boby,

You need to read about the stages of grief.



This is so typical of a BS. Most if not all of us have been here. This is not a real feeling. I could go into a lot of detail about it but I won't. My only advice is simply don't think about this. Don't try to answer this question. Forget about it because it will answer itself soon enough without any help from you. Yes - just wait and see.

So he emailed right in front of you. First, one of the big attractions of the A is the secrecy. The fact that he is emailing in front of you means that part of the attraction of the A has been taken away. On the other hand, the fact that he is doing it in front of you is disrespect. My take on this is he can eamil all he wants but he can't do it under your roof or in your presence. If he is using a desk top PC, unplug it. If he is using a laptop, close the cover. When you do this, don't be angry. Be very calm and explain why you are doing it and explain the boundaries - no emails in your presence or in the presence of your child. As long as he is in your house, he cannot conduct his affair. Don't allow him to legitimize it and don't you condone it. Weeks ago adrianc was getting his WW coffee and bonbons so she could have privacy to talk to your husband. I reamed him for it and I'll do the same to you. You cannot stop him from continuing the affair but you can prevent him from doing it in your house. If he is talking on his cellphone to the OW from your house, at the first opportunity, drop the cellphone into the toilet. Explain to WH that there are very clearly defined boundaries. Don't do it in anger. Do it out of respect for yourself and your child.

If WH asks you something, answer but keep your answer as brief as possible. Examples: he asks how you are feeling? answer: betrayed. One word. He asks if you want the marriage? Yes. One word. Right now give him as little info as possible. He is paranoid. Help him develop that paranoia. He will keep trying to make contact with you and try to understand what you are feeling. Don't let him know. Drive him insane with self-doubt. You can do all this without DJ's, without LB's. You can do all this while still being nice and pleasant. The truth is he does not need a lot of help from you to make his life miserable. He is quite capable all by himself.

trai, thanks for your post.
Today I am in a bad mood (I wan never a moody person,but I am becoming one) and I just don't want this guy anymore (I know tomorrow I will think different). This is the guy who cheated on his 7 month pregnant wife, this is the guy who lied to his wife, why would I want a guy like this in my life (I am just venting right now, I know will go away). I don't know for sure that he emailed to her I don't have a good view of his screen from were i am sitting, but this doesn't matter now, in one week he is out and I can think about what I want.

boby,

Go ahead and vent here. It is safe. Moody. Yes. I think the common term is the rollercoaster. Do your best to get through this week. Do your best Plan A this week and them take a mini-vacation and treat yourself to something nice when he leaves. When he does leave, it will feel really great - maybe the best you have felt in a really long time - for maybe a day or two. Just stay here and keep posting. You are going to get through all of this just fine.

Boby,

No one wants the WS...they do things that our real spouses wouldn't. They cheat on pregnant wives, justify stuff they would have ridiculed in others before. They aren't our spouses. There really is a fog.

You can always think what you want; we're asking you to not react like you have in the past. Not to react at all. Choose your actions, your perspective now, carefully. You're dealing with an alien.

Boundaries are really important. Enforce the ones that Traic suggested. I did. Didn't blow my marriage.

Keep venting and seeing the difference between your real H and this WH...really helps to understand.

LA

LA,

Can you do me a favor? Please read below what my WW told me and tell me how you would translate it:
“What do you think changed in a few days? Last time I told you I wanted a divorce and next day you acted like nothing happened. As usual, I say something and I am the only one who listens” This happened on Sunday after we spent 9 hours just by ourselves on Saturday.

LA,

Where are you?

If she wants a divorce, tell her she can do it. There is nothing stopping her. I am sure there are hundreds of lawyers eager to help her. Don't fall into this trap. If you file because she says she wants it, later she will blame you for it - they always do. If she wants a divorce, let it be on her head. Let her explain it to the DDs in a few years.

I can't interpret like LA can so won't bother. For me, this is like someone saying "I am going to commit suicide". They never do it. People who really want to kill themselves just do it. If your WW really wants a D, she'll just do it and you will find out about it from a process server.

In my mind, this is just a WW trying to get attention for herself.

traicionado,

I have the same opinion. If she wanted a divorce she would've done long time ago. But she didn’t and I still don’t know why. Don't worry; I am not falling into her trap.

This morning I gave her a ride so she can take the downtown train. She's taking a course (her employer sent her). She’s there all by herself and she probably meets with the OM. boby, I guess you realize that.

DD2 will not fly to Romania with my in-laws. She will be taken to the same daycare with DD1 starting June 7th. There will be 1 ½ month when we won’t have anybody here to help us with DD2. I’ll have to find something quickly. I spoke with my WW in the car and she told me: “You said that you wouldn’t forgive yourself if you would let DD2 go away for 8 months. I hope you can forgive yourself when you’ll hear her crying in the morning.” I said:” I wanted to have my parents in our house looking after DD2. Perhaps you can tell me why they won’t be there. I just want things to go back to normal, but that takes time.” She said: “I don’t have time” and opened the car door and got out of the car.

Good morning,

I was out last night...at a book signing...for me, like seeing a concert, in the presence of a rock star.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Yes, the translation is substantiating her entitlement. There is something beneath this to pay attention to, Adrian. Her perspective is that what she wants doesn't matter in the marriage. Not valid right now. Common symptom when the Giver runs out of all it has and the Taker steps in. The sad irony here is that if listened to asked for what she wanted, she might be stumped, back then.

She may feel the A was the only thing she has on her own, her choice, time for her to matter. It is a messed up perspective, but gives that hint of how she thought her role in the marriage "should" be.

That Listen/Repeat isn't just for A's...it really is to here, be interested in and validate your partner. Responses could include (should she say it again...and she might):

"I hear you want a divorce. I hear you want your pain to end. I am not ignoring you. I want to save our marriage. That's how I want all of our pain to end."

As for this morning's conversation, she desperately wants others to suffer consequences from their decisions. She is sick of being wrong, choosing wrong. You can tell she is desperate because of her argument...which says that DD2 will cry in Romania, but you won't be there to hear it.

She is pain-bound and wondering why her A isn't curing everything. It is fizzling, dying off. Doesn't have the fantasy punch it once had--in fact, pain has intruded there, also.

You are doing great with your responses. I think that asking her about her feelings isn't off limits in this way:

"How will you feel about her crying in the morning?"

"I hear you don't believe I listen to you."

Calmly, caringly...focused.

I'm urging you again to seperate your beliefs from her...just acknowledge her statements. She feels she doesn't have time, but she does. We all do. She doesn't feel listened to, but you can repeat her statements. Know what you know, Adrian.

You know what might have smarted the most about not sending DD2 off? That you faced a hard decision and chose to not do what was unforgivable for you. She didn't.

We're with you, even if I did ditch you for an icon for a night.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA

Does DD1 cry in the mornings? If not, then why on earth would DD2? She'll be there with her sister, someone she knows and loves. Not seperated from her parents in what is a very traumatic situation right now. Even if everything occurs behind closed doors and away from the children, I learned from experience they still know somethings wrong.

I find it horrible whenever someone uses a child to try and get their way. As with your WW stating what she did about DD2 crying in the morning.

As far as time goes, the only one thats placing a time constraint on her at this moment is her. She has all the time in the world if she would put forth an effort to save the marraige.

Human beings are so simple. Love, compassion, a little respect for personal needs. All it takes is some eye opening, and a little effort.

Keep doing what you're doing Adrian, I can tell from your postings that some of the turmoil's left you, and you're more calm. More in control of what you say/do. Big applause for you.

My shot at WWspeak-


“You said that you wouldn’t forgive yourself if you would let DD2 go away for 8 months."

--I hate it that you're thinking of the children more than I am right now, and that I can't help it. I want to think about ME and MY needs only. Because I love them, you make me look at what I would be doing by sending her away, and how selfish I'm being--

"I hope you can forgive yourself when you’ll hear her crying in the morning.”

--I have to take a low blow to you now because I feel like crud. If I can make you feel as guilty as I'm feeling maybe I'll get my way. I don't want to be the only one feeling guilty. It makes me look at what I'm doing. If I can bring you to my level, it evens my playing field--

"I just want things to go back to normal, but that takes time.” She said: “I don’t have time”

-- I don't WANT time, then this fanatasy would be over and I'd have to actually face what I've done. How I've betrayed everyone, how much I hurt people. TIME is my worst enemy right now. I think about this fantasy, and if I give it TIME just like every other daydream it will go away and I'll be faced with the cold hard truth that I almost gave up a family that loves me for a whim--


Much love,
Snuggles

hi guys,
yes Adrian I am 100% they meet every day. He didn't call me yesterday all day and called at 5:45 pm to tell me he is on his way home, when he came home he had that look again that's telling me "I met her again". Not to much talking for us last night. I fell a sleep on the couch, he covered me, asked me if I am tired, if I needed anythink. Then he went to sleep on his couch and that's it.
His mom phoned me this morning asking if things are better. I told her things are the same and he is still in love.She told me she is sorry because nobody in their family ever left their babies (they leave in a small city where it's very important what the other are saying) She made me promise that I will call her and told me she wants to come and visit in the summer. I said OK.
Anyhow Saturday is almost here, he will move out. Let's see how things will change.
I'll let you guys know.

LA,

Thank you for the translation.

I am not arguing with her at all anymore. I just say what I feel and believe and then let her do the fog talk.

Last night I messed up my left toe’s nail with the TV down in the basement. Don’t ask me how I managed to do that, the point is that it’s pretty bad. My WW came and took care of me. She brought bandages but I wrapped the toe myself. She asked me several times during the evening how I felt. This morning she asked me again. Everything was fine until we had that conversation in the car this morning.

I am at work now and trying to get focus on the job. Just another day…

Thank you for your post Snuggles
Come to think about this I just realized today during lunchtime that for the past few days I have not cried. And yes, I am more calm, even when she’s trying to make my life miserable. I seems that she finds pleasure in hurting me. I have learned, thanks to MB, to only say what I believe and avoid DJ. The fact that very often I tell her that what she says is her own opinion and I respect it, is driving her nuts.
I am more confident that this A will soon be over. I am not sure about the outcome but in a way am relaxed. Can’t explain why. Looking at my WW (mostly when she yells at me) my life spent together with her flashes in front of my eyes. I can see lots of moments of happiness. I believe that she sees them too but she refuses to accept them. I wonder if the OM moves to his apartment, would that change my WW’s behavior? Would she go nuts. My feeling is that my WW waits until her parents fly back to Romania and then she’ll make a move. I believe that I should move to plan B after in-laws are gone and before my WW would do/say aything.

now that your saying you did not cry I realised this is my second day without crying, I will try for teh hole week not to cry. I am thinking of going back to work sooner, it's realy busy and would keep my mind busy for sure. Will see. Maybe I ruined WH's plans for today, I visited him at work after lunch, he was at work, or maybe he just rearanged his day, who knows. He walked me to my car and in the parking lot he wanted to kiss me, he didn't know what to do, but I showed no interesed so he did not kiss me.
Adrian, I pushed the separation because I was telling to my self it has to be on my terms not on your WW terms or somebody elses. I was telling to my self I have to separate when I want it not when somebody else says so. I don't know if I should of waited or not. He is not ready as I can see because the papers are not signed.
We waited for so long, lets see how the moving well change things, something will happen for sure, I don't know what yet.

Why would DD1 cry every morning? Because she is being dropped off at daycare? My DD1 did that. Cried every morning. Broke my heart. But I was there to comfort her. I made her feel better when I would pick her up. She learned that it was a fun thing and that later she returned for mom and dad. Crying lasted maybe a week. After that is was "get the heck out of my way - I want to play with my friends!". Consoling out children is what parents do. That is why they need us close by. To make them feel safe and loved.

What I can't imagine is DD1 crying day and night because she does not know where mom and dad are and why she can't see them and nobody can explain it to her in a way she understands. That would really break my heart.

Your WW just doesn't want to hear DD1 crying - period. That is because it reminds her of how she is going to make DD1 cry if she divorces. DD1's crying is weighing heavily on her conscience. Too bad. Poor WW. How could you be so inconsiderate as to not send DD1 to Romania? Don't you have any consideration at all for how WW is feeling? Seriously! (You do realize I am being sarcastic don't you?)

adrianc, sometimes I read your conversations with your WW and I just want to slap you. She gives you so many great opportunities and you just let them pass with your mouth hanging open. You had her in the crosshairs and didn't pull the trigger. Shame on you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Maybe LA can send you a pocket translator or something so you can react faster and score from these opportunities. Worth a try.

As I've said before I wish I could be more spontaneous...
Matbe the pocket translator form LA would help me. Anyways, I have noticed that the fact that I am so calm when I talk to her makes her extremly nervous. It irritates her.

Do you think that her A is weighing as heavily on her consciens as the baby crying? Does she feel any guilt? I think she does. Tha same goes for the OM.

I am only waiting for the OM to leave on Saturday. In the mean time, business as usual.<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

adrianc,

I can't answer that question and you don't need to ask it. It is totally moot what WW feels. Don't even waste another thought on it. I am sure W feels guilt. I am sure WW does not. I am certain that she does not want DD1 around for her own (WW) benefit. She cares nothing about what is best for DD1. With DD1 out of the picture, it is just one less constant reminder of what she is doing. DD1 is at a critical age from my POV. She sees but does not comprehend. Right now her attitudes about herself are being formed. DD2 is clueless because she is so young. My DD1, remember EVERYTHING from about 2 years on. It is amazing. She forgets nothing.

traic,

You are absolutely right. DDs presence are affecting my WW’s A. If she has the chance to leave DDs with her parents to free herself, then she’ll do it in a blink of an eye. I am not saying that she doesn’t love DDs but now they are an inconvenience for her. I do believe the A is going to end soon.
I give it one more month. I also believe that my WW is going to end it.

In the mean time I am following the plan A and hoping for the best. DDs are doing just fine, they’re healthy and I love them a lot.

It makes sense, really. Waywards are running from pain, that pressure they feel inside. DDs are part of what she sees as pressure...everything looks like pressure. When you get so over done with what you feel is sacrifice and then what you want taken from you, that entitlement can only be fed by seeing the same amount of pressure everywhere...and making sure it overwhelms you.

Even when it isn't.

Adrian, I know you're not spontaneous--and you won't believe that I"m just the Monday morning quarterback and not spontaneous either. Will you promise to practice one thing for me?

"I am struggling in myself with resentment, WW. I've learned I create this feeling through my choices and am being very careful to not create new ones."

Just that. A disclosure, a sharing, a reflective truth...both for you and for her. I see you handling your resentment really well lately, Adrian. When the A ends, would you consider doing an exercise to help you with future resentment?

(Btw, we all make our own resentments...pile them up, thinking others do it to us...you are not alone...this isn't an attack or put down. One can't have an A without it, nor a good marriage with it.)

LA

LA,

Thank you for your post.

I was reading the five stages of grieving: Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression, Acceptance. I was wondering where I am. Anger, maybe? I am fluctuating between the last four. Hard to say which one fits me.

I sure would.

I gotta go back to work now.