(sorry, already posted on 'just found out' by accident, meant to post on this one)....

I can't take much more of this.

I was here on these forums a few times last year after I found out W was having EA in May '05.

Many ups and downs since: continued to spy, hoping I would see that "Dear John" letter that never came. Confronted again in July, then again in Oct.

All along, I was supposed to "give her space", and I struggled in the beginning, but got better, but it was tempered and hard due to what I knew was still going on.

She always denied, and when I had proof, she claimed it was not what I think, if I just left it alone, she would have ended it on her own, tried to make my spying the issue, etc., etc.

All along, we still had physical contact, and she was still intimate. After the last major confrontation in Oct., she sent a no-contact letter, and things seemed to get better. Each passing week and month, things were feeling better between us. But I had no way of spying (she found out I was using keystroke software all along), and she stopped using computer in house. But my suspicions were still there. I was driving myself crazy. Was she not logging on to her work email because she was afraid of horrible repercussions if that ever got out (me go to jail, her lose job), or because she was still hiding?

I kept checking public messages posted by her and OM on fanclub website forums where they met, watching when who was logged in when, what they were writing, etc.

Little hints here and there, but nothing concrete. But still...my Spidey-sense was kicking in.

The big concern was the big concert event in NYC in March that everybody on the forum goes too (this is a band website). She's been going for past 8 years and I always trusted her in the past until last year when I found out. I was starting to wonder if there was a cover up to hide the fact that OM was also going. But I didn't really think it was going to happen... things were really going well between me and W.

But still....the Spidey-sense.

Sunday, I go down to computer to pay bills. My nature caused me to open up the "Temporary Internet Files" folder and star t poking around. Guess what?

1. She has been talking to OM again, don't know for how long. The whole NC letter in Oct. could have just been a ploy to throw me off scent for all I know now.

2. She has been saying crap ABOUT ME to him. This hurts.

3. They have been conspiring on getting together in NYC in March, even though he has publicly posted he can't make it, etc. etc. Because of both of their profiles and popularity in the scene, it would take an enourmous amount of energy and coordination to conceal his presence. This goes beyond just plain secrecy and deception in my mind.


I went nuts. We slid back all the way to square one after I confronted on Sunday. All the old stuff came out again. I questioned whether all the "I love you's" and other gestures of affection the past several months have been nothing but B.S. I started drinking vodka at 10 in the morning, would go out and shovel snow for 10 minutes, come in and do another shot, fight, then go back out and shovel some more.

Here's a wrinkle: I was on these forums a few times last year after a few major incidents (the initial discovery and a later re-discover), and every told me to EXPOSE, EXPOSE, EXPOSE. I confronted, confronted, confronted, but always chickened out on exposure.

Sunday afternoon, I thought of that, and maybe the vodka helped, but I said "screw it", and call OM's wife.

Had a real interesting chat. Turns out she discovered on her end last year, but OM convinced her it was over and she bought it. Don't know what happened after our phone talk, whether she confronted OM or not, but I told my wife I calle d her. My wife didn't believe me at first, but was not happy. "How could you do that to that innocent woman? Why drag more people into this? I can't believe you did that"

Today, she said I didn't have the balls to talk to OM personally. Actually, and I told her this, when I called 3 times that day before getting OM's wife, I actually asked for OM. My original intention was to lay into him, I was pretty buzzed on vodka. But after try #4, I got wife, so I talked to her instead.

Needless to say, things arent' good right now. Neither one of us moving out (yet), she is terrified of uprooting daughters, and she claims she called him Sunday and told him never to contact again, and that he is not going to NY, and I have his wife in my back pocket now if I need to confirm that.

I have no way (other than OM's wife) to keep tabs anymore. She will NEVER use the computer in the house again. She claims she feels unsafe around me, but I think she is just angry that she got caught again, and is trying to make my spying the moral equivelent of her cheating.

We've both said we don't know if we even want to try to save our marriage at this point, and she said today that she really needs her time and space, something she asked for since this all started in May '05, and I never truly gave to her, and she needs time and space with both me and OM out of picture so she can sort out her thoughts. She also finally admittted today that she has strong feelings for OM, something she has denied since this has all started.

Don't know where I am going from here....

This is more than just cheating. She is walking all over you in a defiant manner. There is no other solution but to ask her to leave. I believe you cannot recover a marriage with someone that is not interested. Let her go.

ditto Stan - invite her to leave.

This may be one of those rare times when an ultimatum is called for.

Deliver this calmly and with resolve:
"I want to repair our marriage for the sake of all involved. This cannot happen until OM is out of the picture for good. I am in touch with OM's wife, I made a huge mistake believing you in the past, I have no intention of messing around with this any more, so I invite you to dedicate yourself to our family or leave."

Ok, couple things <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> :

1. This is pretty much where we stand. I didn't use this language, but it has been made quite clear where I stand. She says that there will no further contact, and also, that she needs that as well so that she can sort things out. We talked again today, and repeated that OM will never contact again.

2. I don't know if I believe her, because we've been through this before. How do you gauge honesty. Ok, sure, I guess I have OM's wife in my back pocket now (and W knows that), so that might help, but this has happened so many times, and so much has been revealed, that it just might make W and OM smarter about hiding. Kinda like a locksmith and a burgler, each just keeps getting better until the locksmith runs out of tricks.

3. I've pretty much laid out what you said (in different words), except for the part of asking her to leave if she does not dedicate herself to family and marriage. I actually threatened to leave or ask for divorce/seperation. But I know for a fact that if I did give that ultimatum (she leave), she would laugh and refuse -- there is no way she would leave the children (2 daughters: 3 and 9). Possibly she might take the girls with her if she had some other place, but the reality is that if EITHER of use leave, we would be forced to sell house, etc. If it ever came to that, I can see us sitting in paralysis. How do I kick her out? Can I legally do that? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

***How do I kick her out? Can I legally do that?***

She is very defiant. At this point there is not much you can do other than to set up a legal separation. The lawyer can tell you how to put her out of your sight. Recovery is brutal even when the other spouse is fully cooperative. You are spinning your wheels; she sees you as powerless. Best chance is to plan B and hope for the best.

Four times is way too many times.

Good Luck

I don't know anything anymore.

The day of confrontation and exposure, she also called sister-in-law and cousin, (sister-in-law is real-estate agent and cousin has a house they rent), not giving all details, but pretty much leaving cat out of bag.

I heard her crying to her cousin (or maybe aunt?), saying that she "is Grandma 'X', the "next generation" (meaning Grandma "X" screwed up her life by being selfish and philandering and died homeless and alone).

When she called her sister-in-law saying she needs her to start keeping an eye out for 3-bedroom houses that she can afford, I was in earshot in other room and pretty buzzed on vodka, and didn't give a crap, so I screamed out at one point in response to something she was saying "BECAUSE YOU'RE A CHEATER!!!". She said while on phone, "that's right, I'm cheater...."

So knowing her family, I can guarantee that word is out.

I doubt they'll say anything though. The ironic thing is that when I met W in 1991, she was single mom, her X abandoning her and D9 and S6 for my W's best friend. After all that, all that hurt, she is doing this. When I first discovered May 2005, my feeling was that if her family found out, they would CRUCIFY her, but I'm finding that nobody really talks about it.

We are actually getting together with her mom and dad and sister and brother and her brother's inlaws (the wife is the real-estate agent she called) Friday night, and at first I voiced concern that it would be uncomfortable since the in-laws know, but we're going anyway. I know that nobody will say anything.

My BIGGEST struggle right now:

I'm awake at 3:30 AM can't sleep. I dont' know how much longer I can go with this "seperation". It's killing me. It's torture. Even after I first discovered in May 2005, at least, there was still physical contact and sex, we shared same bed, cuddled at night, etc.

Nothing now. It sucks.

We had to meet today for D9 psych. appointment (she has ADHD), and in waiting room, W starts R talk again, and brought up me moving back into bedroom, and said she isn't ready for it yet. She said she feels bad, but needs time and space. She started talking about her friend's parents who at one time seperated for 2 years, but came back and made things better than ever. She said "I'm not saying it's going to take 2 years for us, but I need space right now."

I'm worried that I'm going to crack in the meantime. Don't know if she's talking another week, another month, another year. And she doesn't know either an won't give me hint.

I've still been talking to girl I met on Yahoo Personals last year (when this all started, and out of desperation, and thinking all was over I immediately went out to test the waters), and am so tempted to get together with her. But I don't want to do anything to jeopardize the sitch here if we still have a shot.

I'm so confused and tortured.

It probably isn't helpful at all for you to move out of your bedroom. Such a seperation can only make the situation worse. If anyone should have to move out of their own bedroom, it should be her. She had the affair, didn't she?

If she says she needs some "space" tell her to go in the bathroom and shut the door.

Secondly, if you think she is still in contact I would suggest exposing the affair to her family. If they do know about the affair, which is doubtful, they only know the spinned version she told them. Likely, she distorted the facts in such a way that they don't really know the truth.

And lastly, does your W know that you are having a affair also? You can't criticize her for carrying on an affair when you are doing the same thing. You are married, after all. I would lose the girlfriend YESTERDAY and knock it off.

Want to save it. Okay.....you don't want anyone to move out....you really don't.

This is still going on because you haven't made all the necessary steps to keep it from happening. You didn't expose when you first found out about it. That was a mistake. You need to tell EVERYBODY that would have any sway over your wife, you also need to stay in contact with OM's wife.

You need to move back into the bedroom. You need to get the "Surviving An Affair" book and you need to admit to, and lose the chick on the *personals* site.....you are doing the same thing she is!!!

I wouldn't suggest kicking her out or visa versa. It'll be easier to try to save the marriage if the family is in tact.

God Bless,

-Caren

want to

first of all STOP DRINKING!!

it affects your judgement when you need it

it also does not make things better it just drowns them

AND IT GIVES YOUR ww a perfect defence "look everyone, my H drinks like a fish & abuses me" you might have noticed a WW does not exactly tell the truth nor is bashful about twisting the past & present to her own ends.

Frankly you should be very careful about this sudden change, it may be a real one but it seems her history is very bad in this area.
Now obviously there are a lot of issues in the M - does not matter if you were not aware of them they do exist even if they are your WW.

you definitely need professional advice after 4 episodes of cheating and so I urge you urgently seek help from the Harleys on this. If you dont you may as well just be resign to the M breaking up.

No one of course can say anything you do will work, nor all the plan a & b's in world will have an effect, but if you dont get it right I think you are just setting yourself up for more pain.

Last time you did not expose and do what a correct plan A suggested, you went your own way..what was the result?
This time get off the couch & go get professional advice, to have the best chance of saving your M.

dont waffle, dont talk, JUST DO IT!!!

I know. I actually have to stop drinking coffee, because the pattern seems to be, I'm already emotionally stressed and agitated, I drink tons of coffee throughout the day and get more nervous and agitated, come home, have a drink to take the edge off. Start again the next day.

I've considered this. Not likely...I'm more concerned about it just being a turn-off. She has actually come to my defense behind my back on this. I was late one day getting to D9's psych appointment (she has ADHD and other behavior issues) and W was describing events of last discovery/confrontation/exposure and affect on kids. The Doc at first interpreted her description of that day as that I an alcholic, borderline abusive. She corrected him and made clear that it was just that one day, and things were just bad because tempers were high, and made it clear that I'm not an abusive alcholic.

History makes it hard for me to compeletely trust her on this one, but something 'feels' different. I could be wrong, but I have a feeling that my calling OM's wife made a HUGE difference this time.

She has been quite clear since this started as to what the issues are and how these issues led to A. She seems upset enough about the issues that she knows that they are hurdle to repair (but willingness to try). But I can sense the doubt in her mind that we can ever come back together again, comletely. We talked a few nights ago and she said on scale of 1-10, she feels we have a 6 or 7 chance of just "making things better and tolerable". She started to say what she felt chances were that we could be truly happy couple again, but got interupted, so I never hear her, but I could tell she doesn't think very high. Maybe because she is still in withdrawel from A and is thinking of what she thought she had there in contrast to what we had a LONG time ago, and if we can ever get it back.

Just to clarify, it hasn't really be 4 episodes of cheating. It's really just been one long big one, that I confronted 3 times. I would have confronted more often probably, but in my hurt state of mind, I kept spying and hoping that I would see that "Dear John" letter from W to OM, but it never came, and the confrontations were mostly from anger that reached the boiling point.