit of contempt and embarrassment.

Four, she stays and asks you to move out and moves OM in.

Five, she leaves with children and moves in with OM some place else.

Six, she leaves the children with you and gets her own place, alone, still seeing OM.

Seven...well, you get the idea. Lots of things can happen. Most important is you choosing your action (not reaction).

Yes, there are upsides to her having real life consequences by going to OM out in the open. The fantasy juice runs out. Same problems, different person. Worse problems because guilt and shame are layered over every emotion like old dust.

I want to hear your choices, how many are available to you and what you're leaning towards.

What did you think of dewt's suggestion about really examining her emotional needs through the emails and conversations?

How about yours? Top Ten lists are fun.

Here's to a new day after the other one...

LA

I cannot accept that.


I cannot accept that.

Where do I fit in here?

I cannot accept that.

I don’t really like this idea but it’s a very realistic one.

I don’t believe she would leave the children with me.

She totally forgets about the OM (forever), and falls in love with me ten times more than she ever was.

I don’t know anymore about her emotional needs. She’s so distant and her emails I read are all ILY’s and poems.

Here it is:
1. Affection.
2. Honesty and openness.
3. Sexual fulfillment.
4. Physical attractiveness.
5. Recreational Companionship.
6. Admiration.
7. Conversation.
8. Family commitment.
9. Trustworthiness.
10. Family support.


The OMW called me earlier and said that the OM came home last night very upset. He was in a bad mood and talked to her somehow disrespectfully.
I have no idea what my W and the OM they have discussed last night but it appears to me that she might have told him that they should end the A.
Still waiting for a sign from my W.

Send the OM's wife here.

Stop obsessing on what your wife may or may not do, and get a plan of what you are going to do.

So the options were for you? I saw you looking at her and her plans, not yours.

When you say you won't accept that...what does that mean?

I didn't see an answer to OM's parents knowing about his affair?

I'm still asking you to consider further exposure to end the A. That is within your plan and goal. To end the A, no contact, rebuild marriage and personal recovery.

Thank you for posting your EN list. I'm interested that you place family commitment at #10 because you seemed very aggravated that your WW was shutting off time with your daughters. I took that to mean that FC was higher on your needs list. Could just be now. As you said, her ENs right now are difficult to know. What were they before the A?

LA

The OM’s parents leave abroad. I don’t know if they know about the A. I have no clue how to contact them either.

When I say I wont accept that I mean that it’s out of question. If she chooses any of those options I would probably file for legal separation.

About the top 10 EN. It’s hard to find the proper order. For me, all of those EN have the same level of importance.

You are absolutely right. That’s my plan. I just used different words but the meaning is the same.


1. affection.
2. conversation.
3. recreational companionship.
4. family support.
5. family commitment.
I guess these were her EN before the A. Obviously there’s more EN that I was not aware of. That's why the A happened, right?

I guess you’re talking about her work. How would you do it?

I spoke with BIL’s W and she said that she spoke with a common friend who knows about the A. My W called him and asked him to help her find a job in the company he works for. “Don’t worry, I’m not gonna try hit on you!” she said. He asked her “Are you telling me that it was you who was after the OM not him after you?” She said “I feel no remorse for what I’ve done.” Anyways, I don’t know how true this is considering that it's a story told by someone who heard it form someone, etc.

I still haven’t been contacted by my W. And as I was suggested, I haven’t checked her emails.

Adrian...

You know how to get OM's parents informed...through his wife. I'm trying to widen that nimble mind of yours.

Thanks for sharing your boundaries--what is acceptable and what isn't. For what it is worth, taking actions from your standards is more difficult than it sounds. For instance, you are "accepting" (handling, dealing with) her option #1 right now. I'm only clarifying because you can accept temporarily something you would not abide long term. Widening out the black and white to encompass a lot of options, ways it can go, what you are prepared to do to enforce your boundaries, etc.

Lots of introspection for you. How are you doing today?

"That's why the A happened, right?" Adrian...your wife made the affair happen--her choice. Her unmet needs pre-A may have generated pain, anger, frustration, miscommunication and despair; most likely, entitlement.

I want you to be clear on that. She could have chosen MC, IC or an intermediary to talk with you; she could have seperated from you, divorced...but she chose NOT to...she chose to have an affair.

LA

Thanks LA for your post


This morning I was in a good mood. I actually laughed when I was thinking about last night scenario. My W was sneaking into her own house! I found that funny. And disrespectful towards our older daughter and me. We were treated like we were just some piece of furniture.
This afternoon I am a worse than this morning and I guess it’s because I don’t know what my reaction would be If I would be told that legal separation would be the next step.

On the other hand, reading your post made me realize once again that if I didn’t meet people like you on MB I would’ve lost it a million times already. I would’ve probably been separated by now.

Everything you said in your last post is true. And I agree with every single word you wrote. But for whatever reason I said only stupid things like I didn’t meet her EN and that’s how the A started, or I didn’t know how to find the OM’s parents, and so on…

I don’t know what’s happening to me but sometimes I am amazed by what stupid things I am capable of saying.

Another funny thing (or maybe it isn’t) is that last night I slept in the same bed with my W but we haven’t talked to each other in about 30 hours!

If she won’t talk to me, should I talk to her? I really need an answer on this one.

You didn’t tell me how you would expose the A to my W’s employer. I am thinking of sending her boss an email urging her to do something. But I don’t know what should I ask her to do. I could also tell her that I believe that my W is using her work email to keep the A going on. What do you think?

If she won’t talk to me, should I talk to her?

This is a fine line. The short answer is yes. But keep your conversation very limited or, at least, within certain boundaries. My rules (for where you are right now):

1) Don't try to start a conversation just for the sake of talking. If you have something to say - say it. If you have nothing to say -say it (i.e. nothing).

2) Never ask her how she is feeling or how she is doing. Keep your conversation minimal and about necessary things - like what you will have for dinner. "Good Morning" is okay. "Good Morning, how are you?" is not okay.

3) Don't NOT talk as a way to "get back". In other words, no passive-aggressive behavior. If she ignores you, ignore that she is ignoring you. On the flip side of this, don't always be the one initiate communication - don't appear over eager (the bouncing dog).

4) Don't ever ask where she is going or what she will be doing. You have no interest in any of those things.

5) Don't ever ask her to tell you what she means if she says something you didn't quite capture.

I am sure others will have more ideas but just remember to be polite to your WW. Don't get into a non-verbal fight because then it becomes a battle of wills to see who will break first. Don't talk about future. Keep the conversation basic and discuss functional things only.

It is all in your mental attitude. If you are angry at WW, it will be obvious to her even if you say nothing. Work at keeping your attitude upbeat when around her. The bad part of that is that being upbeat makes you want to talk more which is not what you should do. You get better with practice and WW will be more open once she understands that there have been groundrules set.

She does not hate you. She doesn't want to talk to you because she has no idea that she can safely do so. Show her (don't tell her) that you are consistent and that will help her. How do you do that? Be consistent.

I'll let Trac and Dewt answer you on talking to your wife. One of her ENs you said was conversation. I'm always for talking, and that might be the wrong thing. Mostly, Plan A was listening for me. Course, if you two aren't talking, that would make it really difficult to practice listening.

I don't believe in exposing by email. I believe in a carefully crafted letter, and if they have this in Canada...sending it certified mail with return delivery requested. Makes it formal and signed for. This would not be something to rush off and do, but with extreme care. Posting, refining and keeping it short and direct.

Others here have done it, so if you choose to do this, then post on its own thread for review and comments. Ask for MelodyLane in the title. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

"I said only stupid things" Hey! Heyheyhey...no DJs...not to others or to yourself. You say what you say. You're doing the best you can and you're not saying stupid things. If you feel like there was something you did that caused the A, then say that. The next moment, you might not. Not stupid. You feel and fear what you feel and fear. I respect that. I see my job as not letting you get by with not examining and owning what you believe.

If you were dying of dehydration, feeling the want of water consume your being, you might be panting and gasping ten feet from water but can't see it. God didn't make Adam and be done with it because he realized we needed each other, all of us, for each other. I can see the water from where I'm standing, but you can't right now, because you're on your knees, wishing for water. You would do the same, I believe. And have. No disrespect, just location, location, location.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

"I don’t know what’s happening to me but sometimes I am amazed by what stupid things I am capable of saying."

Please accept that you have really high standards you hold yourself to, maybe even strangle yourself on, and you need to look at those and get them to be reasonable. You're human. You're in a foreign situation which feels dangerous and frightening, not to mention painful as heck. You are going to have an automatic response to fight or flee...anything to make the pain stop. You're not a primitive human. But going against those automatic responses are difficult enough, let alone seeing what your course of action might be.

As far as content of the letter to employer...ask others. My brain just shut off. Ack. Yes, your concern is to save your marriage and you are making people who are important to WW aware.

Glad you can see the humor in her sneaking into her own house. And that she isn't really present when she's present. I used a lot of simple one liners for the down, not talking time. "I know we can get through this."

"I was just remembering about the time you saw our first home and how excited you were." Stuff with good memories and hope.

Little blurts I call them. Still do some. No expectation of an answer or reaction. Just information.

LA

traic,

I will do my best to do that. The only problem is that if I don't see my W, than I won't have the chance to show her.

LA,

Thank you for taking this job.

When do I get a raise?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Heehee...

As for Trac's advice. You show her by actions you choose. You didn't go upstairs and confront her last night. You didn't get in her face this morning. That's consistent. She knows you and your normal reactions. Whatever they were, be different. Not taking action when expected speaks as loudly as taking actions when not expected.

LA

Adrian, I think the advice you are getting is just awesome. LovingAnyway (the best MB nickname (ever)) and, Traicionado (I have no idea what that means), you guys are really making me glad I came back to MB. And Believer is sooooo right.... if OMW was here, that affair would be toast. Omigod... I don't know if I've ever actually seen that before...

Play it cool with your wife. The tips you've gotten so far are better than I could come up with. My advice to you is to keep working on your mindset. You are going to need extraordinary amounts of compassion, patience, and even under the best of circumstances (as far as affairs go) it's a huge challenge.

You are at the stage of the affair where your actions and tones are very important. Read up on Plan A, and like I said, become an expert.

The balance of setting boundries while remaining nonjudgemental was a pretty fuzzy line for me. I felt very strongly about some things and probably could've handled things quite a bit better.

The number one thing for me and what I stand by as far as giving advice is that you should, under NO circumstances, move out of the house. But how do you respectfully tell someone that if they choose to leave the family unit to pursue an affair and cause so much destruction, then they can be the one to leave. How do you say that with authority, but not anger?

How would you say it Adrian?

And I can't tell you enough how important it is to be prepared legally if you are a Father in this country. I could tell you stories that would chill you to the bone. Most lawyers offer a free initial consultation. Get informed of your rights. Like, can you report a kidnapping if she tries to take them? I'm not suggesting you take her children from her. No. But I am urging you to be prepared to protect yourself and your children and make darn sure that the choice she is making is whether to leave the family or stay and fix the family. Kicking you out of the family should NOT be a choice.

About her Emotional Needs...

They change. I'm sure you could think of a time when your list was in a different order. I can sure think of time when mine was.

Right now, consider her ULTIMATE Emotional Need from YOU is for you to be a rock... or even better, a lighthouse. A lighthouse is a beacon of safety, of stability. It doesn't try to drive the boat. It doesn't give orders to the crew. It stands there patiently weathering the storm, so that the ship can come home safely.

Be the man inside the lighthouse. Tend to the building. Keep the light steady and freshly charged. Don't worry about the boat for now. Remember the pilots forgetting the plane wasn't on autopilot? Well, lighthouses don't even have autopilot.

Anyway, hope you are doing well. I some grade three math to do for my son now, but I'll check in later. (and fix all my formatting errors)

J

Thanks guys for your posts.

I came home at 6.15PM. She wasn't there. I left with my FIL to the grocery store. We came back around 7.30PM. She was home. Just when I was about to take off my shoes my W shows up smiling and says "Can you please go and fill up my gas tank?" I stared at her for a second and said. "Yeah, OK"
I came back, she was laughing and having a good time.
I know I'm dealing with an alien but how the h*ll can she act like nothing happened? We haven't really seen each other in 40 hours and haven't spoken in about the same number of hours and she' all one big smile. Arrrgh!!!

She had an appointment with the family doctor. Should I ask her what the doctor said?
Should I remind her that I took our older daughter to see the dentist today?

I fell like I am going to loose it tonight. I'm going to have a beer, maybe it will calm me down.

Ask her,

What happened to volunteering your thoughts and feelings in simple statements.

"You want me to fill up your gas tank?"

"Yeah." Smile.

"I feel shocked. Those are the first words you've said to me in 40 hours. I'm confused. I fill up your gas tank as an act of love."

Who knows what she would say. Then you can go.

Have to point out, though, she did a small consideration by catching you before you took your shoes off. Tiny, I know. Still.

Why did she go to the doctor?

Volunteer your information on the dentist.

You aren't losing your self-respect tonight. You were just caught off guard.

LA

Don't ask nuthin' unless it's to show simple caring. Nothing heavy. Let her know how things went at the dentist. No big deal. Sit, have a beer, chill out.

She's being pleasant? You be pleasant. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

She gets cranky? You be pleasant. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

J

Why, dewt! I do believe pleasant is on the menu!

Yeah, I do bad puns. What of it?

:::ducking:::

Oh, that was fowl.

Adrian? Following dewt's advice will be a feather in your cap.

'nuff

LA

She's upstairs with the older daughter. It's bed time and tonight she chose her mommy to stay with her until she falls asleep.

I am pleasant but I can't take this anymore. Tomorrow we won't talk again and so on. She'll never say anything about what she wants. How long should I be doing this? I said end of April but it's just killing me.

I don't know how to ask her move out. And more than that, I am not sure anymore I have feelings for her...

You don't know what tomorrow will bring, Adrian. You jumped there and said it will be no talking. She caught you off guard tonight. She might tomorrow in a whole different way.

You don't know.

You don't believe she'll say what she wants. There's no "never" in that. That's you. Right now, you have this evening. You can express your feelings to MIL and FIL.

To us.

We know you're hurting. You want the pain to stop yesterday. Especially since you are charting your progress with both hands...better level today, worse, better, worse...do you have the expectation that better means more better? That worse portends worse?

LA

This is excellent. The more time she can spend with her daughter, the better. Especially special time like this... reconnecting with the elements of 'home' and/or the family is very good. Very good.


Oh yes, you can. You have no idea how strong you can be. Oh my God, I could go on and on and on about this topic. Please just take my word for it for now.


Dude, believe it or not, there comes a point where you kinda overcome it. You have a well inside that you haven't even tapped into yet. How long is hard to answer. Harly recommends Plan A for 6 months. I personally am just past the 2 year mark. There are a couple here that make me look like a newbie. Most wayards straighten out way before that. It really depends on the person, and it depends a lot on how good your Plan A is.


Don't ask her to move out. I would not recommend Plan B to you yet. Not by a longshot. If she chooses to move out before that, it's her choice.


And I warned you about this. It's common. It's to be expected. After all, look at everything you are going through. What person, in their right mind, wants to be married to a wayward spouse?

You have to remember this person... who looks like your wife, has the same voice... she's really not your wife. She's an imposter planted here by the aliens.

You be the lighthouse. Help guide your real wife home by being stable, loving and strong.

That way, when the fog clears, and she comes back to her senses, she will look back and remember how you acted... how strong you were. And she will get the best lesson a person can get about what real Love is. And when she's in a state where she's capable of appreciating it, you better believe she will!

Get what I'm saying?

I'm telling you this because when I had a chance to do a Plan A while we were still together, I blew it. I succumbed to pain that I thought was unbearable. I gave her an ultimatum and pushed her off the wrong side of the fence. I blew it a few times, each time because I thought I couldn't take it anymore.

Each time I was wrong. I could take it. I had to take it. My family... my children... my wife... they were all depending on me to not only 'take it' but to actually learn how to thrive while taking it.

It ain't fair. It ain't easy.

But it's possible.

And it's worth it.

Glad you owned up to that essential part, dewt, for Adrian's sake.

You fought your own feeling of self-respect very hard back then. Then you found what you were feeling wasn't true self respect, huh? You've got loads now! I'm so happy for you.

Plan A pays dividends, Adrian.

LA

LOL... I'm Mr. "own up to and take responsibility for"... the problem's always been that I kept doing things I then had to own up to. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />


Truth is I've always had self respect issues. From as far back as I can remember. I still wouldn't say that overall I have 'respect' for myself. Not really.

I've been well enough trained not to express it publicly, but the issues are still there.

On the bright side of things, for the first time in my life I see a possiblity of me earning that respect from myself.

Long road, but at least it's started.

Actually, it's all a trick to win my Wife back. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Become this super guy... all handsome and rich... with a cottage... investments... some travelling... a boat... er.. well the boat's really for me. (but we'll just keep that quiet)


Plan A pays dividends. It's like a mortgage, the sooner you get it dealth with, the lower the overall cost. The longer you take to get up to speed, the higher the overall cost. I'm a real good example of that.

The way I see it, you are doing pretty good.

All you gotta do is stay the course.

You can share your self respect issues with me. I've got/had them, too. I see you earning every ounce of self esteem with each action you take...including being here for Adrian.

I got another one for ya. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Whereareanswers. Please? Pretty please? He reminds me of you.

::ducking again:::

Okay, not really, but a little. Winning your wife back is just being you, you know. The accoutrements that you listed are icing on your own cake.

Self-sabotage, knowing but not doing, is human. You're getting past that. You have come so very far in a relatively short time...two years versus your whole life...be respectful of yourself and own that, too.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA

ardianc,

You have gotten some pretty good tips while I was asleep. About the rules of conversation, I forgot one last night. Don't ever use the "why" in a question to your WW at any time ever under any circumstances. Not even if it is "why did you put sugar in your coffee?". Just remove that word (or its Romanian equivalent) from your vocabulary.

Now, why I really wanted to post. You asked a couple of questions a few posts back and it got me thinking of language. Do you remember the process you went through when you first learned English (or any other additional language)? If you did that later in life, this will be easier. When I learned my first second langauge (French), I went through several distinct stages. I remember one stage was where I would hear what was said and translate it mentally into my native langauge. Then I thought about what I wanted to say, translated that to French and then said it. It was understandable but not really French as a native would speak it. Just sounded "funny". Later I stopped the translation process and started "thinking" in French and would start to say what I wanted to say and maybe get halfway through the sentence and realize I couldn't finish. I got lost. So I started saying the sentence mentally in French to make sure I could get all the way through it, correct mistakes or adjust the wording as necessary and, once complete, speak it.

This is more or less what you should be doing. Like learning a second language, it is difficult at first but gets easier with practice. Okay, what is my point?

Your WW went to the doctor. Don't ask her about it because you are asking "how she is". Violates the boundaries.

You took DD to the dentist. Yes you should say this but how you say it is extremely important. You should not say: "I took DD to the dentist today. She has three cavities and I have to take her back in a week, etc." What you do say is: "the dentist said DD is in good shape. she has to go back in three weeks." (Maybe she does not have to go back. This is just an example.

My point is that WW has a right to now about DD's health and should be told. It helps her connect. She does not need to know that you took her. That is like saying: "me being the responsibility parent that I am took our DD to the dentist to take care of her health while you were off doing whatever it was you were doing and, oh, were apparently so busy that you didn't even bother to ask how it went."

That may be over the top but I am trying to make a point. Think through mentally what you want to say to WW before you actually say it. Will it include anything that could be interpreted as a DJ? Can it be construed as impatient, angry, frustrated? Does it violate the boundaries you have established? If so, reword it. All you want to do is give WW the facts.

Good job on getting the gas without complaining. So she was laughing when you came back. Remember what I said way way back, she is happy for the most part. She is in love. From her POV, not much has really happened. We BS's want our WS's to hurt as much as us over the A. We feel that is justice. It is not going to happen. Our pain is ours alone. It is the lonliest part of being a BS.

dewt, you said: "I gave her an ultimatum and pushed her off the wrong side of the fence. "

I need to make an update on my story. I will try to do that tonight. Can I ask you the favor to have a look? I would really appreciate it.

"traicionado" is simply Spanish for "betrayed".

??? You didn't have to duck, that one went right over my head too...


It may or may not be a coincidence, but I believe that in doing the things I need to do to earn my own respect I will also earn hers. In doing the things I need to do, I will also be filling her top ENs. Plus I'm handsome, charming and have tattoos. And I can fix things. How can I fail? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />


Yeah... well it's a pretty nice cake.

And I get to eat it too.

Which is the whole point. Who ever heard of having a cake and not eating it. That's stupid. And having cake when it's not yours... that's stealing.


Yeah, but I'm a pothead with ADD. Knowing but not doing... I have taken that to unheard of levels.


I'm learning the skills that will help me get past that. There are lots of parts of me that I'm will never get 'past'... but there are tactics that will help me get 'around'... which I guess amounts to the same thing... so... er... heheh.


Oh yeah, I do. I'm not black and white about me. There's all kinds of shades of grey. In many many ways, I'm great. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Heck, In some ways I exeed even my own very high standards. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Ok... I'm going to go now, before I make a complete a$$ out of myself. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

John

Too late on the last line.

Not really.

whereareanswers is a poster who just moved to General Questions II but has his link in his signature line.

That's what went over your head. Asking for your additional help out the side of my mouth.

I mutter.

And yes, I'm laughing out loud at your laughing.

LA

I will explain to you one of the "mentel tricks" I have successfully used. This one has paid off in spades on many occasions. It has one potential downside. That downside is that it helps you create a distance between your emotions and your WW. Overall that is a good thing right now but, for those times when doubt enters your mind, it creates its own problem. I have another "fallback" trick for those times. I don't want to get into any of that right now. I just want to place this into the specific context of communication.

The idea is this: you and your WW are dating. You are on about your 5th date, more or less. Sounds weird but bear with me. Would you ask this woman what her doctor told her? No. It is a bit too personal right now since you don't know each other that well. Okay this is specific to the doctor but, in general, I think that is where you should keep conversation with your WW - not as if she really is your wife. If you can look at it on these terms, it will be a big benefit for knowing where you need to draw the line in each interchange.

I have developed a few mental tricks that have helped me through the rough spots. You should try to find what works for you.

I have had to create an emotional buffer space between me and WW - just to preserve my sanity. Unfortunately there are times when I question whether I really care any more about R. Then I try to remember my DD's. My "happy thought".

I spoke with my MIL. She said that my W told her that she didn't want to talk to anybody about what she spoe with the OM. She only said that there is no A anymore and she takes time for long walks all by herself. My MIL asked her "Why don't you tell Adrian about this?" She didn't answer.

I didn't have to chance to tell my W about the dentist appointment. I was asleep when she came in the bedroom from our older daughter's bedroom.

traicionado,
My DDs = my happy thought too.

I'm going to be leaving to Toronto today from work. I'll be there till Monday morning. I'll try to get to a PC... but there are no guarantees... if you wanna maybe get together, Adrian, drop me and email at [email]dewt2003@hotmail.com...[/email] I'll try to check in...

ciao, all...

John

I am going crazy...

Adrian,

Hang in there...the pain you are feeling...many of us have been there...

...if you can just hang in there...it will pass...

...during these 'moments' give it your best shot at doing 'something' for you...or doing 'something' you enjoy...write what you feel down...ANYTHING...to get passed these 'moments'...

...I am sorry you have go 'through' this...but...it will pass...and whether you can believe this or not now... please trust me...as many here will tell you...you will come out of this a stronger person...

...but for now...it hurst like ******... and this is one time that you can appreciate the fact that feelings 'come and go'

...I am glad to see you here...personally...I don't know how I would have survived without the support and advice from the Board....you will S U R V I V E this.....hang in there....

Adrian,

Don't go crazy, come here instead.

What are your plans tonight? How was your day? Are still not checking email? Look at Lunamare's post...she knows Plan B...you can read others' posts in Plan A and see how they are doing, too.

You're not in this alone. Your known world is upside down right now, so yes, you'll feel a tad crazy, but you're not. Not even close.

We're with ya,

LA

Adrianc,

Nah, don't go crazy. Pepperband once asked someone on another thread in a galaxy far far away: <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> "What would you do if you were not afraid?"

I think you need to consider this very very carefully. You are REACTING to this situation. You need to start taking ACTION. This action can and should be meeting her needs as best you can while in plan A. It should include setting your boundaries with respect to her behavior. If you expect her to be civil to you, the children, and her parents while they are there, tell her. Make it clear you don't expect to be married to a woman and not hear a word from her for 40 hours.

What would you do if you were not afraid? That is the question you need to answer for yourself, and then use MB to do what you KNOW needs to be done. If she decides to leave she will leave. There is little you can do about that. What you can do, is decide how YOU will behave and interact with her and what your boundaries are.

You are acting out of fear and that is NOT good. She will never respect you if you keep this up, even as you do amazing things, which you have done. LEAD the parade AdrianC, don't follow it. Walking after the elephants and other animals usually means you step in it.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

LA,

I have read her emails today. It looks like my W is trying to break up with the OM, but he is not giving up. There were also ILYs in the chain of emails.
I got back home today and acted as usual showing respect to everybody and also played with the kids. My W was friendly... It's funny how I've changed my opinion about being friendly. Before, if she had acted like tonight I would’ve said that she was grumpy. But after no talk for 40 hours it seemed to me fantastic. I politely answered to all her questions.

Other than that, I went out with my FIL to buy some stuff for the DDs.

My W asked me what time the medical center in our area would open tomorrow. I checked the internet but no luck so she said she would go there tomorrow 7.30Am. I said OK but didn't ask her if she wanted me to go with her. Also she said that she has book two more appointments with the gynecologist and some other doctor. Again, I didn’t ask her for details.

That's pretty much it for tonight.

Stay strong - don't ask. It sounds like she wants you to know or be interested. I think she will keep this up so keep just giving back the bare minimum. If it is something you need to know, she will make no secret about it. Right now it is just a technique to manipulate you. Ignore it.

Can you read those email objectively? If they are affecting you emotionally, avoid them. I have said before, your attitude and manner are your biggest obstacles right now. I think others are trying to say the same. You still focus on the mechanics of this process - it is all about attitude.

Yes I can.
I would be me. I wouldn't be influenced by anybody.

I can't agree more...

fear-based reactions almost always overshadow the amazing things the bs does...

and as a ws, you almost have to re-train your brain to see and acknowedge the good and amazing things the bs does....as a ws, you've only been allowing yourself to see the negative...

it is not an over night process...that's why plan a...a really good, properly applied plan a can work....you keep it up, she keeps seeing it...

but the loss of respect JL speaks of....yeah...work on that...I can't begin to get into the damage it caused Dewt and I...

once we were driving somewhere..I think he pulled the car over..and yelled out "I get it"...."what?".."you lost respect for me..."...we then had to re-join traffic, and the moment was lost....but anyway...maybe dewt remembers and can put it into context as it was his 'aha' moment....


watching Dewt gain back both his self-respect and mine is an interesting journey....


to watch someone you love lose that, and watch as it takes him down a treacherous path...and to find yourself disappointed again and again...well...it can only give you further justification if an affair is involved.....as a bs, it just leaves you feeling destroyed......

our mistakes (because we both made them...it would be unfair to Dewt to only acknowledge his) were large and ricocheted....MUCH damage...MUCH broken faith and trust....MUCH shaken foundation.....

some of it played out on these very boards....publicly displayed raw emotion is rarely a good thing, and I can say without a doubt, I sank to many new lows....disrespectful judgemnts flew everywhere...lovebusters...ha!!!...I was nasty and mean....

out of fear, I was REACTING only...spewing here in public....not my finest hour....


2 years later here we are....to quote Dewt.."it is what it is"....


"ex/wife/bestfriend".....LOL....yup...

we each have alot to do to get our own self-respect back..and hopefully, with that comes respect for each other....that entails alot and involves a long list...mine does not have a boat...hmmmm....lol.....some things that are basics for 'normal adults' need to be addressed and acomplished, by both of us, for instance, before any roads inward towards reconciliation can even be broached...

but as we do the work and as the 'backslides' become less and less, and as we both watch each other, a growing sense of 'security' with this person can begin to grow again...


gotta go...


adrian, as a friend always says to me...

Peace over CHAOS...








all of this is hard work....there are no guarantees....

but you have to calm down and remember to BREATHE....





her loss of respect can do alot of damage, is all I'm saying...


go somewhere quiet....

BREATHE..........

soulloss,

Thank you for your post. I read it twice and still trying to find a way how my W would respect me again. You're saying that she sees only the negative things that I do as a BS.
If I take, for example, today. I would give me an A+ for my behavior today. My In-laws were away most of the day. So, it was only me, my W and our DDs. We spent some time to the mall watching our DDs play. We didn't talk much but whenever we discussed we did it in a civilized manner. I have answered every time nice and calm, no DJ, no sarcasm in my voice, nothing. And yet she was the whole day in a very bad mood. She yelled at the kids and after my in-laws came back home she took off claiming that she couldn't take this anymore?! Her own daughters are bothering her because they cry and they don't know what they want!!! Can you believe that?
I mean, I haven’t done bad things today. So, if her mind is set to see only the negative... than what did she see today? There wasn't any negative...

As for self respect I guess I've regained it. I am not giving her the chance to see me hurt. And I believe that she can't further hurt me anymore. I am sticking to Plan A, and if it works, fine. If not, I'll ask her to separate.

...and I breathe...

I am no expert but what I think you are doing is creating an internal conflict for her because you are not reinforcing the justification for affair. Up til now, you have been legitamizing the affair in her mind. Now you have stopped. She has to recreate her mindset - rewrite yet more history. She may also be having problems with OM. You can't know that and don't care. You did good today.

It also sounds like you are making even more progress in your own recovery. That is great and extremely important.

When you say "can you believe that?", I have to say that I couldn't if I hadn't seen it for my own eyes with my WW. Your WW is deeply conflicted without realizing it.

Only one caution: be careful when you say she can't hurt you any more. I think she will definitely try if she goes into serious withdrawal and, trust me, she is still quite capable. Don't let your guard down. They can be SO creative. You may be reaching what someone called the "numbness of indifference". Don't worry - it is a positive sign that you are moving forward. It doesn't last and often gives in to bursts of anger so be watchful. The numbness won't last so be patient. We are operating under the assumption that you still love WW. If you love her, make no mistake - she can hurt you. You have to be strong enough to continue with Plan A and be man enough to be willing to potentially suffer that pain knowing that you are doing it for the greater good. There is no way she can hurt you more deeply than she already has. What you experienced on Dday is as bad as it gets. Everything else will pale by comparison.

It sounds like you did a lot of really good things today. You and family together. Trying to get WW to reconnect. Simple communication. Excellent. It is not a simple quick fix. Be prepared to keep this up for an extended time even when you don't think you want to.

adrianc

I would encourage you to seek counselling from the Harleys if you can swing it finacially. Just look into the counselling area on the web site.

I feel your ww is at an important time and you need a professional plan of action.
Remember Plan A & B have only one target in mind ,, to end the affair. Sometimes at critical moments that is when you need professsional advice based on long & varied experience, so not knowing what there is available in Canada consider the phone counselling from the Harleys.

A few hundred now could be money well spent

My W just asked me to go with her to the coffee shop at the corner of the street to discuss...

If she tells me that the A is over and she's expecting me to trust her from now on, then what do I do? I can't just trust her like nothing happened...

I need an opinion, PLEASE!

adrian....you've stopped BREATHING...


be calm, keep pleasant and take your emotions and stuff them in a pocket for now....make eye contact and hear what she is saying...


no matter what she wants to talk about...you have a safety net....

you can always say..."wow...we've got some things to talk about...let me think about all this and we'll talk again"

no decisions right away...

When in doubt, it's always best to stick with the truth.

If she says: "The affair is over now I expect you to trust me."

Then you say: "I am not able to trust you given what's happened. I'm going to need a lot more from you in order to rebuild trust than just hearing you say the words that the affair is over. Specifically, what I'd like to see is complete transparency, complete accountability, and a plan for us to work together to rebuild our marriage into a place where we can both be happy and satisfied. Are you ready to begin?"

Mys

Oh, one more thing. Expect her to say "No, she's not ready."

Then, you can say something like: "I understand how you feel. Until those things happen, I'm just not going to be ready to trust you, so you might want to be careful about what you expect from me on that front."

DON'T say anything like: "I'll be here waiting when you are ready" or "You'd better be ready soon because this train's going to leave the station."

Just give her the information about what you need WITHOUT attaching a time limit on her readiness (giving her that kind of information shifts the balance of power too much in her favor.)

Good luck!

Mys

Adrian....


what happened ...

how was the coffee?

Hello everybody!

I am so grateful for everyone's help on this board.
But now I need your HELP even more.

As I said earlier we were going to go to the coffee shop. My W said "Why don't we go to the shopping mall downtown?". I said "OK. Lets' go." It took us half an hour to get there. From 11.30 till 1.30 we did some shopping but no talking about the problem. Then we went to the food court and grabbed something to eat. My W opened up the discussion
"Tell me what are we going to do in the future with our lives?"
Me: "You tell me. You know what I want."
My W: "I can't live like this anymore."
Me: "Then let's work on our marriage."
My W: "I've ended the A. I told the OM that starting tomorrow I won't talk to him anymore. I regret for doing this but you were the one who forced me to end it."
Me: 'You did the right thing."
My W: "I don't feel guilty for what I did (she was talking about the A) and I am not sure whether or not I want to recover our marriage."

I was somehow surprised to hear what she told me but then I rememeber that she's still in the fog.

Anyways she was very pesimistic as far as our relation could ever work.
Me: "I am very confident it will work."
My W: "You shouldn't be confident. I told you I was going to TRY give our marriage a chance. I never said I WOULD give it a chance."

I can't post everything we discussed because there wa a lot and I simply can't remember everything. Here are a few more things:
My W: "You'll never going to go over the fact that I've been with another man. And on top of that everybody thinks I am a sl*t.
Me: "I never said that about you. If you remember I told you I saw you only as my W. The W that I wanted to go into marital recovery with. If I thought that you were what you said I would't want to be with you anymore. That's why I am here now."

Me: "What's going to happen with the web site you're working on?"
My W: "I am goiung to work on that all by myself."
Me: "What about the OM?"
My W: "He won't work on the web site anymore."


We spoke for almost two hours. She became agitated and told me she got a headache.

We got home... My W went straight downstairs and started working on the website...
My in-laws left with my BIL. Just before my MIL stepped out said to me: "You guys take care of the girls"
Me: "I guess that applies to em only since my W works on her stuff while I am looking after the kids."
My MIL; 'You want me to go talk to her?"
Me: "No."
She did it anyways. So my W came upstairs and talked to me in a sarcastic way. She told me she got upset beacuse I complained about the fact that she was working on her web site while I was taking care of the kids. All that she said to me at the mall was for herself only and, as usual, I didn't pay attention to her. Her carrier was very important but it looks like she would get one in mopping the floor because I am not helping her at all.

It was a disaster. WHAT DO I DO NOW?

I don't think that was a disaster at all. I think she is seriously wanting to try to recover the marriage.

Go back and read your own thread. She is going to try to provoke you. She will do that for several reasons.

1) Keep your calm.
2) You don't always have to have the last word.
3) Don't try to counter everything she says.
4) None of what she says is "real".

Give her some space right now. Sounds like you did really well. I got the same speech from WW that she didn't think I could get over the A. So WW has several problems here:

1) She is still in love with OM.
2) She has not really started NC with OM.
3) She has doubts about you and your ability.
4) She is concerned about her reputation.

Okay all those things were her creation - don't EVER let her off the hook. Don't continually remind her either. Specifically her doubts about your ability to get over the A. She needs time. She needs your steadfast Plan A+ and she needs to see you solid as a rock. Her lighthouse in the storm. You need to be very careful with yourself right now so your personal growth will be the catalyst for her recovery. Let's just say that maybe WW has committed to at least try. She is afraid you may say now that you want to but you might change your mind later. Instead of expressing that fear to you directly, she lays out a challenge to see how you will respond. So go respond - with solid actions. Nothing you say will convince her you mean business. Everything you do, however, will.

In other words, you now have a lot of work in front of you but you did volunteer for it. Don't expect any help at all from WW for quite some time on the R. Don't try to force that on her either. Right now just work on creating stability in your home, set some very clear ground rules. No matter how many times WW tells you it won't work, you gently remind her that you have faith that it will.

You just started the next exciting chapter in an epic volume. You are doing great.

Disaster?!?!?!

where??!?!

I see no disaster...

I see ALOT of the usual 'babble' that comes out of the ws...

I see ALOT of pain...from BOTH of you...

but...no disaster!!

YAY!!
today, she told you she ended her affair...

YAY!!....

now she's sulking...you 'forced' her to 'give up' her exciting new toy and the childish, selfish part of her, like that child, is going to sulk and be unhappy....

now is when you re-read everything about plan a...

and if you have the interest and the time (and since HE won't be doing it), what if youoffered to help her with the website....make it part of your recreational time together....


Oh, Adrian, there was no disaster...I am actually grinning for you right now...and if I'm not mistaken, both believer and trac have slight smiles too...

step one on a journey has been taken....

YAY!!!

as part of your 'marital work', would she come here?....would you want her to?...

Adrian, as a bs (in 99) I was freaking out, flippin' all over the place...plan REACTING...killing myself with the details...reading every e-mail, agonizing...


I had to calm down.....

and I had to start looking at myself and at my marriage....

the emotional needs questionaires can actually be fun....you do them together while you give her a platonic back rub...discuss, define what the needs mean to you ...(this is of course, if she has not withdrawn from you physically)

turn the atmosphere around you into something inviting, and safe in a family-kind of way...

like Dewt said...be pleasant

bake cookies with your d's...play games...have fun....make home a happy joyful place...children feel the chaos...they need extra love and attention from you right now...from both of you, really, but I doubt if your w is 'there' yet....

think about what kind of home life so you want??..what kind of marriage do you want??..what kind of husband so you want to be??...

let your w have some time...as I said, she made a big move today...I hope she sticks to it, but tracianado made some excellent points....

understand...she is in alot of pain today...whether what she has done is right or wrong, whether she sticks with no contact or she falls off the wagon....right now...today....she is in pain....the hurt is there, not the same as, but just like YOURS is...


ask her if she needs anything...if she'll let you, give her a hug....tell her you love her....

then leave her be....

and come back and re-read all the plan a stuff,....


Adrian, you had a GREAT day today...whether you realize that or not, I will leave to your perception....






ps.... Dewt will be back from TO sometime tomorrow...

Dr. Harley on Plan A

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html



read the first post by Ark in this thread...after you've read it, print it out...study it...

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...;page=3#1148251

Thank you all for your posts.

1. She didn’t go for NC. I checked her emails this morning…
2. She loves the OM (again emails…)
3. She told me yesterday that I was too indoctrinated with the stupid things I have read on the forum. Having said that she won’t accept MB.

I called her this morning after I got to work. There was no answer so I left her a message but she didn’t call back.
I am going to be pleasant tonight even though I know she didn’t go for NC. Maybe it’s going to happen in the next few days?

About yesterday. She also told me that we were never friends. She mentioned that she accepted my ex as a friend of mine. Why can’t I just accept the OM as a friend?

Adrian,

Big day, lots of stuff to sort through. On the friends part...she rewrote history about you and her not being friends...not your truth, right?

Now, about an ex of yours being a friend...you ready to give that up to show that dedicated, married partners do not have friends of the opposite sex, especially ones they've been intimate with? I had to do this and it was tough but worth it. She is saying she accepted your ex as your friend, but she's keeping score, looking for loopholes. Close this one for the good of your marriage.

My two cents.

Look at all those people behind you! Btw, you can call Dr Harley for yourself, too. Seems like you're at a critical juncture and would make the most sense.

You are your daughters' hero, Adrian.

LA

LA,

My Ex lives back home (overseas). I haven’t seen her in 7 years (from our wedding)! And, we broke up 14 years ago! I don’t think my W has a problem with her. She just uses her to find reasons to stay “friends” with the OM. Nothing can happen between my Ex and me. Yes, I do have her email address but if I want to, I can delete from my address book. Big deal! I have no feelings for her, anyway.

I also told my W that my relation with my Ex basically died before it actually really started and it’s never been at the same level as her relation with the OM so I didn’t think that she should’ve brought her into our conversation.

I didn’t believe that she would go for NC, but I had to show myself very enthusiastic. Maybe she really wants to go for NC but she finds it extremely hard.

During the conversation I told her about the 40 hours non talk marathon. She said “Why didn’t you call me? You just acted like always. In the past, I called the OM and asked him if his W called him that day. He said yes and I told him, well, my H didn’t.”
Since she is complaining for not calling her in the past, should I call her even after leaving her a message and not hearing a peep from her?

I know I shouldn’t focus on what she does or say. Everybody told me that. I am just trying to present you all the aspects of the events.

my first thought , as well, LA...


oooh....yup....keeping score...and the all-important justification to maintain contact...but more importantly, your w brought it up......also an easy example for her to pick out of a hat, but my guess is that there is underlying issue there....


Dewt and I just recently discussed this...if reconciliation ever occurs, there is an ex gf, now married and in the middle of a one-sided EA with Dewt , that has to go...

since we are not 'together', I cannot ask that of him at this time..(or rather, I feel I can't)...but in the future.....

please read that post in the 2nd link I sent you....it's really really good..

Adrian

I realize you are not in an inappropriate relationship with your ex. I do. It is the symbol, again, of deleting her email address and telling your wife, "You're right. I will no longer have a link to Ex. You're right."

See, it really isn't about being right, but actions of commitment. You willing to do exactly what you ask of her makes it reasonable, doable and more towards the clean slate she craves, see?

"it’s never been at the same level as her relation with the OM so I didn’t think that she should’ve brought her into our conversation." Judging what she brings into your conversation is a sure way to stop communication. Don't look to the intent she has for bringing it up. Find out if there is a tiny particle within it that needs to be addressed. Like sweeping up dust. Your own. And you own it. You are exampling your commitment, being supportive and eliminating a justification she can use. You're appreciating her for voicing her concerns, whether they are valid to you or not.

I hear you are upset and hurting. I get that. When she said she would not have contact...well, you know she has. Time to ask for a no contact letter. "I understand you may not feel like rebuilding our marriage with me right now. Since you have stated that you will not have any further contact with OM, I would like very much to believe you. I need a written statement verifying your desire to have no contact with OM."

You can say that you believe that no contact is the most important factor in deciding whether or not to commit to the marriage. That the influence of an affair partner (and you can say that) needs to be ended before she can hope to think clearly about her children and marriage.

This is only a mild DJ because if you both were in counseling, the counselor would advise this immediately. She doesn't have to commit to the marriage, just to no contact.

How are you doing on the legal end? I'm still thinking of Plan B if contact continues.

"3. She told me yesterday that I was too indoctrinated with the stupid things I have read on the forum. Having said that she won’t accept MB."

When she does this degrading of your beliefs, call her on it, calmly. "I hear you being disrespectful of my beliefs. Do you feel I tear down what you believe in? Is that why feel okay about doing it to me?"

I appreciate you posting all aspects. I think you're tired of us saying not to focus on her. I was sick of that, too. My mind would stick like burnt cheese to my WH. I remember. Her portraying you as the non-communicative one during the 40-hours is tough. You can tell us that because it hurt you, angered you and was unfair. We get that. Frustrating.

Fog does all those things. Drives a sane man nuts. I remember. Come here and know you're not nuts, Adrian. We believe in you.

LA

LA,

I have asked her for a contact letter but she totally refused to do it. “I would talk to him the way I have always done it. I am not going to follow the procedures you’ve read on the internet.”

There you go. She totally refuses to write him a letter.

About plan B. I know she won’t leave the house. If she tells me that, then what do I do?

Okay, Adrian...you said she would go no contact, but now I'm reading that she won't...she isn't. Maybe Trac, dewt, believer and soulloss can chime in on this, but I believe you'd have to state:

"I consider you actively in an affair as long as you have contact. I heard you say that you won't do a no contact letter so that I can believe you have ended the affair. What solution do you see to this? I cannot trust you because you've cheated on our marriage and lied to me. I cannot give you my trust until you have no contact and are transparent as to where you are and with evidence that you have not been in contact."

If she refuses and says you're just gonna have to trust her, then yes, it would be time to expose to her work. One last effort to stop the affair before Plan B and legal seperation. If you file for seperation, can you ask for an RO that makes it so she does have to leave the home?

I'm so sorry, Adrian. Each time she gives the reason as to what she isn't going to do because of you following external guides, I would answer "I hear you are disrespecting my beliefs. I need a no contact letter from you so that I can believe you are serious about no contact. I do not trust you nor your commitment to end your affair. It is what I believe. I choose what I believe. No one can control me but me. My choice."

Answering her at every step what you believe, you feel and you choose, and handing her back that you hear she believes that because you have educated yourself on relationships and affairs that that is why she won't follow the guidelines, would not allow her twisting fogese to back you into a corner.

You have to expose at her work, I believe. Nowhere else to do it. I'm so sorry. I know that letter will be difficult, but you have a lot of others to call on for help now, and to post your Plan B letter on for revisions.

You can do this. Remember, my H was in contact for three months after "breaking up" and wouldn't do a no contact letter...and still ended up choosing the marriage. It can happen. Have faith. Say your truth.

LA

Hey Adrian, I just got back from TO and I've got to settle in. I'll try to get back online this evening.

In the meantime, I just want to throw something in here. You mentioned that your wife said:

In relation to this, I agree with LA. You should consider your wife to be still having her affair. Even if she's not seeing him or being with him, there is technically still infidelity going on.

Also, you should reassure her that she doesn't need to follow any procedures from the internet. On the other hand, she might be willing to follow procedures if they were a plan for marital recovery that you both negotiated together.

Nobody likes to be dicatated to. And if she feels like issues regarding her happiness are being addressed too, she might be more willing to commit.

Anyway, that's to think about...

ttfn,

John

thank goodness you chimed in...lol..I've been agonizing over this one....I like presenting her with the problem and asking her to be part of the solution....



that's from Harley himself...

so is this:



is there a reason for not exposing her yet??...I must admit to not reading the beginning of this thread....I still get *twitchy* reading Dewt's stuff....so I don't know the 'whole' story....

but why has the affair not been exposed ....?

Adrian has exposed to all parties, just not her work. He can't seem to find a purchase hold on the reasons for the doing that to the company she works for. She does contact OM on company time, email and text during meetings. I'm at a loss for wording, also, though I keep shoving him in that direction (I'm bad).

Can you help with that? He's for it, just can't seem to get to the writing of the exposure letter.

SL,

Twitchy? Would love to pursue that reaction with ya. Anytime. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> (Dewt only came in the last three pages or so, if that helps.)

Adrian - Soulloss helps you out here in quoting Harley...I missed the negotiation part of ending the affair. You say what you're happy doing and ask for what she will do. It is a two-way street and I'm slanted in your direction, so I don't believe I'm being that helpful. Plan A does not mean that if she persists in saying, "I'll do it my way or no way," then you agree by silence. No. You can say, "I respectfully cannot accept your method. Help me see how your way earns my trust and builds my faith in your honesty so that can begin to believe you again, please."

More of the same. "That would be unacceptable to me."

LA

I told her that yesterday. She said "What do you want me to do?" I mentioned the letter but she didn't want to write it.

Also, remember the demands email she sent me? She asked me to trust her from the moment she ends her A and that I should not try to get close to her too soon beacuse she can't move on like nothing happened. I told her yesterday:
“Don’t you think you’re asking me for a little too much? I am not a robot (same way you told me you aren’t one) who was a switch – trust your wife/don’t trust you’re wife. At the end of the day you are having an affair, not me. Anyone would be suspicious if he was in my shoes. I think you should do something to regain my trust. I want to trust you, but I need you to help me do that. I need more than just a simple “trust me””

About transparency and email passwords. “What is this? The army? To report to you every half an hour?” she said. She disagrees with this as well.

ok...I'm going to go and think about this....

because my first reaction is an emotional one ...and we all know ou never 'go' with that one...lol...and since it comes from an emotional place, it is not very plan a-ish...


"it is innappropriate for you to remain friends with someone you broke your marriage vows with...it is innappropriate for you to remain friends with your affair partner..it is innappropriate for you to remain friends with someone who has hurt you, our children, myself, and their own families this much"

I said it to Dewt in 1999 and I said it to myself in 2004.



"we cannot begin to do any work on our marriage until your affair is over...and your affair is not over if you are still contacting the affair partner"




I'm guessing that... "I need no contact established or you need to find somewhere else to live rather than carrying on an affair in front of our daughters, your parents, and me, your husband...the man that loves you".......would probably not be very helpful..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />



alright...back to thinking....

OK.

There were emails back and forth between my W and the OM today. Needless to say they spoke on the phone as well. She called me today twice. Last time to tell me she will be late. Why did she call and tell me that?

Anyways, my question is should I ask her if she had contact with the OM today?

no.

why ask?..you already know...

there's no point..

she is having an affair....still, and you know not to expect truth, or if truth happens, then wild justifications for it all are sure to follow...

re-read what LovingAnyway wrote:

""I consider you actively in an affair as long as you have contact. I heard you say that you won't do a no contact letter so that I can believe you have ended the affair. What solution do you see to this? I cannot trust you because you've cheated on our marriage and lied to me. I cannot give you my trust until you have no contact and are transparent as to where you are and with evidence that you have not been in contact."

Adrian,

I'm calling on this mental giant melting pot for this idea:

Adrian begins to speak out loud to WW and Inlaws about affair. Has OMW and newborn over the house when WW arrives home. Family meeting.

"This is the woman whose marriage you tore apart...this is the marriage and family you are tearing apart. You have told me you ended it with OM, but you have not. Please look us in the eye and tell us what you are willing to do to stop destroying all our lives."

I'm with SL about wanting to act from extreme emotion. Good to know Adrian had the right answers in the coffee shop talk, but got nowhere. Time for tears and confrontation, I believe.

LA

soulloss,

If I told her I knew she had contact with him she would ask me how I knew that... I don't want her to know that I can read her emails...

LA,

Are you suggesting to call the OMW & baby to come to our house and confront my WW when she comes back home? That's a radical decision. What if my W would go for no contact in the next few days? I would spoil everything. Or am I just a dreamer?

I know this is gonna sound weird coming from me...

My advice is to (for the moment) do nothing radical.

Step back, Adrian. Take a breather. Let this situation sit for a few days.

The only thing I'd suggest you actually 'do' is to see if OMW will come to this site. The two of you in league against this affair would be devastating to your wife and the OM.

Apart from that, I think it would really be best to back off a little bit.

Don't let her think she's succeeding in lying to you. If she tells you there's been no contact, call her on it. Providing of course that you can do it without Lovebusting. You want to let her know that you aren't a fool, but at the same time you don't want to push her away.

You may want to pre-prepare what you are going to say.

Have you read up on Plan A? I posted you some links and so did others but you have not mentioned reading the material... (unless you did mention it but I missed that part, in which case forgive me...)

J

dewt,


There is no way I can prove her she had contact with the OM unless I tell her I read her emails and I don’t want to do that. Also, I think she already believe I am a fool. Yesterday, at the mall, she told me that she could’ve continued with the A forever and I wouldn’t have known, not even today…

I did read the plan A. I have read it before. I am trying as much as I can. But there are limits. For every man. Sometimes I want to end this in a blink of an eye.

I am sick entire of this. I am sick entire having her come back from work at 7.30PM when she should be home at 4.30PM. I am sick entire seeing her smiling in my face when I know she been lying to me. I am sick entire watching her face change when I ask her if she worked on the website. I am sick entire of getting sarcastic answers from her. I am sick entire of being told only lies. I am sick entire of being disrespectfully judged. I am sick entire of EVERYTHING. I feel like I am going to explode!!!
I can’t believe that this fog surrounding is soooooo thick.
I am tired and frustrated. I feel so alone. Like I’ve never been in my life. I feel bad. I can’t take this lies anymore.

I JUST WANT MY LIFE BACK. I JUST WANT (STILL WANT) MY WIFE BACK.

I will be on the road tomorrow (business trip to Detroit) but will check MB tomorrow first thing. I will travel with my FIL because I don’t think it’s not a good thing for me to travel alone given the fact I can’t really focus. Having him in the passenger seat would help me.

Dude,


Riiight... she told you this... well, considering that she would tell you something like that... and considering how much you know that she doesn't know you know... well, who exactly is the fool?

I think she's at the stage where she's still very much playing the fool. I don't think there's a lot you can do about that right now except hold the course... be the lighthouse...

She's going to be the one to make up her own mind, so you just focus on being a 'safe' choice for her to come back to.

I think it's great that you are travelling with FIL. Bonding time with him would be good for you and if there's anyone who can give you some insight into your wife, it's him and MIL. I've made a point of speaking with older folk over the last couple of years about marriage, life and everything. There's good solid advice to be had there.

I am going to wait until the end of the next week. If she still has contact then I will ask her to move out. Everything she told me at the mall was one big lie.

I asked her last night about her day. She said that she worked all day on a presentation. I also asked her for an update on the website. She got irritated. I asked her when she estimated she would finish it. She said "I don't know, one month..." The emails from the OM that she received yesterday were website related. "I am going to work on the website by myself. The OM won't do any work anymore." Yeah, right...

There are 11 days left. And that's it!

So the person who has been lying to you all this time about the A lied to you that it was over too. Hmmm... Honestly I don't know what you were expecting. I think we have been trying to tell you she would lie and that you needed to be prepared for it. Expect it. Also reading her emails is winding you up again. Your biggest mistake here is wanting to believe she would tell the truth.

Take another deep breath. Go back to Plan A. Forget about the 11 days. Stop checking up on her. You have made a quantum leap of progress in the past couple of days. It is obvious that the A is becoming very uncomfortable for her. Your plans are starting to have some effect. Let them work. Give them time.

Stop spying on WW for a while. Accept that she is still in contact. Keep the pressure on in other ways. Keep doing all the positive things you have been doing. Stop obsessing. Stop getting angry when you catch her in a lie. Avoid LB's, avoid DJ's, don't set any unrealistic deadlines for either one of you.

If you get angry, come here and vent, get over it and go back to Plan A. If you take the tone of your post to conversation with your wife, it will not help your cause. Only two days ago you had such a positive change. Don't blow it just yet. You were doing great - get back to it.

I am going to go back to another movie analogy. I am not speaking specifically to you - mostly I am just talking out loud. Do you remember the movie "Jaws"? Remember when Robert Shaw is talking about being in the water for four days after the Indianapolis was sunk and all the people being killed by sharks? He said that, once the rescue planes came, that was the time they were most afraid. They weren't so afraid of death when they had no hope. They were afraid of death when hope suddenly appreared. I mention this because I have had this feeling about my situation. When I though my M was hopeless, I wasn't afraid but, when I started to see a glimmer of hope of R, I did become afraid. I don't know if this will happen to you. It did happen to me so I just wanted to mention it. When it did happen to me, I immediately thought of that movie.

traicionado,

Your movie analogy is great. I guess you're right. I am somehow afraid because I had hopes last sunday... but reading the ILYs between them the very next day made me mad.
I am going to stop spying on her.

One thing I don't understand.
What made you say that? All I can see is her laughing and having a good time. She's not uncomfortable.

Just gut instinct. Stop watching her and trying to read her body language. She is the one who wanted to talk. She is the one who laid down her plan. Up to this point, she has been lying to you but not in her mind. From her POV, she has just been hiding from you. Now she is flat out lying. I think this will start to wear heavily on her. Still operating under the assumption that she is a good person, she is going to burn herself out. Keep you plan going and get a grip on your paranoia. It is normal for you to be paranoid BTW - just control it as best you can.

Be patient. Give this time. Everybody knew she was lying to you but you. Read your own thread and listen to the great advice dewt and others give you. You are doing great. Just relax and keep it up. If you don't, I'll get on a plane, fly to Canada and hit you with a real 2x4 - a good knotty one all nice and hard. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

traicionado,

You made my day. And it's not even 8.00AM.


I liked that. You're not the only one telling me about being a paranoiac. For whatever reason I feel good when people tell me to control it.

This one was the best. When I read 2x4 I remembered the hard work I've put in the basement to finish it. Just my FIL and myself. Those were the days... I love my house and I want to live in it with my family...

I will do my best to be patient.
Just about 10 min ago my W called me. She asked me if I was going to take my FIL on my business trip. I said "only if you go pick up this afternoon our older daughter from day care" She said (raising her voice) "I told last night I was going to go, of course I'll go". I said (low voice) "Perhaps I didn't hear when you said that, sorry."
She goes: "Call me from the road" Me: "OK. I will."
End of conversation.

Now I have to pack my laptop and hit the road. Looking forward to read your post. And others’.

I came back from my business trip.
I had a long chat with my FIL. I expressed my concerns but I haven’t told him about the emails. He is very optimistic and asked me to not stop now. “You’ve gone so far, you can’t stop now. You have to keep doing what you’re doing” he said. He really believes she’s going to come back… Me, on the other hand, I am not so sure… I checked again her emails and obviously there’s been contact.

I had a little chat with my W after we came back home. She was in a good mood (of course, she had contact). We talked a little bit about my trip. As soon as I asked her about her day at work she became nervous. She barely answered me saying ”It was OK.” I hate this type of conversation. I am tired of this. I don’t know how long I can wait.

At the end of the week I am going to ask her if she had contact with the OM.

I understand the feeling of "can't take this". Do you think it would be more bearable if you had some kind of solid Plan in place?

Obviously doing nothing is driving you nuts. Again, I can relate.

On the other hand, wouldn't it be better if the things you do were designed to improve your marriage instead of reactions to a horrible situation?

Please think about this. The truth is, I get scared when I read some of your posts. I'm afraid your emotions will boil over at some point and you will do something or say something that'll put you back days/weeks/months in terms of your recovery. I'm afraid of this for you because it's exactly what I did.

As for your wife, I'm very encouraged. It seems lying to you is not as easy as she might like it to be.

You gotta learn to look deep. It will help you with patience.

For example, on the surface, your wife is lying to you. But if you look deeper, you see that she's torn up about it. She knows what she's doing is wrong and she's having a hard time dealing with it.

I can't tell you how encouraging this is.

Not just from the standpoint of recovering from the affair, but also very much with the idea that your wife, in her core, is a woman of integrity and she will make you a fine wife. I'm telling you... it may take some time, but she will come out of her fog... and when she does, she will look back at how you are behaving now with much different ideas in her head.

So... let's talk about your plan...

Guys,

Don't ever forget one simple fact. Not taking action is NOT the same thing as doing nothing.

adrianc,

I have said before and will repeat. You have been your own worst enemy at times. You largely seem to have stopped doing that. Keep that part up. Doing nothing IS action. and sometimes it is the correct action to take even though it may be the hardest choice. Remember we are guys. We see problems and like to try to fix them. Your doing nothing is a very positive action because it shows WW your stability. It reminds her you are safe. She needs that now and will need it even more. Every time you blow up, you set everything back to square one. Stop shootin from the hip, Tex.

Why ask her if she had contact if you already know the answer? Why try to create a confrontation? What part of Plan A DON'T you understand? She is having an A. She will maintain contact. She will lie to cover it up. How can I explain this to you? Let the A die. Back off. How many times have you promised to stop reading emails? Go back and look at your thread. What happens EVERY SINGLE TIME YOU READ THE FRIGGIN EMAILS??? YOU LOSE IT! How can I make this any more clear? Stop spying on your WW. You don't need proof for that which you already know. I will go back to one of my previous posts: EARTH CALLING ADRIANC!!!

Set a plan in place and stay on it. You have just had a major breakthrough even though you may not see it - we can. Stop trying to control your WW. Start trying to control yourself. You are doing much better than when you started this thread all of it - what - about a month ago?

Oh and listen to dewt. I think he knows your number. And, since he is in Canada already, I can just DHL him my 2x4 and have him give you a thorough whacking for me, if necessary. Much more cost-effective. You do need a thorough beating, though.

Just for future reference and to save time in future posts, since you seem completely incapable of staying away from your WW's email I think it will be a recurring theme so we will use the new acronym TFE to refer to "THE FRIGGIN' EMAILS!". For an example of usage, please stay away from TFE. Please note that TFE should always imply capitalization of its corresponding words as well as inclusion of the exclamation mark by default.

There's also actions that you can take that are subtle and more based on healing you. Jogging in the morning is a great idea. For me, it was prayer.

Thanks guys for your posts. Now I can go to bed. Before dewt knocks on my door using the 2x4.

traicionado,
Your post made me laugh again.<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
I promise I won’t spy on my WW anymore. I know she’s having an affair but I don’t see the A dying. I just can't. Maybe it’s just me… and I hope it’s just me.

dewt,
The temperature dropped in the past few days. It’s pretty cold here in the morning so I don’t know about running anymore…

One more thing. I made a boo-boo <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />. A big one. I told my MIL that I believed my W didn’t go for NC. She’ll probably tell my W tomorrow and she will get pissed off because I don’t trust her. All this just because I read the emails…

Can I get an answer for this: Should I call my W during the day or should I just wait for her to call?

Yes it is just you! Enough already!



Let sleeping dogs lie. Let lying dogs sleep. No, don't call. Avoid confrontation when possible and certainly don't create it.

The only line I can remember from "Dune": "I will bend like the willow". Memorize it. Otherwise you might as well just take a gun to your head and blow your brains out because you certainly don't seem to need them for anything due to their apparent lack of use... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks traicionado. No call it is.

Adrian

Our stories sound so much the same it's scary! So take some hope in your not alone. There seems to be a instruction book for these WW's and they all have read the same one.

I too feel good one day and bad the next. I try to always be happy around her and when I'm talking to her on the phone. Even when I'm feeling blue. I try smiling while I'm talking on the phone, believe it or not it comes across the wire.

I know everyone says start doing stuff for yourself, but it sure seems hard to get started. You just don't feel like doing anything really because the person that makes you stand taller, be smarter and fear nothing but losing her is not there now. But you have to force yourself. And you start for a couple days and then you don't feel like doing anything. So take a day off but get back on the horse.

Sometimes you do feel like giving up. I know I do. But then I remember the person I married. And I remember the times how she looked at me, smiled at me and said things to me that made me feel like a million bucks. And it's worth it to fight to the death to find that person again.

So let her be pissed. Do you really expect her to be happy because she can't seem to get away with lying on you and cheating on you?

Consider this a 2x4....

kah-THUNK!!!

If she says anything to you, you can answer (in all loving kindness) that when she starts to earn your trust, THEN she will get it.

WW: I'm mad because you don't trust me.

Adrian: You lied to me and cheated on me. You are STILL lying to me and cheating on me. I'm sorry you are mad that I don't trust you. I'm not thrilled about it either.

WW: Now you are calling me a liar! How do you know? The affair is over!

Adrian: Really? Are you telling me that you have had absolutely NO contact with OM?

You can say all this without being mean, Adrian. And yes, it will upset her, and yes, she may withdraw for a short while. Don't pretend the truth doesn't exist.



kah-THUNK!!! kah-THUNK!!!

There's a double for ya.

All this because she's having an affair, dude. All this cause she's lying to you. You checking her emails ensures that you know the truth about what's going on. Which is a good thing... because you are not getting the truth from her.

kah-THUNK!!!

That one was just for good measure.

ltw924 , welcome to MB. Sorry about the circumstances...

I have something for both you and Adrian to think about. Imagine for a moment that instead of an affair, your wives had some sort of weird illness. If she had alzeimers, would you stick by her? Would you keep your vows? This is the same sort of thing, only it's not alzeimers. The truth is that affairs DO mess with brain chemistry, and that really complicates things, but in many ways, you both could consider your wives to be sick. Will you stick it out? Will you provide the care they need to get better?

Dang... I don't think I really explained that properly... oh well, gotta go to work now...

And yes, WAY WAY WAY too cold in Canada for jogging. I'd suggest indoor jogging, but that's weird. Try downloading some stand up comedy instead. Your W will hear you laughing and come to investigate. Heck, who knows, you may end up laughing together.

I haven't checked her emails today and I won't do it.
She called me earlier but I won't call her later.

I feel good (as good as I can feel) but my back hurts a little bit thanks to dewt's 2x4.<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Can anyone tell me what should I expect to happen when the fog surrounding the WW will lift up? Am I going to see a change in her behavior? Will she say something that would make me realize that the fog is gone? Will she show me any affection?

adrian

there is NO sudden lifting of the fog .. it takes time, sometimes a LOT of time.

you will know the fog is STARTING to lift when your ww says things indicating she was 'crazy to get into this', or 'how could I have done this' and similar.
Admission of wrong may take a whole lot longer.
Please do not expect quick easy recovery here, it will simply take time if it happens.

you must be patient, just keep working to a plan - have you got professional advice yet from the Harley's or similar??? - please do so it will be well worth it to you!
I think you are in a good position to get great advice & be able to use it to help end the affair.
Please dont hesitate to get the professional advice it can mean the difference between saving your M or not.

aussieswife,

Thank you for your post. I did have a session with Harley and he advised me to stay in plan A for as long as I can…


My feeling is that it’s going to take A LOT of time for her to say that.

Here is the website she’s working on <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />. www.scoreopolis.com. As you can see, there’s a lot of work to be done on it. Nothing is functional on the site yet. IMHO the A will not end as long as there’s website work involved. But I can’t convince her to stop working on it. It’s her drug because she’s working on it with the OM, even though she tells me he’s out of the picture.

adrianc, it may take a lot of time, but such negative thoughts reinforce your sadness. Concentrate on positive thoughts. Doing so can make a difference in the way you feel. Plan A is hard work. It's a bumpy road but you signed up for it so stay focused.

adrianc, please read the progression below. Print it out and place it beside your computer; put it in your wallet. When you feel the urge to read the emails or view the website, read it. Train yourself to think positively. It works!

Watch your thoughts; they become words.
Watch your words; they become actions.
Watch your actions; they become habits.
Watch your habits; they become character.
Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.



Whack! Whack!

adrianc, you spend an inordinate amount of time thinking about the website and the emails. Both will drive you crazy if you so permit. Both are triggers. But you must pretend the website does not exist and that the emails do not exist. You tell me: when you read the emails and pull up the website, do you feel better afterwards, or worse? There's your answer.

ToddAC

I feel worse. That's why I haven't checked her emails today.
I have posted the website address because lots of people reading my thread asked me to do it if I could.

The progression you posted is printed and already on my the wall, right beside my computer.

Adrian

I feel the same way about my WW, except instaed of the e-mail/website it's wondering what she is doing in her free, unaccountable time. It will drive you nuts and make your heart hurt. Talking here helps me. I keep thinking that I just have to keep 'acting as if' everything is positive.

Both our W's have noticed little changes and when mine is warm and friendly it takes the sting out of the cold. But then our wandering minds think is she just saying that because she wants to remain 'friends' through this or is it a sign of waking up.

A lot of times I find myself going back and re reading posts that calmed me before or that I read along time ago in the beginning of this. They make a little more sense and help to remember Plan A takes longer in a WW sitch like ours.

We know our W's better than anyone else so we know what works. We have to make sure we know when we do something that worked. So we keep on that path and not do more of the same that doesn't really work. Our actions have to be solution oriented. My W seems to be coming around more with the friendly, happy me. Granted it's not all the time or it's not as much as I'd like but it might be a crack in the door. And I just have to control myself from seeing that crack and then wanting to kick the doot in and saying 'Honey, I'm home' cuz she's not ready to be home but hopefully she will be.

I hope all WW's know that us BH's that CHOOSE to stand by them, keep loving them and stand up for our M's are not weak or scared (ok the real word I wanted to use is [censored]'s) but are men with strength and unconditional love that we promised to them. And a much better man than just to say [censored] It and walk away.

adrianc, another memorable line from a not-so-memorable movie. "A Few Good Men" with Tom Cruise, Demi Moore, Kevin Bacon, Jack Nicholson.

"The truth? You want the truth? You can't handle the truth"

The problem is not the emails. The problem is not that WW is lying to you. The problem is you. These things are tearing you apart from the inside out. I told you a long while back that there is no point in recovering the marriage if you will spend the rest of your life in a rubber room. These emails have become a drug to you. You have to break this habit. You have to focus on the real issues. You have to focus on the plan. Stop staring at a burned out light bulb or you are going to crash this thing.

BTW, what is your plan?

ToddAC,

You should cut and paste the hand clapping speech Bigger gave you on that other site. That was great. Bigger made one important observation that apparently has not occurred to adrianc just yet. It was so fundamental that it is easy to overlook. Sometimes I forget it too. I encourage you to post it here.

ltw924,

I don’t know about you, but in my situation everything I do is rejected by my WW. That doesn’t mean I’m going to stop doing what I’m doing.

I guess we’re all good people; otherwise we wouldn’t be on this board would we?

Speak for yourself. I haven't decided yet whether I am a good person or not. One of the doubts the A instilled in me. I used to think so. Now I am not so sure...

Yep, same here. All was rejected too. I cut and pasted some WW articles from this site to her in the beginning. She says back, 'that's nice if you want to work on the marriage but I don't'. SLAM. There's been worse too. But then she sheds some light of hope. It takes a while and it sucks that you give all you got in Plan A and get nothing, it seems. But you do get something sometimes and even if it is small it is something. Something that is better than a day or two ago. Even if it is just a little small talk, it's something. You just have to keep forcing yourself to do your best to be her best friend and TALK. Talk about anything, except the R.

What helps me is writing down everything I want to say about the relationship. So then I have it for the right time to talk about it. I read a thread here once, I think, that timing has a ton to do with R talk. So 1. it makes me feel better to get it out even though I'm just journaling to myself right now and 2. I'll have the thoughts when I need them. Yes I have pulled out cheat sheets when I say I want to talk to you about stuff and it helps.

My WW has moved a year ago, filed D papers over a month ago (when I exposed her A) but it seems like she and I talk more now than we have for years. You just have to keep on your path and she will break. Because remember she said that she loves you right? Just not in love or some BS like that. That is the key. There is something still in her you have to keep trying to bring out. So good! Don't give up until the very, very end. It takes a lotout of you to keep on keeping on, believe me I know. And that is waht everybody here keeps saying in one way or another.

And while you're on the movie comparison - Star Wars is one of the best. Because it's like our WW's are Darth Vader. A mean, hateful SOB from the dark side, but somewhere inside him is a little of the good side of the force and Luke Skywalker never gives up trying to get the good side to come back. Even after fighting almost to the death. He still believes Darth can come back. Just remember this line from that movie too, when Darth Vader is about to kill Obi Wan, Obi Wan says, If you strike me down I will become more powerful than you can ever imagine.

That line helps me get my confidence level back when I feel so cut down. Sorry for the dorky sci - fi reference but the shoe seems to fit. I am not the kind of guy who loses at things and what is happening to me (and you) is very difficult to get my head around. It seems like such a waste of life. So even when you think she is not noticing things I bet she is. She just has to keep that wall up. Keeping on your path and Plan A ing hard, but don't be clingy or desparate, will slowly change that block wall to a chain link fence. It's still there but at least you can see through it a little.

adrianc,

You are repeating the same behavior and expecting a different result.

Why does your WW reject everything you do?

This is very common behaviour. The wayward rejects because of Withdrawal, and also because to not reject would ruin the fantasy that makes the affair possible.

That's why I keep going on about 'being the lighthouse'. It is a good Plan A, over an extended period of time that builds up trust and breaks down the walls.

I say again, because it's so very important: This behaviour, which seems to callous and cruel, is to me one of the best signs of a recoverable marriage. It means the wayward is not capable of cheating without having a concience. It means they have integrity... even if it is broken at the moment.

I mean, think about it... If a wayward could just go messing around all the time, and never feel guilt, or conflict or even care about lying... I personally wouldn't try very hard to save that marriage, if it was mine...

Good call Dewt. That blew some air on the spark of hope.

Let me ask you this, no threadjack intended, maybe your wondering too Adrian. But why is the WW saying that the relationship can't go on without trust and that we don't have that. Well duh?! But when you ask her where she's been and gut instict says she might not be telling the whole truth, why do they give you the 'see you don't trust me' speech and if you say yes I don't, it just seems like you're stepping backwards from any progress. Does that make sense?

Adrian - is your W kinda pleasant when your alone at times but cold when around friends or family. Mine seems to get that way, like she's trying to prove that she doesn't care about us or something. This is one of my small goals to change.

Try that too Adrian, make small goals. Not just, goal 1 - have a loving realtionship again. That's too big right now. Pick something small that bugs you, something you can acomplish within a week or two. And do it. It helps you see that there is hope because there will be movement no matter how small. I read it in a book called The Divorce Remedy. i would get that one if I were you. Sorry for the competition MB's. It had some helpful hints.

Ltw,

I can chime in on that question...that's what my WH said, also. It really is in the WS script.

We've been told from childhood that you don't cry wolf (break trust); that without trust there is no relationship. I believe this was like the death penalty--only could serve as a deterrent. Doesn't work, though, IMO.

The Harley's don't think so, either. See, they say, you don't bank on trust and can still have a great marriage.

Why? Because I couldn't trust my H to take out the garbage, tell me his truth or return the movies to Blockbuster pre-A. But we had a relationship. He couldn't trust me to make our marriage a priority over the kids, not burn dinner and remember to not mix red sock with white load in the laundry.

He could trust me totally to DJ, AO and make SDs. I could trust him to withdraw, give me the silent treatment and mindread. We were very trustworthy with those things--and we had a relationship.

I trust my H now with all my heart--I trust him to be human. I know he's capable of anything, as am I. I trust myself to not make choices against my code. There's a lot of trust in our relationship...new trust. The real kind. I don't fear my H having another A; he might or might not. Still his choice as his other ones were. I live in the present and focus on our marriage as my top priority, do what I do, own it and appreciate our relationship. He trusts me to do that.

I expect him not to withdraw or punish me with his behavior. He expects me to not LB, demonstrate my love in his language and own only my feelings, not his. Our expectations are reasonable and includes forgiveness. We don't mirror one another or define the other.

Does that make sense?

LA

They give you that speech because they don't want to be caught. Then, if NC happens, they might give it to you because they don't like to be reminded of how they have proven themselves untrustworthy. Nobody likes to think that about themselves.

There's a way to answer honestly without going a step back. I am not the expert on that. I just know it's there. I can sometimes come up with something in writing, but on the spot... yikes. Fortunately there's no longer any need for that. My advice would be to have your comebacks prepared in advance. That way you can make sure they are honest and yet not disrespectful... which is what'll set you back... not the honesty part.

Always keep in mind the big picture. If they step back because you (respectfully) call them on something, then it's ok. It's called setting boundries.

Another thing I am not an expert at.

I would like to thank everybody for all the posts.
LA, Where were you? I was wondering… Thanks for coming back… I wouldn’t be on this board if it wasn’t for you.<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I had a pleasant night. I picked up as usual our older daughter from daycare and came back home at 5.20PM. My WW arrived at 5.30PM. It was a shock for me. “So early?”, I asked myself… She was very friendly, prepared the meal for me and asked me if I wanted anything else. The she asked me:
“How was the meeting?”
Me (not knowing what meeting she was talking about): “You mean yesterday’s meeting?”
My W: “Yes”
Me: “It was OK. Actually, it was better than I’ve expected. I usually get nailed big time by Ford, but for whatever reason it went pretty good.”

I didn’t get that one.<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Why did she ask me about that meeting only today? She could’ve done it last night… Anyways, better she asked me today than never…

I took my FIL (I asked my W too but she said she would stay with my MIL and our DDs) to Home Depot to buy some 2x4s (dewt – don’t laugh, I am dead serious) to build some shelves in the unfinished area of the basement for storage purposes. I love my basement, brings me good memories from when I worked hard to finish it. We had fun buying everything that we need make this project happen. I am looking forward to start working on it.

After we came back home my BIL and his W showed up and guess what? My W was friendly with her BIL’s W. That was the second shock for tonight. Then I came up with the idea of watching (at least the beginning of) the movie “The Cave” which was shot in Romania. We’ve seen a few places from back home that made us feel good. At least I was. Our older daughter “ordered” that I was going to take her upstairs to bed and my W would stay there with her until she falls asleep. I just love her when she has those demands...

Overall, I can say it was the first evening when I was not nervous. More than that, I felt good. Is it just my autosuggestion or things are getting a little bit better?

I will repeat: remove the word "why" from your vocabulary. It wastes valuable time.

Is working on the basement something you and WW can do together - without IL's?

Adrian,

I'm still here. You have truly valuable, Real Men helping you out...and other real women. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I'm in for the longhaul, just nursing my own wounds. Listen to Trac...no more whys!

You cracked me up with your sore back and dewts 2x4's...and again tonight, with you actually buying them!!! Your own humor will save you, Adrian. You get it, then you don't, then you get it again. You're human! It's a process.

And you are resourceful for yourself. Can't run because too darn cold...build instead. You have some really good metaphors going on in your life, I think.

LA

P.S. Kudos to dewt's grasp of onomonopeias...even I could feel the thwaps!

Adrian - Dude. Tonight, those little things she did, THAT IS WHAT I"M TALKING ABOUT BABY! Like everyone has said don't ask why just take them and smile. That, my friend is HOPE trying to 'punch a hole through the night'.
Now remember tomorrow a different woman could show up, if she does be kind, be still and the light will come back again, if not later that day then the next.

adrianc,

Since things seem to be pretty quiet with you, I wanted to take a minute to get back to work on you. I read that you are a runner. I am too. What I am about to write is not necessarily intended for you. Think of it more as me talking to myself out loud. If it is of any benefit, okay. If not, just treat it as nonsensical ramblings. That was for you. From here on, I am talking to me:

I like to run. I hate to run. That is, I hate to get myself all ready to run. Once I am running, I like it. There is a difference between running and jogging, in my mind. I think I could jog all day. It is a question of pace. By my definition, running is more pushing my body close to its limit. When I am concentrating on every breath, it is the only time where my mind and my body operate at the same rate. I am in sync. I am one with myself. Whatever philosophical tripe you can name it, it just seems to be. Maybe that is why I like running. I have been seeing lots of “sports” analogies lately in relation to recovery. Most say it is not a sprint – it is a marathon. Some idiot (i.e. your truly) even said the marathon was not a good analogy – that it was more like the Tour de France). Those sentiments are good to an extent but they are all wrong in a very fundamental way.

I have run races. I run at a different pace if it is a 100M, a 400M, a 1500M, a 5K or a 10K. I have run further than that but never in a race. In each competitive race I know exactly how hard I can push my body because I know almost exactly WHEN the race will be over. I never worry about the finish line or WHERE the race will be over. I only ever think about WHEN. The fundamental problem with these race analogies in relation to the recovery process is that they all relate to where. The finish line is well defined. The breakdown is that I have no clue WHEN I will reach it.

One time I found myself in Boulder, Colorado. I took my running shoes with me. I got up one morning and saw a nice running path and a nice mountain that couldn’t have been more than a couple miles away. I decide to run toward it. After about 5 miles, I swear that mountain refused to get one bit closer. I could see it crystal clear but I couldn’t get any closer no matter how long I ran.

One night many years ago, I set out to see how FAR I could run because I didn’t know and I was curious. I ran a circuit around where I lived that was about a mile and I just kept running. I eventually stopped at about 13 miles because I got extremely cold and uncontrollable shivers but I was running at my 5K pace. Regardless, whenever I set out to run, whether it is 5K, 10K or 15K, I am always running more or less around my house and the finish line is back where I started so it was not really a fair test. I have no trouble getting myself psyched if I know WHEN my ordeal is going to be over. Even so, I try to keep the pace a little difficult. A normal run for me is just over 5K and it is around the jebels at the far end of camp. I know there is a water jug about 3K from where I start. (It is important to know where the water is when you run in the desert.) The first 2K is not bad but I can’t see where the water place is for any of it. If I were to try to keep my eyes looking for it, I could not keep running. The final 1K is uphill, I am sucking wind but I can see the water can. Even so, I can’t look at it. If I do, I’ll quit running. I always do. I can’t keep my motivation even for 800M. Instead I keep my eyes right in front of me. One step. Another step. I lean forward and my momentum more than anything keeps me going. My mind can’t think very much because it is fully occupied running my body. If I did not pick my feet up and move them, I would fall flat on my face. This is the hardest part of the run – and also the best part. Every once in a while, I take a quick glance up just to make sure the water can is still there but then go right back to looking at my feet. I know I can get there because I know more or less when I am going to get there. Sometimes I find that there is no water in the can. It was false hope, in a way. I just have to set off to the next one. I never have any problem doing that. Strange.

What I am NOT good at doing is running without a goal. I have always wondered how far (long) I could really run if I were just to set out one day in a strange place where I had no landmarks or reference points and run in a straight line. If I were to tell someone to follow me in a car and pick me up when I ran out of steam so I did not have to worry about getting anywhere in particular (e.g. back to my house), I wonder how long it would be before I gave up and just sat on the side of the road. I don’t know the answer but I suspect it would not be very far. With no landmarks, there is no measurement of progress. With no end in sight, I can’t push myself. This is my primal fear in all this mess. I am on a strange route, no end in sight and no clue WHEN it will be over or, at least, when I will get the finish line in sight. Sometimes I just want to give up. Sometimes I just feel so alone. I ask myself the question how long I can keep running. Unfortunately the answer is that I won’t know until I have done it. I have no points of reference. The only motivation I have is to look down and make sure I keep picking up my feet so I don’t go spread eagle and splay myself on the ground. If I try to look up to the water can, it never seems to get any closer. This recovery process is a race with no time limit, no landmarks, no split times, nobody around to pace off of. The simple answer is there simply is no answer. How long can I run? Each day I set a new personal best.

I did have an afterthought which I am now including. I have learned one thing about running. Two things actually. The first is "uphill trains, downhill strains". The second is harder and I will steal from Douglas Adams. For those times when I don't think I can take one more step, when every part of my body aches, when my mind is complete mush such that I can't even add 2 + 2 and get the right answer, when I don't think there is anything left in me, the trick to keep running is to try to throw yourself down on the ground and miss. That last one is an extremely important lesson to remember because sometimes it is all you have.

Okay adrianc, I am back. You keep saying you are on Plan A. I am not sure that you and I spell that the same way. Get yourself some personal help. Go to IC. Get yourself together. For you to recover your M, your WW needs to see you as someone she wants to be married to. That is the basis of Plan A. What I wrote above is not intended to guide you in any way. It is a personal thought I have been struggling with for some time. Since you run, I thought it might be of some use to you. Some people might read that and write it off as me feeling sorry for myself. I think of it more as a personal struggle to reach a positive paradigm shift in mental attitude. To find one more footfall. Just one more step.

BTW adrianc,

That web site URL you posted is registered to:

Domain name: SCOREOPOLIS.COM

Administrative Contact:
Iosif, Viorel viosif@sympatico.ca
26 Bel Canto Crescent
Richmond Hill, Ontario L4E 4G7
CA
+1.9057734139 Fax: +1.0

Technical Contact:
Support, Technical support@hostmysite.com
260 Chapman Road
Suite 205
Newark, DE 19702
US
+1.3027314948 Fax: +1.0

Registrar of Record: TUCOWS, INC.
Record last updated on 06-Feb-2006.
Record expires on 06-Feb-2007.
Record created on 06-Feb-2006.

Domain servers in listed order:
NS1.LNHI.NET 209.41.184.100
NS3.LNHI.NET 65.36.160.18
NS2.LNHI.NET 65.36.160.56

Who is Viorel?

traicionado,

He's the OM.

Why are you saying this? I am trying to make my wife see me as the man she wants to be married to. That's why I am doing what I'm doing...

Up to this point you have been doing little more than crisis management. Many crises created by you. Go back and reread SAA about Plan A. Remember a few weeks ago when WW said that what you have been was not the real you? Has that changed since then? You cannot make WW fall in love with you. I suspect you are still trying to be someone you think she wants you to be instead of just being a better you. I still suggest you get IC. You have things you need to deal with yourself. Get the help you need so you can better help your M. Stop trying to be something and just be. Plan A is not something you just apply between fits of anger. It is a long, hard, thankless, painful, humiliating process that you have to be fully committed to. I can't see that you are based on your posts. Maybe I am wrong.

So we know who OM is and we have his email address. I just checked and www.friends-of-adrian.com is available. Since they like the WWW so much, I would register that domain. Costs between 10 and 20 USD to do it. I would then get a host server and make my own web site and paste the OM's picture on it along with his recent history. Then I would email that URL to everybody you know. If that is not your particular skill, it is something people like me can do quite easily. I doubt it would get a wide audience but you don't really need it. I think OM seeing himself and his disgraceful behavior on the WWW would hit hard and deep. Just my two cents. If you have a digital photo (jpeg), you could have a simple web site in a couple of hours. Many hosting packages are free but you pay for that. I prefer paid hosting which you can get for about $5 per month. I like www.ipowerweb.com myself but I am sure there are many others.

I like...

www.friends-of-adrians-marriage.com

I would post support.

I hear what Trac is saying...remember how we began your thread with the thoughts and feelings...all the "I feel" "I believe" statements? Being you is a great thing. Demonstrating you is more difficult than some imagine. Practice here.

LA

Forget about the web site for now. Forget about the OM for now. Focus on yourself and plan A.

Leave the web site on the back burner. Right now I don't want to get you distracted again. The web site might have some exposure potential you haven't already achieved but, in your mental state, I am not sure it is a wise plan.

Just remember on Plan A that WW does not want to see your changes. It will take a long time for them to sink in. For her to deny positive change in you reinforces in her mind the affair. Just be patient. And be consistent. Consistency is my biggest complaint about what you have done to-date. Please work on being consistent.

LA,

I didn't check to see if that URL is available but it is a safe bet that it is. It can't hurt to buy a URL. Many people buy them and never use them. Some buy just on spec to sell later. It can be a lucrative business although the opportunities are far fewer today than a few years ago.

traicionado,

Now I really need help.
Correct me if I’m wrong.
Yesterday, I didn’t pretend I was someone that I’m not only to please my WW. I was just myself. And I felt great. I was in a good mood, talked nice to everybody when I got home, including my W. I had a great time buying stuff for my basement project, I played with the kids, made plans with my W to register the older daughter for kindergarten and we watched together a little bit of that movie. This morning we talked a little bit in a friendly manner before she took off.
This is what I am trying to do every day. Is this the right thing to do? Does this comply with the Plan A? Or did I get it all wrong? I’ll look in the SAA again tonight.

The other thing that I’m confused about and don’t know what to do is whether or not I should be calling my W while we are at work. This morning she called me. Here is the conversation:
My W: “Are you at work yet?”
Me: “Yes”
My W: “You didn’t call me.”
Me: “I didn’t believe you wanted me to call you.”
My W: “You always called me after you got to work. For the past few days you’ve stopped doing that.”
Me: “OK. I will call you.”

After that we spoke about our older daughter, kindergarten and few other things.

So what do I do tomorrow? Do I call her?

LA, you’re absolutely right. I’ll do my best.

I will think about the URL.

Thinking of you.

Just read AshamedH's thread and am rocked to my socks. Not exactly the same situation as yours, but still. There is such growth and beauty all over, isn't there? Humans are. Wow.

Had me crying because I read Eagle's thread and had been posting to his wife's thread...man, some days, pain is everywhere. And I forgot during that to pray. We're not in this alone.

Those are my thoughts, Adrian. As to your conversation on calling...we talked about this before. What these connections (by phone) mean to you...did we get to what they represent to her?

I heard constraint in your answers to her instead of honesty. Did I misunderstand?

I remember that you calling was an act of love. Have you looked at the honesty in those calls, even pre-A? "I'm calling to say I picked up DDs from daycare." Weren't they also, "I'm calling to connect to you, hear your voice. I love your attention, even for a second, I'm filled." Mushy stuff like that. Just a thought. If it is true for you.

Thank you for each and every conversation you post...shows you're really listening, at least to me. LOL

Thanks for being here on MB.

LA

adrianc,

I am not here to criticize you. I am here to try to help you based on the mistakes I have made. If you are PO'ed at me, don't apologize for that either. We learn through communication. If you are being you, that is great. Plan A is something I had to continually revise and adjust so that it and I fit each other. I tweak it every day. Plan A is not necessarily exactly the same for everybody but the good thing about it is that it help you establish guidelines or boundaries. Just remember we are trying to help. Remember to always be positive and upbeat. Have you ever gone to a party and seen those few people who are the "life of the party"? The ones others like to flock around like moths around a candle? You need to be you but you need to be more you than normal. I don't know if that makes sense. I do suggest you establish some guidelines for yourself under Plan A and revisit them every day for a while.

Regarding the phone calls. My suggestion is don't do it. It is somewhat complicated. There is only one reason why you should make the calls but it is pathetically twisted and I will explain that too. Right now your WW is still in contact with OM. She knows you don't trust her and have been checking up on her. The fact that you don't trust her drives her crazy IMO so she wants you to make that call because a) she has the misguided belief that she is reestablishing trust and, more importantly, she is establishing exactly where you are. An example of what I mean by that is if a WW is going to run off for a quicky with an OM, it is common practice to call BH to make sure he is at home or work first. Then she can run off because she knows she won't be seen and she knows that there is no way you are going to call her right back and find she is not there because she thinks you would be violating the trust you two have recently established. WW will try to force you into pattern behavior. She wants you predictable. Now, what is the one reason that could rationalize the call? Maybe she doesn't trust herself. Maybe she has every desire to run off with OM during each coffee break. Maybe the only thing stopping her from doing that is fear that adrianc might call. She needs your call to stop her from doing something she knows she should not do. That is pathetic (words I used on my WW). It is not your responsibility to stop the A. It is her responsibility. Never let her use you to make up for her weakness and immaturity.

Right now she says she wants you to call. I can't see any good reason for it. I can assure you that once she establishes NC and begins withdrawal, she will scream at you for calling her at work. Yell at you for not trusting her. Complain that she just wants her "life" back and not be under a microscope.

The only good reason why WW would want you to call her is that she is a FWW and misses you and wants to do everything she can to try to reconnect to you and prove to you that she can be trusted. Do you think she is there yet? I don't.

When OM was here, my WW used to call right before she would run off to meet him. Made her feel safe knowing where I was. After OM was gone, she called supposedly to help me gain trust. Now she is scared to leave the house for fear that I will call and not find her here and wonder who she is with or what she is doing. She feels like she is under house arrest. The phone calls have just been a curse. That is my advice based on my experience anyway. If you feel the phone calls are a good thing in your situation, just vary the pattern. Don't call every day. Call at different times. Sometimes call multiple times. Don't let her get comfortable in knowing whe you are going to call. Unfortunately there is a danger to you in doing this. You start trying to play mental chess again. It can feed your paranoia and I think yours needs to go on a diet as it is.

One criticism in your conversation:


That was an unnecessary comment and tells her that she is still in control. If you want to call, call. She is your wife. This may come across as cruel but think about it. I probably would have said "I didn't have anything in particular to say" but not in an angry way, if you know what I mean.

I am glad you felt great. You cannot control WW. You can only control you. At the end of all this, regardless of the outcome, you have to be able to look yourself in the mirror and like who you have become. If you are pretending to be someone you are not, you create a house of cards that will eventually fall.

One last tidbit. Everyone is telling you to be consistent. There is a difference between being consistent and being predictable. Try not to be predictable. Don't let WW get into a comfort zone. She needs to feel safe with you but not necessarily comfortable. But please be consistent.

adrianc,

It appears that you and I are on a similar timeline. This is tough duty we have been handed. Our beating hearts have been torn from our chests by the very person who vowed to protect us. There is much hurt and anger. Running with Plan A is exceedingly difficult, make more difficult by the fact that the person who created the need for Plan A will not lift a single finger to help.

The most important component of Plan A is consistency. You must be consistent with WW because she cannot be.

I agree with traicionado that you should not call WW. Also, do not let WW set the agenda. Meeting WW EN's does not imply doing everything she suggests. If you call, trust me, WW will later throw it in your face. I have been there. My WW now knows I will never call her unless there is an emergency with one of our sons. House burns down - no call. Car is stolen - no call. Flying saucer lands on front lawn - well, you get the idea.

Try to settle down and think through Plan A. Identify where your weak points may be and address so that you know how to respond in advance.

Continue to post here and in other's threads as well. Giving advice is good therapy.

traicionado,

I am on this board because I am lost. I need your help as much as I need LA’s help and everybody else’s help. If I were afraid that someone might criticize me then I wouldn’t be here.

Back to your post. I think I got your point about being consistent and being predictable. I believe that so far I have unintentionally been predictable. I am going to have to change that.
I don’t believe that either. But her behavior changed in the past few days. In a good way. Now, I don’t know if something good happened or this was just one of her games...

Last night we went to Home Depot to buy vinyl tiles to cover the ledges in the staircase. My BIL asked her why she wanted to do home improvements when the OM is selling his house. Didn’t like his comment but just like you said, I could only control myself. After Home Depot we went for grocery shopping and everything seemed to be fine. If someone would look at us and hear us talking he/she wouldn’t know that we’re having a problem. I believe I did pretty well last night.

I wasn’t going to call her today. But I spoke with my FIL earlier and he asked me if I could drive him, my MIL and our younger DD to the mall (at lunch time) and leave them there for a few hours. His plan was that my WW would go pick them up after work. I agreed with that. Then my WW called me (she spoke with my MIL):
“Are you going to take them to the mall?”
Me: “Yes”
My WW: “Talk to them and establish the time and place where I should go to pick them up, and call me back to let me know.”
I called her back but I got no answer so I left her a message: “You forgot to take your cell phone today so your father has it. Call him directly. See you later.”

After lunch she called me again:
“I got your message and I’ll call my father later.”
Me: “OK”

Other than that, nothing happened today.

One of my coworkers gave me two tickets for the auto show. Every year I went with my W to see it. I believe it’s a good opportunity to spend some time with my WW if she is willing to come with me. If not, I’ll probably take my FIL and eventually our older DD. That would be the plan for Saturday. For Sunday, I have no plans yet.

Thanks for the update. I do think it is good to avoid pattern behavior. Being consistent and being predictable is not the same thing. One of the things that confuses us is that we have been dealing for WW for the longest time but now W occasionally surfaces and we almost recognize her. Every time you think that you see W, do your best to try to connect to her. I like to think of it as the doctor talking to the wild schizophrenic personality of a person named "Bubba". "Bubba, is Billy in there? I want to talk to Billy. Let me talk to Billy please." It is just to hard to know if you are talking to W or to WW so do your best thinking it may be W but always keep your guard up in case it is WW. WW has created an elaborate fantasy where everything fits just right and, at the moment, you are not playing along.

Keep in mind that WW has changed from the W she used to be but you are also changing and this confuses WW. She will test you to see if she can get a handle on the "new you". At least that is my theory. I wonder if any FWW's here have any ideas.

Don't worry about BIL's question. He actually did you a favor because it is a question that you could very easily have posed if you were still allowed to use the word "why" (which you are not). I am glad he asked it and he might have had good intentions. I am sure he talks to MIL and FIL and understands their wishes. Just don't involve him yourself. Use your Plan A on him too. Remember your history with him has not always been the best.

You will be surprised how few plans that WW and OM may actually have. In my case, at one point we were preparing for WW to leave. She had no idea where she and OM would live, what they would do, if they would get married or just live together, if she would work or not, etc. They spent hours on the phone for months but apparently had not made one single plan. Plans are real and the A is fantasy. It is far easier to talk about how much you are in love and how you will live happily ever after. That fulfills the fantasy. Concrete plans just get in the way and are totally unnecessary. The are minor details that will magically work themselves out. I am sure it would never occur to her that home improvement was a waste of time because she was planning on leaving. She compartmentalizes. I am sure that helps her retain her sanity. Her life with you has nothing to do with the affair. She keeps that separate. It would never occur to her that home improvement is a wasted exercise if she were planning on leaving. BIL's question had to make her wonder, even for a fleeting moment, just what the heck she was doing.

Remember that WW will do thinks to provoke you. Don't get mad. Stick to your plan. You said:



You may never know the answer to this so don't think about it. Your plan stays the same regardless of what she does. Who is going to install the tiles? Will she do it or will she help? Get her as involved as best you can.

LA,

I liked your domain name suggestion. Always nice to have a woman's touch. I bought it. It will take about 24-48 hours for the registries to update. They poll every 24 hours as I understand it. I will add a bulletin board to it if I can remember how... Let's see if you really do post.

I like your theory about Bubba and Billy. I guess that’s exactly what happened in the past few days. One day Bubba, the next day Billy. Today, I had no doubt, it was Bubba 100%. She came home, everybody was in the basement, but she didn’t come downstairs. She didn’t talk to anyone. After a while I decided to go to a store with my FIL. I went upstairs, I told her we were going to go out but she was very cold and basically ignored me. So we left. I believe it’s better to leave her alone when she’s acting like this. Nothing changed while we were away. We came back. I told her that I got two tickets for the auto show but she walked away while I was talking to her telling me that she’ll think about it…
That was for tonight. She went in the bedroom at 9.00PM.

She told me before we bought the tiles that she wanted to do this job. Maybe I should involve myself and try work together with her?

About her plans. She might have thought about where she was going to stay. I have noticed on our computer that she visited a few websites for apartment rentals.

Offer to help with tiles but don't insist and only do so once she gets ready to begin the work. Just make sure she is involved one way or the other. I will be curious to see how long those tiles just sit around. Never mention them if they are not installed soon. Just ignore them.

So you saw she may have been look for apartment rentals. How does that make you feel? You already know why I am asking - don't you? Be honest here.

Don't panic that she MAY be looking for apartments. She might be. She might have made up her mind to leave. Have a Plan B program ready just in case. She might be looking at this and be panicking herself. There is a big difference between talking about making a major life change and actually doing it. She might be more panicked than anybody. You don't know (and can't know) so don't worry about it. It is not your problem to deal with.

Keep one thing in the back of your mind. She is not a novice with computers. She has probably long since figured out that you are checking up on her with the PC. She can just as easily use it for disinformation as information. This is one of the reasons I wanted you to stay away from the emails. I am afraid that you have said and done too much already that you may have compromised the PC as a reliable information source. Now, if you start thinking about it and start asking "is this what she is really thinking or is this what she WANTS me to think she is really thinking", well, just go and check yourself into that rubber room. Just remember: if you go to that room, dress for it - jacket and tied required!

She woke up at 6.00AM today. In a good mood. She spent about an hour in front of the computer (same one I am using right now). Her cell phone is right here. One foot away from my hand, but I am not going to touch it. Same way I didn't chek her emails for the past I don't know how many days. She probably had contact with the OM.
She started wroking on the tile project.
She told me to take my father to the auto show... Should I leave her with her parents and the kids the whole day?

Anyways, I am going to go upstairs to ask her if she needs my help on her project.

Later

I think WW needs to connect to the kids too. I just hope MIL does not do all the work. Oh well. You have a lot of temptation within fingertip reach. Stay strong. You can do it.

Just remember that you not checking emails is for your benefit. I think that source is compromised anyway. You can no longer rely on the info as credible. Regardless, you have to get your head screwed on straight and it looks like you are finally starting to do just that. I am proud of you boy. Just keep going.

Traic, you said this a coupla posts ago, and I thought it would bear repeating. This is what it ALL boils down to. For you. For Adrian. For me. For pretty much all of us. It's really quite simple when you think about it.

That's why you gotta take care of you. Get your head on straight. Calm your heart and your head and play it cool.

I believe that first of all she needs to see me in the first place, then to see me as someone she wants to be married to. Right now she treats like I am invisible, someone who doesn't exist. We went to Home Depot this morning to by some trims to finish the tile project. All conversations were f*cked up, even though I tried my best. We came back home and she left to the Bank. I knew that she was going to do that but she simply took off without telling anybody. We just realized at one point of time she was no longer in the house. Then she called me to tell me that she had to wait for an hour so she would go for a drive...
My plan was to spend time with our DDs (me + my WW). All my ideas were rejected by her, but there is a posiblity we might go pick up a circular saw from a friend of mine. Just the two of us (no DDs). It's better than nothing but IMO the fog not only it's there but it's very thick.

I have to admit that I kind of got nervous but I came here and calmed down. I expected smething else from this morning but hey, it could be worse.

Dude... if you think she isn't fully aware of you... you are wrong. She may act like you are invisible, but NOTHING could be further from the truth.

Also, I tell you truly, it is not better that she NOT 'see you in the first place' then see you as someone she wants to be married to."

In fact, if there are aspects to your behaviour that are going to work against you being an attractive choice to her... it would be far far better that she not see any of that at all.

Enjoy the good moments with her when they come... then afterwards, give her some space and time to digest the experience. One mistake I made with my WW was that when things went well, I'd be like an addict, grasping for more more more. That has set me back and is still something I have to watch out for.

Bide your time. Play it cool. Relax...

I personally think you are doing well. Your posts still have that panicky quality, but your actions seem to be holding to the path.

Unfortunately I am not in the position to grasp for more because I don't see things going well in my case to begin with. She still has contact. Anyone can see that. I am fed up with everything. I am tired of this game. I am tired of being Mr. Niceguy while she is Ms. "I do whatever I want". I am only hoping I won't explode one day and ruin everything I've done so far.

We'll take our older daughter to the skating arena tonight... I'll post after that.

I have faith that you'll go to Plan B before exploding and ruining, Adrian.

I have faith that you know you don't just pretend to be MrNiceGuy, but that is who you really are. A human doing the best he can with what he believes and how he feels.

I would hope this MrNiceGuy would stop DJing others, because he is judging them, which gives himself more pain. I believe Adrian won't continue to do this to himself. I believe he will see himself as the kind of man who respects others and does not mindread or assume.

I see Adrian as respecting himself...acknowledging that cell phones within his reach are painful symbols; that he has triggers of the present and the past and that he knows he has control of himself and is strong enough to admit his feelings and strive to understand them.

I want to post on www.the-friends-of-adrians-marriage.com very soon. Tell the world how I see him and that was he's doing is very significant and real. And tough. And understood.

LA

And to dewt...

I was just like that!!!! Grasping at first hint...oh, my. :::

Good to know about me.

LA

adrianc,

Please go back a bit in your thread and reread what I said to you when you made the comment that "you hated Plan A" just so I don't have to repeat myself.

What you are feeling is what we all feel at times. It is natural. You are trying to deal with a complex plan while trying to cope with your own hurt. This is why you need to get help as in IC. If you progress and make headway in your Plan with WW and things begin to move to R for the both of you, things are going to get far worse for you. I know you can't worry about that just yet because that is so far distant (could be days could be weeks) from where you are now.

I can promise you that even if you get this whole thing turned around and WWbecomes the dutiful W again, you are going to have some serious personal issues to cope with. I know because I am there and it is far scarier than where you are now.

Plan A is a thankless filthy job. If it makes you feel better, remember you are not alone. Many of us are suffering along side you in our own battles. Actually I don't know why that would make you feel any better because it depresses the heck out of me. Unfortunately it is the path we have chosen.

Remember that you can walk away from this at any time or you can go to Plan B. Nobody will have any less respect for you and you can certainly respect yourself. Just try to remember the running analogy. When you have nothing left to give and no energy left, the trick to running is to try to throw yourself face forward and miss.

The feeling is normal. Vent it here and be done with it and get back to being consistent. Always remember that WW is trying to provoke you. I can assure you she would be far happier if you yelled, screamed and fought with her night and day. That is what she wants and needs to satisfy her fantasy. You are not playing by her rules and it is driving her insane.

If you get really fed up, before you do anything else, help me with info you want to put on the web site. Remember that the intent is exposure. I still don't see the DNS updated here although that is not unusual as it can take 48 hours for it to be updated worldwide. I may not have set the URL properly and, if not, will get it fixed tomorrow (today). I also made a mistake when I set up the hosting because I plan to use a server I have for another URL. What may happen is that I may get it working and then it will go down for about a day and then go back to working fulltime. I should have just used domain forwarding rather than replacement. As always 20-20 hindsight. Oh, and I hate to say this but your OM got a real nastygram yesterday from an anonymous email account. Poor guy. Don't ask me how I know this because I have no idea who sent it.

I had the most excellent pleasure of spending a few weeks snowboarding in the interior of British Colombia this winter. My guide was taking me up a mountain on his snowmobile and he had it pinned. It was killing me. My leg muscles were past the point of complaining, past the point of pain. They were jelly and I could barely hold on. Being somewhat macho, I did not want to admit that I needed a break.

At certain point however, reality over-rode my natural desire to look tough in front of another dude and I had to ask him to stop for a moment.

He points up the hill, at the beautiful white expanse of snow towering above us and says, "can't stop here, avalanche path."

So, I held on. I held on for another 2 kilometres until it was safe for us to stop.

It was (and is) the same when it came to my wife.

When the affair was going on, I thought I couldn't bear another hour.

After I pushed her into a decision and we split up, the pain was so intense I thought I couldn't bear another day.

After 3 months, I thought I couldn't bear another week.

After 7 months, I thought I couldn't bear another season. The thought of going into a 'one year' anniversery with stuff still a wrecked was unbearable...

We are now past 2 years and although the affair is over and we are living next to each other and getting along, we are still not in 'recovery'. I strongly suspect it will be some time before we officially cross that line...

BUT...

I am still here.

'Cause I can take it.

I can take anything for the good of my family.

I would be willing to die for them if I had too. I wouldn't even have to think about it.

Anything.

Certainly this is less than dying... although it felt pretty close at times...

What I'm trying to get at is that I have realized, after proving it to myself over and over, that I am capable of a lot more than I think I am.

I think we all are.

I think we forget that sometimes.

But if we keep our eyes on the prize and refuse to give up, I don't think we can ever be defeated.

adrianc,

I understand your doubts. I also understand that you may reach a point where you can't take any more. What are your thoughts about what is going to happen in April? I think your IL's have about 8 more weeks before their visas expire? That will change things significantly for you and WW. It is going to put a lot of additional stress on both of you. Have you thought it through as to how you are going to manage without MIL? I am sure you realize she is doing a lot for you but I am also sure you don't realize exactly how much she has done because you, like me, are male and we are simply clueless. You need to have a plan on how you are going to take care of the children and WW needs to understand and accept her part of the responsibilities too. I think MIL leaving will be a good thing in that it will force WW to assume more familiar responsibility. I think it will force her to reconnect with her children. Right now she can justify her neglect because MIL is there to pick up the slack but that will soon become impossible. My fear is that the children will become the battle line and they need to be protected as much as possible. BTW, this is not a question you need answer. I am just thinking out loud again. Just plan ahead and be prepared.

Any chance of W going back with her parents for a short while to re-assess her priorities. Like Plan B, maybe?

That's probably an insane suggestion. Nevermind.

It is not insane, dewt. It also brings up the topic of what Plan B would be. In my personal situation, I can see Plan B taking three forms. One of them means the M is likely over. The other two offer some hope. I think it is wise to develop some ideas for a Plan B well before implementing them. I also found it to be therapeutic.

I think your Plan B suggestion is a good one and offers hope for the M. Keep in mind that this particular Plan B does not have to coincide with IL's leaving. WW can always hop on a plane later. On the other hand, it might be beneficial for adrianc to talk about that contingency with the IL's while here so that they understand and are prepared. You have to be careful not to divulge too much info here because MIL has a loose tongue. I would just say that he may want WW to go "home" for a while to have time to reflect. I am afraid that if MIL is back in Romania and suddenly gets a call from WW to pick her up at the airport, MIL would read that as the M is done and over. I think MIL needs a little prep time. Even if Plan B never occurs, it can't hurt to lay some groundwork.

I read everybody's posts.
It's very late and I am so tired I cannot write everything that goes in my mind right now. Plan B is almost imminent, and the idea of WW going back to Romania is not bad...
Anyways, I will post tomorrow.
Before I go, I think you should know that the OM's parents DON'T KNOW about the A.

I thought we had hit on exposure repeatedly and you reassured that everybody already knew. Why don't the OM's parents know? What stopped you from doing that? Git R Done!

Why do you say Plan B is emminent? These are the kind of posts you should not make because you are driving dewt crazy with worry. What makes you think Plan B is on the horizon? if so, what is your Plan B? How do children fit into Plan B?

If you go to Plan B and can convince WW to go to Romania, you establish physical distance between her and OM although you can't guarantee NC. She is separated from her children (unless she takes them), she gets back to her roots and the surroundings she grew up with. It gives MIL more opportunity to work on her (assuming that is a good thing). And, very important, it will help you keep your sanity. If, on the other hand, your Plan B is that she run off with OM, I doubt you would ever want her back even if she came begging on hands and knees. Just a guess - I can't read your mind.

I said that Plan B was imminent because I barely have any feelings left for my WW. Plan A is good as long as you can cope with the situation and still have feelings for your WW.
Every person has his/her own limits driven by his/her philosophy of life. By doing Plan A, you deliberately bend all your rules and principles. If you are a person that cannot go beyond that, then you won’t make it. You can force yourself to do it and you might succeed up to a point where you cannot take it anymore and you’ll give up. I’ve almost reached the point where I’m about to give up.

I have huge concerns with Plan B. This is how I see it:

Option 1. If I simply ask her to leave then there will be quite a few questions:
- She might not want to leave, so what would be next under these circumstances?
- How do the DDs fit in this separation? (traicionado already asked that)
- Who is going to pay the bills? We both make the same in a year and the money goes in a common account. How is that going to be handled? Where would she take money from? If she had her own account then how do we split the mortgage payment?
- Do I want her back after this? I am not sure.

Option 2. She moves out with the OM. If that is going to happen, then it’s OVER. I won’t take her back no matter what.

Option 3. She takes a break and spends 1 month back home with her parents. The children will stay here (I would bring my mother to look after them). She would have time to think about the future. If she wants to have contact with the OM she’ll do it anyway and I know I can’t stop that (internet is everywhere). There will be no physical contact (just like traicionado said) but they won’t talk on the phone (or at least not that much). This option might happen after her parents are flying back home which would be end of April. My concern is that I don’t know what feelings I’ll have left for my WW by then.

I like only Option 3.


Back to yesterday. We took both girls to skating arena. It was OK, we did talk, but again, everything seemed so false. We came back home and we found ourselves in the house not having too much to talk about. Then my BIL and his W showed up and we watched a movie but not with my W. She disappeared in the bedroom.
Today, there’s been contact. For sure. I went with my FIL to the grocery store and when we came back and enter through the door I saw my WW running in the basement closing the door behind. She had the phone in her hand. She came back and avoided eye contact. She sat on the couch and her eyes were looking towards nowhere. My MIL looked at my face when I came in. She new that my WW was talking to the OM. I still don’t understand her reaction when I showed up home.
The weekend was neither good, nor bad so far.

I forgot one thing. The OM's wife is afraid to call the OM's parents because she thinks that they might get a heart attack. I am going to find out their phone number and call them myself.

I am glad you thought through your Plan B options. I think you have come to pretty sound conclusions. Just a couple of thoughts:

1) You mentioned that, if you ask her to leave she may not go. That is a real concern. You need to think it through.

2) If she goes to Romania for a break, place no time limit on it. Present it to her as an indefinite break. If your mother comes to help, she gets a six month visa right? One month will probably not be enough.

I understand your feelings but what you are not understanding is that they are ONLY feelings. I understand exactly what you are going through because I am doing it to. There is not a day that goes by that I don't wish that this was over even if it is only for a few seconds. Your feelings are normal. At the end of the day, the decision is yours and yours alone and we will support you either way. I want WW gone from my life. I guess I still have some hope that maybe one day W will walk back in the door. That hope keeps me going - at least so far. My DD's love their mom very much. That also helps me. In your case, I don't see your children that connected to Mom. If that is true, I might be more tempted to give her the boot.

For your Plan B option 1, I will say that IMO it would be better for her to tell you she was leaving than for you to tell her. If you think that is possible, that might make it worth holding out a little longer.

Oh, I almost forgot: MAKE THAT PHONE CALL NOW!!!!!!!!

traicionado,

Thank you for you post. I have to say that during these past days/weeks the best thing that happened to me was to see someone post on my thread.

I have no idea how to react if she wouldn’t leave.


I’ve actually asked her a few weeks ago to go to Romania for a month but she totally rejected the idea. That doesn’t really mean that she won’t accept it in the future. I am talking to an alien, right? I like the idea of indefinite break but I am being realistic and having a hard time believing she would leave for Romania for an unspecified period of time.

About tonight visit. She acted naturally. I somehow got pissed off because he was in a good mood, but then I asked myself: “What do you want? If she acts weird and she’s in a bad mood, then you’ll be upset. If she’s acts naturally, like nothing happened, again you’re not happy. What do you really want?” So I looked after myself. I had a few beers, talked to the host who told me that he thought that things were going to be OK even though in his opinion my WW made some inappropriate comments.

On the other hand I believe I got the OM’s parents phone number. I searched the internet by the last name and I found it. Nothing is for sure but I will call them tomorrow and find out if I reached this parents.

I have to admit that I didn’t get this one. Why do you think that things are going to get worse? Am I missing something or just because I didn’t get there yet I simply couldn’t understand? Please elucidate here.

What do you think about this: I could email the OM’s boss about the A. Tell him that the OM is using his work email address to keep his A going. Do you think that it would be efficient or it would make things worse?

One other thing: Plan B is still a process to try to eventually recover the M. You sound like you are almost ready to go straight to Plan D.

Okay, now I am going to talk out loud again. When we BS's have our D-day, we are faced with a major crisis and we have to deal with a lot of things in short order. Initially we are stuck in denial and that may be the reason we decide to start on the path to R. We want to fix something that we know in our heart is not really broken to begin with. Unfortunately that is a wrong assumption. We also may not have all the facts which clouds our judgement. I was told that a mistake had been made, that it was over, etc. Pure lies. They were easy lies to believe however because I was still firmly planted in denial with a little bit of bargaining thrown in for good measure.

For whatever reason I decide to try to save the marriage. I stumble across SAA and, eventually, this web site. I sign up for MC. I do all the things I am supposed to be doing except the most important - looking out for me. Plan A involves a tremendous amount of self-denial. I focus everything on Plan A because I want R but, in reality, I have never really decided why I want R and there is also the problem that I don't have a clue what R really is. What will I have when (or if) I ever get there? I have to deny myself those thoughts. Initially I get involved with a series of crises. Those provide distraction so I don't dwell on my doubts because I simply don't have time.

The one big difference between a BS and a WS (IMO) is that the WS believes love is a feeling whereas the BS believes love is a commitment. WS no longer understands the commitment but the BS still understands and remembers the feeling - and wants it back. We can understand the WS far better than they can understand us. Partly that is because they have forgotten that love involves commitment but partly because they have reinvented us in their minds. Their view of us and our view of us just don't jibe. The difference is that they don't care and we do.

If I follow the SAA principal of the love bank, WS may have begun the A because her love bank had a debit balance but now, after D-day and during Plan A, WS is continually withdrawing from my love bank. So, yes, there is a very real danger that I may no longer believe in the premise that started me on this journey. If she keeps it up, she may withdraw so much that I may reach the point where I no longer want R. But how do I know if that is the truth or just a transient feeling? Good question. What is the answer?

I have never really had the time to deal with my own grief. I am too busy trying to save a marriage for both of us because WS has no interest. What I really need to do is allow myself time and opportunity to grieve the loss - the loss of love, the loss of trust, the loss of the image of perfection I once had for WS. These are confusing times and, as such, I can no longer completely trust my own judgement. I seek help and advice but only just enough to get me over a crisis. What I really need is time for me. I need real help. I need to be able to deal with all this in a healthy way and I need to be able to heal the gash that WS cut in my heart. At the moment all I am doing is applying pressure to the wound but I am not healing the wound. I may go to a doctor to stop the bleeding but I don't know, right now, if the doctor can heal the wound. I think right now that WS is the only one who can heal me and she can't be bothered.

At some point I have to allow myself to heal. If WS drops the A and commits to R, the problem is not solved. In fact, I will probably crash and burn and then I will need serious help. Whether WS stays or goes - whether I R or D - I need to heal and, right now, in Plan A, I don't have that luxury. Right now I am a mental mess and I recognize it but I am not sure what to do to correct it.

WS is no longer the S that I married. That S ceased to exist. WS may some day become FWS but it will never be the same. Do I believe that FWS is someone that I want to spend the rest of my life with? I simply have no way of knowing. I am not sure of what my goals and desires will be by then and, the longer WS remains implanted firmly in the A, the less likely I will want WS back.

I know I need to believe in something. I no longer have the feelings for WS that I once had. She has progressively killed those. At this point, all I can believe in is the commitment of love - the promise I made to WS the day I married her. I believe in my responsibility to DD's when I elected to conceive them. I believe in those things and they give me a second wind but I know that at some point, if things stay like they are now, I will collapse from exhaustion and give up.

As I walk this path, I am changing and growing. My desires may change as well. It is very possible that what started me down this road will no longer seem important. I am about six months since D-day. I know I am losing interest in WS. It would be far easier to cut my losses. I know where lies the path of least resistance. So far, I choose to take the road less traveled.

Last night I was ready to call it quits. This morning when I got up, I went and stuck my head in the door of DDs' room. I saw them sleeping like angels. It was enough to get me through today. And that is all I have - one day at a time.

If you have no idea, don't have the conversation. Think about it some more, post here and get opinions.



A month ago she couldn't stand the thought of being that far from OM. Probably still can't. I am not telling you to send her to Romania for an unspecified time. You need to have some limit fixed in your mind. What I am telling you is not to tell WW what that time limit is. She should go with that doubt. Give her an open return ticket. Don't mark the return date on the calendar for the both of you to see. She should go (if she agrees) knowing that you are willing to give her the time she needs.

Avoid alcohol - even a few beers. Alcohol is a depressant and clouds your judgement. I am deadly serious about this. Do not drink a drop! I know that is tough duty living in Canada - you have some great beers there. Why are you getting marital advice from a bartender? That only works in the movies.



Yes - it is so obvious that you continually overlook it. Don't worry about it right now. Just remember that your problems are far from over and your doubts will nag you for a long time.

Arianc,

BTW, I forgot this last night. I got a kick out of WW running into the basement with the phone. Compare this to a couple of weeks ago when she was getting those phone calls in front of your face and all you did was get her coffee and bonbons. Something has changed. It was a funny mental picture.

Also go back up and read a couple of posts in case you missed one because you and I cross-posted a while ago.

Now to your question:

This is off in the future so don't worry too much about it but so as not to keep you in suspense.

Right now what you cannot recognize is that you are changing. You don't see it because it is gradual. If you go back and read your original posts, compare yourself today to yourself back then (only a few weeks ago was it?). You continue to grow and change. Who is to say who you will be if WW ever comes around and commits to R. Who is to say if you will even want R at that distant time?

If WW ever does "come around", she will be filled with guilt and remorse and what is it women like to do? Talk. You are going to have to be even stronger to help her through that difficult time and it is very likely she will want to talk about the A and sordid details you know nothing about. She is going to peel the scab right off your wound and you will begin to bleed all over again. Are you strong enough to endure the pain she will inflict on you then?

The one advantage you have now is that you have relatively little invested and you can walk away at any time and you know it. If, on the other hand, WW does repent and does want to salvage the M as a result of all your hard work, you will no longer have the luxury of being able to quit. You will be stuck. If, at that time, you decide to quit, you will become the betrayer. You will no longer have an escape strategy. You are in it come heck or high water. Are you strong enough to take anything and everything that might come your way? You may think the easy answer is yes but don't be so sure. She will unintentionally flay you to the bone because she needs to heal. You have already been cut through the heart. Are you prepared to do it again – only worse?

traicionado,

I have read your latest posts several times last night. Everything you wrote makes sense. I guess I was afraid to admit it before but ever since the D-day I was scared about the future. I didn’t know, and still don’t know, whether or not I want to R. I am asking myself “Do I want to go for R because I believe it’s going to work or I want to go for R because I can’t accept to lose everything myself and my WW have built together?”
One of your posts made me think again. I guess that the fact that you put it in writing made me accept the idea of not wanting the R. Before it was just a thought that I didn’t want to accept, something that I deliberately avoided pretending that it didn’t exist. But I can’t fool myself. You’re right when you’re saying that FWW can’t be anymore the W I married. It simply can’t be. There are things done that cannot be forgotten.


I can’t say I have the strength to do it again. And if I don’t have it now, how could I have it in a few months when I’ll probably have no feelings for my WW anymore.

I did not tell you that to discourage you. I told you that to prepare you because, from what I have seen, I think you have what it takes. I have asked myself those very questions and I found my answer. My WW can drain every last ounce of blood I have if it will lead to our recovery and happy marriage. I understand what you are going through. It is fleeting. Be patient with yourself. Give yourself time to do what is best for you.

And stay away from beer. In fact, if you have had any beer within the last 24 hours, don't talk to WW, don't talk to anyone. Go out and run. Stay to yourself. Let the alcohol get out of your system before trying to have an intelligent thought. I am deadly serious about that.

Adrian,

Good morning! What a weekend. I really liked your questioning yourself about evaluating WW's moods. You're still getting the best advice from Trac and dewt.

I have one point.

About losing your feelings for WW, so thinking of Plan B, not much remaining, won't take her back if she runs off with OM...

Okay. One of the things that bothered me about protecting BS's remaining feelings was that we are telling our WS's that their feelings can come back...lovebank, ENs, no LBs, etc., correct? That them not feeling for us, BS, will change, return, stronger than before, because of what we know now...Then we use feelings as a reason...

So what if we don't use our feelings as a reason for action? That is what happens in Plan A, isn't it? You prove the theory of the Lovebank...you do lose your feelings, but you don't lose your belief. Same with Plan B...this is more to say, "Here is what life is like without your family...here is the cost of not saving the marriage" and you stay with the belief that both of your feelings will return after Plan B.

Don't lose the belief or you lose the reason to save your marriage.

Adrian...expose to OM's parents, his work and her work, all at the same time (okay, call OM's parents first) because all three are critical and you might already be through stuff if you had already done this. Bite the bullet. Make it work.

Please don't say what you won't do (take her back if she runs off with OM) until you cross that river. You probably didn't think you'd be Plan Aing a WW, did you? Most of us said our beliefs of what we'd do in a given situation and then received the situation and acted differently. Leave the future there...keep present. Be strong in your belief.

I also believe that this Lovebank idea (which is more literature than Harley's under different names) is even more important than marriage (please don't faint)...see I believe that this thing we do...rely on our feelings to tell us our beliefs (which is backwards) that we don't love anymore, etc., is what keeps us from God. We can't help but see him like us, not loving us, losing his love, for our terrible choices. That belief must be preserved and the feelings return as a direct result of the belief.

They last.

No beginning or end to God's love. Matters. Lasts. So does ours, if we preserve our belief.

That's why you can do this, Adrian. You know feelings return, they do...from past memories, present actions...future could be the same. You just have to get the other feelings out of the way. That is why recovery can be just as painful as Plan A, even moreso...but worth it. So very worth it.

LA

You haven’t discouraged me. You’ve simply said what I’ve been afraid to say. I am trying to be optimistic and look at the whole thing in a positive way. But the optimism is limited by the realism. Sure, you can look at the glass and say it’s half full but the truth is that the other half is gone. So once it’s gone... it’s gone. You can’t bring it back and you can’t fool yourself. You have to accept the reality. That is what I am doing know. Accept that things are not going to be the same regardless of what is going to happen: R or D. I feel sorry for our DDs.

Perhaps I shouldn’t have posted today since I had a few beers last night…

This is something I am afraid of. I am afraid that I would be the one experiencing the life without my family. I am afraid that she would not leave the house if I switch to plan B but she would go for legal separation and she’ll get the kids. And I’ll be alone.

adrianc,

If you remember where I am, I am just a couple of steps in front of you. If you lift up your gaze you will probably see my footsteps. I have been exactly where you are now just an instant ago. I went there and I came out. The simple fact is, as LA said, something has gotten you to this point. You may not remember or recognize what that was but it got you here nevertheless. If you have no other comfort, just remember there is safety in numbers. Look at all the people who have made the decision to R and have done so successfully. You see, I don't believe in the theory that W and WW are two different people. I got confused by that but finally got to the point where I could not accept it as truth. W is still there somewhere. You both just need to find her. Seriously - don't post any more today. Don't talk to anyone today. Go distract yourself somehow. Go spend time with DD's. Go back and find your happy thought. Sleep this one off and look at it again tomorrow.

adrianc; my heart goes out to you. It's a painful place to be. God Bless your efforts, your marriage and your children.

Can I toss in a question? What are you doing to win her heart back, and help her remember why she loves you? I see on your earlier thread that you've eliminated LBs. Congratulations, that's a huge step; but it seems to me that eliminating LBs is like stopping hitting her thumb with a hammer. Good thing to do, but not likely to help her remember why she loves you. So what else are you doing to help her remember her love?

Clearly your pain is intense. Justifiably. But I think a big part of the challenge is to keep from splashing your pain around and worsening the damage she and OM have imposed on the relationship. Instead - difficult as it is to do - work on those problems in you that your WW would most like to see improved.

I hear about your Plan A, and congrats on that. But this goes deeper than that. What fundamentally has been the problem? Somehow you lost your claim on her heart, and you need to win it back. Looks to me as if your recent posts are - understandably - mostly about you, e.g. how you can deal with the pain, what tactics you can do to improve the situation etc. But maybe at this point you can also make a really big push in a wife-centered approach. E.g. try to put yourself in your WW's head (imagine it without the fog) and really understand what she needs from you in order for her to love you as before.

What I'm wondering is: are there some keys to her heart that you can reach for. Some fundamental things you can change in yourself that will help her to come around. And some actions you can take to make those self-changes.

In my case I dedicated myself to fixing those things that my WW objected to. Really dedicated myself. Biiiig project. And not just talk; talk is cheap. Actions. I think those actions and my dedication to her may have contributed to her change of heart. Not sure if we're out of the woods yet, but there has been a major change of direction in favor of the marriage.

No guarantees; you can do exactly what she needs, and it still may not work. But you will be doing a good thing regardless. Meeting all your wife's needs is a worthy goal in itself.

One other thought; Looks to me like you found out early January; so that's something like 7 weeks ago. Long painful weeks, but just in terms of time, 7 weeks isn't really that long as these things go. Are you sure you need to be thinking Plan B so soon? It's subjective for sure, and each case is different. But I believe most go considerably longer before going to Plan B. For us, the turning point (I THINK it was the turning point) came about 5 months after Dday. 5 Long Painful months. Never did do a Plan B, just an unintentional 180. Anyway - assuming we're past the crisis - it was worth all that pain.

You can do this. Hang in there. You can do it. God Bless.

Going back a post here. Yes you have to accept reality. What you once believed is gone forever. I am glad you have finally realized that. I have to disagree with you on one point though. You said optimism is limited by realism. That is not optimism - that is pessimism. Optimism knows no limits and reality is what you choose to make it.

There are three kinds of people: 1) those that say the glass is half full 2) those that say the glass is half empty and 3) those that say the glass might be half full but you might as well pour it out because it will be empty soon enough anyway. I am guessing that right now you fall in the last category.

The marriage and the life that you had is certainly over. That is not a bad thing because at least one of the two of you never really thought it was all that good to begin with. The recovery process gives you a second chance. It gives you an opportunity to right all the wrongs to have a better and stronger love than you ever had before. I have no idea what R will be but I don't fear it any more. What I fear is how I will feel about myself if I don't give it the opportunity. I can get a D any time but I can only R right now. That is reality.

I am glad you are starting to ask yourself some of these questions because you needed to sooner or later.

You know my weakness for drawing analogies from movies. I won't stop now. Please promise me you will do me a huge favor. Please go out today and rent or by two movies. Those movies are "Groundhog Day" with Bill Murray and "Rocky III" (the one where Rocky fights Mr. T). Sit in a room by yourself with no distractions and watch those movies in the order I mentioned them. I don't much care for Bill Murray but I could watch Groundhog Day every single day because I learn so much from it each and every time I watch it. Watch that movie and think about what is really happening to that guy because, right now, you in your situation are stuck in Groundhog Day. Watch the evolution of the thought process and how he learns to look at it differently. Basically applies the stages of grief, reaches acceptance and becomes a much better person in the process. Groundhog day is an excellent metaphor for the catharsis you and I are experiencing. When he finally sets his sights on Andy McDowell, he first tries everything he can to pretend to be something he thinks she wants. He gets closer and closer with each day but never achieves the goal. He finally gives up and just becomes a better him and, as a result, finally gets what it was he wanted to begin with. A great metaphor for Plan A.

Okay for the second movie - Rocky III. This is also an excellent metaphor for the A and its effect on us. Rocky (i.e. you) is comfortable, has it all, accomplished his goals and, with one knockout blow loses everything. All that he believed in and held dear is taken from him in an instant (D-day). He grieves. He gives up. Then, he gets help. He is still filled with doubt but he listens to that help. With that help, he reinvents himself. He changes physically and emotionally (Plan A). He trains himself to fight in ways he never knew before. He wants back what he lost but for the right reasons this time. He is not the same person he was before. He gets the rematch and he gets pounded and bloodied but he is so strong now that nothing Mr. T can throw at him even fazes him. Well, I won't spoil the ending for you. Watch that movie. Eye of the tiger, man - eye of the tiger.

Go and watch those movies and then let me know how you "feel".

adrianc,

I am going to give you one more thing to think about. I do think there is merit to the concept of the love bank. It just seems too reasonable. I was rereading my own thread yesterday looking for something and I ran across a post that made me think of you. WW, DD's and I went on vacation to Mexico in December to visit her family. That was an eye-opening experience for me. While there I went through some thought processes i am not too proud of so won't get into here but the short of it was that I realized that I no longer loved my wife. What was good about that was that it lifted a huge weight off my shoulders. Since I no longer loved her, shw could no longer hurt me in any fashion. I relished in this new found knowledge of no love for about a full three weeks. I had not felt that good in a long time. Until....

What happened was she did something (made contact) and it made me mad. This was very puzzling. If I did not love her, why should I care? I struggled with this for about a day and then my rose colored glasses just shattered. I realized in the space of a few seconds that I had never stopped loving or caring for WW. What I had done was raise a protective barrier. By telling myself I no longer loved her, I would be protected. Unfortunately it was a lie only it was such a convincing lie I couldn't recognize it at the time. We human beings have an amazing ability to protect ourselves. We have selective memory to block out bad experiences. I can't remember a full three years of my young life when my stepfather was around. Simply gone. My brain did that to protect me. WS's protect themselves by rewriting history - by recreating memories into a form that justifies their actions in their minds.

I am not saying you no longer care for WW. Only you know that. I am saying don't let yourself be fooled by your feelings. Love is not a feeling. Being "in love" is a feeling. I saw a guy who was pulling out all the stops to try to save a marriage one day and then decide it was all over the next. Falling out of love with WW doesn't happen like that. It isn't a light switch. Give yourself some time to think this through. It is probably good that you reevaluate your motives for R. A lot has happened to you in the last few weeks. At first I wanted R to try to keep from losing something. Now I understand that I had already lost it and I also never want it back. I want that new unknown future with the woman I have never stopped loving if there is a way on God's green earth to achieve it. I am not afraid of the unknown or maybe I am but just don't care. My motives for R are not what they were in the beginning but now I want it more than ever because I am not trying to create a fantasy.

Anyway, that was my experience with not loving my WW. It was a great three weeks, while it lasted. I thought it might give you something to think about.

Now go watch Rocky.

traicionado,

I didn't have a chance to read your last two posts. I have prepared my post before I saw yours.

Here it is:

Last night was BAD.

The regular plan was that my in-laws would live with us for 6 months and then my parents would move with us. All of this for helping us with the kids. My parents are currently living with my brother (looking after their kids). My brother wanted to know when my in-laws are going to leave so he knew when his MIL should arrive from overseas. So I had to have a conversation with my WW last night about what would happen when her parents leave. I told her that my intensions were to bring my parents. That was similar to hitting her with a hammer in her head. She became nervous, started to raise her voice and told me something like:
• I wanted to send our younger daughter to Romania but apparently you cannot live with her (she said in a sarcastic way) so if she doesn’t go and you parents are going to move here then I’ll leave this house! (Could this be considered as plan B?)
• If our younger daughter will not leave then I’ll quit my job, take both girls and leave back home forever. (That doesn’t make any sense…)
• I am not going to sacrifice myself for the girls.
• I am not happy with this life. I love the OM.
• Why do you want me to go to Romania? Do you want to keep me away from the OM? (Like she can’t talk on the phone, email him, chat with him on MSN, etc.)

Anyways, I was very calm and asked her to talk to me with respect, the way people talk to each other. I asked her for how long she wanted to send our younger daughter to Romania but she didn’t have an answer for that.

I feel like I am going to go crazy but I believe she is still surrounded by the fog. Lots of it. Therefore I am not taking her statements literally. But I have to find a way to deal with our younger daughter scenario. She’s 1year and 8 months… I wouldn’t take her to day care just yet. May be I should send her to Romania for 6 months. That would give me and my WW more time to spend together.

hang tight. I can't post right now but I have some ideas. If it gets to plan B, WW may have just given you the golden key. Give me a few hours to get free.

Dude, have you talked to a lawyer yet?

dewt is right. You do need legal advice. I have to make this quick but I don't see any benefit right now for you to send DD to Romania. There will be no benefit for you and WW to be alone and, in case of a legal custody issue, could blow up in your face.

Personally I liked what WW said about leaving the house under certain conditions. If you can make a case for abandonment, that would certainly be in your favor. This is what I was alluding to earlier when I suggested you hold off a bit and see if you can force her hand. I think right now you two are playing Russian Roulette. Sooner or later, WW will suffer a breakdown or simply leave.

On the other hand, get a lawyer's advice on whether there would be any advantage ofr you to have DD in Romania. If she is with MIL, however, I don't see how that helps you.

adrianc: your posters here are telling you really amazing things that can change your life for the better. Hang in there, and please consider doing what they suggest. I really like the movie suggestions and what those movies symbolize. Deep inside - maybe out of sight for now - you probably really want to spend your life with your W. You can change your relationship and renew it, and have a lifetime of love with her. It will require change on your part.

Don't give up. Keep plugging, and please continue considering the ideas they send to you. They are only doing it for you; no other motive than to help a fellow human being.

adrianc,

A quick question: can you tell me why WW has such heartburn with your mother? I know you love your mother but please be as honest as you possibly can. I have a reason for asking but I will wait to hear from you.

I now have time to read through your post. Yesterday was really bad for me so I was not thinking too clearly most of the evening. No problems with WW. In fact, she was wonderful in my time of need. Gotta love her.

Anyway, now reading your post. I want to make a comment that may seem critical but I think it just comes from confusion about your living situation. Also maybe Romanian customs I just don't understand. I admit I don't exactly remember how old your DD's are but it seems like they are something like 1 and 3. Toddlers not in preschool. I can't help but be struck by the fact that neither you nor WW seem to be the parents of your two girls. I admit there are advantages of family over daycare but only to a point. At least with daycare, it forces you and WW to take on the primary parenting responsibilities, creates problems that the two of you can work out together, etc. because you are a family unit. I am not trying to be judgemental but I think you should reconsider the high level of involvement these grandparents have in your family. That is part of the key - your family - you, WW, DD1 and DD2. That is the family. Just think about that. I was shocked when you said that after MIL's visa runs out that Mom will jump right in to fill the vacancy. If you were not having marital problems, I would look for other alternatives but, based on your post and, if you are truly considering Plan B or Plan D (possibly even Plan A still), Mom may be of some use. We'll see.

Now one thing you wrote confused me.



I am assuming that WW made this statement. Did you make a typo? Did you really mean "without her"?

If I assume that you really intended to say "without", then this is a scary statement WW made. Nature's tendency is that a mother protects her children under any circumstances. Even with us screwed up humans, that is still fundamental to the nature of most women. So, WW is saying she has no desire to have DD2 around but recognizes your need that DD2 stay.

So if DD2 does not go, WW takes both girls and goes to Romania. Presumably to dump them with MIL so she has her freedom. This is one point you need to talk to the lawyer about. Do your kids have passports? If so, who has possession of them? Does Canadian law require both parents to consent before a passport can be issued? You may be able to block her from taking them out of the country by simple inaction. Under Canadian law and Romanian law, can children travel on a parent's passport? That used to be possible but very few countries allow it any more.

"I am not going to sacrifice myself for my girls." Well, my definition of a mother and hers are juxtaposed. Mothers do sacrifice themselves for their children.

"Do you want to keep me away from the OM?" Why yes - absolutely. Answer that one honestly.

I would not send DD2 away. There is nothing wrong with daycare. Check it out, make sure it allows "surprise visits" so you can go check on DD2 any time you wish, has good references, etc. At least one of the two of you needs to begin to take on primary parental responsibility for your children. If you send DD2 to Romania, my fear is that will greatly complicate potential custody issues. If nothing else, by you sending DD2 to Romania, you have effectively abandoned her yourself. International travel with minor children is quite complicated and she may be able to block you from taking DD's back to Canada later. You really need to understand what laws will apply and what your rights would be. The way it would works in the USA, for example, is that if your wife has a Romanian passport and children have US passports, WW can get on a plane with them without your written consent (notarized). If WW has a US passport and so do DD's, WW needs no consent to travel. Just check up on both Canadian and Romanian law.

WW's comments don't surprise me that much. I have seen this with my WW too. All ready to abandon girls for new life with OM living happily everafter riding off into the sunset. Something is broken inside your WW. That primal instinct of a mother protecting her cubs just isn't there. It is actually a potential opportunity for you to get WW to attempt R but it is a double-edged sword. She might rewrite her plans and decide to leave you and fight for custody (which she would likely win). I say sit on this one just a bit longer and see where it looks like it is heading. If WW does leave and takes girls, file a restraining order to not allow her to take kids out of the country. That will put a serious cramp in her style. I would even tell her that if she makes the threat (in a calm way of course). Let her know that, if she takes the kids, she will be stuck with the kids and not too far awy from you so that you can have visitation. I promise you that is not acceptable to her.

I am going to go ahead and talk about your Mom. If Mom and WW have no real bad history, I suspect that WW's concern would be that you are bringing in an enemy spy. It is easy for her to continue her A with MIL but would be much harder with Mom because Mom is completely on your side and will watch WW like a hawk. If Mom coming really will be the straw that breaks this camel's back and causes WW to leave, I think that is a great Plan B option. It gives you daycare, keeps you as primary parent, WW abandons DD's which will be beneficial for you in a custody battle and WW will have to face reality and lose the fantasy. The question will then become (and you already raised it) will you ever take her back? Don't say "no" just yet. Decide that only when and if that time ever comes.

Your WW, for whatever reason, does not see herself as mother to her children. They are an inconvenience. She does not have to care for them and she ignores them when she is home. That is what I get from your posts anyway. She has a very serious problem and really needs IC.

Well, that is about all I have. I was serious about those movies. Did you watch them?

traicionado,

I have been on the road today. I just came back home and read your post. No talk to WW today at all.

I have seen Groundhog Day at least 25 times so far. Rocky III is also a movie that I’ve seen several times. Only thinking of these movies made me feel better. I just don’t find in me the strength that Bill Murray or Stallone had it. I just can’t find it anymore. I am simply exhausted.


I meant “without her”.

I can tell you that my DDs will not leave this country without my consent. I will double check, but to my knowledge my WW can’t travel with DDs if she doesn’t have my written approval. The DDs have only Canadian passports and they are with me. I am going to put them in a safe place. They do have Romanian citizenships but no Romanian passports. Let’s say the girls will travel to Romania. If I go after them over there then everything will be dealt under the Romanian law since we’re all Romanian citizens. Unfortunately I have no understanding about what the law says over there; therefore I will avoid this option. I want both DDs here with me.

The relation between my Mom and my WW has always been good. My WW got pissed off when she found out that I told my parents about her A. “You made a mistake by telling them!” she said back in January. There were some emails my father sent to my WW asking her to end her A and come back home. My WW was not happy with my parents’ involvement. But again, everything between them degenerated after my WW told me about the A and my parents found out.

I was told by a lawyer that my chances to get custody are slim to none. The law in Canada tends to give the children to their mother. Most likely will be a shared custody, kids will stay with her and I’ll pay for child support. I will talk to another lawyer for a second opinion and also ask about traveling with minors as well.

Right now, my WW has absolutely now intention about any kind of counseling. She keeps telling me that she will not discuss her problems with a stranger. I tried to explain her that the stranger is a professional and this is what he does for a living and he can help her. No success.

By saying what she said to me last night, my WW showed me only disrespect. Lots of it. But I can say that I am very happy with the way I handled the situation. I didn’t show her any disrespect and I was very calm. I listened to whatever she had to say and respectfully answered and stated my opinion even though she often rudely interrupted me. I cannot believe I was able to take so much from her in 5 minutes. Last year I would’ve had a different reaction. But not anymore.

Since I was on the road today, I had lots of time to think about my future. About my future without her. This is an option and I can’t ignore it. It seems unreal for me to have a life without her, but if it will come to that I am not sure how I’ll handle it, especially if she’ll get the DDs.

Okay I agree about the travel. I am so sorry that WW got upset somebody found out about her A. What on earth where you thinking? That was supposed to be a secret!

Did you call OM's parents? If not, why not.

Okay I am leaning toward bringing Mom across but is there any way you can leave Dad at home? Or doesn't Mom trust him if he is left alone?

I knwo that could represent a hardship for them but, to be honest, I have never been happy about that fact that FIL has been along for the ride. I can't go into too much detail right now but he is a fifth wheel in your current situation IMO and Dad will not be that much better. Just give it some thought.

I was just thinking of this: according to SAA I shouldn't take literally or personally what my WW tells me because she is a drug addict. If I think this way than she does care about DDs even though she now sees them as an inconvenience…

Use your own analogy. Would you let a cocaine-addicted mother care for her children believing that she would protect them first and feed her habit second? Don't think so.

I agree that what WW says may not be true. I think I have been trying to convince you of that for some time. But your logic is convoluted. What you are saying is: if red is not green and blue is not green, then red must be blue.

That is a big leap of faith you are taking. Be sure you have a safety net.

If you believe that WW loves her kids, you have to create a situation where she has to make a moral choice. She has to be in a position where she either has OM or the kids but not both. That can happen in Plan A and it can happen in Plan B but will not likely happen in Plan D as you have already surmised.

What I have been tryig to get to over the last few posts is to start thinking about how you can create this problem for her because right now she "is having her cake and eating it too". You have not yet really put her in a position where she has to make a clear choice. You may not be able to. Don't know. But that is what you should give some thought to. Listen to her. She is dropping hints.

YES!!!!!!!

adrianc,

I had the movie theme on my mind yesterday and I thought about this when you mentioned that you might send kids to Romania so you and WW could have some time alone together. Unfortunately in my difficulties yesterday it escaped my mind.

Before you plan to spend any time alone with WW, go watch the movie "The War of the Roses" with Michael Douglas. I predict that will be you and WW within a week. Just remember "but I've got more square footage!".

Sorry – I laugh every time I think about that. Thought you might too.

I have seen "The War Of The Roses" a long time ago and I can't remember much of it. I only know that the married couple tried everything to get each other out of the house. In my case, I believe it's simple. Just bring my parents over and that's it. She said she would leave.

This morning I woke up with this idea in my mind: She has a plan. She is going to wait until her parents take off and then she would leave. She doesn't want to do this right now because she is afarid that something bad might happen to her parents (their health is not so good and of course, according to my WW, it's my fault).

Do I want her to leave? Forever? One second I do, next second I don't. I don't know what I want anymore.

Is there anything I can do to prevent this? Doesn't look like I have options.

One more thing: I know I've asked this before but should I call her? I might sound like an idiot because everybody told me not to call her. But I am looking at this talking during the day over the phone differently now. Last time I spoke with her she complained about the fact that we came home and didn't talk almost at all. Maybe talking about anything is one of her EN right now. If that is true, me not calling her might be taken as a LB which is to be avoided. One the other hand she's not calling me either.
Thoughts?

A large part of the advice about not talking to her was mostly to do with you. I just wanted you to stop feeding your paranoia. If you feel that talking over the phone with WW may be the only way you can communicate with her, there is no real problem doing that. I would recommend that you make some ground rules. Tell her that you will may call her some days but not necessarily every day but that you will do it at a set time (plus or minus a few minutes). You do not want her to think you will call at any random time because you don't want her to think you are checking up on her. That will help both of you. I would really prefer that the two of you set aside a certain time in the evening or else in the early morning when kids are sound asleep and you could talk face-to-face. You both agree not to talk about your situation. You talk about the family, kids, necessary communication at first but the A, the OM, R, D, etc. are off limits for the time being. You have been married a long time. I would think you could come to that agreement but, if you can only do that by phone, at least it is something. I think you need to have some established guidelines for your talks. If those go well, you will see the boundaries grow with time but - yes - you absolutely need to communicate. I still would rather you did it in person rather than by phone.

I don't agree with your assessment of waiting until IL's leave. It is a good theory but not that simple. Personally I think it will be harder on them back in Romania because they will feel so helpless. Maybe WW doesn't share my opinion. She is behaving selfishly so possibly that is her way of avoiding guilt.

What is the situation with OM and OMW right now.? Have you exposed to his parents? Are they still in divorce proceedings?

Your thread bounced over to a new page so I will go back later and see if you have some other posts there but I gave you some homework this morning about thinking how you can force WW to choose between DD's and OM.

Did she ever want to have those children? Was it a mutual decision or did you push it? I don't doubt WW thinking of leaving them for OM. WW's do stupid things. What I don't get is her behavior right now - in the house - it is just plain weird. She ignores those kids from what you say in your posts and that does not add up. If she hated those kids, she wouldn't still be in the house. I don't think it is the IL's keeping her there. She has destroyed everything else around her, why not send her parents to their graves for good measure? At least then she would not have to live with their knowing looks. No. Something is wrong with this picture. Does anybody have any ideas?

Oh, was the OM a family friend back in Romania? Did the IL's know him there?

This is what I am going to do. I will talk to her in person.

They are waiting for the paperwork from the lawyer. The OMW is planning to go to Romania for 1 month. I have no idea if this is a good or a bad thing if I look at the whole picture. I have not talked to the OM parents.

I guess bringing my parents over would make her leave without the kids. But again, she might come back afterwards and claim the kids.

What if I tell her that I believe is better if we separate for a while. She’ll do whatever she thinks is good for her, I will look after the kids and she will help me financially with that. If she decides to come back after a while then we’ll sit down and discuss. The only question is what am I going to do with my Ils? I don’t think they would be happy with me asking their daughter to leave the house. But I need them to look after the kids (my parents can’t move over very soon).

Yes she did. We both did. I have never pushed her for that because I didn’t have to. Maybe my posts somehow created not a true picture regarding her attitude towards the kids. She has days when she ignores everybody in the house and she has days when she is spending the time that she has with the kids. What’s really bothering her is the kids’ reaction to different situations. They would start crying, they would say “no” if you, let’s say, tell them to eat everything they have on their plates. When that happens she goes ballistic. For whatever reason she doesn’t seem to understand (or maybe she doesn’t want to understand) that we’re dealing with a 3 ½ and 1 ¾ year old girls. They are very young. All the kids have their reactions.

No, I met the OM here and we realized that I knew the OMW from back home but we weren’t in touch over there.

So far I have tried to stay focus on giving my WW a good plan A. But today, while I was out for lunch I remembered that she HAS BEEN with another man. Right now I feel that I cannot go over this and I am asking myself if what I am trying to do is worth it. What if she decides to work on R and I realize that I don’t want that anymore and call it quits? Then I become the betrayer (just like traiciondao said) and I don't want that.

Hey, Adrian...

Time for me to pop in with my stay present reminder.

Your mind wants to go anywhere but the present...because the present bites...really does...

Don't let it go into the future because your present thoughts will change that future...any what-ifs (see your post) will mess you up enough right now to give you the EXACT RESULT that you don't want in the future. Your brain does not know time...that's why it creeps like slime when there's pain, or gallops like a ride when there's joy.

You know this. Forbid yourself what-ifs and if-onlys (wistful remembrances that didn't really happen)...you can remind yourself of your real wife, with your real life before this. You will know in the future what your future is...don't bring it into today, with its entourage of emotions that always follow what-ifs...and leave you experiencing an experience you haven't had.

My vote is to call WW like you used to...with the drop off and pick ups and plans and steady, steady, as she goes, because conversation/attention were big for your wife. You buys connected in reality, not fantasy. You're her 12-year anchor...and she can't really replace you, btw...she is trying desperately to do what can't be done. You're irreplaceable, you know. KNOW THAT.

The rhythm of your conversations, the short back and forths, were like a cradle motion in your marriage. I believe this from your feeling amputated by not doing them (and vindicated, and I don't blame you); but it is not Plan A, not being true to your standards...it is reacting from your pain and your other old pattern of tit for tat. I understand. Been there, done that...and am praying you won't choose what I did.

You can honor what is honorable in your wife. That's not delusional...that's acknowleding that your wife isn't a mistake, but she makes many, terribly hurtful, damaging ones. That's the lighthouse in you for her...a way back to what she might believe she has already annihilated.

LA

Now why was it you haven't called OM's parents?

You know how I feel such rejection when promises are broken....

::::crossing my arms, tapping my right toe and looking stern::::

You want to be able to say to your grown daughters...I did everything I could to save our marriage...and I did.

LA

Those are definitely the big questions. And yes, it happens that the betrayed calls it quits. Does it make you a betrayer too? I suppose that depends on your own personal ethics. Reading your posts, it sounds to me like you are a man of great honor.

Plan B has many angles. One of purposes to Plan B is that it protects the betrayed (you) from the chaos of the affair. Yes, it's still hard. Yes, it still hurts. But you don't have to live with an affair going on under your nose, or other behaviours that cause you harm.

Harley recommends (in general) a 6 month plan A if the wayward is a woman. Then go to Plan B. But he also says if it really gets too much, then go to Plan B.

Another program for marriage saving has a thing kind of like Plan B and they call it 'Protection Phase'.

Protection - as in; protecting yourself from further harm (also protects the relationship's chance at recovery)

And Phase - as in; a part of a larger plan.

I can't stress enough how important that larger plan is.

Your emotions are all over the place. On MB, we refer to that as 'the rollercoaster'.

When you have a larger plan, you aren't desperately making plans every 2 hours to keep up with how you feel about things.

Do not trust your feelings.

Feelings change. The situations that create those feelings change. How we deal with them changes.

Make a larger plan based on what you know is right. Make decisions based on your integrity as a man.

People in affairs make decisions based on feelings. Clearly this is not a good way to plot our paths through life.

Take 'er easy,
John

Thank you everybody for the posts.

Right now I am very angry. I don't even know if posting under this level of anger is the best thing to do. But here it is:

I had a conversation in the car with my WW while we were going to buy groceries. I got to the point where I wanted to tell her that I wanted a divorce. She started by asking me why I said she disrespected me and my parents. She twisted it to make it sound that I was the one who disrespected them last year when we were waiting for her parents to show up.

I parked the car and talked for a while. She became nervous and started to raise her voice. She was fed up with me telling her that we had to have a plan for R. She said that we got nothing in common, never had. “We have nothing to discuss about. We’ve never talked about anything. We’ve never had any dreams.”
I said: “Don’t say that we’ve never had any dreams. We’ve dreamed about moving to Canada, we’ve dreamed about getting good jobs, we’ve dreamed about buying this house, we’ve dreamed about having our DDs. We had many dreams and they all came true.”

There was a lot more we discussed about but it was again a useless conversation that didn’t lead us anywhere.
I stepped out of the car, went inside the store to get something and when I came back she was gone! I looked around but no sign of her. I drove around the plaza but no sign. I drove back home and told my in-laws that their daughter was missing. Obviously they asked me what happened. I got somehow nervous and I told them that this was too much for me and I am fed up with her. I said: “She’s the one having an affair and it’s again my fault, etc, etc.”
She showed up (plaza is very close) and started YELLING at me big time: “I told you not to talk to my parents about our problem. You’re going to get them again high blood pressure, etc.”
I only said that I was worried for her and I didn’t know what to do.


She told me again that she will never apologize for what she did. She doesn’t believe that she made a mistake by having an affair. THIS IS THE LAST DROP FOR ME. I told her that before we go to R, if we’ll get to that point, we have to clarify what she believes a marriage is. She might have another A anytime if she feels no guilt for what she’s done.

I asked her to move out. She didn’t want to because she believes that by doing that she might loose the kids.

She said that she wanted to die. She no longer has any reasons to live for except for DDs. She told me a little story. When she was about our DD1’s age she saw her mom crying because of her father. My WW asked her mom to get a divorce. But her mom didn’t do it. Yesterday she told her mother that if our DDs will ever ask her to get a divorce she will kill herself.

I can say right now that I no longer have the will to go for R. I do not love this woman anymore. I have no feelings left for her. I don’t know who she is. I feel sorry for my W who ceased to exist back in November. I fell sorry for my kids who will not have the childhood that I wished them to have. I cannot continue anymore like this. I cannot go over that fact that she had/has an A. I will file for divorce.

adrianc,

There is nothing wrong with asking yourself those questions and having doubts. In fact, I think it is quite healthy. I still go back to my original premise that most of us start this path toward R for the wrong reason and failing to correct that may achieve a goal that we ultimately never truly wanted. There is nothing wrong with the goal in and of itself - saving a marriage - saving a family - not making your children pay their entire lives for the sins of their parents. The R goal is a good thing but it depends on both of you. Neither one can achieve it alone. You have good days and bad days. You may be having a good day and some random trigger will throw you to the depths of despair in an instant. The rollercoaster does stop but not nearly soon enough.

I would say about 4 weeks ago I was exactly you (except that I couldn't speak Romanian - or Canadian for that matter, eh). If you go and read my thread of about that time, you will see your own words there. I asked myself those questions and found my answers. You will find yours too and they may be different. Don't be afraid to ask. Now is when you need to know the answer - not later.

What is the worst thing about the A for you? Is it the fact that she was intimate with someone else? Is that mental image the worst part for you? Is it the betrayal of trust? I don't want to get back into my elephant analogy but just answer that question. What is the very worst thing?

Think about it differently. Don't think about it as WW had/has an A. Think about it as WW made/is making a mistake. I know this is hard for you to believe but she is human. She isn't really an alien.

When we are under stress or depressed, we lose patience. When my WW goes ballistic with the kids, I get right in her face, calm her down and explain that her behavior is not right and she is dealing with kids. Her behavior is normal and understandable within the context of her stress but it is not acceptable. I tell her to go take a time-out while I sort it out with the kids. Neither of you can allow this to spill over to the kids. You have to protect them. Do not talk to your wife in a DJ way. Just calm her down and give her time. I think it is also good for her because this is one of the things that I think can penetrate the fog.

Different subject. Bringing your parents over will not make WW leave. Only WW will decide what will make her leave. Nothing you can do will force her. I know what she said but just don't count on it. Her moving out and paying you child support doesn't sound realistic to me.

If OM is planning to go to Romania for one month, call his parents. When is he planning on going? If it is within the next week or so, call the parents after he boards the plane but still in the air. Let that be a pleasant surprise for his homecoming. I really don't recommend waiting. You really should make that call right now. I have no idea what time zone Romania is in but I am guessing it must be about 6 or 7 AM at the moment.

You don't think IL's would be happy with you asking WW to leave but they will be happy with you allowing her to continue the A? Your IL's happiness should be the least of your concerns. Stuff em. Your M is what is on the line. If they become casualties, just remember who the villain is and it is not you. In fact, you make life too easy for them. Make them unhappy and then maybe they will do something. Please don't say you are concerned for their feelings - they just don't count. (Okay - you got me mad with that one - I'm better now).

--------------------------------------------------

In reading through the last post while writing this, I see you posted again. You say you have no feelings any more for WW. That is not true. Right now you feel anger toward her. If you didn't love her at all, she would not make you angry. It is not that you have no feelings for her - it is that you are numb to your feelings for her. As dewt said, don't trust your feelings because they lie to you just as WW's do to her.

Okay so she reiterated her rewritten history. Nothing you haven't heard before. She provoked you - typical WW behavior. She made no mistake and will never apologize. That is what she believes but it is not true. She may never apologize or, if she does, it may be a LONG time in coming. If that is a requirement for you to continue toward R, stop that way of thinking. That will likely be one of the last things she ever does.

Can you please go back to the very beginning of that conversation in the car and explain better exactly how that started? Overall I think it has lots of positives. WW sounds like the pressure cooker is about to explode. Does WW know whya, whe she was 3 years old, that FIL made MIL cry? How does a 3 yr old ask her mom to divorce her dad? How does she even remember it? Talk to MIL about this. Find out what happened.

I have heard the suicide talks for months with my WW. Nothing unusual there but just keep an eye on her. Most people who threaten suicide won't actually do it. So you were having an argument and you stepped out of the car. Was it just - I've had enough I am going into the store?

Go back a day or so. You complained that you have not been communicating with WW. Here is an opportunity and you were talking. Problem is you had an agenda. Why are you wanting to ask for a divorce. Are you willing to lose DD's? What changed in the last day or so? You are tired, frustrated and angry. Ready to throw in the towel and end your suffering. I am sorry to tell you but it won't be that easy and your pain won't end over night. If going for D is what you want, you need to do that in calm. Don't do it over anger. Think it through calmly and rationally. If Plan A is not working for you, remember there is always Plan B. Plan B may involve things you feel are deal-breakers but don't worry about that until later because, right now, you can't know if they truly will be or not.

What do you THINK the situation is right now between WW and OM? Don't go checking her emails right now. Just guess. Are they full speed ahead? Are they on the rocks? Is she facing a crisis that the A may be ending? Something looks like it is changing in her behavior.



So she told MIL that she will never get a divorce? Think about that. Why does she not want a divorce?

Adrian,

We get it. You always have that choice at hand because you have been betrayed. I don't see the affair as the betrayal that got you incredibly anger, though.

She betrayed your dreams...and you trusted her with them...they require tender, accepting hands.

She betrayed you by blaming you for her actions; telling you that you did greater misdeeds than hers...and you feel like the only one left sane in your family because you are already fighting for your marriage and she's saying you destroyed it. She betrayed your own beliefs.

She betrayed you anew by not being aware and remorseful, of claiming the A isn't a mistake, a transgression. And she said she "never" would apologize. She is saying what she won't do...just like she did at the altar when she vowed not to be unfaithful. She was wrong then...and I believe, she's wrong now...and can't see it.

This is the hardest part of fog babble there is...why we constantly say it is...these are our spouses we have believed without question for years and years. Now we are not to believe them. That's too difficult for our brains to get around that drastic of a change. Stop believing her, Adrian. You can choose divorce, rightfully, without regret because you own your choices. But does she? No...right now, she is out to hurt you like she is hurting inside...hard, swift, fast...desperately getting the bees off her, frantic, and onto you.

She is not making choices to any code. You are.

I get that. And then she really betrayed harshly...she wants to die. You might hear that as full frontal blame, too...that death would be preferable to you; that you have made life too unbearable with your love and willingness to love in face of her deception...for her to bear.

All of this is the death throes of not her, but the A. Feels the same to you, doesn't it? Like killing your love...because you believe her, and take her truth as your own. It isn't. Put it down, it's dirty!!! Now, wash your hands.

She told you something deep within her...a belief she's had since she was four...that if you hurt, run. That's what she asked her mother...why don't you run away? Then her mom betrayed her by not running away. Instead of learning to bear her own pain, discomfort she felt for her mom, she made a conviction to run when she hurt. Guess what? For 12 years, she didn't hurt. Not deeply. Rejoice. That's amazing.

This is her issue, not yours. She gave you that remembrance, mixed up and in between flinging pain at you...and I believe she showed you that you once held her secrets and realizations...you were intimate, loving and connected. She is acting like a child because she feels that small, vulnerable, no control and no way to fix her tears, just like her mom's. She's running and has nowhere to go...so she feels like dying. All of her own doing, her own thing, because you are representing love to her, like her mom did for her dad. They are still together.

See? People can learn that pain does end a marriage or love...indifference does. When the tears stop, the anger doesn't come, nor the feeling of being disrespected and put down anymore...that's where love ends. In silence and indifference.

You know how you said that it bothers you that WW doesn't understand your DDs at this age, no self-control, sheer little persons being themselves? She might have never understood that...because she had to take care of the adults, their tears, their pain, their problems. She's been about control her whole life and it hasn't brought her safety or security that she craves like air. If she can't control, she can't be loved. It is the only thing she knows.

Can you look at her like your DDs? That exposed, vulnerable and innocent of herself? That's a lot to ask...too much, maybe. It's how you love your way back, though. WW are not wives...they are lost children feeding on fantasy and wannabe's...not real. True children are real. Adults aren't. Very difficult to see that.

And her demand you not discuss the "problem" (that is SO wayward) with her folks is still protecting them, though it seems protecting her. She hasn't stopped. How said. No wonder her mother and father act like they don't have influence, the timidity. Their disapproval for her actions is driving her emotions like a runaway train, along with you, loving anyway, wanting her when she is unwantable and out of control. After all, her A wasn't fixing you, was it?

Please do not apologize for telling inlaws anything. "I am not discussing a problem with them, WW. I am telling them that your affair is killing my love for you. I am sharing my pain with my family." See? They are your family, too.

She is lying to you just like she lied about the affair and contact/no contact.

This may be the last drop for you. You choose and we don't judge. Your marriage was betrayed...please don't believe in the lies she told tonight; only in the secret. Your choice.

Yelling is abusive, Adrian. There is nothing in Plan A that says you cannot say, "You are being abusive. Stop." and if she doesn't, "Leave this house now until you can stop being abusive." Strong, certain and stern. Without raising your voice. Whisper it.

Prayers to all of you...and thank you for posting...you really listen well!! Your heart has love, Adrian...maybe more than you want in it right now. I understand that. No judgment.

LA

LA,



I didn't have the confidence to say it out loud but that is my gut impression. This may be the time when the fruits of adrianc's labor are just begging to have effect. If that is true, it is the tme where he must be the strongest.

I will probably have to reread your post another 10 times. There is a lot there.

adrianc,

I had a thought when reading your post and it goes back to something I wrote in one of my threads. It was a thought I began but never finished. I always wanted to so I guess I will now. It would take me forever to find the actual quote but what I said was something like:

"do I wish someday that WW would apologize and ask for forgiveness? Abbolutely. Do I believe it will happen? Probably not."

What I wanted to say and should have said is:

"do I wish someday that WW would apologize and ask for forgiveness? Abbolutely. Do I believe it will happen? Probably not. Is it a requirement? Absolutely not."

You have been wronged. You want acknowledgement for that. You believe it is your right and in a fair and just world, it probably is. Unfortunately that premise is wrong. This is not a fair and just world. Nobody ever promised it would be.

Will you love WW only if she capitulates and asks for forgiveness? Love doesn't work that way. Would it make you feel better? Sure. Remember that you have been hurt very badly. You not only have to heal the marriage, you have to heal yourself. If WW does commit to recovery, your healing will eventually come but it will be the last thing to come. You just have to suck up the courage and strength to get there but it will happen. You will get through this one way or the other. Your WW holds the needle and thread and she can sew up your wound.

Don't place conditions on your acceptance of WW. Just love her. If you reach the point where you no longer can love her, walk away. You are trying to convince yourself that your love is gone but I don't believe it is. Your emotions betray you.

You are going through a very rough time. You can also get through this. You may need some nudges to do that but never forget that everything you need is within you. It always has been. Eye of the tiger.

I had a rough night. I came to work, read your posts. They helped me a lot. I’ve noticed that I was misunderstood here and there… I knew I shouldn’t have posted last night. I was too angry. I might go back later and clarify those things you’ve misunderstood.
But right now I have something important to post. My WW sent me two emails this morning (CC her parents as well). After reading the first one I realized that even now she’s lying because she had more contact in the past to weeks than the one she said she had. She is still lying even to her parents! The second email was again an old one that she sent me the day before the D day, telling me how unhappy she was, but I am not going to discuss about that one too. She just forwarded it to me so I can remember…

Here is the first one. She forwarded me an email she sent the OM on Feb 24th. She sarcastically said in the header of the forwarded email:

This is the CONTACT I had with the OM in the past two weeks. For this, you reproached me for lying to you!

OM

From this moment I am asking you to please give up any hopes that you will ever be with me. We can’t and we’ll never be together. You were right, I could never leave my home, get divorced, not because I don’t want to but because I don’t have the courage. This is me, a weak woman, who was never strong enough to stand tall and follow her dreams, to say what she had to say. The proof for this is that even now, I choose the easier way for me by “telling” you this in an email, instead of looking into your eyes and tell you the truth.

Forgive me for letting you hope for so long, I should’ve known me better and avoid your suffering.

Don’t think that something has happened to me within one day, nothing has, I’ve just realized that I was letting you hope in something that I could never do, and it didn’t make sense to extend this suffering, our suffering. Forgive me.

WW


Any thoughts about this? It seems like a NC letter to me. I called my WW after I read her emails but she didn’t pick up. I left her a message telling her to call me if she wanted to discuss. No call yet.
I don’t know what I want anymore.

adrianc,

You and I are in a similar sitch right now so I will stay away from advice specific to your case because I can offer little help at the moment. Translation: I am also drowning.

One concrete suggestion I will make is the following. This is a community of folks who convene to share common experiences and form common bonds. It is well and good that you are talking through your emotions and anger. What you are not doing is giving back to the community, i.e., posting to and giving advice to other members. You may feel that you are so wrecked that you cannot offer meaningful advice to others. Nothing is further from the truth. There are both altruistic and selfish motives to do so. Firstly, your role in this community is defined by give and take; you want to do both, not only be a taker. Secondly and here’s the best part: when you reach out to others, it helps you. I can give you advice by retaining an objectivity that I cannot reserve for myself. The other members here are the same. Start reading and posting to other member’s threads. Seek those threads in which you detect a kindred sprit and realize what you can offer. The payoff can be huge or you, for the member and the MB community.

Okay, I lied. I will offer you some specific advice: do NOT call WW!

This is not an NC letter. She is telling him not to hope only she wants him to keep hoping. For me the key is "nothing has changed". How should OM read that?

If you have any doubts, don't call her. You made the effort. She sees the missed call. Leave it alone for now and regroup.

I think there are some keys in this email - maybe a grain of truth. Might just be a missing piece of the puzzle or two. I commented just a few posts ago that I couldn't understand what is keeping WW in your house. Might be simple fear. I love the "follow your dreams". Why does that show up in almost every single affair? My WW even bought OM a birthday card that said exactly that - verbatum.

I think you should give up the idea of ever talking to WW. Just send her emails. What a wimp she is. I think it may be time to start giving some thought as to how you can figure out what is going on between WW and OM. Something is not sunshine and roses there.

I think your position is improving from the sounds of it. Be patient. Let it come to you. Calm yourself down. Get some energy back.

I don't read that as a no contact letter at all. Doesn't mention a thing about not having contact (which I believe might be a requisite, IMHO)...however...

Thank you for sharing it.

Know why?

Your WW's actions are textbook...but her words indicate a huge problem that is not new to her nor your marriage.

She DJ's OM all over the place...and calls it cherishing. Ohmygosh...

I'm gonna highlight, because come what may, Adrian, you can benefit in yourself and your life from really getting this DJ to its core....

"this moment I am asking you to please give up any hopes that you will ever be with me."

She asking another human to not feel. To change. To not listen to the information that is their hope. Childish and unreal.

"We can’t and we’ll never be together. You were right, I could never leave my home, get divorced, not because I don’t want to but because I don’t have the courage."

Here's where no contract doesn't come into play...that we can't/never be together as a legitimate couple doesn't mean we can't have contact; heck, as friends, we'll be fine and contact is good. Okay, she's not saying that exactly, but that is what she was saying at the beginning (DDay) and does not address in this letter at all.

She is seeing this in WS fashion--reversed. She believes she lacks the courage to be a fallen woman in public, with history. In order to leave her marriage to be with him, she would have to have the courage to not care what anyone else thought--her parents, friends, other relatives and the general public. She's can't do that. How she is regarded matters to her. So, it's not courage...it's like reasoning yourself out of suicide...the right thing to do sometimes is NOT doing, right?

All fog in this email...but all are to AP's anyway.

"This is me, a weak woman, who was never strong enough to stand tall and follow her dreams, to say what she had to say. The proof for this is that even now, I choose the easier way for me by “telling” you this in an email, instead of looking into your eyes and tell you the truth."

Here is where she pretends to admit she is one thing while portraying herself as another. Did you miss the usual thing where one AP says the other won't really leave the marriage? They encourage them to go back as a ploy to get them to commit to the affair. Nuts, huh? Big part of the fantasy is accepting fantasy in return for it...not coming within the 5 o'clock shadow of truth.

"Forgive me for letting you hope for so long, I should’ve known me better and avoid your suffering."

Again, she commands forgiveness from someone as if it is her belief that that is possible and takes blame for his suffering, denying him, again, his own feelings and responsibility...and forgiving herself for not having known herself better which intimates that she knows herself very well now. And she doesn't, Adrian. Fantasy begats fantasy feelings and beliefs. Not real. That's where all the inner turmoil comes from. If we could replace our reality with fantasy, then no turmoil, right? God didn't make us that way. Our real beliefs (the vows we took, our self images through others' eyes) begin dueling emotions with the fantasy ones. Now she's unhappy if she does and if she doesn't. What a mess she made. Her email the day before DDay was ridiculous. She was responsible for telling you her heart, emotions and mind your entire marriage. Especially since last August, Sept, Oct...these feelings don't begin the day before you're caught cheating. But you won'd know the truth for a long time because she won't know the truth until the fog clears and she can bear to look at the why of it.

"Don’t think that something has happened to me within one day, nothing has, I’ve just realized that I was letting you hope in something that I could never do, and it didn’t make sense to extend this suffering, our suffering. Forgive me."

Again..."I will tell you what to think and feel." How DJing is that!!! She's not an AP...she's his MOTHER. She allows him hope...not his doing. He has no responsibility so no control. He just has to do as told...this wears out really fast. And again the command...you have no choice.

Adrian...this is how she allows herself to belief. Control all or death. Honey, your coping skills had to be that you believed it was better to give her the fantasy of total control than to assert that there was a better way to have relationship.

Now I have the incredible desire to rewrite her email.

"this moment I am asking you to please give up any hopes that you will ever be with me. You are a child who doesn't know what is good for him. Listen to your mother--we can’t and we’ll never be together. Mourn me, curse fate, but not me, 'k? You were right, I could never leave my home. You know me better than myself because you listen and don't call me on my lies, neither to myself or to you. I love that about you. It's so real, isn't it?

I can't bring myself to divorce, not because I don’t want to but because I don’t have the courage. Something in me says that I am not the kind of woman who walks away from her children, her H or her self-respect. Most of all, I wouldn't be able to control all of those people. I would be down to just controlling you, and although I enjoy that, it isn't enough of a challenge.

This is me, a weak woman, who was never strong enough to stand tall and follow her dreams, to say what she had to say. I cannot stand tall and allow anyone to provide, respect or control themselves. I hate their choices and being responsible for their feelings...well, except yours, of course. You're easy. Kids, husband, inlaws...now there's are tought being responsible for, but I'm up for it.

The proof for this is that even now, I choose the easier way for me by “telling” you this in an email, instead of looking into your eyes and tell you the truth. I do not want to look in your eyes and acknowledge all the lies and fantasy between us. I am not strong to say I used you and am still using you. I am weak in truth and free with lies, they hide me from my pain. Why do I keep feeling it then?

Forgive me for letting you hope for so long, I should’ve known me better and avoid your suffering. I should have been a better mother. Good luck with the whole destroyed family yourself, btw.

Don’t think that something has happened to me within one day, nothing has, I’ve just realized that I was letting you hope in something that I could never do, and it didn’t make sense to extend this suffering, our suffering. Forgive me. I enjoy putting fantasy over reality, so I lied to you about getting high with you for the rest of our lives. I know you're dumb enough to have believed it, though you said with your mouth that you knew I wasn't courageous enough. Turns out you weren't either--your wife had to be pushed too far and made the decision for you. You're a crying woos who doesn't have anything of his own but the fantasy I gave you. I might be your fourth affair, but I wouldn't know that. Talk to you tomorrow.

I expect the forgiveness to be signed in triplicate on my desk tomorrow."

I believe ending the A and recoverying her marriage would save her life. I just do.

LA

P.S. Sorry I misunderstood things in your previous post. I try to be careful, but I've got my own filter. Do you see it in my makeup email? I really got some issues, huh, Adrian? Give back and fix'em for me, 'k?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

adrianc; I hope this finds you in a better frame of mind. Please try not to let things affect you so hugely short-term. It's a long-run job, and your attitude shouldn't swing 180 degrees from day to day.

A word of encouragement: it can get better. It has for many at MB - including me - and it can get better for you. My suggestion: stay in Plan A, try to stay calm, show her that you love her. Best wishes.

adrianc,

I know you are tired and hurt. Even though you can't make yourself believe it right now, that goes away. If LA's interpretation of WW's email is anything close to right, poor woman. When I get in your frame of mind, I go back and reread my marriage vows and remember that, for WW, this is a time of sickness. I do whatever it takes to keep me going Someone told me I don't have to honor my vows to WW because I didn't marry WW - I married W. That is just total BS and I am not talking about a betrayed spouse.

The reasons that initially started you on the path to R you may have realized were flawed. That does not mean that R is no longer a worthy goal. It just means that you should try to do it for the right reasons. The difficulty lies in the fact that everything you believed in has now been shown to be a lie. Love, honor, till death do we part, all of that has been taken away from you by the one you trusted most. On the other hand, you now have an opportunity before you to show both WW and yourself what true love really means.

Personally I don't have any sympathy for my WW and yet I hurt for her at the same time. It hurts me to the core to see her suffer. I wish I knew what to do to make it better for her. I don't believe running off with OM is that thing. Not because I don't believe he won't make her happy but because I believe it won't last and when it is all over she will be alone with nothing - no children, no family, no respect and no hope.

What it comes down to is the simple fact that WW made a mistake. We humans do that. Should our lives become null and void as a result? I choose not to believe so. The only true risk I see in the R process is that you may lose your love for WW along the road but inertia keeps you going. What I think you need to stop doing is saying you no longer have any feelings for WW. Love is not a feeling. If you will base your actions on whether you feel good about WW or not, then you have become just like her. She began her A based on her feelings. Is that what you want to be too?

What I tried to post that night when I shouldn’t have to was:

The OMW will fly back home for 1 month, not the OM.


While we discussed she kept asking me to end the conversation, get in the store, buy the stuff and come back. So, at one point of time I just stepped out and that was it.

The only reason I haven’t filed for divorce is DDs. I was looking at DD1 this morning when I took her to day care and I realized I would miss her so much if I’d get a divorce. I started crying when she hugged me before she got into the classroom.


I was about to check her emails the other day. I got her inbox on the screen but before I read anything I closed my eyes and gave up. I closed all applications and walked away from the computer. I am so happy I didn’t do it.
I believe that she is facing a crisis because the A is ending. I feel that way. The letter she sent to the OM told me for some reason that the A is getting to an end. It might not be that way if the real letter is the rewritten one (by LA) then she is just buying more time. I personally believe that she is trying to end her A and she might be now in the so-called withdrawal period. I wouldn’t know whether or not she had contact because I haven’t checked her emails. On top of that there might not be any emails but that doesn’t mean they haven’t had any contact. They can do it over the phone or MSN messenger.

Last night I did my best to be pleasant. I talked to her, finished the tile job, made plans for today to go to a particular store (with DDs and in-laws). I am going to drop off at lunch time my in-laws and DD2 to the mall. My WW asked me to call her after that and tell her what time and where exactly she is suppose to pick them up (she will leave work before me). I guess I will call her since I have a good reason.

What got me really angry is the fact that she got intimate with the OM. I was her first man in her life and it meant a lot to her when we did it for the first time. You might say that she was just a child back then being only 17 years old and she didn’t know what she was doing. But she loved me a lot and looked at me like I was everything for her. And now, knowing that she was able to give herself to the OM it’s killing me. She could’ve betrayed me in different ways but this one is the most painful for me. There are no pictures of them being together in my mind, I never saw them together, but the thought of that is unbearable. I don’t know if I’ll ever be able to over this. I am trying to look at it differently, to tell myself that it was just a game and they were simply two players, that the game is over and we’re back where we were before the A. But I am having a hard time believing that.
I am asking myself how do the people acting in movies do it? How can you passionately kiss someone just because the screenplay tells you to do it? How can you live watching your W acting in a movie and kissing AP? I don’t understand those people.

I like to believe that my WW will someday apologize to me. If we’ll ever go for R. then I believe IMO, that IT IS a requirement. Just because every time I made a mistake I apologized to her. I deserve the same.

Probably not. But if she acknowledges that what she’s done was wrong will help me heal and will help our R process.

ToddAC
Thank you for your post. I read other people’s posts as well. I did it several times, but I can’t focus on giving any advice. I don’t think I am in the position to give advices just yet. Maybe I’ll never be. I don’t know how to help myself to begin with. I might say stupid things and people might take them as good advices and I don’t want that.

This is definitely not what I want to be. I don’t want to be anything that my WW was (or still is) during her A. I wouldn’t lower myself to that level.

Do you think that WSs are not admitting their mistakes because they would look in the mirror and see themselves as losers? That they would agree that whatever they said was just one big fraud? That they would be ashamed of what they did and they lost the war? Maybe right now is just ambition driven by their personalities? They’ve gone too far and they might believe there’s no way back. I remember one email my WW sent to quite a few people after the A was exposed saying that she decided to take her life in her own hands. And now, she’s saying that she doesn’t have the courage to get a divorce. This is how she’s taking her life in her own hands? I feel sorry for her. I thought she was a special woman, a strong one, a W that you can rely on. Was I wrong? I hope not, but this is what I feel about her right now: WEAK woman.

I am not sure I believe she is yet to reach withdrawal because that will only come after NC is firmly established. But I do agree the A is in serious trouble. Too bad. Just hate to see that. Oh well....

I am glad you stayed away from the emails and I will tell you why. You and I both need to stay away from disinformation if we are to make good decisions. You said yourself that what she is saying is not likely the truth. Don't read her lies or it will distract you and confuse you. If you get caught up in what she is saying, you will be chasing lie after lie. LA is telling you the truth IMO. Better to listen to LA.

So the biggest loss for you was intimacy with the OM. That is your ego. That is a personal demon you will have to deal with. Don't take that particular one out on WW. She has enough to take ownership of. Your ego is your problem. You can do it.

There is no question that you will eventually have to heal whatever the outcome of this. If you are able to get WW directed to R, your healing will be an integral part of that. Have you ever asked yourself what you would do if she never admitted a mistake and apologized? I just don't think it is fair to place conditions on WW for your willingness to accept her back other than terminating the A. If you love her, it won't matter. As Ali McGraw said in Love Story: "love means never having to say you're sorry". You will heal. It will take a lot of time and WW will have a lot of responsibility in that. Just don't plan it. Let happen what will happen.

Don't try to tell yourself it was a game. It was never a game. It is serious business. People do those things in movies because they prostitue themselves for money IMO. They get plenty of takes to try it and look how many affairs result from it. How many Hollywood couple have long and successful and A free marriages? Don't look at movie stars as your role models. Not a good demographic.

You thought she was strong and have discovered she is weak. Maybe part of the problem is that WW has never been able to live up to your image of her. I don't know. Nobody knows and it doesn't really matter. She is weak, she made a mistake she can never take back. Some day she will look back on this with dread. She will hate herself and she will want you to hate her because that would be far easier for her to deal with.

I know if I had an A that I would be destroyed by my own guilt. It goes against everything I have ever believed. Humans have built-in defense mechanisms to protect us from danger and from ourselves. I have no clue what WW's coping strategy will be but she will definitely have one until she can finally come to the point where she can truly forgive herself. That may be a long time in coming too. It is definitely not an easy task.

I am glad you posted because I can start to hear you making some sense again. Have you called OM's parents? You keep dodging that question.

The firm NC will not be established by a NC letter. I believe that her email is the best she could/would do at least for now. Which is in LA’s opinion a non NC letter. I will live under the impression that they still talk. The OMW just called me and told me the OM told her that he doesn’t have contact with my WW anymore. Also, OMW asked OM to move out because she needs a H not a roommate. OMW believes that it is the end fro them. Nothing can be done anymore.

Don't get distracted by this but it just seems curious that OM moves out making it potentially that much easier for WW to continue A and yet she sends email. It is a bit confusing. It may be that WW is having an internal conflict. Poor OM. He is getting dumped by everybody.

Okay. Whatever happens to OM and OMW is not your concern. OM is not your problem. WW is your problem. Whether OM stays with marriage or goes with divorce has little bearing on the reality of the situation. Stay with Plan A and focus your attention on WW and don't worry about what OM does. Your WW will end the affair because she ultimately has no other alternative. Whether the two of you recover your marriage is all up to you right now.

Good morning, Adrian...

You know your wife. If this was an NC letter in your opinion, I'm behind you on it. I was venting myself. Did it do more harm than good for you?

"I will live under the impression that they still talk."

I'm hearing that as "I am choosing to believe that they still talk unless she shows me otherwise."

Have to point out...OMW..believes "that" is the end for them...like she isn't choosing to end the marriage. I admire you for staying conscious of your choices, Adrian. I'm very sorry for her.

Could be withdrawal..."I would like to talk for one half hour a week about our thoughts and feelings. Would Thursday nights be good for you?" And not allow yourself any other R talks...just sharing and exchanging. This worked well for us...H approached it like a trip to the dentist...and I drooled for it like ice cream...a year and a half later, we enjoy it and have expanded it.

Just thinking of you,

LA

It did more harm beacuse I want to believe it's a NC letter.<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I wish I had the gift of knowing how to express myself. Just like you, LA. The way you heard my statement was exactly what I was trying to say. Except that I couldn’t do it the way you did.

Are you suggesting me to ask her to sit down and discuss about R? She has not committed to that yet. And honestly I don’t know what to tell her. Except for the truth which is she’s hurting me (even though I thought a few weeks ago she couldn’t do that anymore).


Two days ago when he had that “nice” conversation I told her:
“When we are home we are just like two strangers in a hotel.”
She said: Speak for yourself. When I have to go home I feel like I am going to prison!”

That’s what she feels. I don’t want to hear that again from her. I agree that communicating with her is extremely important. Right now, we don’t talk while we are at work and when we get home we don’t talk while we are alone. The total time we speak in a day is about 10 min. That’s it! I couldn’t find a way to get her to spend some time with me because she avoids me and then blames me we don’t talk.

adrianc,

This is probably not unhealthy for you. It is a coping strategy that I adopted a couple of months ago and I still maintain. Let me explain how it has helped me.

1) The burden of proof is on WW. It is WW's responsibility to prove to me that the A is over and NC is in place.

2) If I assume it is going on, I have no paranoid desire to keep trying to find out if it is true because I already believe it.

The sad part is that it says you inherently mistrust WW but, given the circumstances, well....

I think once WW has truly committed to NC, then you need to give her the benefit of the doubt and change your thinking but, right now, this may be the best thing you can do for both of you. Just my opinion but it has done wonders for me.

She doesn’t see this as a responsibility. At least not now. She doesn’t believe she needs to prove me anything because she’s innocent (in her opinion).

Absolutely correct. That’s why I don’t check her emails anymore.

I went to Church today (just like any other day) and prayed to God to forgive WW and OM for they are sinners. I asked God to help me show my WW the light at the end of the tunnel. While I was there I felt so relaxed and, believe it or not, confident that the sun will rise again on my street.

I don't want to get into a discussion on theology but you just pressed my button. What you wrote sounds nice and noble but:

1) God didn't need the "heads up". All human beings are sinners. It is our nature. WW and OM being a subset of "all human beings" therefor makes them sinners too.

2) Depending on which brand of Christianity you happen to adhere to, praying that God forgive them may be a moot point.

3) Next time you go to church, don't pray to God to forgive them for their sins. That is the cowardly way. Instead, pray to God to give you the strength such that you can forgive WW and OM for their sins that have hurt you and your family. That, my friend, takes real courage.

Oh, and if you can some day forgive WW, don't necessarily tell her. Maybe later on in the R process this will be important for her but, for now (or when you can do it), keep it between you and God. Don't wear it on your lapel like a merit badge.

Okay. I am off my pulpit now.



Whether she believes it or not doesn't matter. You are right. At the moment she does not believe it. Some day she will and, until that day comes, just keep assuming that it is going on. Easier on the sanity.

We had a little discussion tonight. We went to a furniture store (with DDs and in-laws) and it was not bad. We talked a little bit, but she was very cold and nervous.
After we came home she told me (yelled at me):
"How many times do I have to tell you not to talk to my father about our problem? Did you look at him now? He's a mess. If something is going to happen to either him or my M I am going to hold you responsible for that!" Then she left the room not leaving me the opportunity to say something. After a while, she went to bad. I went upstairs and calmly told her:
"You can't control people. You can't control me. Please stop threatening me."
She goes (sarcastically): "If that is what you understood..."

What you always need to say in that situation IMO is:

"I am not the one who is having any affair. You are solely responsible for that. I never twisted your arm to have you cheat on me. If anyone gets hurt by that, you take ownership all by yourself. You can't blame others for the consequences of your actions. If anything happens to FIL, it all falls on your head."

Is that a DJ? Probably. I would drive that one point home anytime WW opens up that door. I think you missed an opportunity.

By the way, the sun did rise here today. It will probably will get to you in a few more hours - just in case you are up and still have any nagging doubts. I am watching it and it still appears to be on the right track. If it begins to deviate at all, I'll post you a heads up. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

She's babbling....tell her so. She isn't worried about her dad, she's worried about being exposed.

You should let her know that if she doesn't choose to be a WS, you won't need to expose.....so for her to STOP giving people sooo many reasons to expose. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

L.

DUDE!!! I lauged so hard when I read this, I spewed coffee all over my keyboard. And then I looked outside, and got to thinking... It's 8 am.... no sun!!! It's a little grey, so it must be around somewhere.... geez.... now I'm paranoid.

Every time I mention this she tells me: "What A, I no longer have an A!"

Morning, Adrian,

Are asking how to answer your wife? If you are...Orchid's reverse babble is the key...but you must use the Listen and Repeat to make it effective.

"I hear you are asking me how many times do you have to tell me not to talk to your father about your A, is that correct?"

"42." (Okay, this would be a DJ...but so fun!)

"I agree with you--your affair is a tremendous stress to your family. I totally understand that."

"What A? I no longer have an A!"

::look around the room, under a cushion::: "Really? Where did you put it?" (Okay, not RB, I don't think...still fun)

"I hear you asking what affair? The relationship you have with OM outside the boundary of marriage that betray your family with every action you take and every word you speak to him."

Adrian...how about MC? Is that viable now? And if not, how about IC for you? Another strong step you can take for you.

Please ask Orchid for help with the babble...you have a great sense of humor and could be using that now, for your sanity and to Plan A your wife. I'm sure she was attracted to you for it and that the rough times pre-A were aided by it. What do you think?

Dewt spewed. Just had to note that. LOL Does soulloss know? O&H..and paper towels for the keyboard.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I have the sun here now, no grey...neener neener.

LA

Let me know what lines you want interpreted and I'll try. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

As for Dewt spewing all over his keyboard....well....maybe that could mean his future posts c/b considered reverse babble. Maybe you could e-mail his responses. LOL!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Btw, sun is shining here but a bit cloudy. Look pretty outside. I best go enjoy it as soon as I get off this 'puter. LOL!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

L.

Orchid,
Please translate what my WW said to me. Thank you so much.

You said your FIL was healthy. Ask your FIL does he have a clue what your W is mad about so that you w/b responsible?

See it is ploy to redirect your attention to someone else so she isn't in the spotlight.

Once you get clearance from your FIL....and of course now he knows MORE of what the WS is doing....see if your FIL is willing to be added to YOUR support group and how far he is willing to lend his support. This is important.

Once empowered (whether he joins or support group or not), go back to the WS and let her know that the issue of responsiblity of your FIL's health has been resolved. From now on, the WS is responsbile for ALL the pain inflicted on ALL persons who know of the A. Then say, just thought you'd like to know so YOU realize your A is damaging to more than just the BS. Then walk away.....she must stew on that mudpie you have slung her way.

It is ok to fling stuff at the WS (in reverse babble style). IMHO, that is. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

L.

Nope, it means my future posts will be filled with coffee-coated goodness.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Orchid,

Thank you so much for your post.

I spoke with my FIL. Everything is OK as far as he’s concerned. It’s not me causing him to feel sick but I didn’t mention to my WW what you suggested. Not yet because today was a good day. We had BIL and his wife here for a barbecue. We made jokes, laughed, my WW served me my lunch (she actually took my plate and put everything I needed on it – something very unusual). It was a different day. WW was friendlier than before, even with BIL’s W! I had a strong desire to hold her in my arms but I didn’t do it.
We went to the mall and she got herself some clothes. She used the fitting room and I waited outside. She got out of the room to show me the clothes and asked me if I liked it. Just like in the old times. We left the store. I had a feeling of satisfaction. For the whole day she didn’t raise her voice at me and was not bad with the DDs.

A few weeks ago she told me the A is over. Then she forwarded me the email she sent to the OM. Her behavior changed a lot in the past few days, but we still don’t talk during the day while we are at work. I don’t call her, she doesn’t call me. Last night she left her cell phone for charging right beside the TV set. Before, I barely saw the cell phone. Should I ask her again if the A is over or just keep going on with plan A?

Don't ask her whether the affair is over. Ask me. Her answer will be "yes" whether it is over or not. Why would it even occur to you to ask that question? You are falling back into denial.

OK... but I feel like I will never know whether the A is over or not.

I don't think that is true. You will know and it will not be on a day that WW is having a good time and acting like her old self. It will be the day that WW crashes and burns. I am quite sure you will know it when it happens.

I may have said this before but I believe that WS's go through the grief process for the loss of the A just like we do after D-day. The advantage we have is that we started that journey long before they did. Go back and look at the stages of grief. Look at WW's behavior. Then try to correlate that behavior against to grief process. It could well be that WW is currently in denial. That is just a theory I have - no solid proof.

You will most definitely know when the A is finally over. Even if there is no contact, the A is not over. It is dying - but not quite dead yet. Even one email or phone call will rekindle that flame.

Just be patient. Things are going the right direction for you. Stay on Plan A.

LA,

Are you serious or was this just a freak coincidence? Did you realize that "42" is the ultimate answer to the ultimate question of life, the universe and everything"????

Simply amazing!

(BTW - I hope you read Douglas Adams)

I agree with Traic. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

You will know the A is over when you don't see or feel the WS in your presence. Now either your W is a great actress or the WS will have left the building.

What you will find out is the most WS' are NOT great actors. Their ability t/b good is like holding their breathe....they can't do it for long. If they do, their A suffers.....if they don't the BS knows. Either way, they are BUSTED!!!

So pray for a clear mind, calm heart and lots of patience.

Most WS' set themselves up for failure. It is the BS' job to let them. See it is important to understand you want to WS to die....as a WS.....the one you want back is your W NOT the WS.

See the difference?

Plan A your W and plan B the WS.

L.

Excuse me but that is "Traic", not "Triac" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

oops...sorry.... I fixed it.

L.

I was not really mad. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Just trying to find what little humor I can these days.

I did change my name from "traicionado" to "Eor". I think Eor is more appropriate and fits better with my level of self-esteem.

Eor,

U r 2 funny. I liked your name, just couldn't spell it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Now what do both names mean?

L.

Traicionado is Spanish for "betrayed"

Eor is the name of the blue donkey in Winnie the Pooh who always says "don't bother about me - nobody ever does".

That is nothing. You should see all the creative ways ToddAC has developed. Sometimes I think that is all that keeps him going. Well, at least I serve some useful purpose <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I am not sure if Eor is my alter-ego or my faltered-ego. Probably the latter.

Oh, and adrianc, sun headed your way once again today. I checked weather.com and it looks like there is a pretty strong upper level jet stream across the atlantic. Sun will likely encounter some stiff headwinds so, if it is a couple of minutes late, not to worry, it'll still get there <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

You're just like Douglas Adams was, Trac (I always left out the i on purpose)...he couldn't spell, either.

Eyeore

That's Christopher Robbins' friend.

I thought Thor would have been a better moniker. LOL

Guess that sounds like I did understanding throwing yourself at the ground and trying to miss, huh?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Great new signature, too.

Back to Adrian...

Remind me again why we aren't checking the cell phone when we have opportunity? Is it like the emails...just agree to know the A is active until it ain't?

Man, what willpower, Adrian! Whoa. Again...stronger than me. Way stronger. Nice to know you're not a self-punisher (okay, you are, but not so much)...

And thanks for the info about the bbq...now I'm hungry.

Orchid....you're like a wizard...one misspelling and whoosh! name changes. I'm stunned. I knew you were powerful...but...

LA

LA,

Cell phone? emails? What are these? You know what? If you haven’t mentioned about it I wouldn’t have remembered about them. Do you really think I am a self-punisher? I would call it more like self control.

My WW is about to have a nervous breakdown (unless she is the perfect actress; I know, though, that Orchid said that WS are NOT great actors). I spoke with her today and she started crying while she was telling me that she’ll be alone after her parents are going to leave.
Me: “You won’t be alone. I am here for you. Also, why do you want DD2 to go with your parents? You want DD2 to stay there till Christmas when we’ll fly there to bring her home? Aren’t you going to miss her?
My WW: “I guess I’ll miss her… But it’s going to be better for her than sending her to day care. She’s too young for that (1 year and 10months). Obviously, you’re not thinking of her, are you?”

I told her I was going to think about this. Now I am asking myself: What have I got to lose if I let DD2 go to Romania other than missing her for so long? In case of divorce WW will get the DDs anyways. I am trying to see the good side of the picture (if there is one). Having only DD1 with us will give us more time to spend together, which is what Harley suggests during the R time. I believe I will let DD2 go to Romania.

Today was not bad. First of all it was a beautifull sunny day and about +8 degrees Celsius - very nice compared with the previous days here in Toronto, Canada. We went out shopping in the morning (all of us) and in the afternoon just my WW and myself. We spoke in one day more than we spoke in the past 4 weeks!

Yes, you are not self-punishing in that way. I was projecting. I had no self-control over my snooping.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

What are these? ROFL

Hey, what happened to listen and repeat?

"I'll be all alone after my parents leave."

"I hear you're choosing to be alone after your parents leave."

Hand back her words, her fears. Stop stealing from her.

"I hear you're not sure if you'll miss DD2."

"I would prefer daycare and seeing my DD2 every day than sending her back home."

(Child seperation from primary caregivers is TRAUMATIC)

You want more time with your WS?

Yuck. Maybe you are self-punishing.

Let your wife feel her breakdown...only way to get to her core and why she chooses what she does. Every step you take to prevent her consequences for her actions sink in, you are cutting off your own feet and denying her wisdom.

Read some parenting books on seperation anxiety and how long it takes to get over it. Might be what is done a lot in your culture...was it done to you? Do you now adults that it was done to? Talk to them.

LA

Maybe this is just a cultural thing. More European. I don't know. I know English parents who send their 1st grade children off to England to boarding school.

Yes your DD would be at day care for a few hours each day but would be with her family the rest of the day. Think of how many things you are going to miss. How many new things she will learn to do and you will never know it.

Personally I could never agree with your decision but it is your decision. All I will say on the subject is send DD2 away if and only if it is what YOU want to do. Don't do it because WW says it is what you should do. Her parental instincts have not exactly been spot on lately. You could just as easily have answered WW and said that you were thinking ONLY of DD2 and that she needs her parents. Oh well, I'll stop now. It just makes me sad.

The other thing that I find interesting is that the two of you have apparently agreed to do something 9 months from now (i.e. fly to Romania for Christmas). That is kind of long-term thinking for a WW in an affair thinking about leaving. That is not a bad sign but don't start too many of those conversations yourself. Let her start them. Get her to say what the two of you are going to be doing a few weeks or a few months from now. Every time she starts talking about a future that involves you, note that.

Sending a child away for 9 1/2 months at age 1 and 10 months??? How is this a good thing?? Sorry but that blows my mind.

LA,

Thanks for the spelling correction. We did not bring any books with us when we moved to Saudi because they are usually confiscated. Also we tend to just learn to spell everything phonetically here. There is no wrong way to write an Arabic word in the English alphabet. Do you know how many ways there REALLY are to spell barbeque? I admit you have my curiosity up about Thor. Am I really that bad?

adrianc,

Just wanted to say I am proud of you about the cellphone. Nothing you are going to see on it is going to be of any benefit to you right now. You seem to have really settled down and gotten control of yourself and the situation. Don't mess that up. If you keep this up, you will reach the point where you won't even notice the cellphone is sitting there - and that is a wonderful feeling and probably not too far off.

Not to be a wet blanket here but I do want to warn you that you need to be aware of something. It sounds like things with WW are beginning to cool down. Your crises are becoming fewer and further apart. It is in that quiet time that your own thoughts will begin to haunt you. That is because you have been too busy worrying about WW to worry about you. Remember to take care of yourself. Get IC if you haven't and feel you need it. There are still a lot of things that you need to work out. One way or the other, you will have to heal eventually.

Doesn’t look like based on the last conversation I had with my WW. I told my WW that sending DD2 to Romania for 8 months might not be the best idea because we’ll be like two strangers for by then. She disagreed. While I was talking to her she was heading towards the door ignoring me. Just about before she stepped out of the room I asked her to stop and listened to me. I told her that she should show me some respect because it’s impolite to turn your back and leave the room when someone is talking to you. “What is this? High society and we have to follow some rules? Can’t you just walk behind me?” she said.
Anyways, needless to say how bad the conversation was.

She went downstairs. I found her on the sofa crying. I asked her what the problem was.
My WW: “I can’t take this anymore. Every day we have the same conversation.”
Me: “But you asked me today what the plans with DD2 are…”
My WW: “I can’t take this anymore. You decide whatever you want to do with DD2 and you can also take decisions for me too before I end up in the mental hospital.”

Is this the “withdrawal” type of behavior, is she mentally ill, is she playing games or is she having a nervous breakdown?

Is she mentally ill? Yes, by definition all WS's are mentally ill so forget about it.

Remember the stages of grief. That WW you saw at the barbeque was like a Dali painting. Pleasant to look at but weird.

This is WW beginning to crack. Good for you. Just remember that these are problems you can't just immediately "fix" for her. The solution is obvious to you but not to her. Don't try to talk things out all the time. Let her cry. If she will let you, hold her. Be supportive in any way she will allow. Just don't get mad.

Personally I like better traicionado than Eyeore.
I tried to translate this:
Is it something like “the husband betrayed by the soul mate… the one searching for love with all his soul”

How bad was that? I don’t speak Spanish but it’s somehow close to Romanian (who is also a Latin language).<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


Who said anything about me being mad? I was and I am calm.

Give it up. What it says is: the betrayed husband of "gemela"...and I still love her to the depths of my soul. gemela just happesn to be her screen name here on MB. Dont' read her posts BTW. It won't do either of us any good and if I learn you are reading her posts, I'll stop reading yours.

Where you calm or did you repress anger? I am not saying be calm. I am saying don't get mad. Period. If you find yourself start to get angry about anything - walk away.

Don't try to reason with WW when she breaks down. Just be patient and supportive. That she will remember.

Yes I watched an X-files once that was spoken a fair bit in Romanian albeit with subtitles. I covered up the subtitles and was surprised about how much I actually understood.

Pretty cool when that happens... Being from Quebec, I speak both English and French.

I went down to the Dominican Republic as part of a sales contest. I met a venezuelan girl who spoke neither. I learned to speak Spanish in like a week. Not very well mind you, but enough.

Then, when I came back, I found myself in a Portugese household trying to make a sale. The family launched into a private discussion (in portugese) and I picked up enough to prepare a counter their objections when they'd finished. It was a pretty neat experience.

I can still read Spanish and get the gist of it...

But now the question is "Should I?"

Why are WWs having this sadistic pleasure of hurting BSs? Why are they happy when bringing all those false accusations? Not that I am impressed with that anymore but I am trying to understand better what is going through their minds. I believe it would help me how to react to what WWs would eventually say next.

I know it seems that way, but I really don't believe that they really get pleasure from this. For the most part, I think that WS are some seriously hurting people. They aren't happy. They are miserable. Not only do they find themselves in an ugly situation, but they also have to live with the knowledge that they caused it. They will go to EXTREME legnths to avoid facing up to this, but deep in their hearts, they know the truth. It is a very bitter pill to swallow.

I wish you were right dewt.

I just remember one thing my WW told me last night. During our conversation at one point of time she told me that her life has changed after the DD2 was born. She said it was too much for her to handle. She said that staying home another one full year on maternity leave and lookingt after the DD2 with no help was too much (I disagree what she's saying about help but there is no point in going back to that now). It sounds to me that she had a post natal depression. What do you think?

Adrian,

I wouldn't attempt to diagnose your WW. What I would do is say how important you take her disclosure and make an important for a doctor to do that...maybe segue into MC that way. You do it because her health is important to you (stuff you tell her) and you take her pain very seriously.

Remember, you didn't make her stay home when it got too tough...she had choices, with or without you. That includes her belief that daycare is bad on babies...even if it was a joint belief you both held. She had choices...she chose. You don't need to point those out, just retain truth in your head. Then you can be a better listener, non-reactive. Few of us would be capable of being truly calm, Adrian, in your situation; I believe you.

When people bring up the past a lot, the same things, that to you are done and over, it means either they don't feel heard, believe you've prejudged their view, or you aren't giving them the reaction they desire.

This is seperate from the way WS rewrite marital history. Tough to tell the difference.

Key to what she felt that she stated was that she felt inadequate, insufficient to take care of both DD1 and DD2 after DD2 was born. There's a key. Her own thing.

Now, on to Eyeore...

You're welcome for the spelling correction. I am annoying that way.

Thor? Well, Long Tea Time of the Soul...he's not harsh, he's huge and naturally willful, and kind and funny as all get out. That's the way he seemed to me. Ancient beliefs in a modern day world. Just gettin' by. Tough adaptation; no revolution required.

See any similarities there, E?

And to dear dewt...

Did I mention that each time I see your name I hear the song, "Dewt, dewt, dewt lookin' out my back door." CCR. I'm old.

Where's soulloss? She writes great posts, also. And to my knowledge, doesn't spew.

LA

Post natal depression requires a professional. Don't even go there without a doctor. Can I ask?

1) Did she stay at home and take care of DD1 by herself?

2) If no, why did she do so with DD2?

3) If yes, was she dealing with both at the same time?

4) Did your or her parents ever come over to assist?

Do you think she might have some anger toward you in that maybe she blames you for not helping out more? There are lots of options here besides post natal depression.

I am going to diverge from LA here. Maybe there is a grain of truth worth exploring within yourself. Do you think she ever tried to get your attention with this during that time and maybe you just didn't hear her?

1)Yes she did (but she had help).
2)She did the same with DD2
3)She dealt with both at the same time but she wasn’t all by herself.
4)Yes, they did.



She has anger towards me. Period. Including for not helping her enough, which is not true IMO.
She might’ve tried to get my attention. I can’t say I didn’t hear her otherwise I would’ve done something. Maybe she did try.

LA,

Isn’t she bringing up the past trying to make this all about me just to get me in the center of attention so we won’t focus on her A? That I wasn't a good help wiht the kids?

It is true that WW's rewrite history - but they don't rewrite all of it. They only rewrite the part they need to. Now the issue you have is that you are treating it like a get out of jail free card. You don't have to take ownership of anything WW says because it must be contrived.

My gut feel is that there is something of the truth hidden inside what she said. My feel is that she is reaching out to you for help. Even if what she believes is false, perception is all that matters. There is no such thing as truth. Go back way early in your thread. We have already discussed all that.

Don't get defensive. Go back and reread the first part of SAA. The couple never communicated. Tha man worked his rear off thinking it was for the family and neglected the family in the process. Just go back and try to reexamine that period and see if she has some grounds for feeling the way she does.

And do you know what I would do? Even if I were 100% convinced she was wrong, I would still apologize and beg her forgiveness - but that is just me. If she feels pain from the past, let it heal. Gotta go...

I am in a big hurry and don't have time to explain this the way I would like. I can tomorrow. This is what I absolutely think you need to do ASAP.

Go to WW and tell her you have been thinking about what she said about her life after DD2's birth. Tell her you realize you were not as supportive as you should have been. Tell her you were doing what you thought was best for the family and did not realize you were hurting WW in the process. Ask her about what you could have done differently. Talk about it if she will let her. At the end of it, tell her you loved her and would never have done anything to hurt her. Apologize from the bottom of your heart and tell her that you hope some day she can forgive you for the wrong that you did her.

You just gotta trust me on this. There are a dozen reasons why you need to do this. I will explain tomorrow. This is a golden opportunity and you need training on how to handle these opportunities in the future. More tomorrow.

I did apologize for my mistakes already. I even did what Harley told me to do. I filled out LBs questionnaire pretending I was she and then asked her is she agreed. She did look at the form and agreed that what I wrote down was true. Basically, I wrote down what I believed I did wrong and was a LB for her.
That reminds me that she asked me last night if I still had that form. Unfortunately I don’t have it anymore. Made me pissed off but maybe I should take a blank one and fill it out again, even though she said that I would do it differently this time.

traicionado,
I am looking forward to reading your tomorrow’s post.