I trust you'll answer me someday, Adrian. You don't have to answer now. Food for thought, as they say.

"I’ve said that before. Her reaction was:
“You see, you don’t trust me. You’ll never be able to trust me. That’s why I told you there was nothing that could be done to fix our M”"

So, what are you saying here, Adrian? That you've tried what I showed and didn't get the results you want? Why speak if you won't get the outcome you want? I'm sorry, I don't understand.

I want to.

WS say this...H just told me in the car on Sunday, "Yeah, I believed you would always hold it against me. I didn't see how you couldn't."

That belief is strong...he's still a little taken aback when what he thought for sure would happen didn't.

See why I chide you on predicting the future? We don't know...can't know. It's our future.

"“You see, you don’t trust me. You’ll never be able to trust me. That’s why I told you there was nothing that could be done to fix our M”"

Just for the record, this is a highlight of abuse. Telling you what only you decide. Do not choose to do this any more to her; know when she's doing it to you.

"I do not trust you right now. I hear you. I understand why you would choose to believe that I would not choose to ever trust you again, too. I can see where that would help me justify continuing my affair. I know that trust is a choice; half mine and half yours. I don't doubt mine. I trusted you for 12 years. I will choose to trust you again."

Again--this is not an exercise in I told you so...say this...do this...Please get that I am showing you your power...not of language, but to have your fear and speak anyway. Change the image in your mind from pain being flung at you to rising within you. That's where it comes from. Change the visual...open to state that pain as it wells. Then you see it, recognize it and confirm it. It will recede...not by anyone else's reactions, but BY your choice to do this--acknowledge your own fear, anger, pain, joy, relief, embarrassment, frustration...and be darn sure to see where you choose to create resentment...take that poison...

Half of the feeling of betrayal is your own. That's the half I want to aid you in stopping. Halve your pain.

On your side. Won't change with whatever you do, don't do; say or don't say. You are. You matter.

LA

Thank you LA. I think I understand where you're coming from.

From another thread...

Mortarman made this point:

"Dazed,

Since you are still in Plan A...I have a question.

Why have you not exposed the latest contact with the OM? Not in an angry way, of course. Just a matter-of-fact statement that you know that she has been lying to you and that she has been at the OM's house. You dont have to give facts, or how you know. She knows she was there!

Plan A is NOT hiding the truth. It also is not going off on her or DJing. Just a statement of fact and then continue with your mantra.

Addictions are tough. If you allow her to continue in silence, then she will continue. She must know that everytime she screws up and contacts the OM...that you know. Darkness and silence have no place in Plan A.

Your silence is enabling her."

This isn't confrontation "I know what you're doing!" It is "I" statments "I know you were with OM today. As long as contact continues, the affair continues."

You can listen and repeat their responses, boby and Adrian. That's respectful. You know what you know.

Just something to think about.

LA

Last time when my WW was working on the website I told her that she stabbing me again in my heart by doing that. She simply turned her back at me and continued working on it for 3 more hours.

It seems that she has no limits. She knows she’s hurting me and yet she deliberately does it with no remorse.

When I told her that I knew she had contact with the OM. She yelled at me:
”How do you know?”
I said: “I know that just by looking at you. You don’t know how to lie.”
My WW sarcastically laughed at me.

Nothing seems to bother her. Last Sunday she yelled at me: “I will never give him up.”

OK. My question is: Since she is not hiding this from me, how do I approach this? How often should I tell her that her A is bothering me? I understand that if I don’t say anything she will just continue with it in silence. But if she totally ignores me, then what do I do?

Entitlement stops all empathy because her own resentments for all the pain she believes you caused her gets in the way.

She crossed your boundary and you spoke, your first enforcement. She turned away from you and continued. She crossed the boundary again. What was your next enforcement? Your pain is yours. You're not owning it.

When she does, you feel...that does not translate to mean she is making you hurt. You informed her of your feeling. Half of your pain was believing you can stop her from hurting you by speaking, sharing your pain. The other half is from her choice to not believe or value your pain. Her choice. Not in your control.

Could you have taken the laptop quickly, without a struggle, and shut it? Placed it outside your front door, calmly, gently? "I choose not to allow affairs in our house."

"It seems that she has no limits. She knows she’s hurting me and yet she deliberately does it with no remorse." Do not DJ, Adrian, even with careful phrasing. You believe she has no limits. That hurts you, choosing that belief. Your pain comes from the knowledge that you don't know her limits--fear from the unknown. Half of your pain is coming from this...inside you. Not her.

She cannot take away your choices. You choose.

When she yells at you, saying "How do you know?" Say, "Yelling is abuse."

"How do you know??" not yelling.
"We both know."

When you said “I know that just by looking at you. You don’t know how to lie.”

I would have said to you, "You're abusing me. Stop."

When she has contact, she continues the A. You know this. Re-expose...expose, finally, to work, everywhere. Tell her you know. Does not depend on what she does but what you believe. By not exposing to work before, you have compromised your Plan A...OM has moved out of his home. To us, we know he's married. Now she can spin that he's separated, no crime, really.

You believe she ignores...that's a DJ. She does not react how you expect her to--that does not mean she's ignoring. She is choosing contact. Her choice. Then you make your choice.

Have you stated how you're dealing with your resentments? How you realize you create them...how to get rid of them? What are DJs, what you're doing, believing...working on?

This isn't to manipulate, but to inform. Not to get an outcome your way, but do what is honest and open.

We've been over all of this. What are your choices? You have a thousand...you aren't choosing most of them. You go from Plan A to divorce, from save the marriage to stop your pain. Two extremes. Your choice.

Choose Plan B, Adrian...ditch it. You're done. Like you say, why learn? Will learning stop the pain? Yes, it will. Why not stop it sooner? You know it can't be stopped that way. Why not bite back, hurt back? Isn't that what you want, Adrian? Isn't that why you DJ? Is this not the pattern of your marriage?

Who can act like they hurt the less wins?

LA

Hi guys,
I was out, just came in. I read all your post.
Thanks LA for your post from yesterday. Do you know us?
Dewt I did not write a plan B letter.
Adrian if WW "will never give him up" did you asked her wat she wants from you, why is she not out the door yet. I am not pregnant anymore, what are the excuses now? Her parents beeing here? they were here the night she did not come home, didn't stop her to spend the night at the hotel.

PS. He phoned again today, left a message saying "I just phoned to see how is the baby" I did not returne his call.

A Plan B letter is an essential part of Plan B. It is basically a love letter, but it explains why you are not returning his calls and what he has to do to come back 'home'. There are samples around... I'm sure it wouldn't be to hard to dig up a link for you.

If you aren't in Plan B, but just putting some distance for this week, you probably don't need a letter.

Being a 'man', in the typical sense of the word, I am the first to admit that we can be a little bit... uh... dense. Often we don't 'get it' unless it's spelled out for us. In easy to understand words.

A Plan B letter links behaviours and consequence in a loving, non-judgemental but at the same time firm and clear manner.

I don't know if the time is right for you to Plan B, but if you decide to do it, you should do it by the book. Harley's methods are effective as heck, but often when we try to modify them, our results aren't as good.

I won't be at the computer for the next little bit, hopefully someone else can help out with some more Plan B info...

Take care. I'm really rooting for both of you, Adrian and Boby, and for your marriages and families.

John

I am waiting for my in-laws to leave. Then I believe it will be the time for plan B.

dewt, my WH told me he cannot be with me right now, he loves her and wants to be with her. It's not that he doesn't love me but I guess love her more, I don't know. He doesn't want to work on our marriage, I am not sure what he want, does he know what he wants, I don't think so. So for me to write a plan B letter at this time, I don't know if it's necessary. I asked him not to call, just to take a little break, for us to think about what we want. Is one week to short?

Adrian, April 27 feels so far away, be strong until then

Ok... that's not Plan B. But that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with it.

I do think you should do the research into Plan B, though... you may decide to use it and if it comes to that, you wanna make sure you are effective!

Take care,

J

I am planing to go for plan B after my in-laws are leaving (April 25th). My question is (and I've asked it before) what do I do if my WW doesn't want to leave the house?

dewt, I don't have to much time to research anything, I care for my 2 month old son all by myself, but thank you for your advice, if I will have time I will look into plan B

boby,

I think you are essentially in Plan B although it was forced on you.

I am looking at page 79 of my SAA book under the heading of

"Plan B: Avoid Contact with the Wayward Spouse until the Affair has ended"

I think you can find everything you need on this website with a little reading. Hopefully LA or someone else can post the links here. I am having internet problems at the moment. You should write WH a letter and you can get help with that here.

traic, if we sign the separation papers next week, then we are officialy separated so I don't think it will be any plan B.

LA,
help me out here - he phoned again today and left a message - why is he phoning if I asked him not to?

boby,

I am no expert but I think you can be divorced and still be in Plan B. You HAVE to be separated to be in Plan B. Read up on it.

traic, will see what tomorrow brings. You guys think about me tomorrow I want to be strong and no matter what he tells me I don't want to cry in front of him.

He phoned again today just left the same message. I did not return his call.

Boby,

Same question...same answer I gave you before. Read back. Reasons don't change...people choose differently. He's not.

LA

I was out of time today, getting a load of stuff ready at work for my vacation...preparing for one can REALLY give you the feeling of needing one...so I apologize if my response, Boby, was short or seemed critical.

I really did mean that I can only answer the same question with the same answer. Nothing has changed. You feel every minute tick by, and I harped to stay present, I know, so I recognize you feel like where is the difference now that you haven't spoken with him in four days, right?

Or is it five?

I recognize that is a first in your marriage. Very painful and difficult--that's why you want to know more, now, right away...to ease yourself and to know your choices make a difference in your WH.

I know why you asked...I just didn't have a different answer, 'k?

LA

Oh, and let me know if you need some quotes in your arsenal for the big day tomorrow. Hope you're here.

LA