I'm eagle15's wife, I'm sure many of you know who I am. I have tried to post before but for some reason it didn't work. So, here I'm trying again. My husband tells me that I'm not trying to work on the marriage/family. I interupt him/have attitude when I try to speak with him. I get the the same stuff, but it is fine when that happens. I have apologized to him and to our children for my affair. He tells me that I don't seem like I'm remorseful about it. It's funny when our children are asked about whether I'm here and working on the family they see me doing things for the family and time with my husband. He wants me to be honest with him but gets mad when I am honest. He says that I have an attitude, when I'm being direct and raising my voice so that he can hear me. When I explain that to him time and time again he says he understands but still gets upset when we have discussions. I don't have a job right now so I'm taking care of cleaning the house and going through moving boxes not yet unpacked. As in many of the books and readings say to do. My husband doesn't approve of this because as he tells me that he could hire a maid. I'm just trying to help around here with something since I'm not financially supporting the family until I find a job here.
I will close for now and hopefully this will work.

Eagle15too,

Welcome to MB I think you will find it interesting and useful to you.

I don't have a lot of time today,but I wanted to mention one thing. You said
Don't speak louder, speak softer when he is not hearing you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> It really will work, and his defenses won't come up. You also said you are NOT making any money now, but if I recall correctly you just retired from the AF, so you are in fact bringing income to the family, yes?

There is more to say, but please keep posting and asking questions. Your H is very hurt right now, and as you clearly have noticed pretty sensitive about things. I would strongly urge you to read Surviving an Affair by Harley and His Needs Her Needs also by Harley. They are both easy reading although the concepts can be subtle.

Reading those will do two things. It will familiarize you with the terminology, but it will also show you the patterns that couples trying to rebuild a good marriage fall into. These patterns can be avoided and your marrige can be something very special if you decide that is what you want.

I am sure many more will post but Fri's and weekends are sort of slow here.

God Bless,

JL

Have you read the chance to read about some of the feelings of a betrayed spouse. Steve Harley told me that people who have both been betrayed and lost a child find the betrayal more damaging than losing the child. That should put into perspective what your BS is feeling right now. This requires at some time that you accept what you did as your mistake and no one elses regardless of unmet needs or other issues. Your BS needs time to cope with his feelings. Go slow together. I do admire that you are back and trying to rebuild a new and better marriage. Your BS will eventually get to the point that he can listen to the honesty w/ out getting upset. It may be too soon right now. The two of you can make this work and it will be worth it I have no doubt.

I don't know how to insert a link yet, but go to the link below and read the chapter about true remorse and its purpose and intent.

http://www.lovematters.net/chapter10.pdf#search='true%20remorse'

Ms. Eagle15:

I was almost finished with maybe the most excellent post that I have ever done (lol) when I hit something wrong and lost everything. I guess that shows me that it is not a good thing to be long winded.

I will try and summarize in this post. The example of talking softer rather than louder is a phenomenal suggestion. You will be amazed at how this works. At first it may piss him off that you are not getting cranked up at his discussion, but in the long run, it is a definate LB to have an angry outburst and you are early in recovery so AO's are likely on a fairly regular interval. The key to keeping recovery moving in the right direction is that only one of you LB's at any given time...no all out brawls.

I am a BS who has made serious progress in rebuilding our marriage in conjunction with the efforts of my FWW. However, it was not a walk in the park...especially close to D-Day. Dave Carder in "Torn Asunder" has an excellent chart on the recovery process for a BS. Feelings of insecurity, anger, resentment, confusion are all natural reactions to someones discovery of an affair. When the A is ongoing, all the energy has to be directed towards getting the affair to end. Without that and NC, recovery has no chance. But what happens often is that the BS has expended all their energy in the process. They have fought the good fight, and the WS is back home presumably to work on the marriage and they feel they have won the battle. Truth is, the may have won the battle but they still have to win the war. Too often, at this point in recovery the BS EXPECTS their WW to be there and carry the burden of rebuilding the marriage. They want their WW to have to pay for what they have done. This may be a natural thought process but it will not allow the marriage to rebuild. If the BS wants to commit to rebuilding the marriage, he or she must be willing to carry the entire load for a while and not expect anything in return. That is a heavy load and one that most of us do not think we can pull.

On the other hand, many WS especially FWW's whose affair was driven or rationalized by entitlement often are so immersed in their own confusion, fog and pain that they don't even recognize what their spouses needs or feelings are and even though efforts are being made by taking on responsibility, writing a NC letter, getting back to the routines of married life, at least subconsciously they believe that their BS should be the one who is trying to meet their needs and understand their agony. After all, it was the BS actions or lack thereof that drove the WS to have to find a way to have their needs met outside of the marital environment.

The truth is that although both of those attitudes are prevalent at least subconconciously, they are counterproductive to the rebuilding and recovery process. The chart that I discussed from Torn Asunder almost exactly mirrors the chart of the development of an affair. Mr. Carder's contention is that true recovery only occurs when the emotional intensity of the BS has reached the same peak as the emotional intensity of the WS during the affair. This indicates to me that early on in the recovery process, there are many battles that have to be won before the war is over. Here are a few tips for both of you that I think will help you get moving in the right direction.

Eagle15:

1) Start keeping a journal. Write down every day what things that made you most happy with your FWW and what things you wished would improve. Then talk to her about these and discuss (not argue) over why this is important to you and how that you percieve she could meet this need.

2) Acknowledge her changes, however, small and her workthrough her failures without causing additional resentment between the two of you.

3) Make sure that you understand the message of her affair, the environment that allowed the affair to blossom and what needs were being met in the A that you were not meeting. Work hard everyday to try and meet those needs better.

Ms. Eagle15:

1) You cannot begin to imagine how an affair destroys the BS's security, self esteem and confidence. Understand that this can only come back after time but you must do your part by assuring him that you recognize your mistake, you own your mistake and although you can't take it back, you will do whatever is in your power to make up for that.

2) Make radical honesty and transparancy a priority. Those are two things that are absent in all relationships in which a LTA occurs. Bringing those qualities to your new relationship will go a long way in building your new relationship and assuring your H that you are there now. Answer all questions he has without reservation but understand that there will be some questions that just don't have an answer. If you can't answer a question, explain that you are trying to answer that question yourself without much progress and then hold his hand and reassure him that you are there for him.

3) Communicate with your spouse. Tell him your true feelings. Don't hold back anything, but tell him the negative things in a soft voice without the piercing blow of an angry outburst. You must be open with him.

The recovery ride is a rollercoaster. Expect the sharp drops and curves even when it looks like smooth sailing. Remember, marriage rebuilding is an evolution, not a revolution. The marriage did not deterioate to the point that allowed you to rationalize an affair overnight, consequently it is not going to be rebuilt to a point of true intimacy overnight either.

NT

Welcome to marriagebuilders. I'm so happy you have come here. It can only be a good sign.

Here is what Dr. Harley says about where the two of you are right now:

But because most affairs do not end with a choice to permanently separate from a lover, the recovery stage does not usually begin with much zeal. Instead, it begins with bitterness. If the affair dies a natural death (the spouse and lover simply drift away, or the lover ends it), the unfaithful spouse wakes up to find himself or herself still married, but married to a spouse who is very upset about everything that happened. How does one go about getting that kind of marriage restored?

It's very common for the spouse having the affair to feel unremorseful. And it's common for the victimized spouse to feel that it wasn't his or her fault, either. So when an affair has ended, and a couple is ready to rebuild their relationship, neither wants to take responsibility. They both look at each other as having been very selfish, and they look at themselves as having gone the extra mile, with nothing to show for it. Why apologize for something that was the other person's fault?

There is a sense in which an apology is not really necessary. The only thing that's necessary is for the couple to take appropriate steps to rebuild their relationship. But an apology can certainly make taking those steps much easier.

S.C.'s wife is not sorry she had an affair. In fact she feels that it did her some good. She "finally did something for herself." That sure sounds like her Taker, doesn't it (if you don't know what a "Taker" is, be sure to read "The Giver and the Taker" in my Basic Concepts). Her Taker is only concerned about her happiness, and not the least bit concerned about S.C.'s happiness. It was her Taker that was doing the talking for her, telling S.C. that he had it coming, after what he had put her through with all of his drinking.

Taker's don't ever apologize. But they demand it of others. It was S.C.'s Taker that wanted an apology from his wife. It remembered that S.C.'s Giver had once told his wife he was sorry for his neglect of her while he was drinking, and now it was time for his wife to apologize for her offense. But at this point in their relationship, neither of their Givers are anywhere to be found, so there is little hope for repentance.

But now that the affair is over, does it do S.C. any good to try to pry an apology out of his wife? At this point, her feelings for S.C. are not the best, and any effort on his part to try to make her feel guilty will do nothing but withdraw more love units from an already bankrupt Love Bank. His best approach is to ignore the past, and focus on what he can do to start depositing love units. The more love units he deposits, the more her Taker will drop back and allow her Giver some room to maneuver. In fact, if her Giver shows up, she may surprise S.C. with an apology for the affair without him even asking for one.

S.C.'s best course of action is to create the best marriage possible by learning how to meet his wife's emotional needs, overcome Love Busters and create a unified lifestyle where neither of them would have second secret lives that can grow into affairs.

But in spite of what I've just said, I encourage each spouse, if possible, to override their Takers' instincts and apologize to the other anyway. The unfaithful spouse should apologize for having betrayed a valuable trust, for having hurt in the worst way possible the very one he or she promised to love and cherish. The victimized spouse should also apologize for having failed to meet important emotional needs that the unfaithful spouse had been promised at the time of marriage.

Why do I encourage an apology when the Takers are adamantly opposed to offering them? Because an apology is really in order (they did, in fact, hurt each other), and it also helps settle down the Takers, as long as they both apologize. S.C.'s wife knows that she did the wrong thing when she had an affair. It's her defensive Taker that will not let her apologize. But if she could let her defenses down for one moment and honesty express her Giver's regret for what she had done, it would give S.C. some encouragement.

But once apologies are made, a couple should move on to the business of rebuilding their relationship, and not dwell on the mistakes of their past. As much as you may want to talk about the affair or about any other mistake made, remember that every conversation on those subjects withdraw love units. And a Love Bank must first be overflowing with love units before you are in a position to waste any.

In C.W.'s case, he is close to having traversed the first two stages of marital recovery after an affair. He has completed the first stage by being completely separated from his lover, and he is near the end of the second stage where he is coming to the end of withdrawal from his dependence on her. Granted, he is still depressed, but part of his depression comes from living alone, and having a feeling of hopelessness trying to get his wife's cooperation to restore their marriage.

I think that both couples are ready for the third stage of marital recovery after an affair: Rebuilding their relationships. They all seem to be willing to negotiate, and are willing to let their spouses meet their emotional needs. That means they are no longer in the state of emotional withdrawal and are firmly fixed in the state of emotional conflict (if you do not understand the terms "withdrawal" and "conflict" see "Negotiating in the Three States of Marriage"). So any attempt to make their spouses happy is likely to have its desired effect -- love units will be deposited.

These two marriages are now in a position to be restored if the spouses take the correct steps. In some ways, both couples now have the same opportunity to solve their marital problems as they did before the affairs took place. And if they had done it then, they would have avoided all of the pain that the affairs inflicted on them. They are now where most bad marriages are, burdened by Love Busters and the failure to meet important emotional needs. So if they can toss off those burdens, they will not only create the marriage they need, but also eliminate the risk of another affair.

The steps these couples should take to restore their marriages are described in my book, Fall in Love, Stay in Love. It explains how couples can identify and overcome the Love Busters, anger, disrespect and demands. It also shows couples how to meet each other's emotional needs. But most importantly, it teaches couples how to create compatibility -- how to create an integrated lifestyle where dishonesty and secret second lives are eliminated.

The solution to most marital problems requires spouses to override their Taker's instincts. Doing what you feel like doing works great when you are in love, because the Giver calls the shots. But when you are not in love, and your Taker is in charge, your instincts will make matters much worse. The Taker wants you to get angry, be disrespectful and make demands. All of those Love Busters withdraw love units and also create defenses that make depositing new ones almost impossible.

Both C.W. and S.C. find their spouse's Love Busters coming between them and the restoration of love. But I'm sure that both of them are dishing them out as well.

So the first step in the restoration of marriage after an affair is to lay down the weapons. Each spouse must make a concerted effort to avoid anger, disrespect or demands at all costs. Every time they are together, they must do whatever it takes to make the relationship safe for each other.

Once they can guarantee each other safety, by protecting each other from Love Busters, they are ready to learn to meet each other's emotional needs. But they will have to learn to negotiate all of these issues with the Policy of Joint Agreement in mind. They must begin by guaranteeing each other that the cost of a great marriage will not require personal sacrifice. It will only require a willingness not to do anything that would hurt each other. They must understand that everything they will be doing in the future must take each other's feelings into account, and safety will be the guiding rule from now on.

With personal safety as the condition for negotiation, and enthusiastic mutual agreement as the goal, a couple is ready to rebuild. But that environment of safety may take a while to create. It may be the very first skill that they will need to learn before they can negotiate satisfactory.

Getting beyond this first step -- setting a safe stage for negotiating -- may take some careful thought and planning, but one thing is for sure, negotiations that are not safe or pleasant will not give you a solution to your problem.

The second step for successful negotiation is to present the conflict to each other with each spouse trying to understand and respect the other's perspective. C.W. has a need for recreational companionship. That need may have been partially responsible for his affair, and he would like his wife to meet that need so he will not be tempted in the future. But his wife feels that their time should be spent together as a family, and if he wants to be with her, he must also include their daughters. They must both understand and respect each other's feelings about this issue if they expect to resolve it.

The third step is to brainstorm without criticizing each other's tentative solutions to the problem. They should write them all down and give themselves a chance to think about them without dismissing any of them right away.

The fourth step is to choose the solution that they both feel enthusiastic about following. In most conflicts, one of the solutions will jump out as the right one, especially if both Learn More!

"Surviving an Affair"
spouses have given themselves some time to think about the entire list and about their conflicting perspectives on the problem. If no solution meets the criterion for "enthusiastic agreement, keep brainstorming.

The purpose of these four steps is to solve marital conflicts in a way that deposits love units, and avoids withdrawing them. In other words, the goal is for you and your spouse to be in love with each other. That goal is worth more than any specific decision you will make. But, you will discover, if you keep that goal in mind, your decisions will be incredibly wise because they will have the combined wisdom of both you and your spouse. That's the secret to martial reconciliation and compatibility -- to be able to resolve conflicts together in a way that meets each other's emotional needs and accommodates each other's feelings.

One final thought: How much time should be spent each week trying to reconcile? My advice is to spend as much time with each other as you can. A vacation away from friends and children is ideal because it gives you an opportunity to give each other much needed undivided attention. But remember, consistency is also important. You can't expect a three weeks vacation followed by abandonment to lead to reconciliation. So, I suggest that you spend a minimum of 15 hours each week with each other, regardless of how much time you spend in other weeks. And the time should be spent without friends, family or children, learning to meet each other's most important emotional needs.

I have a retirement coming in, but it is half of what I was making before. He says that we can make it if I stay but, if we divorce then he had to sell everything(motorcycle,car, house etc). I have asked to see the amount we owe on bills, but H says that I'm not doing my part so whu should he do what I ask.

I have read Surviving an Affair and started to read His needs/her needs. He asked why am I reading that book, I told it's the next one to read. He was upset because I had a little attitude and he told that I need to read Surviving and affair since NOTHING took.

I had a job offer but,it's a night job so the family decided that they don't want me to take the job. I don't want to work nights either, but it's a foot in the door for better jobs down the road that are very close to the house.

Hmmm. He won't let you know the financial status of the family? Has he read the MB stuff?

What made some of you change your minds to stay? Husband says that many of you were ready to kill their mates. I have nothing in my love bank for him. I have nothing but disdain for him. He is a controlling man and has been for years. I have always been a pleaser, the older I got the more I saw that I didn't have to please everyone. If you like me great, if you don't that's ok too. With being away from the family for awhile I was able to make simple decisons on my own, major one's we talked about together. If he didn't approve then, again I wouldn't do it. He still has control even miles away. I have become a more confident person, happy in my skin and me; except with husband he still to break me down. We have discussed this and our opinions differ.

I love my kids very much and want to be with them. I don't like to be around huband. I'm less stressed and more comfortable when he is a work and dread when it's time for him to come home. This weekend I played games with our kids and this upset him because I wasn't on this website checking the responses or reading the books. This upset our son because he said it was his fault becausehe asked me to play games. We have established time for alone time per the 15 hour requirement. We do 2 hours during the week and 3 hours on the weekend. I did play games with the kids and asked him to play with us, but he was on the computer on this website. I didn't neglect the 3 hours because I kept bringing up what we wanted to do for that time and he didn't have any ideas.

What do you do for Valentine's day when you don't want romance or sex? Valentine's day is for the one's that you love and I don't. He wants flowers, candles, lenerie and sex.

Yep, he has read everything and almost quote them.

And he won't let you know what is going on financially?

To clarify about the playing games our son said that it was his (our son's) fault because he asked me to play a game. Husband viewed posting and said that he read it as it was him(husband) who said it was his(son's) fault. I told our son that it wasn't his fault while in a family meeting and husband spoke to our son in his room before bedtime.

He has given me a print out of what's going out, but what I had asked for is what we owe on our bills for pay off. I gave him plenty of time to research. He gave me a print off of what is going out monthly today. I have all of the bills collected and will make a list of the balances so we can pay off a couple.

Ask your husband if he would mind refraining from reading your thread. Or at least not commenting on it. This is not a jail where you do your time. For you to get any help for anything you have to feel free to tell how you feel.

Hopefully some of the ex WW's will chime in here. There are lots of them that are now very happily married with a much better relationship than before.

Thanks for your thoughts. He wants me to post but, complains that I'm not telling the truth. It's a damned if your do/don't situation. I don't comment on his posting or am I in the room when he is on the website. I feel that it is his time to post. He looks at the website at work and at home.

Explain to him that the best way for the two of you to get through this is to each have your own thread.

We have threads here where both the husband and wife post, but it tends to be problematic. We don't need to hear "the truth". We need to hear how you feel about things.

Keep your thread your own, and tell things from your point of view. I understood very well about playing games with your son. Your husband doesn't need to fill me in on anything.

This should be such a happy time in your life, and I want it to be that way for you. You've finally retired after serving your country and making sacrifices. You deserve to enjoy yourself.

In regards to what made me stay, I guess when it came down to it, it may have just been easier for me to stay than to leave. Divorce is very complicated. Deep down, I also knew that I loved my FWW even though what she had done in the past was very hurtful and her continued deciet for all those years had really kind of destroyed anything left in my love bank. I also felt like that if I left, I was penalizing my kids for something my FWW did. That was not fair to them. I was ready to leave and start over if she was not willing to commit to total and radical honesty.

Although once we got past the early hurt and anger that comes with D-Day, we both found our love again fairly quickly, it was less than what I probably expected as a BS. In many ways, I expected her to put forth more of an effort than I saw she was making, while I seemed to be making all the changes. It was only after we had several months of radical honesty and several near breakdowns in the process that we finally got on the same page in terms of mutual expectations.

I don't want to seem like I am only taking your side in this matter because the reality the only way this recovery is going to happen is if you both get to the point where you mutually agree to work together regardless of how difficult that is instead of continuing the finger pointing. However, there are a couple of things that I read into your sitch that I think Eagle15 must be aware of and try to change.

First, there should be no secrets in a marriage. This is what allowed the A to start to begin with. Him keeping anything regarding the financial situation and what payoffs, etc. are is not in keeping with the radical honesty policy. This has to be corrected immediately.

Secondly, I just get a feeling from reading both of your previous posts that Eagle15 is somehow seeking some justice to penalize you for your actions. This is perfectly normal and will take time to work through. But there is no justice for a spouse having an A. If the relationship is always going to come back to the BS being able to justify any of his/her actions because of mistakes you made in the past, that is probably when that serious consideration needs to be made on seperating if he can never get past that. Some BS's just can't move forward. Doesn't make them bad, just part of who they are. However, IMHO you both need to look at this as the absolute last resort only after putting every ounce of effort that you can muster in the rebuilding process.

As for the love bank being completely empty, I think that is pretty natural for both sides. After all, you didn't seek to fulfill your needs outside the M because the love bank was overflowing. I think for you the best advice in this area can come from SmartCookie and Dorry. SC will admit to having no love at all for her BS after she was encouraged to come clean with him. However, she was very surprised at the changes he made after D-Day and she kept her heart open to him. After the fog lifted and they both worked through some of the issues, she at least has deep respect for her spouse if not absolute love (although she will admit that she doesn't feel the intimate love to this day.) Dorry is farther along in her process. She also did not feel that she loved her spouse and her sitch was further complicated by a revenge A by her FBH. Both of these posters can give you advice on descrambling the mixed messages that you will feel through this process.

Lastly, although I do not believe it is fair for Eagle15 to try and punish you for your actions, you also have to understand the deep pain that you have caused him. When you started your A, you crotch kicked him in a way that you cannot imagine the pain. He has to work through this but as a FWW, you have a responsibility to help him through this pain, understand his feelings and accept your responsibility. I think by coming on here and talking about those issues, you have made a huge step. It takes guts for a FWW to come here and be subjected to the venom sometimes spewed by all of us BS's.

Keep posting. Ask Eagle15 to not view your posts and you have nothing to hide from him but feel that you need a forum to understand your own feelings. Ask him to be patient with you and understand that just as he is confused, hurt, angry...as a FWW you share many of those same feelings, just in different ways.

NT

Hi, MrsEagle,

I wanted to welcome you. I was a WW, too. I remember letting my lovebank for my H hit way into the red. I thought he was controlling, manipulative, punishing, selfish and cruel. Yep. All that and a bag of rancid chips.

We took a way I want to advise you against. Yes, I had an affair...it tore him up terribly. Inside and out. Like he stepped into a shredder. I couldn't/wouldn't feel his pain. I stayed firmly in the fog, so much so that at one point I said, "Well, maybe I'm a woman who just needs two husbands." :::: Didn't wake up out of that fog until four months after my affair ended.

My H didn't know about MB...he was raised to not ask for help, this policy of don't ask, don't tell. So he had his own affair. I hope that doesn't happen to you. Then I knew what my H had felt...the shredder is real.

My H didn't have any love left for me. Hated me, what I'd done and was only thinking about ending his A and coming back to the marriage for our children. Now? He's in love, pretty darn thrilled to be best friends again, home, warm and safe with his family. So am I. Didn't think I could get from there to here...could I, with a controlling, manipulative, selfish, punishing, cruel man?

No.

Because my judgments changed when I knew the depth of his pain. I read it in his journal, saw it in his eyes, heard it in his anger and tears. And what was I? Did I control with my affair? Manipulate, punish? Wasn't it my most selfish act? Cruel beyond measure? Yeah, I got my love back for my H AFTER I looked inside myself and owned my own stuff. Then H wasn't all those things...I was.

MB (especially Just Learning's posts...the man who let you in on the whisper secret...he is awesome) and IC got me here. My own part is what saved me. Changed our patterns of behavior in our marriage, got us to where we could be safe with one another.

"I am comforted knowing we're in this together." My H said that. He's right. We each have our parts and growth, but we're in it together.

Prayers and blessings to you...lovebusters for me came first.

LA

Bumping up your thread Eagle's wife.

I think it would be better for you to have your own.

Has your husband always been a person to have all of these "rules" or is that fairly new?

No, he has always told what I need to do. I'm tired of feeling like my thoughts, ideas and fellings are crap. I was just reading in Surviving an Affair again at his request about trying to force your values/ideas on the other member. Maybe husband needs to read the book again also.