Oops, I found the LB questionnaire she was asking about. I will give it her tonight.

Give her a blank Lovebusters form for her to fill out for you. Fill out one by you for her.

Glad you found it.

I didn't say it was easy picking through rewrite versus her personal truth. Minefields are easier. However, E's way of saying, "I hear you now. I hear this is valid and something difficult for you to share. I hear you now."

How does that feel? Listening to her more can only be good, right? Her truth is hers...you know this...you acknowledging it is crucial.

This is in no way blame. This is better today and tomorrow stuff.

Please don't try to evaluate if she "should" feel overwhelmed when she didn't with DD1. That she had help with DD2 is an aside. See, if she felt it, she felt. She has the whys...we don't. Listening here is key.

You defended your boundary when she was walking away when you were talking...that's important. You made it about her not being respectful instead of you not feeling heard. I believe you most likely did that..."Please do not walk away when I'm speaking. I feel unheard and discarded."

You've gotten great at this...is it different? Something really is--she has accused you many times of changing too late...I don't think it is ever too late. Running again?

LA

No<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />


I meant I found the one I filled out a back in January and I showed to my W. I will also give a blank one for her to fill out.<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Another thing. It doesn’t really have much to do with my M. My BIL’s W called me and told me she would file for… divorce. She’s had enough with my BIL’s secrets. “He’s always on the phone with your W…” she told me “…and every time I ask him what he talked about with her he says: nothing.” Yesterday BIL poured a bottle of water on his W’s head to “calm her down”. She’s really pissed off and I do believe it’s going to happen because it’s not the first time she wanted to do this. It looks like it’s something in their family to disrespect their spouses.<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" />

Give her a really cool website address...

www.marriagebuilders.com

Don't know if you've heard of it...your SIL needs it.

Did you share what your SIL said to you with your wife?

How is that different than BIL not sharing?

See, I'm not telling you to do that. I'm just showing that unless you have boundaries in place before the action, then the horse has left the stable and closing the gate doesn't do anything...

Would you rather have your wife on the phone to her brother or...?

Would she rather have her H on the phone to his sister or...an OW?

Consider all of it. Yes, they have a dysfunctional family. Most of us do. Unhealthy living is passed down generation to generation, in my belief, since, uhm, Adam. And Eve. Look at their kids. Ack.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

So...what I'm getting at is that threatening divorce for disrespectful behavior is a DJ for a DJ, see? No boundaries, just annihilation. Yeah, very healthy.

Look at the whole of it and you'll see, you are conscious and making your approach the healthiest possible.

Hey, I knew you had already filled one out for her...and found that one...that's why I suggested adding a blank one (for her to do) to the other...her choice. Respectful. Would be fascinating if she'd fill it out, huh?

Maybe you could get your inlaws to come to MB...hey, they started it. (small heehee here)

(((()))))
LA

LA,

Your last post made me laugh. It seems to me that you're in a good mood today. Is there something you'd like to share with us?

It is midnight so I will do my best. I won't repeat what I already said.

Whether WW is speaking truth or her rewritten truth, to her it is still the truth. Okay, that is really immaterial for what I am telling you. What I am telling you is a process.

Some day you and WW will have to get to the root of all this so you will have to revisit the past. But I digress...

The process. You want R and, so far, have WW in the house and you are trying to implement Plan A. All good things. But WW is confused and untrusting just as you are. You have not been communicating and want to. Maybe she does to. People tell me that you and I have to lead by example. What I am telling you is to show her that example. She says something to you that is provocative. You don't get mad. Instead you find a way to discuss it and establish a dialogue of understanding. You recognize you were wrong and apologize and let her understand that it hurts you that you hurt her. You give her a hug after it is all done.

My point is that these are the types of things she needs to be doing with you. She needs to talk about her issues with you and try to reach resolution, understanding and forgiveness - but she doesn't know how. You give her the master plan - the model - you lead by example and she follows. You have to be consistent in everything so be consistent in your communication and problem resolution.

That conversation that brought up these posts was a golden opportunity to do that. Instead of doing the right thing, you got defensive and just assumed that WW was spouting rewritten history because, well, err, uh, that is just what WW's do. Way wrong answer! And then you start trying to diagnose post natal depression to boot!

No. Get with the plan and teach WW the process to aid in recovery - both hers and yours. Show her the path. Give her the example to follow.

And if you ever do find yourself apologizing and asking forgiveness, be strong when you do it - show her your strength in your manner and words. Don't cry and plead and beg forgiveness. You need to be her guidepost.

Well, that pretty much covers it. I am going back to bed.

traicionado,


Thanks for your post. I am going to give her the LB questionnaires tonight. I’ll see if she wants to discuss tonight. If not, I’ll let it go for now. Yesterday she cried claiming that we talk too much about our the problem on a daily basis… (which is not true but that doesn’t matter anyway), she’s a WW and I’ve learnt to disregard her comments.

I have to admit that so far I wasn’t showing her my strength. But that can be changed.

I don't know whether you discuss too much or not. Frankly I don't pay enough attention because our time zones are so far off that I usually come along with the broom.

I am not saying you should have "discussed" the parental care. I am saying she opened the door wide open for you to communicate and give her an example to follow and you stood outside. If she opens the door even a crack, go right in. Learn to recognize these opportunities. It gets easier but practice for now.

Look for opportunities where you can but don't be pushy. If you feel WW begin to get uncomfortable, back off. You might feel you are apologizing for things you did not do wrong. Don't go overboard with that. If you hear something that you think has given WW serious heartburn (justified or not), you need to explore it. It is more important that you begin to demonstrate to WW a behavioral pattern conducive to beginning R. It is not as important that you understand and explore the root cause of all your problems - not yet anyway. Help pull your WW into R any way you can. You may have to swallow your ego to do it. That should be nothing new for you so you already know how it tastes. Swallowing ego is like Chinese food - it satisfies you for the moment but, an hour later, you are hungry again.

BTW, I am just wondering how much influence this apparent difficulty WW had after DD2 was born is having on her decision to send DD2 off to Romania for the rest of the year. Has anybody discussed that here? It either seems coincidental or else has triggered WW's memory of a problem she really had. LA will know the answer to that better than me. I already voted on the issue and won't change my opinion.

I gave my WW both LB questionnaires (the old one I filled out for her and a blank one). She didn’t give them back to me yet. She went to bed at 8.30PM last night.
Still didn’t take a decision about DD2 whether or not I should let her go to Romania for 8 months.

Adrian,

Good morning. Got to get this straight in my mind about how you guys make decisions.

Your wife is going to decide whether or not you should let DD2 go to Romania for 8 months?

I'm lost. It is a joint decision, correct? You have your desire and WW has hers, correct?

Then you negotiate, talk and come to a compromised, or united decision? Is this the way it goes?

Adrian...can you be seperated from DD2 for that long? Isn't that like 40% or more of her sweet life? Wow.

It was a terrible thing for me to be seperated from my first born for six to eight months at a time...when he was 18 years, not months, old. After four years of being overseas, he's coming home in two months. How can you be seperated that long from your blood, baby, amazing tiny human person?

I think Traic/Eyeore (who's having issues with identity himself) is thinking as I am about WW being biased...when we feel inadequate, it is painful, and we can look at what we feel inadequate about and make IT to blame...which could be DD2. That doesn't mean we don't love. I remember not being ready to love a second son like I did the first one...came along slowly, did feel heavier, back to square one, while the first born kept being different every day.

I remember. I don't think I did well at it for two years...then I did, because my middle son was very different, a little love beacon in himself, because he was so different. He is the most like me. We revel in it and cry about it. LOL. He now works where I work. I get to see him and hug his 20-year-old self today. ::: Life is really good.

The most formative, tough, consequential days of your kids' lives are the first six years. Any part is crucial. Any part. Each day. Look. All of this...is already affecting your DDs...believe me...I messed up mine enough to know what I'm talking about!!

Your wife needs help. She has to get it for herself...you can suggest, but professional intervention might be a great idea. You could say how much you love her being the mother of her children and that she is important, valuable and worth the time and attention IC could bring. That you don't believe she needs to be fixed, but rather given her own hour a week to explore what she wants, needs and know her family supports her.

I dunno...been working and come back and back to this...I sound pushy and judgmental to myself. I don't think I'm giving you good advice.

Will DD1 be in school, and therefore not go to daycare when your inlaws leave? I didn't think she was old enough for that.

I am confused. But I'm awake...have Traic/Eor/Eyeore's sun coming through my window...thanks, TEE (I abbrev)... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA

LA,

I can't disagree with you. I have lived with enough Europeans to know that, in some countries, their views on sending kids away is very different from mine. I have no idea how a typical Romanian would view that. I shared my opinion early on and won't discuss it further.

What I do want adrianc to be sure of is that it is what he wants to do - that he not make that choice only because it is what WW wants to do. If adrianc decides that sending DD2 away is the right choice for him, I can't judge him for it. This is not to criticize you either. Personally this would be tearing me apart. Just remember that not all people of all cultures share the same opinions about young children.

adrianc,

How does a typical Romanian view doing something like this? What does MIL think of WW's "decision"? Help me put this in perspective.

LA

It’s hard for me to say how much I would miss her. I am only thinking of what would be the best to do to save my M. If this is what I need to do to save it then this is what I will do.


Yes LA, that’s the way it goes right now. We negotiate. We have not come to an agreement yet but we eventually will.

I have told her that last Sunday. I suggested a psychiatrist but she doesn’t believe that it would help her in any way. I am going to ask her again.

I had another thought. What if I send everybody back home? My WW, DD1 & DD2. They will stay there until Christmas. She would have to quit the job but that would not be a problem for her because she hates it anyways. She would have lots of time to think about the future, won't she? This might be taken somehow as Plan B. We won’t see each other for a long time. The only thing is that I would have both DDs away from me. What do you think? Have I gone crazy already?

I know for sure that she is totally 100% for it.

Please don't ask her again about professional help. I believe that gives the message that you believe she is a child, who forgets, doesn't know...if she doesn't believe it will help and won't seek it, then that's all you can do. She heard you.

I got nothing. My own abandonment issues are too darn big. Soulloss, TEE and dewt must be your guides here on this issue.

LA

Wait..how about calling the Harley's back?

I know, I'm slow...but I get there.

LA

Thank you LA for your support.
Today was one of "those" days... I felt agian that I could never forget what my WW did: she was with another man. It's coming back to me more and more often. I did call her today (she called me twice yesterday with no real reason). But I had a good reason to do it. Our godfather sent me an email telling me that his FIL died of heart attack. So we chat for about 5 minutes!!! That's a LOT! She was very friendly and in a good mood. I bet on aything that when she'll get home she'll be mad as soon as DDs will start screaming and fighting.
I did speak with my godmother and she told me she wanted to talk to my WW. Maybe that's a good idea.

I still don't know how I could go over the fact my WW got intimate with the OM. It's so hard... almost imposible for me.

I'm here...even if we live to regret that!!

"I felt agian that I could never forget what my WW did"

Adrian. Have you met yourself in the future? Do you know how much you'll know, what you'll feel and believe?

Then how do you know that you could never forget?

I'm only a couple years in the future and KNOW I don't think about all the A mess for days at a time. If I wasn't here, I wouldn't think of it at all...maybe a once-a-month trigger that lasts five seconds.

My H was with another woman. Does it hurt? Yeah. Is it forgivable? Yeah. Is it really hard and takes every older wiser part of you to get there?

Yeah.

I'm not saying do it now...just don't look at that future and CONDEMN yourself. Not her, you. You're worth more than that. Far more.

Why is it coming back more often? Why? You know, tell. Are you being more honest? Less heroic? More angry? Resentful? Frustrated?

"almost imposible for me" now.

Right now.

Yes, it is. Viable, true and feels strong in you.

But it isn't ever...forever...never...it is right now.

LA

No, I haven't met myself in the future. But what if I make the wrong step? What are the chances I would feel again for my WW? And believe and trust her? Why would I take my chances? If she's done it once she might as well do it again? Correct me if I'm wrong...

I totally agree with you. It is forgivable. But can I forget. I can honestly say NO, NO, NO. You can't force yourself to forget something. It's like stealing your own hat. You simply just can't do it. Like I've said before, I've been to focus on plan A and haven't thought about the intimacy between my WW and the OM.

I believe it's about me being more honest and angrier. And frustrated after all the speeches she had about family, love, trust, happiness, kids, betrayal... You should’ve heard her what she said about a friend of ours who lived back home and left his W and DD for another woman… And now she’s nothing but the same as that firend…

Getting back to your post about sending all three back to Romania - now you are starting to think outside the box. Good for you. I would consider this a Plan B but an excellent Plan B. If you think you can pull this off with WW, go for it. It keeps her away from OM (almost probably), keeps her under the watchful eye of MIL (you say she is on your side), give WW time and distance and gives you time and distance.

The reason I like this idea is not some much for WW because it is not an ideal Plan B IMO but I think it may be just exactly what you need. It will give you time to decide if the M is what you really want.

Now, if you do go this direction, I am wondering about how much WW is exposed back home and how much she should be exposed back home. This particular Plan B was one of my options and although WW was exposed back home, it was a small circle. I had not gotten any advice about this because it was never imminent but I wondered if it might not be a good idea to expose her a little more to her family and close friends so that she did not go back in total comfort. I ultimately had to reject this Plan B in my case because of school for my DDs. In your case, school is not a problem.

As far as your feelings and doubts about whether you want this now or not, I get back to my Apollo 13 movie analogy. The part where they have to make the manual course correction right before entering the earth's atmosphere because the computer is down. Originally the craft (your marriage) is headed nicely toward earth but them a correction has to be made (because of the affair) so Jim Lovell (you) and a sick Fred Haise(your WW) each have to take separate controls and each has to make a serious of adjustments using their controls in ways they have never been trained to do and working independently but trying to work together, correct their course to get back to earth. Have you seen that movie? That is exactly the situation you are in and you and WW are all over the place and can't see where you are going because you have no point of reference. But working together the two of you can get the target back in sight.

From my POV, and I know you won't be able to do this, but stop even thinking about what you want because you can't know. You are being driven by feelings and emotions that can't last. You can always decide later on that WW is not what you want but I think you need to keep on the R track, give each of you an opportunity to get past this and find out who WW is and who you are and make the decision at that time if the two of you can be happy together. If not, split. D is always an option - now, a year from now, 10 years from now. There is no rush for that.

I will say (and have said) that I have a doubt enter my dense little brain every single day. Sometimes for a second and other times for the entire day. It happens less and less and then a trigger will hit. Short of a weekend tryst between WW and OM, I am my greatest obstacle to R. I am exercising my demons rather than exorcising them. As everyone here on MB will attest to, I am my own worst problem. You are a lot like me in that regard. The thoughts and feelings you are having are normal - but they are just feelings. Love is not a feeling. Being "in love" is a feeling.

You are extremely good about evading questions. What about my other question? How does a typical Romanian view sending kids away? I ask this because to me it would be slow death but maybe you see it differently through your culture. LA and I want to understand that. I am not trying to be critical of you. On the contrary, I am trying to give you the benefit of the doubt. If you, as a typical Romanian, view this as a normal thing to do, then WW would view it as a normal thing to do as well. All I am trying to understand is how each of the two of you are going to view sending DD2 away. As I mentioned earlier, I already gave you my opinion and don't want to do that again. It is not my life.

On the other hand, do you honestly believe that sending DD2 away for 8 months is the only hope you have of saving your M? Can we discuss what has brought you to that conclusion? Explain the logic and let's all get on the same page so we can discuss it better.

As for MIL, what grandmother would not take any and every opportunity to be with grandchild? MIL is not exactly unbiased in this either. Don't listen to MIL and don't listen to WW. Listen to your heart. What does it tell you?

I wasn’t trying to evade any question. If I’ve created that impression then I apologize. Sending kids away is not something unusual or unacceptable from a Romanian’s perspective. I have been raised by my grandmother but that was in the same city where my parents lived so the saw us every day. In DD2 case things would be totally different and I would miss her more than I could ever say.


I don’t believe anything anymore. Not even myself.
I was thinking that sending DD2 home would give us more time to spend together. I wanted to have that time because just like SAA said one of the R rules was “time”. I wanted to be able to have that in our R process. But I do believe that the other plan (sending everybody back home) is more or less better for everybody. It will be less for me because I will sure miss DDs a lot. I remember your wrote in one of your posts that you’d die for your children. I am only taking away the happiness of seeing each other every day for a limited period of time hoping that it will help with the R and one day we’ll be a happy family. Better not spend time with them now and spend the rest of my life / their lives together. I guess there’s a price to pay for everything, isn’t it?
I keep mentioning R… I don’t even think I am (or we are) there yet. It has eventually begun for me but I don’t see that coming from WW just yet. It might not come at all.

Maybe I’m wrong but I do believe that my WW will think more clearly over there than here. The thing that makes me think twice is, again, the doubt that I have about wanting to be with my WW in the future. You know, I’ve mentioned about that before: trust, respect, etc. I don’t have that fro her anymore. And her infidelity…

I usually like to fix the problems I have as quickly as possible. I can’t sleep properly when a problem is keep bugging me. I realized that this is something that cannot be fixed overnight, but struggling for something that doesn’t have a certain future, that might end up in a D is not really what I want. I want answers, truth, someone to be able rely on, to trust. WW is not giving me any of those. I know, you will tell me that she is surrounded by fog, this is what I should expect during plan A and when the fog will dissipate she will be different. It might be true, but I can’t live like this for years. You will tell me that there is always a plan B. I have tried to get her out of the house but she is not going to do that. She will not leave.

I am not sure I’m getting this one. Why are you saying that you’re your own worst problem? Help?

On the other hand, the LB questionnaires I gave my WW are still sitting untouched on her night table.