Speak for yourself. I haven't decided yet whether I am a good person or not. One of the doubts the A instilled in me. I used to think so. Now I am not so sure...

Yep, same here. All was rejected too. I cut and pasted some WW articles from this site to her in the beginning. She says back, 'that's nice if you want to work on the marriage but I don't'. SLAM. There's been worse too. But then she sheds some light of hope. It takes a while and it sucks that you give all you got in Plan A and get nothing, it seems. But you do get something sometimes and even if it is small it is something. Something that is better than a day or two ago. Even if it is just a little small talk, it's something. You just have to keep forcing yourself to do your best to be her best friend and TALK. Talk about anything, except the R.

What helps me is writing down everything I want to say about the relationship. So then I have it for the right time to talk about it. I read a thread here once, I think, that timing has a ton to do with R talk. So 1. it makes me feel better to get it out even though I'm just journaling to myself right now and 2. I'll have the thoughts when I need them. Yes I have pulled out cheat sheets when I say I want to talk to you about stuff and it helps.

My WW has moved a year ago, filed D papers over a month ago (when I exposed her A) but it seems like she and I talk more now than we have for years. You just have to keep on your path and she will break. Because remember she said that she loves you right? Just not in love or some BS like that. That is the key. There is something still in her you have to keep trying to bring out. So good! Don't give up until the very, very end. It takes a lotout of you to keep on keeping on, believe me I know. And that is waht everybody here keeps saying in one way or another.

And while you're on the movie comparison - Star Wars is one of the best. Because it's like our WW's are Darth Vader. A mean, hateful SOB from the dark side, but somewhere inside him is a little of the good side of the force and Luke Skywalker never gives up trying to get the good side to come back. Even after fighting almost to the death. He still believes Darth can come back. Just remember this line from that movie too, when Darth Vader is about to kill Obi Wan, Obi Wan says, If you strike me down I will become more powerful than you can ever imagine.

That line helps me get my confidence level back when I feel so cut down. Sorry for the dorky sci - fi reference but the shoe seems to fit. I am not the kind of guy who loses at things and what is happening to me (and you) is very difficult to get my head around. It seems like such a waste of life. So even when you think she is not noticing things I bet she is. She just has to keep that wall up. Keeping on your path and Plan A ing hard, but don't be clingy or desparate, will slowly change that block wall to a chain link fence. It's still there but at least you can see through it a little.

adrianc,

You are repeating the same behavior and expecting a different result.

Why does your WW reject everything you do?

This is very common behaviour. The wayward rejects because of Withdrawal, and also because to not reject would ruin the fantasy that makes the affair possible.

That's why I keep going on about 'being the lighthouse'. It is a good Plan A, over an extended period of time that builds up trust and breaks down the walls.

I say again, because it's so very important: This behaviour, which seems to callous and cruel, is to me one of the best signs of a recoverable marriage. It means the wayward is not capable of cheating without having a concience. It means they have integrity... even if it is broken at the moment.

I mean, think about it... If a wayward could just go messing around all the time, and never feel guilt, or conflict or even care about lying... I personally wouldn't try very hard to save that marriage, if it was mine...

Good call Dewt. That blew some air on the spark of hope.

Let me ask you this, no threadjack intended, maybe your wondering too Adrian. But why is the WW saying that the relationship can't go on without trust and that we don't have that. Well duh?! But when you ask her where she's been and gut instict says she might not be telling the whole truth, why do they give you the 'see you don't trust me' speech and if you say yes I don't, it just seems like you're stepping backwards from any progress. Does that make sense?

Adrian - is your W kinda pleasant when your alone at times but cold when around friends or family. Mine seems to get that way, like she's trying to prove that she doesn't care about us or something. This is one of my small goals to change.

Try that too Adrian, make small goals. Not just, goal 1 - have a loving realtionship again. That's too big right now. Pick something small that bugs you, something you can acomplish within a week or two. And do it. It helps you see that there is hope because there will be movement no matter how small. I read it in a book called The Divorce Remedy. i would get that one if I were you. Sorry for the competition MB's. It had some helpful hints.

Ltw,

I can chime in on that question...that's what my WH said, also. It really is in the WS script.

We've been told from childhood that you don't cry wolf (break trust); that without trust there is no relationship. I believe this was like the death penalty--only could serve as a deterrent. Doesn't work, though, IMO.

The Harley's don't think so, either. See, they say, you don't bank on trust and can still have a great marriage.

Why? Because I couldn't trust my H to take out the garbage, tell me his truth or return the movies to Blockbuster pre-A. But we had a relationship. He couldn't trust me to make our marriage a priority over the kids, not burn dinner and remember to not mix red sock with white load in the laundry.

He could trust me totally to DJ, AO and make SDs. I could trust him to withdraw, give me the silent treatment and mindread. We were very trustworthy with those things--and we had a relationship.

I trust my H now with all my heart--I trust him to be human. I know he's capable of anything, as am I. I trust myself to not make choices against my code. There's a lot of trust in our relationship...new trust. The real kind. I don't fear my H having another A; he might or might not. Still his choice as his other ones were. I live in the present and focus on our marriage as my top priority, do what I do, own it and appreciate our relationship. He trusts me to do that.

I expect him not to withdraw or punish me with his behavior. He expects me to not LB, demonstrate my love in his language and own only my feelings, not his. Our expectations are reasonable and includes forgiveness. We don't mirror one another or define the other.

Does that make sense?

LA

They give you that speech because they don't want to be caught. Then, if NC happens, they might give it to you because they don't like to be reminded of how they have proven themselves untrustworthy. Nobody likes to think that about themselves.

There's a way to answer honestly without going a step back. I am not the expert on that. I just know it's there. I can sometimes come up with something in writing, but on the spot... yikes. Fortunately there's no longer any need for that. My advice would be to have your comebacks prepared in advance. That way you can make sure they are honest and yet not disrespectful... which is what'll set you back... not the honesty part.

Always keep in mind the big picture. If they step back because you (respectfully) call them on something, then it's ok. It's called setting boundries.

Another thing I am not an expert at.

I would like to thank everybody for all the posts.
LA, Where were you? I was wondering… Thanks for coming back… I wouldn’t be on this board if it wasn’t for you.<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I had a pleasant night. I picked up as usual our older daughter from daycare and came back home at 5.20PM. My WW arrived at 5.30PM. It was a shock for me. “So early?”, I asked myself… She was very friendly, prepared the meal for me and asked me if I wanted anything else. The she asked me:
“How was the meeting?”
Me (not knowing what meeting she was talking about): “You mean yesterday’s meeting?”
My W: “Yes”
Me: “It was OK. Actually, it was better than I’ve expected. I usually get nailed big time by Ford, but for whatever reason it went pretty good.”

I didn’t get that one.<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Why did she ask me about that meeting only today? She could’ve done it last night… Anyways, better she asked me today than never…

I took my FIL (I asked my W too but she said she would stay with my MIL and our DDs) to Home Depot to buy some 2x4s (dewt – don’t laugh, I am dead serious) to build some shelves in the unfinished area of the basement for storage purposes. I love my basement, brings me good memories from when I worked hard to finish it. We had fun buying everything that we need make this project happen. I am looking forward to start working on it.

After we came back home my BIL and his W showed up and guess what? My W was friendly with her BIL’s W. That was the second shock for tonight. Then I came up with the idea of watching (at least the beginning of) the movie “The Cave” which was shot in Romania. We’ve seen a few places from back home that made us feel good. At least I was. Our older daughter “ordered” that I was going to take her upstairs to bed and my W would stay there with her until she falls asleep. I just love her when she has those demands...

Overall, I can say it was the first evening when I was not nervous. More than that, I felt good. Is it just my autosuggestion or things are getting a little bit better?

I will repeat: remove the word "why" from your vocabulary. It wastes valuable time.

Is working on the basement something you and WW can do together - without IL's?

Adrian,

I'm still here. You have truly valuable, Real Men helping you out...and other real women. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I'm in for the longhaul, just nursing my own wounds. Listen to Trac...no more whys!

You cracked me up with your sore back and dewts 2x4's...and again tonight, with you actually buying them!!! Your own humor will save you, Adrian. You get it, then you don't, then you get it again. You're human! It's a process.

And you are resourceful for yourself. Can't run because too darn cold...build instead. You have some really good metaphors going on in your life, I think.

LA

P.S. Kudos to dewt's grasp of onomonopeias...even I could feel the thwaps!

Adrian - Dude. Tonight, those little things she did, THAT IS WHAT I"M TALKING ABOUT BABY! Like everyone has said don't ask why just take them and smile. That, my friend is HOPE trying to 'punch a hole through the night'.
Now remember tomorrow a different woman could show up, if she does be kind, be still and the light will come back again, if not later that day then the next.

adrianc,

Since things seem to be pretty quiet with you, I wanted to take a minute to get back to work on you. I read that you are a runner. I am too. What I am about to write is not necessarily intended for you. Think of it more as me talking to myself out loud. If it is of any benefit, okay. If not, just treat it as nonsensical ramblings. That was for you. From here on, I am talking to me:

I like to run. I hate to run. That is, I hate to get myself all ready to run. Once I am running, I like it. There is a difference between running and jogging, in my mind. I think I could jog all day. It is a question of pace. By my definition, running is more pushing my body close to its limit. When I am concentrating on every breath, it is the only time where my mind and my body operate at the same rate. I am in sync. I am one with myself. Whatever philosophical tripe you can name it, it just seems to be. Maybe that is why I like running. I have been seeing lots of “sports” analogies lately in relation to recovery. Most say it is not a sprint – it is a marathon. Some idiot (i.e. your truly) even said the marathon was not a good analogy – that it was more like the Tour de France). Those sentiments are good to an extent but they are all wrong in a very fundamental way.

I have run races. I run at a different pace if it is a 100M, a 400M, a 1500M, a 5K or a 10K. I have run further than that but never in a race. In each competitive race I know exactly how hard I can push my body because I know almost exactly WHEN the race will be over. I never worry about the finish line or WHERE the race will be over. I only ever think about WHEN. The fundamental problem with these race analogies in relation to the recovery process is that they all relate to where. The finish line is well defined. The breakdown is that I have no clue WHEN I will reach it.

One time I found myself in Boulder, Colorado. I took my running shoes with me. I got up one morning and saw a nice running path and a nice mountain that couldn’t have been more than a couple miles away. I decide to run toward it. After about 5 miles, I swear that mountain refused to get one bit closer. I could see it crystal clear but I couldn’t get any closer no matter how long I ran.

One night many years ago, I set out to see how FAR I could run because I didn’t know and I was curious. I ran a circuit around where I lived that was about a mile and I just kept running. I eventually stopped at about 13 miles because I got extremely cold and uncontrollable shivers but I was running at my 5K pace. Regardless, whenever I set out to run, whether it is 5K, 10K or 15K, I am always running more or less around my house and the finish line is back where I started so it was not really a fair test. I have no trouble getting myself psyched if I know WHEN my ordeal is going to be over. Even so, I try to keep the pace a little difficult. A normal run for me is just over 5K and it is around the jebels at the far end of camp. I know there is a water jug about 3K from where I start. (It is important to know where the water is when you run in the desert.) The first 2K is not bad but I can’t see where the water place is for any of it. If I were to try to keep my eyes looking for it, I could not keep running. The final 1K is uphill, I am sucking wind but I can see the water can. Even so, I can’t look at it. If I do, I’ll quit running. I always do. I can’t keep my motivation even for 800M. Instead I keep my eyes right in front of me. One step. Another step. I lean forward and my momentum more than anything keeps me going. My mind can’t think very much because it is fully occupied running my body. If I did not pick my feet up and move them, I would fall flat on my face. This is the hardest part of the run – and also the best part. Every once in a while, I take a quick glance up just to make sure the water can is still there but then go right back to looking at my feet. I know I can get there because I know more or less when I am going to get there. Sometimes I find that there is no water in the can. It was false hope, in a way. I just have to set off to the next one. I never have any problem doing that. Strange.

What I am NOT good at doing is running without a goal. I have always wondered how far (long) I could really run if I were just to set out one day in a strange place where I had no landmarks or reference points and run in a straight line. If I were to tell someone to follow me in a car and pick me up when I ran out of steam so I did not have to worry about getting anywhere in particular (e.g. back to my house), I wonder how long it would be before I gave up and just sat on the side of the road. I don’t know the answer but I suspect it would not be very far. With no landmarks, there is no measurement of progress. With no end in sight, I can’t push myself. This is my primal fear in all this mess. I am on a strange route, no end in sight and no clue WHEN it will be over or, at least, when I will get the finish line in sight. Sometimes I just want to give up. Sometimes I just feel so alone. I ask myself the question how long I can keep running. Unfortunately the answer is that I won’t know until I have done it. I have no points of reference. The only motivation I have is to look down and make sure I keep picking up my feet so I don’t go spread eagle and splay myself on the ground. If I try to look up to the water can, it never seems to get any closer. This recovery process is a race with no time limit, no landmarks, no split times, nobody around to pace off of. The simple answer is there simply is no answer. How long can I run? Each day I set a new personal best.

I did have an afterthought which I am now including. I have learned one thing about running. Two things actually. The first is "uphill trains, downhill strains". The second is harder and I will steal from Douglas Adams. For those times when I don't think I can take one more step, when every part of my body aches, when my mind is complete mush such that I can't even add 2 + 2 and get the right answer, when I don't think there is anything left in me, the trick to keep running is to try to throw yourself down on the ground and miss. That last one is an extremely important lesson to remember because sometimes it is all you have.

Okay adrianc, I am back. You keep saying you are on Plan A. I am not sure that you and I spell that the same way. Get yourself some personal help. Go to IC. Get yourself together. For you to recover your M, your WW needs to see you as someone she wants to be married to. That is the basis of Plan A. What I wrote above is not intended to guide you in any way. It is a personal thought I have been struggling with for some time. Since you run, I thought it might be of some use to you. Some people might read that and write it off as me feeling sorry for myself. I think of it more as a personal struggle to reach a positive paradigm shift in mental attitude. To find one more footfall. Just one more step.

BTW adrianc,

That web site URL you posted is registered to:

Domain name: SCOREOPOLIS.COM

Administrative Contact:
Iosif, Viorel viosif@sympatico.ca
26 Bel Canto Crescent
Richmond Hill, Ontario L4E 4G7
CA
+1.9057734139 Fax: +1.0

Technical Contact:
Support, Technical support@hostmysite.com
260 Chapman Road
Suite 205
Newark, DE 19702
US
+1.3027314948 Fax: +1.0

Registrar of Record: TUCOWS, INC.
Record last updated on 06-Feb-2006.
Record expires on 06-Feb-2007.
Record created on 06-Feb-2006.

Domain servers in listed order:
NS1.LNHI.NET 209.41.184.100
NS3.LNHI.NET 65.36.160.18
NS2.LNHI.NET 65.36.160.56

Who is Viorel?

traicionado,

He's the OM.

Why are you saying this? I am trying to make my wife see me as the man she wants to be married to. That's why I am doing what I'm doing...

Up to this point you have been doing little more than crisis management. Many crises created by you. Go back and reread SAA about Plan A. Remember a few weeks ago when WW said that what you have been was not the real you? Has that changed since then? You cannot make WW fall in love with you. I suspect you are still trying to be someone you think she wants you to be instead of just being a better you. I still suggest you get IC. You have things you need to deal with yourself. Get the help you need so you can better help your M. Stop trying to be something and just be. Plan A is not something you just apply between fits of anger. It is a long, hard, thankless, painful, humiliating process that you have to be fully committed to. I can't see that you are based on your posts. Maybe I am wrong.

So we know who OM is and we have his email address. I just checked and www.friends-of-adrian.com is available. Since they like the WWW so much, I would register that domain. Costs between 10 and 20 USD to do it. I would then get a host server and make my own web site and paste the OM's picture on it along with his recent history. Then I would email that URL to everybody you know. If that is not your particular skill, it is something people like me can do quite easily. I doubt it would get a wide audience but you don't really need it. I think OM seeing himself and his disgraceful behavior on the WWW would hit hard and deep. Just my two cents. If you have a digital photo (jpeg), you could have a simple web site in a couple of hours. Many hosting packages are free but you pay for that. I prefer paid hosting which you can get for about $5 per month. I like www.ipowerweb.com myself but I am sure there are many others.

I like...

www.friends-of-adrians-marriage.com

I would post support.

I hear what Trac is saying...remember how we began your thread with the thoughts and feelings...all the "I feel" "I believe" statements? Being you is a great thing. Demonstrating you is more difficult than some imagine. Practice here.

LA

Forget about the web site for now. Forget about the OM for now. Focus on yourself and plan A.

Leave the web site on the back burner. Right now I don't want to get you distracted again. The web site might have some exposure potential you haven't already achieved but, in your mental state, I am not sure it is a wise plan.

Just remember on Plan A that WW does not want to see your changes. It will take a long time for them to sink in. For her to deny positive change in you reinforces in her mind the affair. Just be patient. And be consistent. Consistency is my biggest complaint about what you have done to-date. Please work on being consistent.

LA,

I didn't check to see if that URL is available but it is a safe bet that it is. It can't hurt to buy a URL. Many people buy them and never use them. Some buy just on spec to sell later. It can be a lucrative business although the opportunities are far fewer today than a few years ago.

traicionado,

Now I really need help.
Correct me if I’m wrong.
Yesterday, I didn’t pretend I was someone that I’m not only to please my WW. I was just myself. And I felt great. I was in a good mood, talked nice to everybody when I got home, including my W. I had a great time buying stuff for my basement project, I played with the kids, made plans with my W to register the older daughter for kindergarten and we watched together a little bit of that movie. This morning we talked a little bit in a friendly manner before she took off.
This is what I am trying to do every day. Is this the right thing to do? Does this comply with the Plan A? Or did I get it all wrong? I’ll look in the SAA again tonight.

The other thing that I’m confused about and don’t know what to do is whether or not I should be calling my W while we are at work. This morning she called me. Here is the conversation:
My W: “Are you at work yet?”
Me: “Yes”
My W: “You didn’t call me.”
Me: “I didn’t believe you wanted me to call you.”
My W: “You always called me after you got to work. For the past few days you’ve stopped doing that.”
Me: “OK. I will call you.”

After that we spoke about our older daughter, kindergarten and few other things.

So what do I do tomorrow? Do I call her?

LA, you’re absolutely right. I’ll do my best.

I will think about the URL.

Thinking of you.

Just read AshamedH's thread and am rocked to my socks. Not exactly the same situation as yours, but still. There is such growth and beauty all over, isn't there? Humans are. Wow.

Had me crying because I read Eagle's thread and had been posting to his wife's thread...man, some days, pain is everywhere. And I forgot during that to pray. We're not in this alone.

Those are my thoughts, Adrian. As to your conversation on calling...we talked about this before. What these connections (by phone) mean to you...did we get to what they represent to her?

I heard constraint in your answers to her instead of honesty. Did I misunderstand?

I remember that you calling was an act of love. Have you looked at the honesty in those calls, even pre-A? "I'm calling to say I picked up DDs from daycare." Weren't they also, "I'm calling to connect to you, hear your voice. I love your attention, even for a second, I'm filled." Mushy stuff like that. Just a thought. If it is true for you.

Thank you for each and every conversation you post...shows you're really listening, at least to me. LOL

Thanks for being here on MB.

LA

adrianc,

I am not here to criticize you. I am here to try to help you based on the mistakes I have made. If you are PO'ed at me, don't apologize for that either. We learn through communication. If you are being you, that is great. Plan A is something I had to continually revise and adjust so that it and I fit each other. I tweak it every day. Plan A is not necessarily exactly the same for everybody but the good thing about it is that it help you establish guidelines or boundaries. Just remember we are trying to help. Remember to always be positive and upbeat. Have you ever gone to a party and seen those few people who are the "life of the party"? The ones others like to flock around like moths around a candle? You need to be you but you need to be more you than normal. I don't know if that makes sense. I do suggest you establish some guidelines for yourself under Plan A and revisit them every day for a while.

Regarding the phone calls. My suggestion is don't do it. It is somewhat complicated. There is only one reason why you should make the calls but it is pathetically twisted and I will explain that too. Right now your WW is still in contact with OM. She knows you don't trust her and have been checking up on her. The fact that you don't trust her drives her crazy IMO so she wants you to make that call because a) she has the misguided belief that she is reestablishing trust and, more importantly, she is establishing exactly where you are. An example of what I mean by that is if a WW is going to run off for a quicky with an OM, it is common practice to call BH to make sure he is at home or work first. Then she can run off because she knows she won't be seen and she knows that there is no way you are going to call her right back and find she is not there because she thinks you would be violating the trust you two have recently established. WW will try to force you into pattern behavior. She wants you predictable. Now, what is the one reason that could rationalize the call? Maybe she doesn't trust herself. Maybe she has every desire to run off with OM during each coffee break. Maybe the only thing stopping her from doing that is fear that adrianc might call. She needs your call to stop her from doing something she knows she should not do. That is pathetic (words I used on my WW). It is not your responsibility to stop the A. It is her responsibility. Never let her use you to make up for her weakness and immaturity.

Right now she says she wants you to call. I can't see any good reason for it. I can assure you that once she establishes NC and begins withdrawal, she will scream at you for calling her at work. Yell at you for not trusting her. Complain that she just wants her "life" back and not be under a microscope.

The only good reason why WW would want you to call her is that she is a FWW and misses you and wants to do everything she can to try to reconnect to you and prove to you that she can be trusted. Do you think she is there yet? I don't.

When OM was here, my WW used to call right before she would run off to meet him. Made her feel safe knowing where I was. After OM was gone, she called supposedly to help me gain trust. Now she is scared to leave the house for fear that I will call and not find her here and wonder who she is with or what she is doing. She feels like she is under house arrest. The phone calls have just been a curse. That is my advice based on my experience anyway. If you feel the phone calls are a good thing in your situation, just vary the pattern. Don't call every day. Call at different times. Sometimes call multiple times. Don't let her get comfortable in knowing whe you are going to call. Unfortunately there is a danger to you in doing this. You start trying to play mental chess again. It can feed your paranoia and I think yours needs to go on a diet as it is.

One criticism in your conversation:


That was an unnecessary comment and tells her that she is still in control. If you want to call, call. She is your wife. This may come across as cruel but think about it. I probably would have said "I didn't have anything in particular to say" but not in an angry way, if you know what I mean.

I am glad you felt great. You cannot control WW. You can only control you. At the end of all this, regardless of the outcome, you have to be able to look yourself in the mirror and like who you have become. If you are pretending to be someone you are not, you create a house of cards that will eventually fall.

One last tidbit. Everyone is telling you to be consistent. There is a difference between being consistent and being predictable. Try not to be predictable. Don't let WW get into a comfort zone. She needs to feel safe with you but not necessarily comfortable. But please be consistent.