I can't take much more of this.

I was here on these forums a few times last year after I found out W was having EA in May '05.

Many ups and downs since: continued to spy, hoping I would see that "Dear John" letter that never came. Confronted again in July, then again in Oct.

All along, I was supposed to "give her space", and I struggled in the beginning, but got better, but it was tempered and hard due to what I knew was still going on.

She always denied, and when I had proof, she claimed it was not what I think, if I just left it alone, she would have ended it on her own, tried to make my spying the issue, etc., etc.

All along, we still had physical contact, and she was still intimate. After the last major confrontation in Oct., she sent a no-contact letter, and things seemed to get better. Each passing week and month, things were feeling better between us. But I had no way of spying (she found out I was using keystroke software all along), and she stopped using computer in house. But my suspicions were still there. I was driving myself crazy. Was she not logging on to her work email because she was afraid of horrible repercussions if that ever got out (me go to jail, her lose job), or because she was still hiding?

I kept checking public messages posted by her and OM on fanclub website forums where they met, watching when who was logged in when, what they were writing, etc.

Little hints here and there, but nothing concrete. But still...my Spidey-sense was kicking in.

The big concern was the big concert event in NYC in March that everybody on the forum goes too (this is a band website). She's been going for past 8 years and I always trusted her in the past until last year when I found out. I was starting to wonder if there was a cover up to hide the fact that OM was also going. But I didn't really think it was going to happen... things were really going well between me and W.

But still....the Spidey-sense.

Sunday, I go down to computer to pay bills. My nature caused me to open up the "Temporary Internet Files" folder and star t poking around. Guess what?

1. She has been talking to OM again, don't know for how long. The whole NC letter in Oct. could have just been a ploy to throw me off scent for all I know now.

2. She has been saying crap ABOUT ME to him. This hurts.

3. They have been conspiring on getting together in NYC in March, even though he has publicly posted he can't make it, etc. etc. Because of both of their profiles and popularity in the scene, it would take an enourmous amount of energy and coordination to conceal his presence. This goes beyond just plain secrecy and deception in my mind.


I went nuts. We slid back all the way to square one after I confronted on Sunday. All the old stuff came out again. I questioned whether all the "I love you's" and other gestures of affection the past several months have been nothing but B.S. I started drinking vodka at 10 in the morning, would go out and shovel snow for 10 minutes, come in and do another shot, fight, then go back out and shovel some more.

Here's a wrinkle: I was on these forums a few times last year after a few major incidents (the initial discovery and a later re-discover), and every told me to EXPOSE, EXPOSE, EXPOSE. I confronted, confronted, confronted, but always chickened out on exposure.

Sunday afternoon, I thought of that, and maybe the vodka helped, but I said "screw it", and call OM's wife.

Had a real interesting chat. Turns out she discovered on her end last year, but OM convinced her it was over and she bought it. Don't know what happened after our phone talk, whether she confronted OM or not, but I told my wife I calle d her. My wife didn't believe me at first, but was not happy. "How could you do that to that innocent woman? Why drag more people into this? I can't believe you did that"

Today, she said I didn't have the balls to talk to OM personally. Actually, and I told her this, when I called 3 times that day before getting OM's wife, I actually asked for OM. My original intention was to lay into him, I was pretty buzzed on vodka. But after try #4, I got wife, so I talked to her instead.

Needless to say, things arent' good right now. Neither one of us moving out (yet), she is terrified of uprooting daughters, and she claims she called him Sunday and told him never to contact again, and that he is not going to NY, and I have his wife in my back pocket now if I need to confirm that.

I have no way (other than OM's wife) to keep tabs anymore. She will NEVER use the computer in the house again. She claims she feels unsafe around me, but I think she is just angry that she got caught again, and is trying to make my spying the moral equivelent of her cheating.

We've both said we don't know if we even want to try to save our marriage at this point, and she said today that she really needs her time and space, something she asked for since this all started in May '05, and I never truly gave to her, and she needs time and space with both me and OM out of picture so she can sort out her thoughts. She also finally admittted today that she has strong feelings for OM, something she has denied since this has all started.

Don't know where I am going from here....

I am so sorry you are here...

She only needs space because she got caught again. If she goes to NYC in March, change the locks.

holiday

You don't buy this "argument" do you? The only ones who did anything to that innocent woman is your wife and her husband. The truth will only serve to protect the other man's wife and you. Your wife is just mad because by informing the other man's wife, you have made it more difficult for her to continue her affair.

OK. THat's a good start. But who else can you expose to?

Who do you know that can have an influence on her?

When are you planning on hitting her with the tsunami of truth exposure will bring?

Parents? Inlaws?

You have to smash the fantasy and end the affair. Then she will go through withdrawal and you will have a chance to rebuild your marriage.

Are you doing Plan A?

I don't know anything anymore.

The day of confrontation and exposure, she also called sister-in-law and cousin, (sister-in-law is real-estate agent and cousin has a house they rent), not giving all details, but pretty much leaving cat out of bag.

I heard her crying to her cousin (or maybe aunt?), saying that she "is Grandma 'X', the "next generation" (meaning Grandma "X" screwed up her life by being selfish and philandering and died homeless and alone).

When she called her sister-in-law saying she needs her to start keeping an eye out for 3-bedroom houses that she can afford, I was in earshot in other room and pretty buzzed on vodka, and didn't give a crap, so I screamed out at one point in response to something she was saying "BECAUSE YOU'RE A CHEATER!!!". She said while on phone, "that's right, I'm cheater...."

So knowing her family, I can guarantee that word is out.

I doubt they'll say anything though. The ironic thing is that when I met W in 1991, she was single mom, her X abandoning her and D9 and S6 for my W's best friend. After all that, all that hurt, she is doing this. When I first discovered May 2005, my feeling was that if her family found out, they would CRUCIFY her, but I'm finding that nobody really talks about it.

We are actually getting together with her mom and dad and sister and brother and her brother's inlaws (the wife is the real-estate agent she called) Friday night, and at first I voiced concern that it would be uncomfortable since the in-laws know, but we're going anyway. I know that nobody will say anything.

My BIGGEST struggle right now:

I'm awake at 3:30 AM can't sleep. I dont' know how much longer I can go with this "seperation". It's killing me. It's torture. Even after I first discovered in May 2005, at least, there was still physical contact and sex, we shared same bed, cuddled at night, etc.

Nothing now. It sucks.

We had to meet today for D9 psych. appointment (she has ADHD), and in waiting room, W starts R talk again, and brought up me moving back into bedroom, and said she isn't ready for it yet. She said she feels bad, but needs time and space. She started talking about her friend's parents who at one time seperated for 2 years, but came back and made things better than ever. She said "I'm not saying it's going to take 2 years for us, but I need space right now."

I'm worried that I'm going to crack in the meantime. Don't know if she's talking another week, another month, another year. And she doesn't know either an won't give me hint.

I've still been talking to girl I met on Yahoo Personals last year (when this all started, and out of desperation, and thinking all was over I immediately went out to test the waters), and am so tempted to get together with her. But I don't want to do anything to jeopardize the sitch here if we still have a shot.

I'm so confused and tortured.

[color:"red"] Red Flag Warning!!! [/color] If you still want to have a shot at recovery don't "get together" with her.

Since your WW is not fulfilling your EN's you are very vulnerable to having an A yourself. Unfortunatly this is common enough to have a name. It is called a "revenge A".

If you succomd to this I can grauantee you will not feel good about it or really fulfill your EN's. You WILL do great damage to your M and drastically hurt you chances at recovery.

It would be best if you cut contact with her and concentrate on Plan A if you really want to save your M.

Have you read up on Plan A? If not check out the links on this site.

You will not "crack" during this time. You will find that you have reserves of strength that you did not know existed. You will find them as you go through this.

Remember that right now that YOU are the one holding the M together. If you give up hope then she will see that and will not see any reason to work it out. If you give up hope she will get an "easy" out.

WS's are notorious for "fence sitting" / not making a decision. They will do almost anything to avoid responsibility / accountability for thier actions / choies.

Tread carefully with WW's family. Sounds like they have been desensitized to cheating if "grandma x" was like this. They aren't talking about because its probably not a shock, some may not even think its wrong and may even empathathize with your WW. They are probably not going to be allies in this fight.

I know in my family anyway, no one cares if someone else cheats. The family protects the wayward family member and of course crucifies the BS...not pretty. My Mother thought she would end my Dad's affair by exposing. The whole family not only knew about the affair, had met the OW and helped him hide his affair. My mother became a pariah, my fathers whole family turned on her. In the end it was all moot because my dear mother was having an affair of her own, and her family knew about it, and none of them cared about it either. And I wonder why i am in IC.

I know, you're right. Maybe at times, I have felt like having a "revenge A", but really it is about my need to have a "safety net". ("I'm so scared of being alone that I need to start doing something about it now.").

But I know it wouldn't be fair to my OW either. We haven't even ever talked, although we did exchange phone #'s last week.

Even though I would like security, and am looking at her as a safety net, I think I just don't have the balls right now to actually follow through on it. Partly because I'm just not emotionally stable enough right now, but also, I don't want to risk getting caught and jeopardizing my chances of repairing M if it is still possible.


Part of me is wondering if this time she is "testing" me, seeing if I will "run away" immediately, if things aren't going my way, seeing if my changes are sincere, not just an effort to get her to stop A or keep physical intimacy (like we have up until now, even after past A confrontations). I sense also that she is testing herself, hoping maybe that seperation (different beds for a while), will cause her to miss me (and vice versa), and make the spark more genuine if we do come together again? Or that I am not spying anymore?

Of course this is all predicated on the assumption that she is being honest in that she ended all contact with OM, and is for once putting in a good faith effort.

[color:"red"] Steep / Slippery Grade Warning!!! [/color] I'll start out by saying this: DO NOT THINK OF OW AS A SAFETY NET! As I stated before you are in a very vulnerable position. Continuing to think of her as a "safety net" only enables you to more easily detach from your WW and M. Rededicate / Refocus yourself on reattaching yourself to your WW & M.

I understand that you don't want to hurt the OP that you've been emailing. But if you draw OP in closer to this sitch there will be no way to aviod hurting OP in some way.

BTW: Not wanting to hurt the OP is the same reason your WW will use to avoid NC with her OM. See how slippery / steep this slope is now? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />



You're right about the emotional stability part. That's one reason your vulnerable to a "revenge A" right now. Don't risk a "meeting" with your pen pal right now. Sometimes things "just happen" (BTW: also another common WS excuse <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />). You don't want this to happen to you! You still stand a good chance at repairing your M at this point.



That's exactly what's going on! In her mind she has a "choice" to make: you or OM <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />. In order to save your M you have to convince her that YOU are the better choice (No, it's not fair, but this is what this boils down to).

Plan A is for trying to fix your M. It is about making changes to YOU (you can't make changes to WW) that are attractive to WW and drawing her back and getting her to reattach to you. It is about you fulfilling her EN's (even if you aren't getting anything back in return). During Plan A you need to eliminate all LB's and be supportive of showing love / positive changes to WW.

It may seem that the WW does not notice the changes. Most of the time WW's will not acknowledge these changes for quite a while. It goes back to the thought of "are these changes for real or only until he "wins" me back?" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Don't become discouraged! Plan A takes time to build but does have a great affect. A good Plan A lasts 3+ months and the changes to you last a lifetime! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />



I don't want to rain on your parade but don't count on it. This has been going on for awhile and I suspect that contact has just been driven further underground. I would continue to "check up" with OMW and keep your guard up.

You know that WW has abused you "trust" before. I don't think she has seen any real consequences of this betrail yet. She will need to "earn" your trust back and help YOU to feel comfortable. I don't think WW's at that point yet!

You will have days when everything is going well and you feel recovery is at hand, you will have days when nothing is going right and you're ready to chuck it all away! We refer to this as the Rollercoaster. Sit down, Strap in, & Hang on!

We'll be here to help you through this!

Stay Strong!

WTF,

Thanks. I'm just tired of the merry-go-round/roller-coaster (which one is it? Is it a combo? New amusement park ride?)

I went out on my lunch break today and bought Surviving an Affair. Looks like much of what I already read on this site (Harley makes alot of free here, doesn't he?) But maybe holding a book in my hand will be better.

My biggest problem is patience and seperation anxiety. It sure is hard after 15 years to go this long not sharing same bed. We've NEVER gone this long -- it's been a week now. It feels like an amputation. Even when we went a while without sex (during pregnancy), at least at a warm body next to me and that was always comforting.

The funny thing is I read so much after 1st discovery May 2005, and so much of it seemed to make sense (both here, on DivorceBusting.com, and some other stuff), but I was not able to keep my emotions under control to stop doing the love busting. My fear, anxiety, anger, jealousy always got the better of me.

It's coming up on a year since this started -- I wonder where we would be if I did less of the damaging stuff and more of the positive stuff.

You'd be further along than now! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Don't Sweat it. The past is over. Now start a new future. Start watching the LB's now. You may faulter occasionally. People do. Keep striving forward and you will succeed.

One thing that I found that helps is to keep a journal. Write in it everyday. What you did, What WW did, her reactions, talks with the kids, etc... If you keep this up you will start to recognize patterns forming. What seems to work with the WW, what doesn't, and you my start to recognize patterns / behaviours of you own you may need to modify.

Stay Strong!

I understand what you are saying here. Most of this I've already read/known. Some she has even said herself ("are these changes for real or only until you "win" me back?")

But the one part I've struggeled with since the beginning, is the "fulfilling her EN's (even if you aren't getting anything back in return)." part.

Not being able to deal with not getting anything back in return -- that I understand. I don't like it and it sucks, but I can comprehend that.

The problem seems to be about the "fulfilling her EN's, PERIOD", when she doesn't want me to. She says she needs time and space so she can breathe (she says she feels like she's been in fishbowl for so long -- me scrutinizing her every move, spying, looking disappointed when she doesn't act a certain way towards me -- even complains about the kids not giving her any privacy, even barging in when she is trying to go to bathroom).

Any attempt on my part to fulfill emotional needs just seems to PUSH her away. Me trying to rectify the very things she says now were lacking for so long and led to the affair (lack of communication, my bad attitude, lack of attention), I'm trying FIX and rectify and make up for, but it just seems to push her away. She says to her it seems too forced, etc. etc., I'm trying too hard.

Maybe I am, but I don't know how to meet her EM's any other way than what I'm trying to do now. Ok, admittingly, many of my moves since this started may have been influenced by my spying, and whether I realized it or not, I may have been trying to "compete" with OM, but he was still in picture.

Does this mean he is still in picture, or she is going through withdrawal and just give it a few weeks?

One thing she has said to me after this blew up again (latest discovery last week) is that she needed to end it with him for the same reason she needs space from me, she needs to find a quiet 'place' where her mind isn't spinning and hammering inside her skull. She said that she was aware that she was never giving us a real chance as long as they kept communicating, and now it's over and she just needs to "chill". But then she accuses me of expecting her to fall in love with me again overnight, and it isn't going to happen like that. So I don't know.

Don't have much time to post & I'll be gone till Monday.

Concentrate on eliminating LB's. Be kind, understanding, and pleaseant to her. Make yourself the "safe harbor" in her sea of thought.

Work on being a good dad. Spend time with the kids, include them in what you're doing if you can.

Let your WW have some "space" and be pleasant whenever you interact.

And yes, I do know how hard that can be.

Think of what were going to start as a strategic campain. To begin with with give her a lot of ground so she can start to feel safe. We're mearly giving ground to gain a better position.

Good luck this weekend and watch out for LB's

Stay Strong!

So have you been chatting with this Yahoo girl regularly this past year? If yes, then doesn't that basically make you the pot calling the kettle black?

WTSI,

How did the weekend go?

WTF,

Thanks for asking. Not so good.

Had dinner w/ W and her family Friday night. She went to bathroom with her sister-in-law who she called 2 weeks ago when I discovered again and asked about looking for 3 bedroom houses (she is a real estate agent).

When leaving, I asked her what they talked about, and W got mad (even though she asks me these questions all the time, what did my friend say? what did my therapist say?). I just calmly said that I was curious if you're still talking about looking for another house, since that's what you talked about that day. She got defensive and we both dropped subject.

That night, I slipped a bit. I carried D3 up to master bedroom (still in crib), and opened the door and tripped on a bunch of crap (W has never been very orderly with junk -- the floor is also a junk drawer), and almost fell in the dark.

Then D9 asks W if she can sleep with her that night. At first W said no, because her arm hurts, but then she gave in and said ok. This got to me because I'm going insane sleeping in a seperate bed in seperate room. Then as I'm putting D3 in crib, D9 screams because she stepped on something, and starts blaming me because it is my side of the bed, even though I haven't been in there in over a week. I just storm out and yell, "Goodnight EVERYBODY!" and go down the hallway and slam the door.

W follows me and yells "what's wrong?" (duh.) I just said this is horsesh*t, "I'm getting yelled at by daughter for something in a room that I'm not even allowed to sleep in!" W says, "Then come back in if you want!" (She didn't really mean it, though), and I said "No! I don't want to!" She asked me to help take her necklace off, I did gently, then she grabbed it from me and left.

I went back downstairs for some water, and could hear D9 crying in master bedroom, and W trying to console her. Only heard a bit, like "wouldn't it be better for your mommy and daddy to be apart than together and fighting all the time?"

Next morning, after both D3 and D9 were downstairs watching TV, I went into master bedroom and asked W what she said to D9 last night. She just said she told her that we're going to try to work this out, but sometimes people can't...then it spiralled into big R talk:

She said that she isn't sure if she is meant to be with anybody, that OM has nothing to do with how she feels at this point, that maybe we've both just changed, that if we split, she wouldn't want to be with anyone, she doesn't even feel horny much anymore....then she got into the whole thing about my spying, and how she doesn't feel safe, how she can't have her own private thoughts, she thinks I have the whole house bugged, and (hyperbole) I've put a microchip in her brain.

I told her I pledge the following:
1) I will stop the angry outbursts
2) I will stop with the drinking (even though it was really just that one day)
3) I will put a 100% into this if she is willing
4) I trust her, so it's only fair she trust me.

Went around a circles for a bit, and got into other things, she said again that if I had just let this all go a year ago, when I discovered the first time, it would all be over now (I don't believe her though)...but we concluded R talk with "deal".

She asked me to a bunch of things for her that day while she was out, like scrub her shower and help make her bed when she gets back. I got quite perturbed at this, seeing as how I have to sleep in seperate room, and get no benefit, and was really taking notice of how she was using the singular possessive ("my" bathroom, "my" bed). But I did it anyway with no complaint, and recieved no thank you.

Monday, she calls me on her way to work and just starts screaming like she has lot her mind, "I can't take it anymore, I can't take it anymore, you've stolen my soul, you've raped my mind, I can't have any private thoughts, you taken all my hopes and dreams", and she's hyperventilating...I didn't know how to respond. I tried to just be calm and listen and not retaliate with the obligatory, "you betrayed me! you cheated on me!"...I just let her let it out.

The trading phone calls went back and forth for a bit, then finally she stopped picking up when she got to work.

I sent her an email, saying that if this is it, then so be it, but I want to fix this, and will never look again, and that I trust and forgive, etc.

She sent me email back, going nuts again. The after a few, she sent me one asking me to look into the insurance situation, if both she and her son can still be on my insurance if we get divorced.

I wrote back saying, ok, I'll look into it, but not today, because I can't even think straight. Then I wrote:



She replied:



I replied:



She replied:




I just dropped it that point. She called me on phone again later in day to discuss business (picking up kids, etc.), and we got into a little bit, but not much, and she tried to make it out like it was all me again. It's so one sided with her.

Now she's acting like everything is normal again around house (sans us being together again)...I'm just starting to feel that I'm being used....when she wants something, or needs something, she's nice.

I'm starting to wonder how much I really even WANT to save this anymore. I'm so tired.....

WTSI,

How are things going during the work week? The weekends tend to be more difficult because of your proximity to WW.

Any change in the sleeping sitch? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

How are the kids holding up? It's sounding like WW if trying to prep them for a split up. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

How are you doing on holding back the LB's?

Stay Strong!

That is awful!!! Maybe she has been lieing to herself also...trying to make it work?? Just a thought from someone else in similar shoes!