You're just like Douglas Adams was, Trac (I always left out the i on purpose)...he couldn't spell, either.

Eyeore

That's Christopher Robbins' friend.

I thought Thor would have been a better moniker. LOL

Guess that sounds like I did understanding throwing yourself at the ground and trying to miss, huh?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Great new signature, too.

Back to Adrian...

Remind me again why we aren't checking the cell phone when we have opportunity? Is it like the emails...just agree to know the A is active until it ain't?

Man, what willpower, Adrian! Whoa. Again...stronger than me. Way stronger. Nice to know you're not a self-punisher (okay, you are, but not so much)...

And thanks for the info about the bbq...now I'm hungry.

Orchid....you're like a wizard...one misspelling and whoosh! name changes. I'm stunned. I knew you were powerful...but...

LA

LA,

Cell phone? emails? What are these? You know what? If you haven’t mentioned about it I wouldn’t have remembered about them. Do you really think I am a self-punisher? I would call it more like self control.

My WW is about to have a nervous breakdown (unless she is the perfect actress; I know, though, that Orchid said that WS are NOT great actors). I spoke with her today and she started crying while she was telling me that she’ll be alone after her parents are going to leave.
Me: “You won’t be alone. I am here for you. Also, why do you want DD2 to go with your parents? You want DD2 to stay there till Christmas when we’ll fly there to bring her home? Aren’t you going to miss her?
My WW: “I guess I’ll miss her… But it’s going to be better for her than sending her to day care. She’s too young for that (1 year and 10months). Obviously, you’re not thinking of her, are you?”

I told her I was going to think about this. Now I am asking myself: What have I got to lose if I let DD2 go to Romania other than missing her for so long? In case of divorce WW will get the DDs anyways. I am trying to see the good side of the picture (if there is one). Having only DD1 with us will give us more time to spend together, which is what Harley suggests during the R time. I believe I will let DD2 go to Romania.

Today was not bad. First of all it was a beautifull sunny day and about +8 degrees Celsius - very nice compared with the previous days here in Toronto, Canada. We went out shopping in the morning (all of us) and in the afternoon just my WW and myself. We spoke in one day more than we spoke in the past 4 weeks!

Yes, you are not self-punishing in that way. I was projecting. I had no self-control over my snooping.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

What are these? ROFL

Hey, what happened to listen and repeat?

"I'll be all alone after my parents leave."

"I hear you're choosing to be alone after your parents leave."

Hand back her words, her fears. Stop stealing from her.

"I hear you're not sure if you'll miss DD2."

"I would prefer daycare and seeing my DD2 every day than sending her back home."

(Child seperation from primary caregivers is TRAUMATIC)

You want more time with your WS?

Yuck. Maybe you are self-punishing.

Let your wife feel her breakdown...only way to get to her core and why she chooses what she does. Every step you take to prevent her consequences for her actions sink in, you are cutting off your own feet and denying her wisdom.

Read some parenting books on seperation anxiety and how long it takes to get over it. Might be what is done a lot in your culture...was it done to you? Do you now adults that it was done to? Talk to them.

LA

Maybe this is just a cultural thing. More European. I don't know. I know English parents who send their 1st grade children off to England to boarding school.

Yes your DD would be at day care for a few hours each day but would be with her family the rest of the day. Think of how many things you are going to miss. How many new things she will learn to do and you will never know it.

Personally I could never agree with your decision but it is your decision. All I will say on the subject is send DD2 away if and only if it is what YOU want to do. Don't do it because WW says it is what you should do. Her parental instincts have not exactly been spot on lately. You could just as easily have answered WW and said that you were thinking ONLY of DD2 and that she needs her parents. Oh well, I'll stop now. It just makes me sad.

The other thing that I find interesting is that the two of you have apparently agreed to do something 9 months from now (i.e. fly to Romania for Christmas). That is kind of long-term thinking for a WW in an affair thinking about leaving. That is not a bad sign but don't start too many of those conversations yourself. Let her start them. Get her to say what the two of you are going to be doing a few weeks or a few months from now. Every time she starts talking about a future that involves you, note that.

Sending a child away for 9 1/2 months at age 1 and 10 months??? How is this a good thing?? Sorry but that blows my mind.

LA,

Thanks for the spelling correction. We did not bring any books with us when we moved to Saudi because they are usually confiscated. Also we tend to just learn to spell everything phonetically here. There is no wrong way to write an Arabic word in the English alphabet. Do you know how many ways there REALLY are to spell barbeque? I admit you have my curiosity up about Thor. Am I really that bad?

adrianc,

Just wanted to say I am proud of you about the cellphone. Nothing you are going to see on it is going to be of any benefit to you right now. You seem to have really settled down and gotten control of yourself and the situation. Don't mess that up. If you keep this up, you will reach the point where you won't even notice the cellphone is sitting there - and that is a wonderful feeling and probably not too far off.

Not to be a wet blanket here but I do want to warn you that you need to be aware of something. It sounds like things with WW are beginning to cool down. Your crises are becoming fewer and further apart. It is in that quiet time that your own thoughts will begin to haunt you. That is because you have been too busy worrying about WW to worry about you. Remember to take care of yourself. Get IC if you haven't and feel you need it. There are still a lot of things that you need to work out. One way or the other, you will have to heal eventually.

Doesn’t look like based on the last conversation I had with my WW. I told my WW that sending DD2 to Romania for 8 months might not be the best idea because we’ll be like two strangers for by then. She disagreed. While I was talking to her she was heading towards the door ignoring me. Just about before she stepped out of the room I asked her to stop and listened to me. I told her that she should show me some respect because it’s impolite to turn your back and leave the room when someone is talking to you. “What is this? High society and we have to follow some rules? Can’t you just walk behind me?” she said.
Anyways, needless to say how bad the conversation was.

She went downstairs. I found her on the sofa crying. I asked her what the problem was.
My WW: “I can’t take this anymore. Every day we have the same conversation.”
Me: “But you asked me today what the plans with DD2 are…”
My WW: “I can’t take this anymore. You decide whatever you want to do with DD2 and you can also take decisions for me too before I end up in the mental hospital.”

Is this the “withdrawal” type of behavior, is she mentally ill, is she playing games or is she having a nervous breakdown?

Is she mentally ill? Yes, by definition all WS's are mentally ill so forget about it.

Remember the stages of grief. That WW you saw at the barbeque was like a Dali painting. Pleasant to look at but weird.

This is WW beginning to crack. Good for you. Just remember that these are problems you can't just immediately "fix" for her. The solution is obvious to you but not to her. Don't try to talk things out all the time. Let her cry. If she will let you, hold her. Be supportive in any way she will allow. Just don't get mad.

Personally I like better traicionado than Eyeore.
I tried to translate this:
Is it something like “the husband betrayed by the soul mate… the one searching for love with all his soul”

How bad was that? I don’t speak Spanish but it’s somehow close to Romanian (who is also a Latin language).<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


Who said anything about me being mad? I was and I am calm.

Give it up. What it says is: the betrayed husband of "gemela"...and I still love her to the depths of my soul. gemela just happesn to be her screen name here on MB. Dont' read her posts BTW. It won't do either of us any good and if I learn you are reading her posts, I'll stop reading yours.

Where you calm or did you repress anger? I am not saying be calm. I am saying don't get mad. Period. If you find yourself start to get angry about anything - walk away.

Don't try to reason with WW when she breaks down. Just be patient and supportive. That she will remember.

Yes I watched an X-files once that was spoken a fair bit in Romanian albeit with subtitles. I covered up the subtitles and was surprised about how much I actually understood.

Pretty cool when that happens... Being from Quebec, I speak both English and French.

I went down to the Dominican Republic as part of a sales contest. I met a venezuelan girl who spoke neither. I learned to speak Spanish in like a week. Not very well mind you, but enough.

Then, when I came back, I found myself in a Portugese household trying to make a sale. The family launched into a private discussion (in portugese) and I picked up enough to prepare a counter their objections when they'd finished. It was a pretty neat experience.

I can still read Spanish and get the gist of it...

But now the question is "Should I?"

Why are WWs having this sadistic pleasure of hurting BSs? Why are they happy when bringing all those false accusations? Not that I am impressed with that anymore but I am trying to understand better what is going through their minds. I believe it would help me how to react to what WWs would eventually say next.

I know it seems that way, but I really don't believe that they really get pleasure from this. For the most part, I think that WS are some seriously hurting people. They aren't happy. They are miserable. Not only do they find themselves in an ugly situation, but they also have to live with the knowledge that they caused it. They will go to EXTREME legnths to avoid facing up to this, but deep in their hearts, they know the truth. It is a very bitter pill to swallow.

I wish you were right dewt.

I just remember one thing my WW told me last night. During our conversation at one point of time she told me that her life has changed after the DD2 was born. She said it was too much for her to handle. She said that staying home another one full year on maternity leave and lookingt after the DD2 with no help was too much (I disagree what she's saying about help but there is no point in going back to that now). It sounds to me that she had a post natal depression. What do you think?

Adrian,

I wouldn't attempt to diagnose your WW. What I would do is say how important you take her disclosure and make an important for a doctor to do that...maybe segue into MC that way. You do it because her health is important to you (stuff you tell her) and you take her pain very seriously.

Remember, you didn't make her stay home when it got too tough...she had choices, with or without you. That includes her belief that daycare is bad on babies...even if it was a joint belief you both held. She had choices...she chose. You don't need to point those out, just retain truth in your head. Then you can be a better listener, non-reactive. Few of us would be capable of being truly calm, Adrian, in your situation; I believe you.

When people bring up the past a lot, the same things, that to you are done and over, it means either they don't feel heard, believe you've prejudged their view, or you aren't giving them the reaction they desire.

This is seperate from the way WS rewrite marital history. Tough to tell the difference.

Key to what she felt that she stated was that she felt inadequate, insufficient to take care of both DD1 and DD2 after DD2 was born. There's a key. Her own thing.

Now, on to Eyeore...

You're welcome for the spelling correction. I am annoying that way.

Thor? Well, Long Tea Time of the Soul...he's not harsh, he's huge and naturally willful, and kind and funny as all get out. That's the way he seemed to me. Ancient beliefs in a modern day world. Just gettin' by. Tough adaptation; no revolution required.

See any similarities there, E?

And to dear dewt...

Did I mention that each time I see your name I hear the song, "Dewt, dewt, dewt lookin' out my back door." CCR. I'm old.

Where's soulloss? She writes great posts, also. And to my knowledge, doesn't spew.

LA

Post natal depression requires a professional. Don't even go there without a doctor. Can I ask?

1) Did she stay at home and take care of DD1 by herself?

2) If no, why did she do so with DD2?

3) If yes, was she dealing with both at the same time?

4) Did your or her parents ever come over to assist?

Do you think she might have some anger toward you in that maybe she blames you for not helping out more? There are lots of options here besides post natal depression.

I am going to diverge from LA here. Maybe there is a grain of truth worth exploring within yourself. Do you think she ever tried to get your attention with this during that time and maybe you just didn't hear her?

1)Yes she did (but she had help).
2)She did the same with DD2
3)She dealt with both at the same time but she wasn’t all by herself.
4)Yes, they did.



She has anger towards me. Period. Including for not helping her enough, which is not true IMO.
She might’ve tried to get my attention. I can’t say I didn’t hear her otherwise I would’ve done something. Maybe she did try.

LA,

Isn’t she bringing up the past trying to make this all about me just to get me in the center of attention so we won’t focus on her A? That I wasn't a good help wiht the kids?

It is true that WW's rewrite history - but they don't rewrite all of it. They only rewrite the part they need to. Now the issue you have is that you are treating it like a get out of jail free card. You don't have to take ownership of anything WW says because it must be contrived.

My gut feel is that there is something of the truth hidden inside what she said. My feel is that she is reaching out to you for help. Even if what she believes is false, perception is all that matters. There is no such thing as truth. Go back way early in your thread. We have already discussed all that.

Don't get defensive. Go back and reread the first part of SAA. The couple never communicated. Tha man worked his rear off thinking it was for the family and neglected the family in the process. Just go back and try to reexamine that period and see if she has some grounds for feeling the way she does.

And do you know what I would do? Even if I were 100% convinced she was wrong, I would still apologize and beg her forgiveness - but that is just me. If she feels pain from the past, let it heal. Gotta go...

I am in a big hurry and don't have time to explain this the way I would like. I can tomorrow. This is what I absolutely think you need to do ASAP.

Go to WW and tell her you have been thinking about what she said about her life after DD2's birth. Tell her you realize you were not as supportive as you should have been. Tell her you were doing what you thought was best for the family and did not realize you were hurting WW in the process. Ask her about what you could have done differently. Talk about it if she will let her. At the end of it, tell her you loved her and would never have done anything to hurt her. Apologize from the bottom of your heart and tell her that you hope some day she can forgive you for the wrong that you did her.

You just gotta trust me on this. There are a dozen reasons why you need to do this. I will explain tomorrow. This is a golden opportunity and you need training on how to handle these opportunities in the future. More tomorrow.

I did apologize for my mistakes already. I even did what Harley told me to do. I filled out LBs questionnaire pretending I was she and then asked her is she agreed. She did look at the form and agreed that what I wrote down was true. Basically, I wrote down what I believed I did wrong and was a LB for her.
That reminds me that she asked me last night if I still had that form. Unfortunately I don’t have it anymore. Made me pissed off but maybe I should take a blank one and fill it out again, even though she said that I would do it differently this time.

traicionado,
I am looking forward to reading your tomorrow’s post.