IMO, deciding to keep something from your spouse falls under the category of protective lying. For more reference, see SH's "Love Busters", p51.

Come to think of it, protective lying probably is one of the cornerstones of A's - e.g. if the WS was honest to the BS about their feelings and the situation just prior to the A, the A might never have had an opportunity to start and cause so much damage to the M. Protective lying is a habit that any WS who wants to recover their M probably should try to avoid as much as possible. This doesn't mean that you should be callous with the truth! It's possible to answer a question both truthfully AND with empathy.

Also, IMO not disclosing details when your H asks for them is a recipe for recovery disaster, because if any of those details actually come to his ears by another path (e.g. via the OP!), not only would you have lost the opportunity to practice the honesty that he's looking for from you during the recovery process, you might find yourself back at square one in the recovery, depending on how important knowing those particular details are to him. And the more he insists on knowing them, the more likely the answers are important to him.

Finally, the "emotional fallout" that your H is going through as a result of disclosure is because of your A, NOT because of your honesty. I think that it is very, VERY important to make that distinction. If you don't, you may find yourself being tempted to resort to protective lying again.

MIM, I was not providing any excuses for asterix's WS to not share the details with him. I did not say that it was all right for her to keep secrets from him, especially about the A. I was only trying to let him know why she was probably unwilling to share the details. I say probably now because I realized earlier after I posted that I was making a disrespectful judgement on her by speaking of how or what she is feeling. I apologize for that. I should have said that this was what I was feeling when I was first unwilling to share details and maybe she feels the same.

Astrex,

You have been given some great advice here. I would urge you read and reread Tangled's advice. For she is seeing this from your W's point of view. For example she commented that men want the details more than women seem to but don't handle them as well. It is a true observation. However the reason is that most men place more importance in the physical part of the marriage than women do. You want to see women go ballistic here, it is when their H's have an EA, and tell the OW that he loves her, and is emotionally attached to her at a deep level.

Horses and courses, Astrex.

I have one final idea to offer you. Don't ASK her any more questions. Instead write them down, review them to see if they really address what concerns you, and yes this is the time to ask yourself "do I really want to know this or am I just punishing myself and her?"

Writing them down and yes even offering why you want to know something, will help your W address both what you need to know and why you need to know it. She may not understand exactly WHY, but if you seem to know why it will be easier for her to be honest.

Tangled and others also touched on something else. IF you ask a question, be ready for the answer. IF you get angry and blow up, she will shut up to protect both herself and you. You MUST keep her defenses down, and to do that you cannot attack her for being what you say you want...HONEST.

Does this make sense? I hope so. So reread Tangled's thread for within it is a wealth of knowledge about how your W is viewing this. And then reread what others here have posted to you, and I think you will see better how to handle what Tangled is warning you about.

All of this information dovetails nicely, use it wisely.

God Bless,

JL

PS: Also, remember this whole things takes Time and Patience, for it is a process and there are few if any short cuts for either of you. So just repeat the mantra...T&P, T&P, T&P, I am getting tired of T&P, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Could someone please help me with all the acronyms that are used in these threads: BS, WS, FWW, OM, FWS, etc. I have a hard time decyphering their meaning from the sentence sometimes. Is there a place where I can look those up?

Yesterday I spoke to a friend of my wife who knew about the affair. My wife had been reluctant to tell me how she had told about this probably out of fear that I would call them too and make them uncomfortable. This friend was actually very glad that I called. My wife was very worried about this conversation, she probably felt like her friend was exposing a confidential conversation that they had. The friend confirmed a lot of the things that my wife had told me - I guess that in a way it was also the purpose of my call - I need to rebuild trust by knowing that she is telling me the truth. However the friend painted a slightly different picture. She told me that my wife and this guy were very close friends, they saw eye-to-eye in a number of things related to work and were really getting along very well. The friend thinks that the guy took advantage of that friendship and complicity to turn that complicity into some 'fooling around' (kissing) at first and this for a week or two. She thinks that my wife did not intend for that to happen but obviously went along with it. Then, when they were both away from their families, the affair turned sexual. Once again the friend thinks that my wife didn't want to take it this far but once again she went along with it. After that week they were still in touch over the phone but their conversations went back to pure business, there never was another romantic chat or anything along the lines of 'I miss you' or 'I love you'. That part is very strange to me in a way. How can one go from having sex with someone one week then never mention it again and go back to a pure business relationship. At one point it seems that they were talking about attending a conference together. My wife told me that she had ambivalent feelings about that conference. She had considered going to get 'closure' on the whole thing but also thought that it wouldn't be a good idea to be with him again. In my view I don't think that she trusted herself around him. When they were talking about this conference she apparently called him a number of time at work and she was getting angry that he was not returning her calls. She was so angry that she told her friend that she had considered calling his wife to expose him. Eventually he told her not to call his office again. Then the conference never happened. For me this painted a picture of my wife that looked like a 'groopie', a teenager that has a crush, pursues a guy and gets jealous when he doesn't call back. That is just not a side of her that I recognize, but actually I don't recognize her in anything that has happened with this affair.

As for the sexual details, maybe I don't know what I want. Part of me feels that I have a right to know everything about this and that it should be my decision to find out those things or not but that she doesn't have the right not to tell me. Part of me then wonders what I would do with that information. I also worry about the triggers that this will leave in me. This being said I still find myself probing there time and time again. Last night my wife said that maybe we could talk about that with the counselor, and that if the counselor thinks that it would help with the recovery then she would do it. Part of this, I feel, is definitely to protect me, I think that I would be hurt more if I knew the details. And maybe she wonders how our life together would do afterwards if I had all these triggers in my mind. This is all so difficult.

Betrayed Spouse, Wayward Spouse, (Formerly) Wayward Wife, Other Man, (Formerly) Wayward spouse. There is an 'acronym' thread, I'll see if I can find it and let you know.

Hang in there asterix. I can see you love her. Keep that in mind. Love her so that she FEELS loved. Make it completely clear that you care about her and want her to be happy.

That means you will have to work very hard to stay in control of yourself a lot of time, and don't splatter your pain all over the place. Stay in control, keep showing her you love her.

Counseling is a great idea. It will give you a safer environment to talk about things. Even there, keep yourself in control. You are deeply hurt, and it's okay to show your pain. But don't hurt your wife while doing it. Do not attack her, try to make her feel your love at all times - particularly when you are feeling those nearly uncontrollable emotions. You can do this.

God Bless you and your Marriage.

Here it is.
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...part=1&vc=1

Weneedhelp,

Thanks for the acronym thread, not easy when you're a newbie in this discussion group - and I never thought that I would be coming to a site like this...

I do indeed have the feeling that I 'splatter my pain'. I find myself repeating to her over and over how much I hurt, how I feel betrayed, how I can't believe that she would do something like that, how I don't recognize her in those acts, etc. She also sees that I am constantly haunted by those thoughts, that I have trouble falling asleep at night, and that I barely eat. All that she can answer is 'I am so sorry', 'I am worthless', 'I have cause you so much pain'. Obviously I need to express that sadness but I also realize that those conversations are not constructive, we spin our wheels - she feels terrible about herself and the constant reminder of what she did obviously doesn't help. Maybe the professional counseling can help us gain some ground there and be more constructive in our discussions. At this point I also know that she would love to have a break and to be able to be with me, in my arms, without the topic of the A constantly coming up. Obviously that works against being comfortable around me, and therefore further delays the rebuilding of closeness and complicity. As recently as this morning, she was still sending me this email:

"I want to be with you. I am so sorry about what happened. I have deeply hurt you and there is nothing I can do to change it. Telling you what happened was the hardest thing I ever did. I feel guilt, shame, anger at myself. I am physicaly sick about it. I am sorry.".

There is something else I have been wondering about, it's a little embarrassing to talk about this but I guess I will use the anonymity of this side to express it. The day my W admitted to the affair I wanted to be intimate with her. She agreed. I was really shocked that wanting to be intimate would come to mind the same day - afterwards I felt really bad and wondered what was wrong with me. She thinks that it was weird too but I guess that she complied for some reason. Part of me seems to be a purely physical side and seems able to block the emotional side for pure physical satisfaction. As soon as the physical side is satisfied I am back in the depth of the emotional side. But I really wonder if there is something else at play here. I would have imagined that being intimate with her would have been the furthest thing away from my mind at a time like this. Now I guess that we have been intimate a few times since the affair, the only difference is that I did not know about it then. I wonder if this is a form of 'demand' that I have, literally as if I was asking for a form of compensation. For me this is really weird and I don't understand it. I have been thinking about completely abstaining from sex until my head is a bit clearer about all this. Any comments about this?

Asterix,

You seem to be a very clear-headed person who does not react irrationally or let anger get the better of you (except in extreme circumstances that are understandable). This will help you.

From what I can remember, this desire for SF after D-day is natural. If both you and your W are willing, then by all means continue. Hey - take advantage of it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. The time WILL come when either one of you (most likely your W) will no longer be willing to participate. This is when your emotions will really start on that roller-coaster ride and the questions inside of you will hit you non-stop. Be prepared to exercise the most control over your reactions and demands.

Don't be embarrassed. Lots of people here talk about sexual fulfillment (acronym is SF). I agree, the desire for SF after DDay (Discovery Day) is natural. And I think it's probably good to share intimacy with your WW, to remember that you really are, deep inside, a loving committed married couple.

One that is having a rough time currently. I remember too well the pain, and the difficulty in keeping away from the topic of her affair. But you really need to do it. If you can't control yourself you risk driving her away. She could be guilted so severely that she can't bring herself to face you. She could react - like my WW did - by saying to herself "well he's not perfect either and just because he's being so hateful I will be even more hateful about his flaws".

Please take that last one to heart. It can happen. Like many here, I have been seriously flawed as a husband. After her A, my WW really lived my flaws, and at the early stages one of our crisis points was in effect a test of whether I was truly committed to fixing my own flaws. Had I failed to show my commitment and my own remorse at that point, we would likely be in divorce proceedings now.

Fair or not, fairness doesn't matter. Just my opinion, but if you want a good outcome you need to do all you can to draw yourself closer to her and draw her closer to you - despite your pain. Very hard, but you can do it.

Repeating my mantra: I want to love her so that she truly FEELS loved. So that she goes to bed every night secure in the knowledge that she is the most important thing in the world to me. If you can do that you will IMHO greatly improve your marriage's chances, and yourself to boot. Besides, what's the alternative? For her to go to bed every night with the (inaccurate) feeling that I might truly detest her and her actions, and that it's getting worse rather than better, and that she is getting signals I will never get through it? I don't think that's going to get us where we want to be.

I suggest you consider fully 100% committing yourself to building a new better marriage, and keeping your pain from hurting her. Best Wishes.

Astrix,

Just keep in mind if and when you two decide to discuss the details of the sex (SF) with the OM.

As my FWW explained it. It was an EA which the natural course of action over time was to have SF, turning it into a full EA/PA (Emotional/Physical Affair).

She told me because of the emotional attachment she did enjoy it, but she also told me as for his abilities, and other physical aspects "I had nothing to worry about".

I don't think I would have believed her for a minute if I had not heard her telling a friend how good things were between us in bed. She was unaware I heard this conversation.

I guess what I am getting at is this... If she your W were to tell you the SF with OM wasn't enjoyable or as good as with you... Are you going to believe her? Or just think she is protecting your feelings?

If you decide to get detailed info on the actual SF. When you hear something that gets your heart rate really going, expect that will cause triggers later, and stop the conversation. Again take it sloooow.

I also felt that if I knew too much, it would have made healing that much more difficult. I asked questions like: Was it protected, how many times. etc.. While getting those answers, I knew there was nothing else I wanted to hear. Not only for my sake, but his also.

Hi. I agree with Justkeeptrying. I asked about every detail about what he did with her and he was trying to be open and honest and told me EVERYTHING. Now I know so many details that I have this movie that plays over and over in my head every night and I can see everything as clearly as if I were there. Now, every time I hear something like "shower" I think of him taking a shower with her...etc. My advice is to ask general questions that you need to know (i.e. if it wasn't protected she should get tested...etc.). But as far as the details, it is really better to let it go. Now I feel like everything he did with her is no longer special between us, and since that was apparently pretty much everything, I feel like there is so little left that's just ours. Be very careful in learning too much. It isn't worth it. In fact the first few times we were intimate after, I cried sometimes during and sometimes after and sometimes both. Because I couldn't keep myself from imagining that he looked at her the same way he looked at me and that she felt what I felt and that everything was the same except with a different person and that hurt so much that I wasn't even able to enjoy being with him...all because of the stupid details.

Ok..rant over lol <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Sorry if it was too long!

I first learned about the affair less than 2 weeks ago, the emotions in me are still very raw and not completely sorted out. I have had and continue to have a ton of questions for her. However, I am starting to feel that the 'digging' for information is slowing down, I am starting to hit a couple of big rocks like the sexual details for instance, and consequently I am starting to perseverate about trivia. I am also going into the not-so-factual territory of 'how did you feel at the time?', 'what were you thinking at the time?', etc. - which is very difficult if not impossible for her to answer as she will tell me that she doesn't have a 'log of her thoughts and emotions'. It's also an area where the answers vary from time to time and that upsets me. This being said I would love to be in a position right now where I can stop to ask questions - where I have enough to move on. It would be a lot easier on us and on her more specifically. But isn't it too early to ask that of myself? Less than 2 weeks since the affair and I don't ask questions anymore? Would I be too demanding with myself here or is this indeed something I should do?

As for the sexual details it seems that there is pretty much a consensus that I shouldn't dig there as a) I may not like what I find, and b) I would be scared for life. My (F)WW would be happy to hear that because that's a topic she really doesn't feel comfortable talking about. Actually I think that if I keep pressuring her on that I will alienate her completely which will only further delay the recovery. As a middle groud she offered that we should ask the counselor about that, i.e. whether or not it would help with the recovery for her to share those details with me. She said that if that 'specialist' feels that it helps, she would try.


This comment really hits home with me. I do indeed feel violated by what happened, as if I had been robbed of my wife. The couple of time we have been intimate since I learned of the A, and as she was touching me, I couldn't help myself but wonder if she was thinking about him. When we watch TV and we see two people kissing on TV, I wonder if she thinks about him, etc. This is really haunting me. Will that ever wear off?

Yes it will. For me it's a few months in the past, and I can tell it's wearing off. It will for you too.

For us the big move in that direction started when my WW eventually came around to caring about my feelings, and wanting a better relationship with me. That helped me to forget and put away the bad thoughts.

But before she could do that, I needed to first prove to her that I care deeply about her. And that I can provide for her a lifetime of love. And that decades from now she will look back and know that she was loved.

I think that I first had to help her to see that. Once I started to act in such a way that she could start to see a glimmer, things started to improve. She reciprocated, and the healing cycle was underway.

That's the challenge. It's difficult and counterintuitive. I believe that if you respond naturally by dwelling and nursing your grudges it will hinder the start of the healing cycle. OTOH although it may feel unnatural for you as a BH to respond with love and commitment that's the right response. We've all been told that in 1000 great books and movies. But when the time comes it's not easy to take the right path. Would you please try to think about this?

It will wear off. I think the best way to get that underway is for you to prove beyond a reasonable doubt your love for her.

Try not to dwell on what's happened. Instead try to focus first on how you can prove your love for her. IMHO.

Hey asterix. I was just reading through your posts. It really sounds like we are about in the same boat. Sometimes I just want to run away from the whole thing. But it wouldn't help. I torture myself with thoughts of her and him. Can we ever have a sex life again? Really? Is it possible? What have others experienced? If you ever want someone to vent with we could vent together. Sounds like we have the same outlook, plan, ect.. But wow, there are times that 'the plan' just seems impossible. I guess that I come here to vent, to ask questions so I can wake up the next morning and attempt to follow through with what I need to do to make my marriage work. I just try to be strong everyday with my wife. Sometimes I feel like I'm trying to hard, I look desperate, I probably even feel desperate. Like you said in one of your posts, you feel like you are trying harder than her. I know that's how I feel. Most of the time I don't even get any feedback. No hug, no kiss, no understanding words, nothing. But I'm trying, and going to keep trying. I have two kids that I would go to the end of the Earth for. I love my wife. I'm not sure she loves me. If it doesn't work out I want to be able to look myself in the mirror and say I tried everything I could to make it work.

Last night was very difficult - I was really upset about the whole thing and did a lot of crying. She seems to tell me all the right things like 'I want you', 'I want to work things out', 'I never thought about leaving you', 'I love you', 'I am so sorry for what happened', etc. - but part of me doesn't believe her. Part of me thinks that she is with me because I was the 'reasonable' choice, maybe even the 'easy' choice. It's hard for me to accept that - obviously the alternative would be even more terrible.

Apparently the last day my WW was with the OM she told him that she was going home to work things out with me. In her mind that was the end of the A. But I know that the EA lasted longer than that, at least for her. She keeps telling me that she missed the friendship and the companionship that he provided, that she didn't know what the affair meant. Some of the friends she talked to during that time told me that she was confused about her feelings. It is hard for me to accept that she was with me and thinking about her feelings for someone else. She went through a deep depression at that time and was really withdrawn. She told me that she also thought she had lost me and that I wouldn't want to be with her once I found out. The whole thing mixed with deep guilt and shame.

She is supposed to go on a trip with the kids and her mom next week - something that was planned before she told me about the A. I am really afraid of being by myself during that week, alone at night with my thoughts, fears, and anxieties. I also have a lot of separation anxiety at this time, I can't wait to come home and be with her. I just don't think that I can let her get away for that long.

Astrix,

If your W is telling you she loves you, believe her. The best you get from most FWS (formerly wayward spouses) in the early weeks to months is the "I love you, but not in love with you". It sounds like made a mistake, and luckily realized it early. Let her help you heal.

The trip: This is probably a good thing she is going. Gives her a break from the pain you are both feeling. It sounds like you are aware of how badly she feels about her mistake. Be supportive regarding the trip, but tell her your concerns. Keep in mind she is with her mom and your kids. Continue to tell yourself that, and work on you. In the end I believe this will help you deal with the separation anxieties you are feeling, "be thankful she is not going somewhere alone". Your mind would really be racing if that were the case.

Do the feeling wear off: The feeling wear down or dull, become less frequent, but it will be in the back of your mind. Nothing nearly as intrusive as your dealing with now.

Sex: This was a rock and a hard place for me early on. I wanted that feeling of connection, and enjoyed it, but also had the triggers associated with the act. All I can tell you for sure is. I sleep much better the nights that we were intimate.

If your anxieties are that severe, maybe you should see a doctor about AD (anti-depression) meds?

Your doing OK, and will continue to make progress, it's slow but try to measure or landmark the things that do improve. Don't try to fix everything today, continue to tell yourself this is a marathon, not a sprint. Pace
yourself for it.

Hang in there!

Yes she tells me that she loves me and wants to be with me. She realized that she never loved the OM and he never loved her. This being said the thoughts and emotions associated with the A did not end when they separated after the trip and for a period of time she was herself in a recovery period. I feel very jealous that she missed his friendship and companionship but I guess that with time I will be able to get over that.


Here I don't know if I made the right decision or not but I have decided to go with her and the kids. She wanted me to go, she felt that it would be good for us and good for me. She was really excited when I told her that I accepted her invitation. I am going a bit reluctantly but I guess my heart is not into anything right now. Some time away from work, being a bit more distracted than usual, may do me some good. Ideally I would like to be able to shut up about the A during the trip. She really needs a break, she is exhausted by my process of interrogation and it's probably doing us more harm than good right now - plus as I said before I find myself perseverating about trivia and we are spinning our wheels anyway - I hope that the counselor (we have supposed to have our first session in mid-March) will be able to make us do some progress. This being said it will be a true exploit for me if I can stop asking questions for the duration of the trip, but I want to try.


Well I am prone to anxieties anyway, a few years ago I was actually treated for panic attacks, took Zoloft for a while and underwent Cognitive Behavior Therapy (CBT) with a skrink. Since then and thanks to these treatments I have been able to control the anxiety. Obviously this A is playing some nasty tricks on me. Aside from the sadness and all the other feelings (anger, etc) - I sometimes feel wobbly on my legs, I shiver, etc. Symptoms that are probably all related to anxiety.


Yes I need to remember that. I want to sprint because the pain is so intense that I want it to be over as soon as possible. However I also understand that this is also a long process and I am probably just in the early stages of it. My luck at this time is that my wife seems to be completely committed to working things out with me and to rebuild our mariage. I hope that we will succeed.

I thinks it's a great sign that your W asked to to go along. She must obviously want to you go, or she would have found or attempted to find reason to get away without you.

Now in order for it to be positive, you do need to give her a break from the pain she is dealing with. Yes it will be tough, but do it, and concentrate on nothing but a relaxing break from all of this. If you can do this, it will be a major score for both of you. Otherwise it maybe best to stay back.

A note from my own exprience. If you drink socially, avoid alcohol. When my W and I went out alone or with friends shortly after D-day, a few drinks, and I was locked back into dealing with my own pain, making the evening alot less enjoyable than is should have been.

Yes well my wife has a head start on me for those things. The PA has been over for 7-8 months and the last phone contact with the OM goes back to almost 5 months. So she has had a lot of time to think about what she wants out of our relationship. As for me I only learned about the A less than 2 weeks ago, my emotions and feelings are still very raw. She is actually a bit worried about that. I tell her that I want to work things out and save our marriage but part of her thinks that she will only really know once the dust settles for me. She is still not sure that I will want her around once all my emotions are sorted out.

I will try my best to do that. I can't guarantee that I will be Mr Happy all the time but I will try to avoid the topic of the A or ask questions. She knows that it will be difficult for me and she already told me that she wouldn't be angry at me if I brought it up. She realizes that I am still very early in the process. This being saif I would like this to be a nice vacation for her and the kids and I will do my best. She is definitely very excited that I am going - that feels good. I will take your advice and stay away from liquor.

This being said, Justkeeptrying, sometimes I have the feeling that you are recommending a lot more effort from the BS than from the WW - making her feel loved at all times, giving her a break, etc. - I am not saying that this is not the way to go but shouldn't the BS be the one that is pampered, loved, cherished, and protected?