dewt is right. You do need legal advice. I have to make this quick but I don't see any benefit right now for you to send DD to Romania. There will be no benefit for you and WW to be alone and, in case of a legal custody issue, could blow up in your face.

Personally I liked what WW said about leaving the house under certain conditions. If you can make a case for abandonment, that would certainly be in your favor. This is what I was alluding to earlier when I suggested you hold off a bit and see if you can force her hand. I think right now you two are playing Russian Roulette. Sooner or later, WW will suffer a breakdown or simply leave.

On the other hand, get a lawyer's advice on whether there would be any advantage ofr you to have DD in Romania. If she is with MIL, however, I don't see how that helps you.

adrianc: your posters here are telling you really amazing things that can change your life for the better. Hang in there, and please consider doing what they suggest. I really like the movie suggestions and what those movies symbolize. Deep inside - maybe out of sight for now - you probably really want to spend your life with your W. You can change your relationship and renew it, and have a lifetime of love with her. It will require change on your part.

Don't give up. Keep plugging, and please continue considering the ideas they send to you. They are only doing it for you; no other motive than to help a fellow human being.

adrianc,

A quick question: can you tell me why WW has such heartburn with your mother? I know you love your mother but please be as honest as you possibly can. I have a reason for asking but I will wait to hear from you.

I now have time to read through your post. Yesterday was really bad for me so I was not thinking too clearly most of the evening. No problems with WW. In fact, she was wonderful in my time of need. Gotta love her.

Anyway, now reading your post. I want to make a comment that may seem critical but I think it just comes from confusion about your living situation. Also maybe Romanian customs I just don't understand. I admit I don't exactly remember how old your DD's are but it seems like they are something like 1 and 3. Toddlers not in preschool. I can't help but be struck by the fact that neither you nor WW seem to be the parents of your two girls. I admit there are advantages of family over daycare but only to a point. At least with daycare, it forces you and WW to take on the primary parenting responsibilities, creates problems that the two of you can work out together, etc. because you are a family unit. I am not trying to be judgemental but I think you should reconsider the high level of involvement these grandparents have in your family. That is part of the key - your family - you, WW, DD1 and DD2. That is the family. Just think about that. I was shocked when you said that after MIL's visa runs out that Mom will jump right in to fill the vacancy. If you were not having marital problems, I would look for other alternatives but, based on your post and, if you are truly considering Plan B or Plan D (possibly even Plan A still), Mom may be of some use. We'll see.

Now one thing you wrote confused me.



I am assuming that WW made this statement. Did you make a typo? Did you really mean "without her"?

If I assume that you really intended to say "without", then this is a scary statement WW made. Nature's tendency is that a mother protects her children under any circumstances. Even with us screwed up humans, that is still fundamental to the nature of most women. So, WW is saying she has no desire to have DD2 around but recognizes your need that DD2 stay.

So if DD2 does not go, WW takes both girls and goes to Romania. Presumably to dump them with MIL so she has her freedom. This is one point you need to talk to the lawyer about. Do your kids have passports? If so, who has possession of them? Does Canadian law require both parents to consent before a passport can be issued? You may be able to block her from taking them out of the country by simple inaction. Under Canadian law and Romanian law, can children travel on a parent's passport? That used to be possible but very few countries allow it any more.

"I am not going to sacrifice myself for my girls." Well, my definition of a mother and hers are juxtaposed. Mothers do sacrifice themselves for their children.

"Do you want to keep me away from the OM?" Why yes - absolutely. Answer that one honestly.

I would not send DD2 away. There is nothing wrong with daycare. Check it out, make sure it allows "surprise visits" so you can go check on DD2 any time you wish, has good references, etc. At least one of the two of you needs to begin to take on primary parental responsibility for your children. If you send DD2 to Romania, my fear is that will greatly complicate potential custody issues. If nothing else, by you sending DD2 to Romania, you have effectively abandoned her yourself. International travel with minor children is quite complicated and she may be able to block you from taking DD's back to Canada later. You really need to understand what laws will apply and what your rights would be. The way it would works in the USA, for example, is that if your wife has a Romanian passport and children have US passports, WW can get on a plane with them without your written consent (notarized). If WW has a US passport and so do DD's, WW needs no consent to travel. Just check up on both Canadian and Romanian law.

WW's comments don't surprise me that much. I have seen this with my WW too. All ready to abandon girls for new life with OM living happily everafter riding off into the sunset. Something is broken inside your WW. That primal instinct of a mother protecting her cubs just isn't there. It is actually a potential opportunity for you to get WW to attempt R but it is a double-edged sword. She might rewrite her plans and decide to leave you and fight for custody (which she would likely win). I say sit on this one just a bit longer and see where it looks like it is heading. If WW does leave and takes girls, file a restraining order to not allow her to take kids out of the country. That will put a serious cramp in her style. I would even tell her that if she makes the threat (in a calm way of course). Let her know that, if she takes the kids, she will be stuck with the kids and not too far awy from you so that you can have visitation. I promise you that is not acceptable to her.

I am going to go ahead and talk about your Mom. If Mom and WW have no real bad history, I suspect that WW's concern would be that you are bringing in an enemy spy. It is easy for her to continue her A with MIL but would be much harder with Mom because Mom is completely on your side and will watch WW like a hawk. If Mom coming really will be the straw that breaks this camel's back and causes WW to leave, I think that is a great Plan B option. It gives you daycare, keeps you as primary parent, WW abandons DD's which will be beneficial for you in a custody battle and WW will have to face reality and lose the fantasy. The question will then become (and you already raised it) will you ever take her back? Don't say "no" just yet. Decide that only when and if that time ever comes.

Your WW, for whatever reason, does not see herself as mother to her children. They are an inconvenience. She does not have to care for them and she ignores them when she is home. That is what I get from your posts anyway. She has a very serious problem and really needs IC.

Well, that is about all I have. I was serious about those movies. Did you watch them?

traicionado,

I have been on the road today. I just came back home and read your post. No talk to WW today at all.

I have seen Groundhog Day at least 25 times so far. Rocky III is also a movie that I’ve seen several times. Only thinking of these movies made me feel better. I just don’t find in me the strength that Bill Murray or Stallone had it. I just can’t find it anymore. I am simply exhausted.


I meant “without her”.

I can tell you that my DDs will not leave this country without my consent. I will double check, but to my knowledge my WW can’t travel with DDs if she doesn’t have my written approval. The DDs have only Canadian passports and they are with me. I am going to put them in a safe place. They do have Romanian citizenships but no Romanian passports. Let’s say the girls will travel to Romania. If I go after them over there then everything will be dealt under the Romanian law since we’re all Romanian citizens. Unfortunately I have no understanding about what the law says over there; therefore I will avoid this option. I want both DDs here with me.

The relation between my Mom and my WW has always been good. My WW got pissed off when she found out that I told my parents about her A. “You made a mistake by telling them!” she said back in January. There were some emails my father sent to my WW asking her to end her A and come back home. My WW was not happy with my parents’ involvement. But again, everything between them degenerated after my WW told me about the A and my parents found out.

I was told by a lawyer that my chances to get custody are slim to none. The law in Canada tends to give the children to their mother. Most likely will be a shared custody, kids will stay with her and I’ll pay for child support. I will talk to another lawyer for a second opinion and also ask about traveling with minors as well.

Right now, my WW has absolutely now intention about any kind of counseling. She keeps telling me that she will not discuss her problems with a stranger. I tried to explain her that the stranger is a professional and this is what he does for a living and he can help her. No success.

By saying what she said to me last night, my WW showed me only disrespect. Lots of it. But I can say that I am very happy with the way I handled the situation. I didn’t show her any disrespect and I was very calm. I listened to whatever she had to say and respectfully answered and stated my opinion even though she often rudely interrupted me. I cannot believe I was able to take so much from her in 5 minutes. Last year I would’ve had a different reaction. But not anymore.

Since I was on the road today, I had lots of time to think about my future. About my future without her. This is an option and I can’t ignore it. It seems unreal for me to have a life without her, but if it will come to that I am not sure how I’ll handle it, especially if she’ll get the DDs.

Okay I agree about the travel. I am so sorry that WW got upset somebody found out about her A. What on earth where you thinking? That was supposed to be a secret!

Did you call OM's parents? If not, why not.

Okay I am leaning toward bringing Mom across but is there any way you can leave Dad at home? Or doesn't Mom trust him if he is left alone?

I knwo that could represent a hardship for them but, to be honest, I have never been happy about that fact that FIL has been along for the ride. I can't go into too much detail right now but he is a fifth wheel in your current situation IMO and Dad will not be that much better. Just give it some thought.

I was just thinking of this: according to SAA I shouldn't take literally or personally what my WW tells me because she is a drug addict. If I think this way than she does care about DDs even though she now sees them as an inconvenience…

Use your own analogy. Would you let a cocaine-addicted mother care for her children believing that she would protect them first and feed her habit second? Don't think so.

I agree that what WW says may not be true. I think I have been trying to convince you of that for some time. But your logic is convoluted. What you are saying is: if red is not green and blue is not green, then red must be blue.

That is a big leap of faith you are taking. Be sure you have a safety net.

If you believe that WW loves her kids, you have to create a situation where she has to make a moral choice. She has to be in a position where she either has OM or the kids but not both. That can happen in Plan A and it can happen in Plan B but will not likely happen in Plan D as you have already surmised.

What I have been tryig to get to over the last few posts is to start thinking about how you can create this problem for her because right now she "is having her cake and eating it too". You have not yet really put her in a position where she has to make a clear choice. You may not be able to. Don't know. But that is what you should give some thought to. Listen to her. She is dropping hints.

YES!!!!!!!

adrianc,

I had the movie theme on my mind yesterday and I thought about this when you mentioned that you might send kids to Romania so you and WW could have some time alone together. Unfortunately in my difficulties yesterday it escaped my mind.

Before you plan to spend any time alone with WW, go watch the movie "The War of the Roses" with Michael Douglas. I predict that will be you and WW within a week. Just remember "but I've got more square footage!".

Sorry – I laugh every time I think about that. Thought you might too.

I have seen "The War Of The Roses" a long time ago and I can't remember much of it. I only know that the married couple tried everything to get each other out of the house. In my case, I believe it's simple. Just bring my parents over and that's it. She said she would leave.

This morning I woke up with this idea in my mind: She has a plan. She is going to wait until her parents take off and then she would leave. She doesn't want to do this right now because she is afarid that something bad might happen to her parents (their health is not so good and of course, according to my WW, it's my fault).

Do I want her to leave? Forever? One second I do, next second I don't. I don't know what I want anymore.

Is there anything I can do to prevent this? Doesn't look like I have options.

One more thing: I know I've asked this before but should I call her? I might sound like an idiot because everybody told me not to call her. But I am looking at this talking during the day over the phone differently now. Last time I spoke with her she complained about the fact that we came home and didn't talk almost at all. Maybe talking about anything is one of her EN right now. If that is true, me not calling her might be taken as a LB which is to be avoided. One the other hand she's not calling me either.
Thoughts?

A large part of the advice about not talking to her was mostly to do with you. I just wanted you to stop feeding your paranoia. If you feel that talking over the phone with WW may be the only way you can communicate with her, there is no real problem doing that. I would recommend that you make some ground rules. Tell her that you will may call her some days but not necessarily every day but that you will do it at a set time (plus or minus a few minutes). You do not want her to think you will call at any random time because you don't want her to think you are checking up on her. That will help both of you. I would really prefer that the two of you set aside a certain time in the evening or else in the early morning when kids are sound asleep and you could talk face-to-face. You both agree not to talk about your situation. You talk about the family, kids, necessary communication at first but the A, the OM, R, D, etc. are off limits for the time being. You have been married a long time. I would think you could come to that agreement but, if you can only do that by phone, at least it is something. I think you need to have some established guidelines for your talks. If those go well, you will see the boundaries grow with time but - yes - you absolutely need to communicate. I still would rather you did it in person rather than by phone.

I don't agree with your assessment of waiting until IL's leave. It is a good theory but not that simple. Personally I think it will be harder on them back in Romania because they will feel so helpless. Maybe WW doesn't share my opinion. She is behaving selfishly so possibly that is her way of avoiding guilt.

What is the situation with OM and OMW right now.? Have you exposed to his parents? Are they still in divorce proceedings?

Your thread bounced over to a new page so I will go back later and see if you have some other posts there but I gave you some homework this morning about thinking how you can force WW to choose between DD's and OM.

Did she ever want to have those children? Was it a mutual decision or did you push it? I don't doubt WW thinking of leaving them for OM. WW's do stupid things. What I don't get is her behavior right now - in the house - it is just plain weird. She ignores those kids from what you say in your posts and that does not add up. If she hated those kids, she wouldn't still be in the house. I don't think it is the IL's keeping her there. She has destroyed everything else around her, why not send her parents to their graves for good measure? At least then she would not have to live with their knowing looks. No. Something is wrong with this picture. Does anybody have any ideas?

Oh, was the OM a family friend back in Romania? Did the IL's know him there?

This is what I am going to do. I will talk to her in person.

They are waiting for the paperwork from the lawyer. The OMW is planning to go to Romania for 1 month. I have no idea if this is a good or a bad thing if I look at the whole picture. I have not talked to the OM parents.

I guess bringing my parents over would make her leave without the kids. But again, she might come back afterwards and claim the kids.

What if I tell her that I believe is better if we separate for a while. She’ll do whatever she thinks is good for her, I will look after the kids and she will help me financially with that. If she decides to come back after a while then we’ll sit down and discuss. The only question is what am I going to do with my Ils? I don’t think they would be happy with me asking their daughter to leave the house. But I need them to look after the kids (my parents can’t move over very soon).

Yes she did. We both did. I have never pushed her for that because I didn’t have to. Maybe my posts somehow created not a true picture regarding her attitude towards the kids. She has days when she ignores everybody in the house and she has days when she is spending the time that she has with the kids. What’s really bothering her is the kids’ reaction to different situations. They would start crying, they would say “no” if you, let’s say, tell them to eat everything they have on their plates. When that happens she goes ballistic. For whatever reason she doesn’t seem to understand (or maybe she doesn’t want to understand) that we’re dealing with a 3 ½ and 1 ¾ year old girls. They are very young. All the kids have their reactions.

No, I met the OM here and we realized that I knew the OMW from back home but we weren’t in touch over there.

So far I have tried to stay focus on giving my WW a good plan A. But today, while I was out for lunch I remembered that she HAS BEEN with another man. Right now I feel that I cannot go over this and I am asking myself if what I am trying to do is worth it. What if she decides to work on R and I realize that I don’t want that anymore and call it quits? Then I become the betrayer (just like traiciondao said) and I don't want that.

Hey, Adrian...

Time for me to pop in with my stay present reminder.

Your mind wants to go anywhere but the present...because the present bites...really does...

Don't let it go into the future because your present thoughts will change that future...any what-ifs (see your post) will mess you up enough right now to give you the EXACT RESULT that you don't want in the future. Your brain does not know time...that's why it creeps like slime when there's pain, or gallops like a ride when there's joy.

You know this. Forbid yourself what-ifs and if-onlys (wistful remembrances that didn't really happen)...you can remind yourself of your real wife, with your real life before this. You will know in the future what your future is...don't bring it into today, with its entourage of emotions that always follow what-ifs...and leave you experiencing an experience you haven't had.

My vote is to call WW like you used to...with the drop off and pick ups and plans and steady, steady, as she goes, because conversation/attention were big for your wife. You buys connected in reality, not fantasy. You're her 12-year anchor...and she can't really replace you, btw...she is trying desperately to do what can't be done. You're irreplaceable, you know. KNOW THAT.

The rhythm of your conversations, the short back and forths, were like a cradle motion in your marriage. I believe this from your feeling amputated by not doing them (and vindicated, and I don't blame you); but it is not Plan A, not being true to your standards...it is reacting from your pain and your other old pattern of tit for tat. I understand. Been there, done that...and am praying you won't choose what I did.

You can honor what is honorable in your wife. That's not delusional...that's acknowleding that your wife isn't a mistake, but she makes many, terribly hurtful, damaging ones. That's the lighthouse in you for her...a way back to what she might believe she has already annihilated.

LA

Now why was it you haven't called OM's parents?

You know how I feel such rejection when promises are broken....

::::crossing my arms, tapping my right toe and looking stern::::

You want to be able to say to your grown daughters...I did everything I could to save our marriage...and I did.

LA

Those are definitely the big questions. And yes, it happens that the betrayed calls it quits. Does it make you a betrayer too? I suppose that depends on your own personal ethics. Reading your posts, it sounds to me like you are a man of great honor.

Plan B has many angles. One of purposes to Plan B is that it protects the betrayed (you) from the chaos of the affair. Yes, it's still hard. Yes, it still hurts. But you don't have to live with an affair going on under your nose, or other behaviours that cause you harm.

Harley recommends (in general) a 6 month plan A if the wayward is a woman. Then go to Plan B. But he also says if it really gets too much, then go to Plan B.

Another program for marriage saving has a thing kind of like Plan B and they call it 'Protection Phase'.

Protection - as in; protecting yourself from further harm (also protects the relationship's chance at recovery)

And Phase - as in; a part of a larger plan.

I can't stress enough how important that larger plan is.

Your emotions are all over the place. On MB, we refer to that as 'the rollercoaster'.

When you have a larger plan, you aren't desperately making plans every 2 hours to keep up with how you feel about things.

Do not trust your feelings.

Feelings change. The situations that create those feelings change. How we deal with them changes.

Make a larger plan based on what you know is right. Make decisions based on your integrity as a man.

People in affairs make decisions based on feelings. Clearly this is not a good way to plot our paths through life.

Take 'er easy,
John

Thank you everybody for the posts.

Right now I am very angry. I don't even know if posting under this level of anger is the best thing to do. But here it is:

I had a conversation in the car with my WW while we were going to buy groceries. I got to the point where I wanted to tell her that I wanted a divorce. She started by asking me why I said she disrespected me and my parents. She twisted it to make it sound that I was the one who disrespected them last year when we were waiting for her parents to show up.

I parked the car and talked for a while. She became nervous and started to raise her voice. She was fed up with me telling her that we had to have a plan for R. She said that we got nothing in common, never had. “We have nothing to discuss about. We’ve never talked about anything. We’ve never had any dreams.”
I said: “Don’t say that we’ve never had any dreams. We’ve dreamed about moving to Canada, we’ve dreamed about getting good jobs, we’ve dreamed about buying this house, we’ve dreamed about having our DDs. We had many dreams and they all came true.”

There was a lot more we discussed about but it was again a useless conversation that didn’t lead us anywhere.
I stepped out of the car, went inside the store to get something and when I came back she was gone! I looked around but no sign of her. I drove around the plaza but no sign. I drove back home and told my in-laws that their daughter was missing. Obviously they asked me what happened. I got somehow nervous and I told them that this was too much for me and I am fed up with her. I said: “She’s the one having an affair and it’s again my fault, etc, etc.”
She showed up (plaza is very close) and started YELLING at me big time: “I told you not to talk to my parents about our problem. You’re going to get them again high blood pressure, etc.”
I only said that I was worried for her and I didn’t know what to do.


She told me again that she will never apologize for what she did. She doesn’t believe that she made a mistake by having an affair. THIS IS THE LAST DROP FOR ME. I told her that before we go to R, if we’ll get to that point, we have to clarify what she believes a marriage is. She might have another A anytime if she feels no guilt for what she’s done.

I asked her to move out. She didn’t want to because she believes that by doing that she might loose the kids.

She said that she wanted to die. She no longer has any reasons to live for except for DDs. She told me a little story. When she was about our DD1’s age she saw her mom crying because of her father. My WW asked her mom to get a divorce. But her mom didn’t do it. Yesterday she told her mother that if our DDs will ever ask her to get a divorce she will kill herself.

I can say right now that I no longer have the will to go for R. I do not love this woman anymore. I have no feelings left for her. I don’t know who she is. I feel sorry for my W who ceased to exist back in November. I fell sorry for my kids who will not have the childhood that I wished them to have. I cannot continue anymore like this. I cannot go over that fact that she had/has an A. I will file for divorce.

adrianc,

There is nothing wrong with asking yourself those questions and having doubts. In fact, I think it is quite healthy. I still go back to my original premise that most of us start this path toward R for the wrong reason and failing to correct that may achieve a goal that we ultimately never truly wanted. There is nothing wrong with the goal in and of itself - saving a marriage - saving a family - not making your children pay their entire lives for the sins of their parents. The R goal is a good thing but it depends on both of you. Neither one can achieve it alone. You have good days and bad days. You may be having a good day and some random trigger will throw you to the depths of despair in an instant. The rollercoaster does stop but not nearly soon enough.

I would say about 4 weeks ago I was exactly you (except that I couldn't speak Romanian - or Canadian for that matter, eh). If you go and read my thread of about that time, you will see your own words there. I asked myself those questions and found my answers. You will find yours too and they may be different. Don't be afraid to ask. Now is when you need to know the answer - not later.

What is the worst thing about the A for you? Is it the fact that she was intimate with someone else? Is that mental image the worst part for you? Is it the betrayal of trust? I don't want to get back into my elephant analogy but just answer that question. What is the very worst thing?

Think about it differently. Don't think about it as WW had/has an A. Think about it as WW made/is making a mistake. I know this is hard for you to believe but she is human. She isn't really an alien.

When we are under stress or depressed, we lose patience. When my WW goes ballistic with the kids, I get right in her face, calm her down and explain that her behavior is not right and she is dealing with kids. Her behavior is normal and understandable within the context of her stress but it is not acceptable. I tell her to go take a time-out while I sort it out with the kids. Neither of you can allow this to spill over to the kids. You have to protect them. Do not talk to your wife in a DJ way. Just calm her down and give her time. I think it is also good for her because this is one of the things that I think can penetrate the fog.

Different subject. Bringing your parents over will not make WW leave. Only WW will decide what will make her leave. Nothing you can do will force her. I know what she said but just don't count on it. Her moving out and paying you child support doesn't sound realistic to me.

If OM is planning to go to Romania for one month, call his parents. When is he planning on going? If it is within the next week or so, call the parents after he boards the plane but still in the air. Let that be a pleasant surprise for his homecoming. I really don't recommend waiting. You really should make that call right now. I have no idea what time zone Romania is in but I am guessing it must be about 6 or 7 AM at the moment.

You don't think IL's would be happy with you asking WW to leave but they will be happy with you allowing her to continue the A? Your IL's happiness should be the least of your concerns. Stuff em. Your M is what is on the line. If they become casualties, just remember who the villain is and it is not you. In fact, you make life too easy for them. Make them unhappy and then maybe they will do something. Please don't say you are concerned for their feelings - they just don't count. (Okay - you got me mad with that one - I'm better now).

--------------------------------------------------

In reading through the last post while writing this, I see you posted again. You say you have no feelings any more for WW. That is not true. Right now you feel anger toward her. If you didn't love her at all, she would not make you angry. It is not that you have no feelings for her - it is that you are numb to your feelings for her. As dewt said, don't trust your feelings because they lie to you just as WW's do to her.

Okay so she reiterated her rewritten history. Nothing you haven't heard before. She provoked you - typical WW behavior. She made no mistake and will never apologize. That is what she believes but it is not true. She may never apologize or, if she does, it may be a LONG time in coming. If that is a requirement for you to continue toward R, stop that way of thinking. That will likely be one of the last things she ever does.

Can you please go back to the very beginning of that conversation in the car and explain better exactly how that started? Overall I think it has lots of positives. WW sounds like the pressure cooker is about to explode. Does WW know whya, whe she was 3 years old, that FIL made MIL cry? How does a 3 yr old ask her mom to divorce her dad? How does she even remember it? Talk to MIL about this. Find out what happened.

I have heard the suicide talks for months with my WW. Nothing unusual there but just keep an eye on her. Most people who threaten suicide won't actually do it. So you were having an argument and you stepped out of the car. Was it just - I've had enough I am going into the store?

Go back a day or so. You complained that you have not been communicating with WW. Here is an opportunity and you were talking. Problem is you had an agenda. Why are you wanting to ask for a divorce. Are you willing to lose DD's? What changed in the last day or so? You are tired, frustrated and angry. Ready to throw in the towel and end your suffering. I am sorry to tell you but it won't be that easy and your pain won't end over night. If going for D is what you want, you need to do that in calm. Don't do it over anger. Think it through calmly and rationally. If Plan A is not working for you, remember there is always Plan B. Plan B may involve things you feel are deal-breakers but don't worry about that until later because, right now, you can't know if they truly will be or not.

What do you THINK the situation is right now between WW and OM? Don't go checking her emails right now. Just guess. Are they full speed ahead? Are they on the rocks? Is she facing a crisis that the A may be ending? Something looks like it is changing in her behavior.



So she told MIL that she will never get a divorce? Think about that. Why does she not want a divorce?