Originally posted this in Plan A/Plan B section. It was suggested I post here as there is more traffic.

Ok, I've read enough to know that my situation is not unusual. I thought it was. Husband and I have been together for 8 years (married 5). Never any hint of a problem. We were that couple that everyone envied - we had joy, passion, friendship, love, respect. We spent much more than the 15 hours a week together. He has no children, I have 2 sons still at home. He took to being their father like you wouldn't believe. I cannot have any more children and this was discussed at length before we married, no, even at the start of the relationship. He stated he never wanted any. At the end of August, I knew something had been bothering him for the past week or so. he confessed that he had been thinking about wanting a child. I was a little taken aback, but then, I said we did have options - adoption, surrogacy - but he said that he wanted it the "natural way". It didn't make sense so I asked him if there was someone else. He said no and I believed him because I thought it was impossible. Over the next couple of months he pulled away from me and the boys. He agreed to counseling and we started to uncover some deep hurts he had related to his father and stepfather, but then it got too painful and he wanted to stop. On Dec. 28, 2005, he admitted to an affair with a girl at work - she is also married and has 4 kids. Apparently, it started almost as soon as she was hired (late June) and he "couldn't help himself". He moved out, now has his own apartment, and is planning on moving in with her once she leaves her husband. They are having unprotected sex and hoping she will get pregnant, although I don't think that this was ever really about a child.
Of course, I blew up and screamed and begged and pleaded. Last week he came over for dinner because I told him I wanted to know the truth - no more lies between us. I listened and made no judgements. He apoplogized and took responsibility. I did tell him how hurt and betrayed I felt and that I thought that we could save our marriage. He says he still loves me, but he loves her too and wants to be with her. He did have a hard time leaving. I have not called him. He e-mailed me last night and said that he "finds it uncomfortable to talk about our present situation" and is always "afraid of what direction the conversation will take". He said that I am on his mind a lot. So, is it time for Plan A? How do I know when to go to Plan B? I am having a hard time with the "stick" of Plan A. Both of our families know ( his mother says that this is the same exact behavior as his father and stepfather, but totally uncharacteristic for him), but he has kept it secret at work (he is her supervisor). Any and all advise would be appreciated. He has had no contact with te boys other than sending a birthday card to the youngest one.

Update: I exposed A to his boss and am doing Plan A. OW's husband supposedly knows. I tried to speak with him when I first discovered, but have no way to contact. Home phone always goes to ans. Machine on first ring. I left several messages.

Hi, and sorry you have to be here..I'm not any kind of expert in this, but I think you should probably do the best Plan A you can before he moves in with this woman...it's likely to take longer than your H thinks it will if she has kids and her H wants to work it out with her. I would keep trying to find ways to contact her H, maybe find out where he works somehow?
I guess it would be hard to Plan A if he's not living at the house, but there are things you can do to help him see what he will be losing if he leaves. He says you are on his mind a lot..that's a good thing, make sure when he thinks about you, he is seeing the strong, loving, understanding side of you...I'm sure someone will be along to give you better advice, but I know in my situation, my H says that the loving and mature way I handled myself after D day was a HUGE draw to him to work things out with me...

Go out today and buy His Needs, Her Needs, it is an eye-opening read and will help you better understand your H's behavior...stay strong, and God Bless

lizzie, I think you need to find a way to get ahold of the OW's H even if it means driving over there and knocking on his door. It is doubtful that the OW has any plan of leaving her H since she has 4 boys and your exposure to him may blow this wide open.

I would also send a letter to Human Resources informing them of the affair, referring to the obvious risks of sexual harrassment. I would put the onus on them by asking: "what do you intend on doing about it?" No serious company would appreciate a supervisor having an affair with a female subordinate.

I would plan these exposures on the SAME DAY if possible so the affairees can feel the maximum impact. They may have already pre-empted you so be sure and take evidence at least to the OWH. With the workplace exposure, you can explain that your H's boss has been informed.

Aside from that, I would suggest staying in Plan A and reading as much as you can about Marriage Builders. A good book is Surviving an Affair. You can buy it on this website with fast, cheap shipping.

Welcome to Marriage Builders, sorry you are here.

This is classic affair stuff.

Do you believe you have a handle on Plan A? Describe what you have identified as your contributions to the poor marital environment?

ditto everythng Mel recomended.


What did his boss say when you exposed to him?

What kind of business is this? You don't have to name it, just describe it so we can better understand the setting. The sexual harassment angle - if available at this business - can make you the most powerful woman on the planet.

Do not for a moment believe that OW's husband knows what's going on. Further, your H may not even really know what's going on in OW's family. WSs lie to each other as much as they lie to their BSs.


Don't do this any more. OK? We know it's hard, but would you like to stay with someone who does this? Of course not. Bite your tongue and come here to scream.


Do not expect to hear "no more lies." Rather, DO NOT believe any thing he says.


No he didn't take responsibility. Do not be fooled by what he says.


Good! Do not shy away from expressing your feelings. Just don't yell and scream to do it.



Duh! Of course he's uncomfortable! He's trying to wreck two homes!!!

Since he has moved out, do you have any legally binding agreement - like a legal separation - that defines financial stuff and property access?

Again, do anything you can to contact OW's H. This is vital. Explore the workplace sexual harassment thing.

Stay as calm as you can and Plan A your butt off.

WAT and MelodyLane,

Thanks for the advice. I have ordered the book and I have been reading here like crazy. I have tried to identify my role in A, but like I said, we had a great M. Obviously, he had emotional needs that I wasn't fulfilling so he looked elsewhere. I continue with IC. Counselor believes that he is dealing with some childhood issues (she did MC for both of us - about 9 sessions before he quit. A was ongoing the entire time but it was still secret). I work 3 12 hour night shifts per week (I am a labor and delivery nurse). I think maybe that had something to do with it although we talked about me working nights before I took the job (over 2 years ago). Like I said above, we spent much time together every week - Wednesday night has been date night for us for the past 8 years - still surprise each other with cards, he came home every day for lunch, sex was still great, still went parking etc. Believe me, I have been going over everything looking for clues that I might have missed. Have also been remodeling our house and that was often stressful too. I realize now that that was more important to me than it was to him. His father left his mom for a woman with 5 kids when H was just a baby. Mom remarried soon after and then his stepfather cheated and left when H was a senior in high school. My oldest son is now in high school - same exact scenario.

H works in an electronics factory. He is head of production and shipping. She works in shipping. When I said I asked him to tell me the truth, I meant about the affair - when it started, how it started, etc. He told me that he was attracted to her from the start and eventually he admitted that it wasn't because he "couldn't help himself" it was because he didn't want to. Employer was very sympathetic (had been to our wedding) and was surprised. I brought up the sexual harrasment angle and he said that it was something he hadn't though of. H is well liked and respected so exposure will definitely impact that. We'll see what happens there.

As for OW - don't know where her husband works or where they live. My youngest son and her oldest daughter are in the same grade but I don't want to involve children. I think a relative works at a local bank, so I'll probably pursue that. CS for 4 kids will definitely impact this ow's H!

Working on a legal separation now.

Have seen WH over weekend. He called me at work to offer ride because of snowstorm. I accepted. On way home, he held my hand. Also invited me to accompany him to a competition he is in on Mar. 4. I accepted. Have been upbeat and friendly, have not asked about OW or A, have mentioned all of the things I am currently doing - still have dinner with his brother and wife weekly and then play cards - something we did for the past 5 years - play pool weekly, painting the home office - just so he knows that I am going on with my life. I have waited for him to contact me, have not been the one to phone or e-mail first. Is that right? I don't want him to feel chased or pursued.

But, I can see that he is miserable. I am not doing anything to fix that. I am glad he is miserable.

lizzie

Thanks for the encouragement. I'm so glad I found this site. It's amazing how common my story is - I was feeling totally alone before coming here.

Did the counselor NOT explore a possible affair? If he/she asked your H about an affair, was he/she satisfied with a denial?

If the answer to either one of these questions is "yes", don't spend any more money on THIS counselor!

You have an excellent chance to win this. His fence sitting, the children, the work place stuff, OW's H may not know yet - all are positive signs.


Good. Tell us about it. Give us the details.

Going thru this exercise (legal separation) is an excellent opportunity for a WS to see consequences with the bad news delivered by somebody other than you - an attorney. Your approach should be to NOT let him off easy with money issues, NOT let him have access to anything he wants, and NOT to skimp on what you and the children need. In other words, make him FEEL it.

Be looking ahead to Plan B. As soon as the separation is signed, that's a good time to implement Plan B. Set him adrift. Make him put pressure on OW to leave her family to join him. Odds are she won't want to leave her kids. THIS is why it's soooooooo important for you to get in touch with OW's H. Get it?

In the meantime slurp up all the attention he gives you and fill those ENs. The supervisor/employee relationship suggests OW may be filling his admiration EN. Exploit this.

WAT

Counselor did explore affair several times - he repeatedly denied. Said it was all about his desire to have his "own" children. This desire is what got us in to counseling in the first place.

I will end up with everything in separartion. I was much better off financially than him when we met. All money put into home was mine long before we met ($124,000 to date) and home is in my name. He ends up with his clothes and tools and half the bills.

You may have a point about him needing admiration, although I thought I gave him plenty. I have a more successful career (RN vs. factory), make more money, just completed a bachelor's degree at top of my class, was chosen for several awards, commencement speaker, and had 3 papers published. Maybe he was feeling overshadowed although he seemed to be very proud of my successes. Thanks for pointing out. I now have a better plan of attack.

OK, you're obviously in a good spot legally. Does "half the bills" include half the mortgage?

When did he move out and when will the separation be signed?

What are your plans for finding OW's H?

Oh, and I recommend no more money to that counselor. Did your H ever mention his "own" children before OW started working there? How old is he?

WAT

WAT,

I am 45. WH is 38. Here's my story:

First marriage lasted 8 years. My husband had an affair with my best friend - she got pregnant, had abortion, he confessed. I filed for divorce. we have 3 children together - S -28, S-25, D-23.

Met husband #2 on rebound. He was alcoholic, drug addict, physically and mentally abusive. Legally married for 8 years but separarted most of it. 2 sons aged 18 and 12.

Single and no dating for 2 years.
Enter husband #3. Totally different. I had been in a lot of counseling and entered relationship from a different place than other 2. Everything was great as I said before.

No talk of his "own" children until he had already started an EA with this other woman (June 05). Became PA in 9/05.

"half the bills" does not include mortgage. I figure my house, my bill.

He moved out the night he told me: 12-28-05. Stayed in motel and moved into his own apt. 2-1.

Should I do separation agreement soon? Did I understand you about doing Plan B right away after that? I thought Plan A should be for at least 3 months? Just started that last week.

Thanks for caring.

So far I have really liked the counselor. She did ask about the affair several times which he repeatedly denied. Why do you think I am wasting money with her?

Another question:

Valentine's Day e-card (nothing mushy): Plan A or chasing?

I'll answer as best I can, but do not make any decisions on my advice alone. I am a rank amateur.


Yes. It's not AS important for you as others with kids together and more intertwined finances, but you probably have SOME joint assets and common property like autos, right? Best to get this settled. Even before having anagreed upon separation, you ought to cancel all jointly held credit cards, etc. and make sure he cannot spend your liquid assets.


....and not your marriage? He was living in this house, right, and it was a marital home, right? Was his income helping to make the payments before he moved out? Ask you attorney for advice, but DO NOT think for a minute that he deserves any consideration.


IF you've done a good Plan A, going to Plan B right after securing a legal separation is a good time to do it. You have to determine when you've done a good and long enough Plan A. Plan A is all about YOU fixing any problems YOU had and demonstrating your fixes to your H to the extent he will let you. When this is done AND you're separated, it's time for Plan B. Usually the separation is the limiting determinant.


I say this because ANY good counselor experienced with infidelity would have spotted his lies a mile away. That said, I wasn't there and maybe she has worth to you beyond the affair. Continue individual for your own good, but you'll be wasting money on ANY counselor for marriage advice right now - until we get your H's head outta his butt. For fighting the affair advice, consider counseling with one of the MB counselors or just posting here.

Consider this - print out this post and the links in my sig line below and show all to your counselor. Tell us what she says.

Sure - but not pleading, begging, etc.

WAT

WH called on V-day to ask if he could come over on his way home from work. Stopped in - told me he loved me,said "Happy Valentine's day" and let me know that i was the only one he had said that to. I didn't acknowledge his comment - just said "Happy V day" back to him.Also let me know that his employer called him into his office on Tues. to let him know that I had called him and exposed A. Said he wasn't mad - he actually looked relieved - and asked me why I hadn't let him know that I was planning to do that or that I had done it. I responded that the A was his secret, not mine, and that i was doing what was necessary to protect myself. He did not go in to specifics of his meeting with employer and I did not ask. Also said he told OW that he was not sure about moving in with her. I really didn't say much to that, just kind of told him that was his decision and changed the subject. He knows I am on vacation next week, so he told me he arranged to take off some days as well so that we can "do something". So, I guess plan A is going well. Separation papers almost ready. Found someone who knows OW's husband and will get a message to him for me. Finally feeling like maybe I have a handle on this.

Very odd. Not the typical response.

Can you followup with his employer? His response WOULD be expected if his employer gave the wink, wink, nod, nod "lecture". But if the boss REALLY read him the riot act, maybe this worked.

Keep up the good work. Embrace every opportunity to "do something" together. Work on that admiration EN. Let us know about any success contacting OW's H.

WAT

No way would boss give him the wink, wink, nod, nod. President of the company was also at the meeting. Both are good and decent men and I have watched them handle other sticky situations at work. like I posted earlier, all of this behavior is so uncharacteristic of my husband. I was thinking that maybe the fog is starting to lift.

Another subject: 23 year old daughter is very mad at WH. Mad at me for even talking to him. She aslo gets both sons -18 and 12- very upset by loudly expressing her opinions. I tried to talk to her and we ended up in a huge fight. She knows everything - she's 23. Son 18 avoids all contact with WH. Son 12 very angry but misses his stepfather. What to do about children as we figure this out?
Thanks so much for taking the time to respond.

It very well could be. I hope so. But please do not assume it is. Hope for the best, but expect less.

Maybe I'm confused - I though she was supporting him? maybe I have you confused with someone else > my "oldstimers" disease. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

For children old enough to figure out what's going on, the conventional wisdom seems to be to let the cards fall where they may, i.e., DO NOT either make the WS out to be the villain NOR make excuses for him/her.

Most of the time, the children figure it out correctly and dish out some much needed consequences to the WS. If this is happening in your case, good!

But stay on the moral high ground - do NOT pile on and, at most, communicate that the WS is very confused right now and hopefully will soon figure out that he's hurting us and GET HIS HEAD OUTTA HIS A$$.

Ok, not the last part. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

WAT

Happened to be out and about last night and someone pointed out OW's mother to me. She lives out of town and was visiting. I walked right over to her and introduced myself and exposed the A to her. She didn't believe - said her daughter had told her that there were some untrue rumors going around about her. I was calm and civil, told her what I knew in a factual manner, told her that I was sorry that this was causing her pain, but that I was in pain too and doing all I could to save my marriage.
WH found out and is PISSED. So is OW. Apparently, she was out looking for me last night. From WH I got:

I'm sticking my nose in where it doesn't belong.

There's a right way and a right time to let people know.

I'm driving a wedge in between us and this is not the way to get him back.

To all of this I simply replied back that I am doing what I think is best and that my goal is to save the marriage.
Also, he brought up my telling his employer, so i guess that did upset him after all.

I feel so empowered!!!!

We were supposed to spend the day together tomorrow, but we'll see. He didn't bring it up and neither did I.

Good job. My jaw dropped when I read that you walked right up to her and exposed.

I'll add your husband's comments to a list that I'm keeping. They all say almost identical things when exposed.
Your husband's are a tiny bit different.

Usually they say that this is the last straw, they were going to try to work on the marriage, but now they won't, it's none of your business, how could you hurt the OP's family, you are crazy, they will never trust you again, you are controlling, blah, blah, blah.

You have now done the very best thing to save your marriage. They are usually EXTREMELY angry, but get over it very soon. Repeat like a broken record that you will do what it takes to save your marriage. Don't argue, but be very calm.

Give yourself a big pat on the back.

Thank you! I did hear that I was hurting the OP's family. Apparently, OP's mother used to be a big partier and ended up getting high last night "because of me". I calmly replied that I can take no responsibility for anyone's actions except my own. Looks like trouble in paradise.