FH:

Thanks for the well written post. I think I have conceded that there are exceptions to EXPOSURE "each and every time"....but I still say the "exception" should be extremely limited and I would welcome your opinions on what those exceptions are. You said that an exception was when an affair is over and the couple is in recovery...yet you then backtracked and said "not always".

I will concede that it is not black and white and an "all or nothing" approach is not necessarily always the right answer. However, when you start talking about HIV/HIPPA analogies, you start to bring in the law and that only brings an additional obstacle to doing what is
right". We are then not comparing apples to apples. There is no law against exposing an affair, but there sure is a law against me exposing the fact that one of my patients has HIV to others, and other HIPPA garbage. I think your post also points that out.

I think we are in general aggreement on things. If you want me to concede that it is not an "all or nothing" approach, then I will do so. I concede that there are probably some circumstances that there can be more harm than good done by exposing.....but again, I challenge you to tell me what those are. We are talking about a general principle here, and not an exception. That is the point I was trying to make. Yet, it seems that those in disagreement with me have jumped on the cracked branch of the exception, and not the general rule.

LEM

What is it you folks would have me do?
Constact this W from 4 andn1/2 years ago and tell her that my W betrayed Her m 4 and 1/2 years ago????
What good would come out of that?
What good would what woud that accomplise?
Jerry

I'll take that bet. Just give me a scappel and a couple of the those hot-to-trot nurses that know how to do everything and basically do your job for you and I am set to go.

See I can do run-on sentences too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mr. W <------having fun <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

LAWYER !!!!!!!!!

Is saying that word against TOS?

No really very relevant so out it goes.

Good night and good bye to this thread.
Lem you;re right;
Some people just don't get it!!!!!!!!
Jerry

Take care Jerry.

Jerry,
"What good would it do".... some cases for exposure and the benefit of exposure in your case were made. It is up to you to think about them.....

I was not telling you to expose. I was trying to show you the benefit of exposing....that it is very possible that the benefit is there for the W of the OM. You don't know her, you don't know what she has to live with, you don't know the state of her current M and if she has self doubt of D her first H, you don't know whether she would care to know or not, you don't know whether she would retaliate or not. But at the end of the day, you have information about HER life, that she does not. This is what I AM reacting to. If it was me, I would want to know.

I recently found out that my H was persuing woman at the same time as we were working on our M. It was a horible time in my life, and I tried so hard to work on my M and nothing I did seem to matter. For months I looked back at that time analyzing and replaying it over and over, thinking of all the different things I could have said and done. It so helps to know where his mind was at during that time. I felt so much quilt at not being more understanding of him wanting "space". I don't feel that quilt any more. It gives me Peace of mind to know what was going on at that time. It is nice to have another piece of the puzzle. That is all I am saying.


I still don't see how she can destroy your marriage.....this still puzzles me. Either your M today is strong or it is not. I don't see how she knowing of the A, can destroy your M. Did the OM's W retaliate against the OW that she does know about? Out of curiousity, how does your W feel about exposing.....?


Daisy

oh well, I guess I took too long writing my post.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Daisy

Doc, let me begin my response in the middle, and then go back to your opening question.




This is very true, as I said in my previous post. It IS a LAW when dealing with HIPPA, etc., BUT that was not the way that the question was posited. The question was asked as a MORAL and ETHICAL question, not a legal issue.

So let's expand it just a little. We, in my opinion, can't "hide behind the laws" when they are in direct opposition to "what is right." If that were so, there would be NO "Civil Rights" movement, no right to Vote for women, etc. Sometimes the LAW must take a "back seat" to Ethics and Morality because the LAW is wrong, not "illegal."

Things like HIV/AIDS kills people. Medical professionals who "hide behind the law" for fear of lawsuits, etc. are KNOWINGLY letting someone play "Russian Roulette" with other innocent people's lives. I remember when virtually 100% of all Hemophiliacs were infected with HIV from blood collected from HIV+ persons (most of whom were addicts and homosexuals). The "Ethical" choice of NOT "discriminating" against KNOWN typical sources of infection led to a death sentence for a whole lot of innocent people who's only "fault" was lack of a clotting factor.

Letting someone walk into a school with a gun can easily lead to someone getting maimed or killed. The "Right to bear arms" ends at the Schoolyard, but the question is still an Ethical and Moral one if SOMEONE knows about the potential problem and chooses to keep their mouth shut.

Today we are debating the "Right to surveil people who have been having contact with Al Qaeda and people are arguing on the one side for "criminal" statutes to apply that require a search warrant and on the other side for "wartime" needs of intelligence to protect the general population from those bent on doing harm. The Criminal Law is specific, NO surveilance without a warrant in CRIMINAL matters. The Constitution is also quite specific that the President is empowered to do pretty much whatever is necessary to protect the citizens in a time of war. We ARE at war, whether people choose to believe it or not. There IS an enemy who has declared war on us and wants to kill us if we don't "bend the knee" to them and their concept of how we should be...free or in servitude to them.

As an aside, we are told that Cell Phones do NOT guarantee privacy because they broadcast. "Wiretapping" is related to hard, land-line phones. Those WOULD require a court order, but in today's environment of "disposable cell phones," time is of the essence and the "air waves" are NOT protected when one CHOOSES to broadcast, imho.

I know that seems to be getting a bit "off the track" with respect to informing someone of an affair by their spouse, but the issue you raised is a Moral and Ethical one, and that's what I'm trying to focus on. So let's get back to the first part.




Indeed you have, since I wrote that response. So no point in beating a dead horse. I'll try to limit my response to your follow-up question.

I agree that a "general principle" of "Exposure" is the correct action most of the time. But there are times when it is not the "best course of action." An abusive spouse would be one "exception" that I could think of off the top of my head. Another would be where there is NO "ongoing, active" affair and exposure unnecessarily widens the circle of knowledge to where others, such as children, could get hurt in the fallout.

In my own particular case, the OM was single, so the issue was "moot," there was no spouse to expose to. I COULD have exposed it to his mother, but she was complicit in it already. In the case of an "open marriage" couple, what purpose would it serve? Those are just a few quick examples, but I'm sure we could sit down and write up a list of some "exceptions" to the "general rule."

My basic point regarding the "general rule" is that it is primarily designed for ACTIVE affairs where the spouse is "in the dark" about what is being perpetrated behind their back. It gets much "cloudier" when the affair was ended by the WS who finally broke through the "fog" and went back to their spouse. At that point, I believe, unless there are some very "extenuating circumstances," exposure of the affair to the Faithful Spouse should be up to the FORMERLY Unfaithful Spouse and NOT to an "outsider" to the marriage.

I would argue "For" exposure by a FWS in most cases, unless there was, for example, a real possibility for physical violence on the part of the BS. Also the underlying type of Affair and underlying psychological problems might also have to be taken into consideration, where a Profession might be better equipped to advise than any of us on MB.



I think you and I are pretty much in agreement. But it DOES raise the Moral and Ethical CHOICE question on a variety of topics, not just infidelity. Such choices will likely be with us always.....just like those who argue for ALL abortion because an exception in the case of rape or incest is expanded to cover all CHOICE for sex, thereby giving a woman the "right to choose" to end the life of all innocents that they have "control over."

It is NOT an easy choice when dealing with Ethics and Morality because not all things are "Black and White."

STANDARDS, imho, is what it eventually all comes back to. What Standards and who establishes the Standards? For me, there are two basic "sources" for the STANDARDS that one can embrace. God and Man. If, as you indicated in a previous post, you believe in Karma, as the Hindu's do, then what people "get" in this life is what they "deserve" because of a "past life." I, on the other hand, believe that we have "one shot" at life on earth, and then we face God for eternity. An atheist would choose "societal" standards in most cases simply because they don't believe in ANY form of "next life."

So where does that leave us? With each person's chosen set of STANDARDS, those things that they choose to NOT do, or choose TO do, to others. And Ethics and Morals are intricately tied into those Standards.

God bless.

Honestly,
I'm not expecting YOU to DO anything.

However,
I would appreciate some common courtesy,
and have you answer the Simple Question if your W cheated and you didn't know, would you want to Know??

Then if your answer is NO,
why wouldn't you want to know?

(truly, how is not knowing helpful)

If yes,
then why wouldn't you Do what you would want someone to do for you?

Lastly,
did you or did you not want Details when you learned of your WW's infidelity?

That is all.
A response for a response.

You asked for some reasons and I came up with a few off the top of my head (on returning and finding your questions to me).

Now I'd simply like to explore and begin to understand your position and view point (which frankly is very much the opposite of my own).

Like many threads on here, I wish to better understand
(cause like this one --- not all threads are about practical advice .....some are about perspective).
Help me grow.

Lem,
BTW, I had no idea that anyone collected pens. Interesting.....

Daisy

Well, you'd be very suprised by the obsession that this hobby can become for some.

Check out the link for a preview:

http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php?act=idx

Interesting?

LM

WOW....I had no idea <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />....

So, do you actually use them? If so, do you also have different inks? I always used green ink when I was kid, since we were only allowed to use fountain pens in school when I was young (this makes me sound old <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />).....


Daisy <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Well, Forverhers, I can't say I disagree with much of what you say. We are more in agreement on this than people think....you just have much better talents at writing and expression than I do....it's that left brain dominance with me again. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

The words quoted and posted by you above are very insightful. It is something to think about though.

Lest anyone think I am putting myself above others here with my creating this thread, I think I should come clean with some ethically borderline things I have done. I am 100% guilty of "fudging" the medical records if that is what it takes to get a patient a necessary procedure or test. Insurances have certain standards (entirely cost driven) that must be met in order for a test or procedure to be covered. I am ever loyal to my patients (probably to a fault)...so, yes I have technically committed medicare and insurance fraud in that vain. It is legally wrong, and I am knowingly breaking the law in some instances. Yes, I am rationalizing the behavior because I do it for the benefit of my patients, but it is still wrong. I guess the difference is, I accept that about myself. I don't want people to think I think of myself as some ethical elitist or something...LOL, far from it. I am what I am. I have broken the law to circumvent the system...and I will do it again tonight if I have to in order to serve my patients.

Perhaps I will pay the price for this someday. I guess some could look at me as having less than "upstanding morals" for doing this.

It's ok though, I can live with myself and look at myself in the mirror every day. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Lem

Yes, I use all of them. I am not into the vintage pens that cost thousand of dollars that just stay in a desk or wall case UNUSED.

I keep at least 3 pens always inked in my lab coat....three colors...tradtional black, traditional blue and "other"...which could be anywhere from "rose cyclamen" (a beautiful red) all the way to vert pre (a nice green).

I keep 2 pens protected in a leather pen case in my leather satchel ready for use at any time. I use a variety of inks. For X-mas I was using a scented X-mas ink. I have been hounded by medical records for writing with blue ink in the chart...(doesn't copy well)... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> I just tell them to F-OFF under my breath and they go away for a while...but I am on the radar with this.

I am a pen snob indeed. If a drug rep pen makes it into my rotation by some accident, as soon as the oversight is discovered, the pen is discarded immediately and another fountain pen is taken from the desk and inked and put into the rotation.

It is kind of funny just re-reading this post. If one is not into pens, no doubt they think I am nuts....LOL. KiwiJ may have a slight inclination as to where I am coming from.

The way I look at it is this. I don't waste money on drugs, alcohol, cigarettes, fast food, or porn. I work a MINIMUM of 60 hours EVERY WEEK. I pay federal income taxes (in the f-ing 38% bracket)...so if I want to indulge myself in some "pen" loving....what's tha harm...? LMAO. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I don't think it is any weirder than someone reading a self help book while they ride a staionary bike or someone who writes in their journal 3 hours a day....which by the way a lot of people do here, and could stand to buy a good fountain pen to encourage better journaling. Let me know if you need some advice on a nice entry pen to get you started.



LM

This is what it comes down to. Unfortunately, as we have seen on this board, the people that cheat apperantly can do the same.....

Daisy

Well, they can....but as you can see....only for so long. I have yet to see a Wayward Sppouse who can continually look at themselves in the mirror with their actions while predictably their actions cause havoc in their lives. Yeah, anyone can get away with it for even a short time...but eventually, a Wayward (Cheater) will end up reaping what they sow, and that mirror eventually gets too fogged up to see. It is not an "if" with them, just a "when".

LM

On these issues I think you right, there isn't a lot of difference in our thinking. As for "expression" capability, I thank you for your complement, but there are many others much better at expressing their thoughts than I am. I am thinking of Mortarman and Bob Pure, SKF and Lostva, to name just a few.

It really doesn't matter much, though, when it comes from the heart. That tends to make it very eloquent no matter one's literary skills.



I think about them all the time because I am in the insurance business and deal with folks from all walks of life and all beliefs. Yet the "human misery" quotient is a "common denominator" that "levels the playing field." The difference is money, in most cases, and in most cases if the really "bad" happens it won't make much difference how much money someone has....you can't "buy" health and you CAN run through a lifetime's savings so quickly it would make anyone's head spin. We can try to "blame others," like the insurance company or the government, but in many cases that's just trying to shift the cost to someone else. Insurance is just what it says it is...a way to shift the cost for a lot medical care to a company or to the government. We can choose to pay a premium or we can choose not to. In the final analysis, it is OUR body and OUR responsibility to pay for the care. But premiums wouldn't be so high and coverages so restricted if it were not for the charges by the providers, unnecessary charges to "cover one's butt legally," and the malpractice pursuits of certain "ambulance chasers" who are directly affecting ACCESSIBILITY to healthcare in many parts of the country.

Oh I know, medicine is no different than other fields. There ARE bad doctors and cheats too who are NOT making ethical choices FOR their patients, but for their own wallets. Thankfully they are are minority, but they have a bad effect on everything and, like tenured "bad" teachers, they are NOT often dealt with by their peers. It usually takes a court, and by that time the bad effects have spread.

That's what Adultery is like. A devastating disease that CAN be fought, can take all you have, and MAY be beaten and MAY not be. The "choices" get hard sometimes. The "treatments" may not be worth the cost or the pain. Prostate Cancer, Colon Cancer...treat them agressively, the survival rate is high. Pancreatic Cancer....let me get my affairs in order and NOT subject myself or my loved one's to a basically hopeless, and expensive, fight.

One lady I have as a client is a very poor (monetarily) black woman who has ESRD. She's been dialyzing with PD for 10-12 years or so and NEVER has had a peritonitis. Add to that, in 1992 she had a heart transplant as a result of heart damage from rheumatic fever as a young adult. She "walks with God" and has one of the sweetest outlooks I've ever seen, or been priveleged to know. Her "standards" are God's standards....and very humbling when I get to thinking about "my troubles."




I understand what you are saying. We have all, or at least those of us who have been involved in the healthcare field, have had to make decisions because of the "rules" that are in conflict with "ethics." For humans, it's easy to "grade" sins, "white lies," "small sins," "BIG sins," "maybe a sin maybe not depending upon...."
But from where I sit as one who has accepted Jesus Christ and had to face his own sins, I understand that ALL sin is anathema to God and that ALL of us, except for Jesus Christ, HAVE sinned....some big, some small, some "well-intentioned," but SIN nonetheless.



We will ALL pay a price one day depending upon whether or not our names are in God's Book of Life. We all have a "shot" at forgiveness of our sins, all of them, but it is only on "God's terms" because HE is the judge. We accept or reject...the rest is just rationalization for our own benefit to fool ourselves into thinking we are "good" or "good enough."




In the final analysis most of us want to think the same thing. But when we take the time to really sit down and think about the moral and ethical choices and stances we take....we find it's not so easy sometimes to look at our own reflection in the mirror, or in the lives we didn't "stand up for."

For me, the question always revolves around "Who's Standards?" God's Standards are the only ones that I know that are immutable REGARDLESS of what Man may want to "accept" as "moral and ethical." And only by knowing God has forgiven my sins completely because of Jesus Christ can I look at myself in the mirror and KNOW that this life is only temporary and that all the suffering and pain brought on by the existance of sin in our lives will be GONE for all who have accepted Christ. It is also why there is such a burden for people to answer the question "is Jesus Christ who He said He is?" "The wages of sin is......" dependent upon the CHOICE we each make regarding Christ and NOT how we choose to act (ethically or morally according to human standards).

But no matter what, I am all for everyone choosing to live as good a life as they can with respect to their "neighbor," because Man can be really evil if he chooses selfishly.

God bless.

In my situation the OW wasn't married but....

I received a call from my primary care doctor late one evening. She called to tell me that my routine pap test showed I had an easily treatable STD called "trichomoniasis". I'd never heard of it! I hadn't even confirmed for sure that my exWS was having an affair at that time. There were a lot of rumors, but I didn't have proof. I'd also heard rumors that the OW might be pregnant. My H. denied all of this.

I asked my dr. how I could have gotten it. She said that most times it's sexually tranmitted but could be contracted through dirty toilet seats, damp towells, etc. She said that I and my H. would both need to be treated with medication. She asked if I wanted to tell my H. or did I want her to? I asked her to and handed the phone to him. They spoke briefly and when he hung up he said nothing, was calm, nonchalent. I said "So, do you want to talk about this ?" He said "Why? Did you have something you need to tell me??" I just blew and left the house to get calmed down.

The next day I read about the condition. It was relatively harmless and easily treatable with medication. There was an exception, related to pregnancy. It could cause pre-mature labor and delivery...as well as low birth weight. It could also cause blindness if in the birth canal when the baby was being born.

I struggled about what to do. My husband wasn't admitting to an affair, much less that the OW was pregnant! I debated about trying to get ahold of the OW. Not because I cared about her, but because I cared about an innocent child if she was pregnant.

I had spoken with the OW once in the past, very briefly, and she had never mentioned a pregnancy. Besides, it wasn't easy to get ahold of her (no phone). I knew I could show up at the Club where they had met and attended their A.A. meetings. But, to be honest, I felt so humiliated by everything going on that I didn't think I could handle doing that. She'd be on her turf, with her friends, being her 21 year old shapely self and me my 47 year old "padded" self. (I just "knew" that people would take one look at me and know why my exWS would choose her!) Self-centered, no doubt, but I was tired of dealing with all the crap created by someone else. I was exhausted, unfocused, depressed, angry, and mourning the probable loss of my much loved husband. Besides, the one time I did speak with her I told her that I thought we were both being played by my ex..she blew me off.

Finally I decided to tell my H. about the possible implications for someone having this STD who was pregnant. I said, "I know you're not admitting you're having an affair, much less that the OW is pregnant. But, just in case she is I want you to know something." I went on to tell him about what I had read. Then "Again, I know you're not going to be up front with me about whether this whole situation is going on, but the OW, and especially an innocent baby, needs to have this information. I'm leaving it up to you to tell her, if there's a need. I wouldn't want to be in your shoes if something happened to an innocent child because of this condition." H.: "Well, there's not a need." I just said "Fine. I've done what I felt I needed to do. It's up to you now."

Maybe I should have tried hard to contact her directly...but I just didn't have it in me.