I decided not to sell the house yet, I told him I give him the first week of April to think about us, but I can give him more time he just have to ask for it.
One night he came up in our bedroom (he sleeps downstairs on the couch) and was crying and told me he wants to be with me but not like this - who can tell me what does this mean

It means that your WH is starting to realize that he's gotten himself into an insane situation. He's in over his head and on some levels he's starting to realize it but he doesn't know how to get out of it and on other levels, he's still seeing it through 'the Fog'.

I bet if he had a magic button that would put everything right and make this all go away, he'd be pushing it right now.

I think the same goes for Adrian's wife, but on a much deeper level. She is still totally wrapped in 'the Fog'. I think it is her protection.

I think with your H, reality is starting to settle in and 'the Fog' is starting to not be such good protection for him.

This is where a good Plan A becomes critical.

I would not call what you are in a 'Plan B'. Plan B is a very specific way of dealing with a wayward spouse. It includes a letter and an extended period of separation and no contact. It's ok to have some distance with a wayward spouse while you are in Plan A... I'm sorry to sound like I'm nit-picking, but Plan B is serious business and if done wrong, can be quite disastrous. Me being the resident expert on disasters.

Basically, there's a war going on inside your H. A good Plan A will give major ammunition to the side of him that wants to save his family and also make it easier for him to make the right choices.

Hey boby,

As long as WH is still in the house, you are technically in the Plan A stage. If he moves out then you have to set strict guidelines for Plan B. In other words, his actions will have consequences. If he moves out, you decide whether he calls or not - not him. And your decision is that he not call. He needs to feel the pain for his poor choices. Don't make it easy on him. He can't just be a father when it is convenient for him.

I think it is great that you are willing to give this an opportunity but you really do need to do your homework. Read all you can about Plan A and Plan B and find out how you can apply those to your specific situation. There is no magic rule. Each situation is a little different so don't be afraid. Remember that if your WH really wanted to be out of your M, he would already be long gone.

Just remember to not get too focused on the lies that WH tells you. They say and do things that make no sense. They are not much more than babbling idiots and your newborn son has more intelligent things come out of his mouth than your WH does about now. You have to be willing to put up with more pain than you have already suffered. The unfair part of this deal is that you are the one who has been hurt and betrayed but you are the one who has to fight to save the M. How did the Harley's ever come up with that one I wonder?

adrianc,

Let's say that somehow this all works out. The waywards both return to their marriages. Two families become complete again. Logistically how will this work out? Will it be possible to keep enough distance?

Yes, it would possible to keep enough distance. We live approx. 20km apart. The possibility to accidentally meet is very low. We don't do the shopping in the same area. If they decide to go for NC then we should be OK.

I'm seeing a much more positive light in Adrians posts here lately and it makes me glad.

Hello Boby, welcome <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I'm new here also, my link's a little earlier in Adrians thread.

All I ask is that you two be careful not to meet EN's of each other. You have a long history together, and though the the support of being in the same situation is important, along with sharing information...

It can easily become a slippery slope that you don't want to slide down.

Shared pain makes people become close. Both of you are vulnerable right now, but incredibly strong to be standing up for what you believe in. (Marraige)

I wish you two all the luck and success in the world. Let us know how things are going?

I am so happy that Boby came to MB's, and that Adrians posts are lighter.

Much love,
Snuggles

hey traicionado,
you are so right. Last week he was so different, almost him again, this week changed back again, because they met, they promised each other god knows what. I am a strong lady and I will fight for what's mine (I told him this in an email I sent him yesterday).
yesterday I emailed him a couple of times, he doesn want to talk with his mother anymore. His mon phones me and told me she wants to come and visit, she knows he will move out and she wants to come and stay with me for support (nice of her but realy she had a plan not to leave until she makes him come back to his family). He knows his mother very well, so he told me he doesn't want her here. So I emailed him about his mother and in the end I told him a feal so stupid because of everything I do to save our marriage when i can see he doesn't want this marriage anymore. I told him I hope his crazyness will go away one day, but I hope its not gonna be to late for us. His answer to all these :"if it's craziness will go away, if it's not will not go away. I sent him another email telling him that I will wait for him to come back for a short time and after that I will just get married very quickly and end this chapter of my life - no asnwer on that one. I just wanted to hurt him really.
Then last night he came home, did not go to school, was very cold with me, played with the baby, I went upstairs and ironed for an hour (he did come up and see if I'm OK).For the rest of this week and next week I will not ask him anything, if he talks with me I will answer if not, not. I am not sure he will leave. He needs a lot of courage to leave, and i don't think he has any of that.
Today my little angel is 8 weeks old, he was born January 27, 2006 at 9:06 AM, but you guys know this.

Boby,
I admire you so much. My husband wants to stay but I have the urge to kick him out. My pride is hurt so badly. I wish I can learn from you. Good luck with everything!

boby,

Make sure you do your homework on Plan A. You are a little lucky because, at this point, I don't think there is very much you can do wrong to force your WH to leave. In other words, don't be afraid "if I do this or say this, it might backfire and make him decide to go". He has already decided to leave. Something is preventing it. Maybe it is your son. Maybe it is because he is a spineless jellyfish. Maybe some part of him realizes he is being an idiot. I doubt the last one is the case because us men are generally not that smart.

Great to hear that he doesn't want to talk to his mom. That means his conscience is killing him. That means he knows what he is doing is very very wrong. When he said that if it is craziness, it will go away - interesting comment. I read into that he may now be having doubts. A good thing. I also read into that he has no clue what he is going through. A bad thing - at least in the short term.

My only concern right now is that one of the four of you is going to do something precipitous to break this stalemate. You only control 25% of the situation. Just don't make any rash decisions and don't make any decision in anger.

When you ignored WH and went upstairs to iron - personally I thought that was great. Be nice and pleasant to WH but don't dote on him. He didn't like that you left him alone. It makes him feel insecure - and with good reason. He keeps wanting to talk to you to try to judge your reactions. Just say as little as possible. Don't let him know what you are really thinking. It is okay to lie to your WH. He has been lying to you for a long time. Keep him guessing and off-balance. Just remember there is no easy fix for this. It takes time. Don't waste time thinking about that one magic thing you can say to your WH that will snap him out of this fog he is in. That magic phrase doesn't exist. Whatever you do or say, be consistent. Show him you are strong and independent. Show him you don't need him any more (don't tell him). By being needy, you won't bring him back. By being strong, he may begin to realize that the situation is salvageable and he may realize that he is the one who is needy - because he is. If he is cold to you, let him be. Just don't let him see your anger if you have any. Be polite.

Snuggles is right and it was my biggest concern about you two sharing a thread. I highly recommend that you and adrianc keep (as much as possible) your communications to this thread or this forum and avoid too many phone call or email exchanges in private.

I like the idea of MIL coming to help with the baby. It clearly demonstrates the WH is not fulfilling his obligation as a parent. You, by yourself caring for DS, let's him say that all is under control. MIL having to come in and save the day tells the world that he abandoned his newborn child. I would have her on a plane today if it were me. I think the longest she can stay is six months right? During that six months, WH's life will be miserable (well - it already is but it will get far worse).

traicionado thanks for your advice. I will follow everything you told me.
You guys don't worry about Adrian and me, we don't talk a lot on the phone, don't email at all and we did not saw each other since New years eve.
We will both focus on how to save our M's, I still love WH and he is still in love with his WW, I don't need to complicate more my life. I guess you agree with me Adrian.

boby,

I am not sure if you understand what you wrote or not but you are EXACTLY right. Yes - you LOVE your WH but he is IN LOVE with adrianc's wife. That is the crux of the problem. If you can always remember that, it will help you get through this. Being IN LOVE doesn't last - ever (well, maybe is fairy tales).

If you still love your WH than, yes, I think you should do anything and everything to save your M because you will be saving your WH from himself. If you love him, you will do that for him.

Hi guys!

I just came back. I was on the road today. Drove for four hours, attended a useless 2 hours meeting where I didn't say a word and then drove back for another four hours. Damn business trip. It was not a good day for me. I felt a sharp pain in my heart. I kind of got scared but I feel better now.

I should’ve listened to LovingAnyway and called the OM’s parents long time ago. Well, I guess it’s better later then never.



traicionado, I believe that boby is in love with her H, not her WH, and the OM is in love with my WW not my W. Am I right? Please say yes.

IMO the OM will leave but will be back in no time and that’s going to be the end of it. That’s what I believe and I hope I’m not wrong.

Hey, boby and Adrian...

I don't believe as Traic does. From experience. There is no in love about it with either OM or WW...they both are in love with the fantasy they have created...they love their own feelings, distraction and cleaner slates than within their marriage. As their slate continues to be messed up with reality (exposure, time and themselves), the more reality can come back in...and poof...those feelings disappear, quickly replaced with guilt and shame.

You both know real love...and I think you know both of your spouses do love you...share history, best friends, dependencies and real children. The betrayal remains in each of you--being in love with a fantasy (not a person) is still a betrayal. Feel relief neither of you went there, can learn from it and grow.

So can your spouses...when the aliens drop them back off.

About your sharp pain, Adrian...many people experience their emotions in the center of their chests...we're rather wired that way. What I have since discovered is that our postures change dramatically during high stress...we instinctively curl inward more--our brains feel emotional attacks the way they feel physical ones, so see if your shoulders are curving more, dropped, or slumping some...this shifts your torso to carry more weight, feel heavier, and can get those nerves between our ribs upset from pressure.

Just a thought. When we feel sharp pains we readjust ourselves...part of the whole pain signal to pull back...stop doing what we're doing...naturally. Hmmm...sounds like the same reaction to emotional pain, doesn't it?

Just handing you your own power, by the bucketful.

LA

adrianc,

Unfortunately I am no longer buying into the theory that you can drop a letter from WH or WW and get H or W. WH will never be H again and WW will never be W again. Those people are gone. The best you can hope to achieve is that they will eventually become FWH or FWW. I don't mean that to sound negative or fatalistic. In fact, FWH may even be much better than H ever was. If we didn't believe that the possibility existed, most of us would probably walk right out the door. I am just saying that if you think W is still hiding somewhere inside WW, you are greatly oversimplifying the problem and are prone to making mistakes.

Whatever WH does right now is going to come crashing down on him. I don't care if those two truly are soulmates. Can you imagine trying ti sustain a long term relationship with that much emotional baggage? They will have so much hidden resentment for each other, they will likely end up killing one another. If WH and WW leave each of you, they will leave each other before long.

I know he loves me too, thats why i want to save this M, I know we have a future together and its not because of the baby. I told him once :if we don't have the baby would of been easier for you to leave me. His answer was no, it's not easy.He knows what he does is wrong, he admitted 1000 times he is wrong and he will regret it. I told him I am crying and begging you to stay, you should be begging me to let you stay. His answer; don't worry that time will come too. Sometimes the fog is lifted and is him again.
I hope Adrian is right, that WH will be back in no time, he depends on me a lot, lets wait and see.

What you say may be true and may not be true. WH's lie. That is what they do best. Many (most) times they even lie to themselves. Give it time and see what happens. It may just be that, at the moment, he wants you as his fallback position in case the A does not pan out. Remember he is relying on adrianc's wife to leave him and apparently she is spineless too. He is definitely trying not to burn his bridges. As ToddAC keeps trying to tell me - actions speak louder than words. If he knows what he is doing is wrong and he knows he will regret it, why does he keep doing it? He does it because it is what he wants even if it is only fantasy. His actions don't indicate he wants to recover the marriage. At least not yet. Hopefully in time that will change.

Also, if he is a person of reasonably good conscience, he might fight to believe the fantasy because the alternative is to admit to himself that he is a complete jerk and he also might feel a misguided "moral obligation" to the OW for having gotten her into this. I am just guessing here as to the motivations of a WH.

Just be careful. Don't hear only what you want to hear. Don't believe everything that comes out of his mouth. Also don't beg him to stay. Ever. There is something keeping him from leaving. Be strong and patient and let things take their course. Avoid LB's and DJ's.

In my case, my WW didn't stay for me. She did it for DDs. I believe she'll come around and realize that she still loves me. What she tells me is irrelevant. Last Monday she told she wanted to get divorced. Nothing happened after that. Why? I believe because she doesn't really want a divorce. It's only an idea that got into her head and she simply refuses to give it up. She wants to live with that idea in her head. She'll come around... After the OM's fog lifts up.

sometimes I just don't know anymore. like this morning.he was emailing her under my nose.he will wake up, but I don't know when. He told me once that what he did was wrong and he cannot get over it, and now he is punishing himself. He told me w\"what I did" but it is "what I do" because he is continuing with all the stupid things. I think he needs medical help

About what trac said....dropping a letter from WW and WH...and that the FWH/FWW can be better than H/W.

He's absolutely right. Its like former smokers, they are the rabid avid ones that can't stand smoking in any shape or form. Former smokers are the worst for non tolerance in smoking.

In my experience, my FWH is the same way about affairs. He won't tolerate jokes, movies, or newspaper articles about it.

I wouldn't want my H back the way he was before the affairs. That man allowed it to happen. Just like I wouldn't want my marraige back the way it was before hand either, that situation allowed it to happen.

In many ways my FWH is so much better now than ever before.

I want to give you an example please...

Last night my H disciplined my daughter (9), I didn't agree with it whatsoever. After taking care of the situation we sat down and had a talk.

His behavior has been erratic since I started going back to school. Discipline was one of the flags. I listed some things that were concerning me, and he actually looked at them and adressed them.

Turns out he's concerned that I'll think my career is more important than my family. I've been a stay at home mom for the entire marraige. Only volunteering for EMS instead of being paid.

He's also concerned that I'll find someone at school or work (when I start) and decide "Enough is enough" ..this is his infidelity biting him in the rear. FWH's do think about what they did, and it makes them much more careful in their actions once the fog clears.

So we ended up discussing some things. I asked him to get on the same page with me as far as disciplining the children. He asked me to do something very simple as well. Tuesdays and Thursdays, set everything out including pots and pans...so that he doesn't have to worry about cooking. Small thing that would make him feel better, I don't mind doing it.

Before all this...He would have stewed, made things up in his head. Taken no responsibility. Blamed me for everything. Eventually blowing it so out of proportion he would have clammed up and then exploded.

Granted we didn't get to sleep till 2 am, but it was settled and an agreement was made.

Patience is so important.

Boby--

Going upstairs to Iron was perfect. It rocked his world a bit that you weren't begging him. Doubt in what he's doing is slipping in along with reality. Applause for you.

Both Adrian and Boby--

Please remember, I don't know if anyones touched on this yet...Sleep when you need sleep, eat when you're hungry. Find things to laugh at every day. Smile at your children and co-workers. LIVE your life instead of survive it.

Much love,
Snuggles

I decided to take a little break. Will not discuss with him anymore, be nice (i was nice all these 4 month), answer if he ask anything, let him leave, and reasses everything after the one week he is gone. Maybe I don't want him anymore, maybe I still want him, I don't know if I want the old him or I want I new one.
I guess for me is just wait and see now.
I will update you guys if something new will happen.

I spent today 9 hours with my WW. Several times I managed to managed to forget about everything. I lasted for 2-3 minutes. During that time I felt relaxed, confident and there was no pain in my chest. We discussed about all kind of things, nothing really important, but it was OK. It felt OK. In the car, very often, she was just staring at nothing without saying anything.

We are home now and play with the girls.

Boby, I know they write each other. Please don't pay attention to that. It's not a secret that they do it. The day we're both waiting will come. It's close. I can feel that.
But don't get too excited. It's going to be very difficult after that. That's what experienced people told me.