You're welcome, Boby...you already knew this...may I ask you, in return, something? Why is it hard to resist contacting your WH...I could understand if it was your husband...but your WH?

LA

I guess I am keep forgeting to add the W in front of the H, my mind does it, I do it, can I control it? I have to. I will remind myself every single minute it's WH not H. Thanks for pointing this out.

Just exactly what relation are we talking about? I don't think you have a relation with WW so it is not likely that you damaged it. I think LA is spot on with what she wrote.

boby,

Think about your goal. Right now your goal is to bust up the A and get WH to come home. I know you want to communicate with him but you need to decide whether that helps your goal or hinders it. IMO it hinders it. He needs to miss something in order to want it back. Don't make things easy for him. He is contacting you to ease his conscience IMO. Don't let him. Avoid contact. Where is he getting these baby pictures if you have the baby and he is out of the house?

traic,
the pictures were taken Thursday and Friday, when he was at home still and he downloaded them Saturday morning.

he was taking pictures almost every night

So he is running out of pictures to send. That is good. He is quickly running out of "reasons" to contact you. He will keep trying - he will just have to get more creative at coming up with excuses. Keep him guessing. If you do talk to him, keep your communication basic. If he asks how the baby is doing, you say "fine". One word. He is trying to hang on, IMO so make it as painful for him as you can without being mean or angry. Make him believe you are moving on to a better life without him. Make him believe that you are not just sitting around waiting for him to come back. That will not hurt your situation. He needs to face the reality of what he has done. The sooner he does that, the sooner he will start making good decisions.

Funny, but I just rumble inside when I read you Traic...I hear you asking for deception to manipulate for a good cause, a just cause. I have to get my eyes checked.

Boby? Your WH left you and his son. He isn't present to see and feel either of you. His choice. Why would you connect him to either of you through words? Presence matters. He has the choice to return. You have the choice to allow that. Not manipulation...you are here, learning a lot, growing--you're not just sitting around waiting, are you? You don't sound like it.

I wouldn't do basic communication. I would deny information entirely. If he signs those papers, he won't have unlimited access with words with Boby, right? Won't have presence with his son at his whim...right now, he hasn't signed...won't sign. Like a trial run. No legal requirement for Boby to say a word to him...or to answer an email.

Her choice of boundary enforcement...she asked him not to call...said she would not speak to him. Intent matters. Growth happens when we choose our actions with proper intent. She is enforcing a boundary. Boundary of hers and of the marriage.

Now, Traic knows that this doesn't look a darn bit different from the outside looking in...same stuff, really. No confict in our advice, not really. Only intent matters.

Like Adrian's intent to eliminate DJs...right?

My wish for them both is to not be comforted, not to get back marriages based on manipulation, but choice. To be chosen. Respected and respectful. Takes two parts for each. Breaking our beliefs down is hard enough, when you slant the intent, we don't change our beliefs...we just change our actions.

LA

LA,

I think you misunderstand me to an extent. My only point is that WH needs to accept the consequences of his actions and boby is not assisting him to do that. Your explanation is quite right. I am more of a soldier. I don't feel boby ready to take this on in the right terms and I can't blame her.

I guess a simpler way of looking at it is I tell my DD not to touch the stove. You tell my DD not to touch the stove because it is hot and she will get burned and it will hurt.

All I am trying to do is remind boby that she needs to establish boundaries and that they be consistently enforced. I don't know that she is quite prepared to understand why she is doing that but again, I am just a soldier. WH has hurt boby. He is having an A, moved out, abandoned his wife and child. No need to be nice to him about it. Don't have to be mean either. I am not in Plan B so am no expert but that is basically where boby is right? I think she should study Plan B and adopt those guidelines with WH.

thank you guys for your posts,
I will try no contact at all for this week. I do want him to sufer and realize what he left behind. For 13 years we only been apart for a few days, we were always together, doing everything together, I want him to see what he gave up.
I would want to see his face when he is going "home" to his empty apartment.Is this happiness for him?
I am doing stuff - I went shopping today, I colored my hair, I did my nails.....This week I also have some lunches with my friends from work, so I don't just set around waiting, I go out and do stuff. pLus all the laundry and ironing I have to do lor the baby. I am having fun guys (I do cry too, sometimes. I guess I am only human

Crying is good for you. Go ahead. It is not only human - it is healthy.

LA

Last Sunday, things got pretty hot “when I asked her where she thought she was going to”
It’s actually a translation problem that makes it sound disrespectful in English. It was more like “where are you going”. Still disrespectful but not that bad.
My MIL told me:
“You should go to the hospital and have your head checked!”
My WW told me at one point of time:
“What until we are going to discuss about Monday, Thursday and Friday”
She was referring to my visitation days to see the girls. How would she know about this if not from browsing in my laptop’s files? I told her:
“You used my laptop, didn’t you?”
She said (satisfied): “An eye for an eye”

That was pretty much it.

Yesterday, my WW came back home at 6.45PM. She called before to tell me she was busy therefore she would be late. Around 7.30PM she asked me (sarcastically)
“Am I allowed to take DD1 to the grocery store?”
Me: “Why are you asking me that?”
My WW: “Isn’t that what you asked me yesterday?
Me: “No, yesterday I wanted to know that you were leaving with DDs.”

She disagreed and I just let it go. There was no point in arguing. After half an hour she pulled the car out of the garage. I asked her (since the grocery store is 1 min. walking distance) if she was planning to go somewhere else. She said “Yes, I am going to buy DD1 some shoes to wear at day care”
Me: “I’ll come with you.”
I notice that in that very second she become grumpy.
We left.
My WW: “Why aren’t you taking anymore DDs to your brother’s? Aren’t your parents missing them? Aren’t our DDs welcome there anymore?”
Me: “I didn’t have time for that. And DDs are very welcome there. As a matter of fact I spoke with my mother, my B and his W and they agreed that I could drop off DD2 over there every morning so my M would look after her until June 7th when the day care would accept her.”
We did the shopping. On our way home she didn’t say a word.
I was in the basement. She came there and for a fraction of a second she looked in my eyes. I could read the guilt in her eyes. She went to her F’s laptop. I bet she tried to contact the OM. I am not sure he’s got internet access in his apartment yet.
I gave together with my MIL a bath to DDs. After that I spent some time with DD2 then I took her to bad. My WW was already there. She complained the whole evening that she got a headache.

That was it. No talking with my WW after that. I am looking forward to my in-laws departure.

My WW’s attitude towards me is totally different than the OM’s attitude towards the OMW. She's mean, disrespectful, angry, etc. The OMW said that the OM was nothing like that. Why is that?

"My WW’s attitude towards me is totally different than the OM’s attitude towards the OMW. She's mean, disrespectful, angry, etc. The OMW said that the OM was nothing like that. Why is that? [/quote]

yes it is true that he never said a bad word to me, he only yeled at me once last week because he had the impression that is something wrong with the baby (not really yelling just rasing his voice). The rest if you would watch us with a web cam everything normal. If he was in a bad mood was sitting in front of the laptop without saying anything, never a bad word, or attitude, or anything that Adrian is mentioning about his WW.
Maybe LA can put some meaning to these.

Hey, boby...saw your post...and ran away.

LOL

It's true. You would like me to explain why WH is choosing to act differently than WW? Though they are in an A, they are seperate people.

I can guess. I can tell you what it looks like to me...I just fear that me judging will allow you both to judge more.

Judging sucks. It does.

What if...

WH knows how good he's had it? Too good...the very part that gives him resentment, entitled him to break it apart? What if he feels like a little boy, taken care of, dependent, scared with boby...and he takes the feeling like a real man from WW? He lives through others...you aren't doing this to him...but he may believe he is incapable, boby, of doing all that you do for him, for himself. He may appreciate what you do...yet resent it.

There's no blame here from me, boby. I DID this. Understand, I mothered the heck out of my DH, kids (all boys growing big and old), my coworkers...my own parents. I was rampant. I think you have a much better, more honest approach than I did. This is why I'm seeing what I'm seeing WH. He doesn't want to leave...his love for boby gives him security, acceptance (accepting him in the child role mostly), a comfort in a place in his heart that is sacred.

His perspective tells him he's a wimp. A woos. A little boy. His own putdowns in his head fed his resentment, which fed his entitlement, and as we know, we're adults, so this dynamic in a marriage lacks respect.

WW...

Adrian...I've come to this before, from each angle. I think I allowed myself to hold back to soften what I meant. I held your pain, I swear, in my own body at times. I let that get in the way of the message...

WW is angry, very angry, because she believes differently than boby's WH. She has been the giver, the sacrificer, the little girl who does the right thing for everyone else but herself. She strikes out at you and others (BIL), judges; constantly measuring what she gets versus what she gives. This isn't a character flaw--she's been doing this since she was four. She believes she has to be responsible, choose wisely, or end up destroyed by others. She doesn't realized that the very responsibility she takes on is giving her this crushing, suffocating feeling. And that the responsbility she takes on isn't hers. She doesn't know she's being disrespectful or destructive. She sees her life very differently.

This is why I believe the "grumpy face" is explained...see, because she believes she earns love...well, you'd better be happy with all her servitude and grateful for all her sacrifices. Though she is responsible for it, she sees it as others doing it to her. She judges so much, she constantly feels judged. She feels wrong and keeps trying to stop this feeling by doing more and more right. Until she says, "Enough!" in herself and gives her license to do even the worse crime, an A, because she justifies it to herself.

Her anger goes back long before you--she feels entitled to being a child and her parents didn't see it that way. She feels they put her in charge of their adult lives, she had to protect them from themselves, their feelings, which means, whatever they felt negative, well, they shouldn't, should they? She was in charge. She does this to you. She's doing it to your children.

She expects admiration, gratitude, appreciation, and believes you only love her because she earned it with her actions. Not that you just love her for her. Your grumpy face feels like a blow to her stomach, which gives her anger as a result. You're not doing that; she's feeling that, through her expectations.

I've encouraged and advised compassion...like humans can advise others to do that...because I believe, what she wants (not expects) is acceptance. Acceptance for being a human who is surviving, on her own journey, feeling all wrong and striving to do everything perfectly, so she can be safe...and accepted. She rejects because she feels rejected...not for her actions but HERSELF. That's what happens when parents aren't the adults. Cycle continues.

Judging others is harmful...like pouring acid on their souls. I've urged you to stop judging her...not because it will save your marriage or to manipulate her into choosing her actions differently. I urged it for you. And for her. To stop this subtle, nearly invisible attack; to accept, hold, care for, even in the very face of her wrong choices, and love anyway. Accept anyway. We accept all humans for their being...not their actions.

These are not reasons to accept actions, but selves. If you look at being human, especially your marriage, and remove blame...remove it because it is a judgment you have no right to make...then you can feel compassion (an intellectual choice linked to your emotions, not pity). Just because you believe you're a doormat, doesn't mean you are one. It is what you believe.

I feared you, Adrian, taking this to be an attack on you...you carefully live, too, like your wife...fearing to harm, do injury and be blamed. You share this in two very different ways, same belief. You earn love. Your DJs don't come from being a bad person, they come from blaming...yourself and others. You were taught that. Righteous blame--live carefully. You have a generous spirit, a joy grimed over with carefulness. If you are both earning love in your marriage...which gives you strict guidelines and ways to behave, then how can you be accepted for you?

This is why you can't get past your wife being with another man. This is the symbol of wrecking love, devotion...security in your very center. Because you base love on actions, you can't see yourself choosing to love anyway. Change your belief, Adrian. Each person is as God made them. They are. Before they spoke a word or chose an action. Love those beings. Let your spirit fly and love them. Stop judging...there's no protection in it, only destruction. Allow that you cannot cause, control or cure others. They do that. You cause, control and cure yourself. God gave you that limit. You are separate and equal to everyone on the planet.

Know this. Let others have their thoughts, feelings and belief...listen as you are so good at doing, and just repeat...hand them back to them, showing your care, and let go your reactions. Choose to act, not react.

God is working in yours and boby's lives. He wants to reach you, and he knows how much you've been reaching for him, Adrian. He knows. He wants you to do this because he is your Father. He gave to you the respect he asking you to give yourself and others. He created you long before you were born...gave you these limits of responsibility along with the freedom to choose your life, your journey. He gave you Love...your choice. He cannot choose for you, nor can you choose for others. He made you with the freedom to not love him, know him or think about him. Pure choice. He rejoices when you make that choice, because then it is from you, not designed in, in anyway.

That's respect.

That's the human life. You can love, forgive and rejoice when your WW ends the A and returns to you--you could not do any of this if you believed you manipulated her into it, made her do it with Plan A, threat of Plan B or any other intent on your part. Her choice. She remains the gift God created. So does WH. Your pain clouds all this, understandably so. Humanly so. Lift up, Adrian.

Lift up.

LA

LA,

I read your post. I am speechless. I have to read it again.

We were supposed to go to the dentist’s office today for cleaning. I thought she was going to pick up DD1 from daycare since WW is leaving work at 3.30PM. I would leave at 5.00PM sharp, go straight home pick up WW and drive to the dentist’s office. That would save us some time. At 2.00PM she called me and told that she wouldn’t make it home so she would meet me at the mall. That really pissed me off big time. She asked me:
“What time are you going to be at the mall?”
Me: “I don’t know; I have to pick up DD1, take her home and then drive to the mall.”
My WW: “See you there.”
I was so angry the whole afternoon so after I met her at the mall I was not able to talk to her while I was driving. I only answered her questions. That was it.

Adrian,

Why did you agree to the plan if you weren't enthusiastic?

:::ducking:::

"I hear you are choosing to change the plan. You cannot make it home. You want to meet me at the mall. Let's compromise...you pick up DD1 and I'll drive to the mall straight from work."

This is how you create your own resentments. Speak up. The way you spoke up was to go her route. Your choice. Your power.

Anger is a secondary emotion...what was your first emotion, that split second one that came before anger?

LA

She would’ve had to drop off DD1 home before meeting me at the mall.
My first emotion was that she was lying to me, that she was either going to meet the OM or spend the time on the internet working with him on the website. This time she didn't even tell me that she was busy at work. Simply "I won't make it home." Was that disrespectful? I felt totally ignored and treated like garbage.

"She would’ve had to drop off DD1 home before meeting me at the mall."

I'm blonde. I'm still not seeing the problem. She could have done that, no?

You felt deceived as your first emotion? Sit with your eyes closed and go back to the moment of the phone call. Be there. We believe we're being deceived, not feel it.

Tell me the feeling, the emotion.

No, it wasn't disrespectful.

You believed you were ignored and treated like garbage.

This is part of the journey--not a test to pass. This is valuable learning about yourself.

Tell me the emotion.

LA

If she had done that then it would’ve driven home which was the issue. No time for her to drive home. It doesn’t matter anymore.
My heartbeat went up. Then my whole body felt weak followed by anger and frustration.

What I don’t understand is why I couldn’t talk to my WW while I was driving the car. I just couldn’t start a conversation. She got upset because of that. She didn’t say anything about it but I noticed it. I only answered her questions. After we got home she asked me if I wanted to eat. I said yes and she warmed up the food for me.

Today, I am still angry. She called me this morning to ask me about DD2 and I was not very friendly over the phone. I did answer all the questions; I wasn’t impolite but didn’t have the best mood for a conversation.

Just checking something... it's entirely possible that I missed it...

Boby, did you write a Plan B letter?

John

Adrian,

Your heart rate went up, you felt weak--fear. Does fear feel like that to you?

You felt fear from the belief that your WW was going to see OM...so anger came at you right away.

"told that she wouldn’t make it home so she would meet me at the mall."

"I guess you'll be telling your mother or father to walk over and get DD1."

I am not handing you words you should have said...I am attempting for you to see where you create your resentments...which render you mute from anger, fresh betrayal.

Say No, Adrian. Calmly, firmly..."I fear you are seeing OM today. I feel anger and betrayal right now."

That's it. It is powerful to choose to open your mouth and speak. Not to withdraw, punish others for what is half yours. You do not know her reasons. Your feelings are yours, need to be shared, not for her to fix, but for her to know.

"What I don’t understand is why I couldn’t talk to my WW while I was driving the car. I just couldn’t start a conversation."

Do you have a lifelong pattern of responding to fear in this way? Pulling in, closing up, as if pain was being thrown at you?

Or do you have beliefs that tell you, If I'm a man, I cannot fear. Fear is for the weak. Fear is vulnerable. To show fear is to be controlled.

I'm not going to chide you for saying you couldn't instead of you chose not to...I believe you couldn't volunteer a thing. You denied yourself your power, your choice, entirely. You did that...why?

LA

Yes.

I’ve said that before. Her reaction was:
“You see, you don’t trust me. You’ll never be able to trust me. That’s why I told you there was nothing that could be done to fix our M”

Yes, pretty much. I am not much of a talker when this happens.

I wish I could answer this.