LA,

My Ex lives back home (overseas). I haven’t seen her in 7 years (from our wedding)! And, we broke up 14 years ago! I don’t think my W has a problem with her. She just uses her to find reasons to stay “friends” with the OM. Nothing can happen between my Ex and me. Yes, I do have her email address but if I want to, I can delete from my address book. Big deal! I have no feelings for her, anyway.

I also told my W that my relation with my Ex basically died before it actually really started and it’s never been at the same level as her relation with the OM so I didn’t think that she should’ve brought her into our conversation.

I didn’t believe that she would go for NC, but I had to show myself very enthusiastic. Maybe she really wants to go for NC but she finds it extremely hard.

During the conversation I told her about the 40 hours non talk marathon. She said “Why didn’t you call me? You just acted like always. In the past, I called the OM and asked him if his W called him that day. He said yes and I told him, well, my H didn’t.”
Since she is complaining for not calling her in the past, should I call her even after leaving her a message and not hearing a peep from her?

I know I shouldn’t focus on what she does or say. Everybody told me that. I am just trying to present you all the aspects of the events.

my first thought , as well, LA...


oooh....yup....keeping score...and the all-important justification to maintain contact...but more importantly, your w brought it up......also an easy example for her to pick out of a hat, but my guess is that there is underlying issue there....


Dewt and I just recently discussed this...if reconciliation ever occurs, there is an ex gf, now married and in the middle of a one-sided EA with Dewt , that has to go...

since we are not 'together', I cannot ask that of him at this time..(or rather, I feel I can't)...but in the future.....

please read that post in the 2nd link I sent you....it's really really good..

Adrian

I realize you are not in an inappropriate relationship with your ex. I do. It is the symbol, again, of deleting her email address and telling your wife, "You're right. I will no longer have a link to Ex. You're right."

See, it really isn't about being right, but actions of commitment. You willing to do exactly what you ask of her makes it reasonable, doable and more towards the clean slate she craves, see?

"it’s never been at the same level as her relation with the OM so I didn’t think that she should’ve brought her into our conversation." Judging what she brings into your conversation is a sure way to stop communication. Don't look to the intent she has for bringing it up. Find out if there is a tiny particle within it that needs to be addressed. Like sweeping up dust. Your own. And you own it. You are exampling your commitment, being supportive and eliminating a justification she can use. You're appreciating her for voicing her concerns, whether they are valid to you or not.

I hear you are upset and hurting. I get that. When she said she would not have contact...well, you know she has. Time to ask for a no contact letter. "I understand you may not feel like rebuilding our marriage with me right now. Since you have stated that you will not have any further contact with OM, I would like very much to believe you. I need a written statement verifying your desire to have no contact with OM."

You can say that you believe that no contact is the most important factor in deciding whether or not to commit to the marriage. That the influence of an affair partner (and you can say that) needs to be ended before she can hope to think clearly about her children and marriage.

This is only a mild DJ because if you both were in counseling, the counselor would advise this immediately. She doesn't have to commit to the marriage, just to no contact.

How are you doing on the legal end? I'm still thinking of Plan B if contact continues.

"3. She told me yesterday that I was too indoctrinated with the stupid things I have read on the forum. Having said that she won’t accept MB."

When she does this degrading of your beliefs, call her on it, calmly. "I hear you being disrespectful of my beliefs. Do you feel I tear down what you believe in? Is that why feel okay about doing it to me?"

I appreciate you posting all aspects. I think you're tired of us saying not to focus on her. I was sick of that, too. My mind would stick like burnt cheese to my WH. I remember. Her portraying you as the non-communicative one during the 40-hours is tough. You can tell us that because it hurt you, angered you and was unfair. We get that. Frustrating.

Fog does all those things. Drives a sane man nuts. I remember. Come here and know you're not nuts, Adrian. We believe in you.

LA

LA,

I have asked her for a contact letter but she totally refused to do it. “I would talk to him the way I have always done it. I am not going to follow the procedures you’ve read on the internet.”

There you go. She totally refuses to write him a letter.

About plan B. I know she won’t leave the house. If she tells me that, then what do I do?

Okay, Adrian...you said she would go no contact, but now I'm reading that she won't...she isn't. Maybe Trac, dewt, believer and soulloss can chime in on this, but I believe you'd have to state:

"I consider you actively in an affair as long as you have contact. I heard you say that you won't do a no contact letter so that I can believe you have ended the affair. What solution do you see to this? I cannot trust you because you've cheated on our marriage and lied to me. I cannot give you my trust until you have no contact and are transparent as to where you are and with evidence that you have not been in contact."

If she refuses and says you're just gonna have to trust her, then yes, it would be time to expose to her work. One last effort to stop the affair before Plan B and legal seperation. If you file for seperation, can you ask for an RO that makes it so she does have to leave the home?

I'm so sorry, Adrian. Each time she gives the reason as to what she isn't going to do because of you following external guides, I would answer "I hear you are disrespecting my beliefs. I need a no contact letter from you so that I can believe you are serious about no contact. I do not trust you nor your commitment to end your affair. It is what I believe. I choose what I believe. No one can control me but me. My choice."

Answering her at every step what you believe, you feel and you choose, and handing her back that you hear she believes that because you have educated yourself on relationships and affairs that that is why she won't follow the guidelines, would not allow her twisting fogese to back you into a corner.

You have to expose at her work, I believe. Nowhere else to do it. I'm so sorry. I know that letter will be difficult, but you have a lot of others to call on for help now, and to post your Plan B letter on for revisions.

You can do this. Remember, my H was in contact for three months after "breaking up" and wouldn't do a no contact letter...and still ended up choosing the marriage. It can happen. Have faith. Say your truth.

LA

Hey Adrian, I just got back from TO and I've got to settle in. I'll try to get back online this evening.

In the meantime, I just want to throw something in here. You mentioned that your wife said:

In relation to this, I agree with LA. You should consider your wife to be still having her affair. Even if she's not seeing him or being with him, there is technically still infidelity going on.

Also, you should reassure her that she doesn't need to follow any procedures from the internet. On the other hand, she might be willing to follow procedures if they were a plan for marital recovery that you both negotiated together.

Nobody likes to be dicatated to. And if she feels like issues regarding her happiness are being addressed too, she might be more willing to commit.

Anyway, that's to think about...

ttfn,

John

thank goodness you chimed in...lol..I've been agonizing over this one....I like presenting her with the problem and asking her to be part of the solution....



that's from Harley himself...

so is this:



is there a reason for not exposing her yet??...I must admit to not reading the beginning of this thread....I still get *twitchy* reading Dewt's stuff....so I don't know the 'whole' story....

but why has the affair not been exposed ....?

Adrian has exposed to all parties, just not her work. He can't seem to find a purchase hold on the reasons for the doing that to the company she works for. She does contact OM on company time, email and text during meetings. I'm at a loss for wording, also, though I keep shoving him in that direction (I'm bad).

Can you help with that? He's for it, just can't seem to get to the writing of the exposure letter.

SL,

Twitchy? Would love to pursue that reaction with ya. Anytime. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> (Dewt only came in the last three pages or so, if that helps.)

Adrian - Soulloss helps you out here in quoting Harley...I missed the negotiation part of ending the affair. You say what you're happy doing and ask for what she will do. It is a two-way street and I'm slanted in your direction, so I don't believe I'm being that helpful. Plan A does not mean that if she persists in saying, "I'll do it my way or no way," then you agree by silence. No. You can say, "I respectfully cannot accept your method. Help me see how your way earns my trust and builds my faith in your honesty so that can begin to believe you again, please."

More of the same. "That would be unacceptable to me."

LA

I told her that yesterday. She said "What do you want me to do?" I mentioned the letter but she didn't want to write it.

Also, remember the demands email she sent me? She asked me to trust her from the moment she ends her A and that I should not try to get close to her too soon beacuse she can't move on like nothing happened. I told her yesterday:
“Don’t you think you’re asking me for a little too much? I am not a robot (same way you told me you aren’t one) who was a switch – trust your wife/don’t trust you’re wife. At the end of the day you are having an affair, not me. Anyone would be suspicious if he was in my shoes. I think you should do something to regain my trust. I want to trust you, but I need you to help me do that. I need more than just a simple “trust me””

About transparency and email passwords. “What is this? The army? To report to you every half an hour?” she said. She disagrees with this as well.

ok...I'm going to go and think about this....

because my first reaction is an emotional one ...and we all know ou never 'go' with that one...lol...and since it comes from an emotional place, it is not very plan a-ish...


"it is innappropriate for you to remain friends with someone you broke your marriage vows with...it is innappropriate for you to remain friends with your affair partner..it is innappropriate for you to remain friends with someone who has hurt you, our children, myself, and their own families this much"

I said it to Dewt in 1999 and I said it to myself in 2004.



"we cannot begin to do any work on our marriage until your affair is over...and your affair is not over if you are still contacting the affair partner"




I'm guessing that... "I need no contact established or you need to find somewhere else to live rather than carrying on an affair in front of our daughters, your parents, and me, your husband...the man that loves you".......would probably not be very helpful..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />



alright...back to thinking....

OK.

There were emails back and forth between my W and the OM today. Needless to say they spoke on the phone as well. She called me today twice. Last time to tell me she will be late. Why did she call and tell me that?

Anyways, my question is should I ask her if she had contact with the OM today?

no.

why ask?..you already know...

there's no point..

she is having an affair....still, and you know not to expect truth, or if truth happens, then wild justifications for it all are sure to follow...

re-read what LovingAnyway wrote:

""I consider you actively in an affair as long as you have contact. I heard you say that you won't do a no contact letter so that I can believe you have ended the affair. What solution do you see to this? I cannot trust you because you've cheated on our marriage and lied to me. I cannot give you my trust until you have no contact and are transparent as to where you are and with evidence that you have not been in contact."

Adrian,

I'm calling on this mental giant melting pot for this idea:

Adrian begins to speak out loud to WW and Inlaws about affair. Has OMW and newborn over the house when WW arrives home. Family meeting.

"This is the woman whose marriage you tore apart...this is the marriage and family you are tearing apart. You have told me you ended it with OM, but you have not. Please look us in the eye and tell us what you are willing to do to stop destroying all our lives."

I'm with SL about wanting to act from extreme emotion. Good to know Adrian had the right answers in the coffee shop talk, but got nowhere. Time for tears and confrontation, I believe.

LA

soulloss,

If I told her I knew she had contact with him she would ask me how I knew that... I don't want her to know that I can read her emails...

LA,

Are you suggesting to call the OMW & baby to come to our house and confront my WW when she comes back home? That's a radical decision. What if my W would go for no contact in the next few days? I would spoil everything. Or am I just a dreamer?

I know this is gonna sound weird coming from me...

My advice is to (for the moment) do nothing radical.

Step back, Adrian. Take a breather. Let this situation sit for a few days.

The only thing I'd suggest you actually 'do' is to see if OMW will come to this site. The two of you in league against this affair would be devastating to your wife and the OM.

Apart from that, I think it would really be best to back off a little bit.

Don't let her think she's succeeding in lying to you. If she tells you there's been no contact, call her on it. Providing of course that you can do it without Lovebusting. You want to let her know that you aren't a fool, but at the same time you don't want to push her away.

You may want to pre-prepare what you are going to say.

Have you read up on Plan A? I posted you some links and so did others but you have not mentioned reading the material... (unless you did mention it but I missed that part, in which case forgive me...)

J

dewt,


There is no way I can prove her she had contact with the OM unless I tell her I read her emails and I don’t want to do that. Also, I think she already believe I am a fool. Yesterday, at the mall, she told me that she could’ve continued with the A forever and I wouldn’t have known, not even today…

I did read the plan A. I have read it before. I am trying as much as I can. But there are limits. For every man. Sometimes I want to end this in a blink of an eye.

I am sick entire of this. I am sick entire having her come back from work at 7.30PM when she should be home at 4.30PM. I am sick entire seeing her smiling in my face when I know she been lying to me. I am sick entire watching her face change when I ask her if she worked on the website. I am sick entire of getting sarcastic answers from her. I am sick entire of being told only lies. I am sick entire of being disrespectfully judged. I am sick entire of EVERYTHING. I feel like I am going to explode!!!
I can’t believe that this fog surrounding is soooooo thick.
I am tired and frustrated. I feel so alone. Like I’ve never been in my life. I feel bad. I can’t take this lies anymore.

I JUST WANT MY LIFE BACK. I JUST WANT (STILL WANT) MY WIFE BACK.

I will be on the road tomorrow (business trip to Detroit) but will check MB tomorrow first thing. I will travel with my FIL because I don’t think it’s not a good thing for me to travel alone given the fact I can’t really focus. Having him in the passenger seat would help me.

Dude,


Riiight... she told you this... well, considering that she would tell you something like that... and considering how much you know that she doesn't know you know... well, who exactly is the fool?

I think she's at the stage where she's still very much playing the fool. I don't think there's a lot you can do about that right now except hold the course... be the lighthouse...

She's going to be the one to make up her own mind, so you just focus on being a 'safe' choice for her to come back to.

I think it's great that you are travelling with FIL. Bonding time with him would be good for you and if there's anyone who can give you some insight into your wife, it's him and MIL. I've made a point of speaking with older folk over the last couple of years about marriage, life and everything. There's good solid advice to be had there.

I am going to wait until the end of the next week. If she still has contact then I will ask her to move out. Everything she told me at the mall was one big lie.

I asked her last night about her day. She said that she worked all day on a presentation. I also asked her for an update on the website. She got irritated. I asked her when she estimated she would finish it. She said "I don't know, one month..." The emails from the OM that she received yesterday were website related. "I am going to work on the website by myself. The OM won't do any work anymore." Yeah, right...

There are 11 days left. And that's it!

So the person who has been lying to you all this time about the A lied to you that it was over too. Hmmm... Honestly I don't know what you were expecting. I think we have been trying to tell you she would lie and that you needed to be prepared for it. Expect it. Also reading her emails is winding you up again. Your biggest mistake here is wanting to believe she would tell the truth.

Take another deep breath. Go back to Plan A. Forget about the 11 days. Stop checking up on her. You have made a quantum leap of progress in the past couple of days. It is obvious that the A is becoming very uncomfortable for her. Your plans are starting to have some effect. Let them work. Give them time.

Stop spying on WW for a while. Accept that she is still in contact. Keep the pressure on in other ways. Keep doing all the positive things you have been doing. Stop obsessing. Stop getting angry when you catch her in a lie. Avoid LB's, avoid DJ's, don't set any unrealistic deadlines for either one of you.

If you get angry, come here and vent, get over it and go back to Plan A. If you take the tone of your post to conversation with your wife, it will not help your cause. Only two days ago you had such a positive change. Don't blow it just yet. You were doing great - get back to it.

I am going to go back to another movie analogy. I am not speaking specifically to you - mostly I am just talking out loud. Do you remember the movie "Jaws"? Remember when Robert Shaw is talking about being in the water for four days after the Indianapolis was sunk and all the people being killed by sharks? He said that, once the rescue planes came, that was the time they were most afraid. They weren't so afraid of death when they had no hope. They were afraid of death when hope suddenly appreared. I mention this because I have had this feeling about my situation. When I though my M was hopeless, I wasn't afraid but, when I started to see a glimmer of hope of R, I did become afraid. I don't know if this will happen to you. It did happen to me so I just wanted to mention it. When it did happen to me, I immediately thought of that movie.