asterix, you're doing great and as JKT pointed out, your FWW is doing more than most. Managing your emotions, as you have already stated, is important for you right now. Easier said than done, I know.

You need to focus on becoming the kind of H that she WANTS to be with. It will be hard for her to constantly keep hearing about the biggest mistake of her life.

What helped for me was to vent in IC, or write down my feelings. Keeping them bottled up is no good. But directing my raw anger at my FWW was not helpful in the least.

Do you have other avenues to vent? The driving range ended up being my best method <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Well it's true, compared to some of the other stories I have read, it seems that my situation is not the worse. According to my W, she always loved me, never thought about leaving me, has always understood that what she had done was a huge mistake, wants to stay with me, and wants to rebuild our mariage. The A was also over by the time I found out and they were in NC for 3-4 months by the time she admitted it. I wonder what would have happened and how she would have reacted if I had found out about this when it was going on...but I guess I will never know. So, yes, keeping in mind that everything is relative, it could be worse, but let me tell you that it is by far still the most painful and devastating experience of my life.

This site has been a nice avenue for me to vent and verbalize my emotions. I have also shared the story about the A with my closest friend and he has been very helpful. Other than that that's pretty much it.

I think that her only area of dissatisfaction with me has been the lack of affection/attention. For a period of time leading to the A I just wasn't paying much attention to her, she had raised a red flag a number of times but I think that I never really understood what she meant and what she wanted. After the A (but still not knowing about it) I was traveling a lot and started to really cherish my time with her, looking forward to being with her, seeking her attention and wanting to give her mine. However at that time she is the one that wasn't letting be afectionate. She recently told me that she felt she didn't deserve it and that if I knew the truth that I wouldn't want to touch her or be with her, so she distanced herself from me out of shame and guilt and kept to herself. So this further deepened the emotional gap between us. Now obviously the A is out in the open. It will take time for us to get closer but it seems that we both want that to happen. I think that we are both eager to regain the complicity and closeness that we had when we were dating or were newly weds. But we also both understand that it will take time. I think that if we can be successful there and if I can avoid torturing her with the A, then I think that we will be the perfect mates for each other.

This leads me to the topic of SF. Our sex life has basically sucked for years now, both in quantity and intensity. She will tell me that she had a hard time being 'physically' close when we were so 'emotionally' distant. Even though she tells me that she was not looking for a PA, and that since the PA she is overall 'negative' about the idea of sex, I wonder if there is a need there that she is not expressing, maybe because she is embarassed to bring it up, or maybe even embarassed to admit it to herself (possibly due to education, upbringing, shame, etc). Bottom line she had a PA and had sex with the OM three nights in a row so there must have been a need or a desire there that she wanted to fulfill. I just wonder if there isn't an untold emotional need there. How can I check that? Should I try to spice things up and see how she reacts? Is it too early for me to venture in those waters? I am thinking that this period of our life may be the right time to turn things around there too. Any advice/opinion along those lines?

asterix, IMHO that's a really promising avenue to pursue. I don't mean the SF particularly, I just mean the general idea of asking what you yourself can do to improve yourself and your approach to the marriage, and how you can be a better husband. I hope you will keep going that direction..

I've been through this (sig line below). That doesn't mean I know the answers. I don't. But I do know that one answer for me is to be the best husband my wife could ask for. I think that would work for your marriage. God bless.

Well, quite an interesting night last night. The OM’s W called me back. To make a long story short she threw her H out of the house and they have been separated since I told her what happened. He apparently tried to deny most of it saying things like ‘it only happened once’ (when in fact they had sex the whole week), or ‘I couldn’t perform’ (where apparently that wasn’t a problem), or ‘It was brief’ (when in fact they would spend the whole nights together), or ‘I used a condom’ (when in fact he didn’t) – she confronted him on this lies and he eventually retracted. His W realizes that he was lying through his teeth about most facts related to the A and she has absolutely no trust in him. The more devastating information I heard was that he essentially blamed my W for the whole thing, saying that she planned it all, initiated it all, had actually reworked her schedule to spend a maximum amount of time with him, invited herself to his place the first night (my W tells me that he is the one who invited her), etc. My W also supposedly had this big ‘master plan’ to eventually tell me about the A so that I would tell his W so that they could both be separated and could live together. He said that my W had always hoped that at some time they would end up together. Basically he is trying to make himself appear as a pawn in my W’s game. My W appeared shocked when I told her what the OM’s W told me. She completely denies the ‘master plan’ theory and said that she never thought about leaving me for him. She denies reworking her schedule to be with him, etc. At this point I just don’t know who to believe, I really want to believe my wife but I am so afraid that she is lying to me too and trying to protect herself at this point, just like he is. So most of last night and this morning I was questioning her incessantly, asking her for facts, asking the same questions over and over. Several times she told me that my questions were not helping and we were not getting anywhere, that we needed the counselor to discuss this. She also told me that she felt ‘frightened’ not knowing why exactly but just a feeling she had. At this point I just don’t know what to do, is she lying to me? How can I find out? Is she telling me the truth and he is just trying to find a scenario that minimizes his role in the A? Is she indeed completely insane and still hoping that they can be together? Will I ever really know the truth?

Based on what's happened so far, if I was you I'd more quickly believe your FWW's version of the story. The OM has been exposed as a lying [email]b@stard[/email], so it's no wonder your FWW feels like that. My advice: stop the questioning unless you're trying to find out something from her that you don't know already. You could try creating a journal of what you know about the A, and use that to guide/limit your questioning to the things you don't know and REALLY need to find out. It will also help to highlight any inconsistencies in her story, if there are any.

This is kind of what I have done with my cause-effect diagram (see earlier posting), basically trying to summarize what I ‘know’ or at least what I think I understand. So far I have to admit that the inconsistencies in her stories have been 'minimal', I would almost say 'technicalities'. No big revelations or retractions on anything, at least not yet.

But the problem is that I feel the need to perseverate on the things that I supposedly already 'know'. I will come back to the same things over and over again because I really don't trust her answers, or I want to test them again to make sure that she says the same thing and sticks to her story. I think that it's that part of our discussions that really bothers/annoys her as she feels that we are not making any progress. She definitely feels that she has already answered the same questions many times, sometimes she will even tell me "Tell me what you want to hear and that's what I will say". She has the feeling that I don't really listen to her and that I am looking for some other answer, and until I get that answer I will keep asking her the same questions over and over. She is probably right about that.

At this point I am also more inclined to believe her version than that of the OM, but still with some caveats. She has shown more honesty than he has – she has admitted the A (although 7 months after it took place) and has been fairly forward with the facts associated with it (although they were provided in a ‘piece meal’ fashion in the days/weeks that followed). But after what happened, it is just difficult for me to really ‘trust’ her. I am so suspicious about everything.

This morning I sent her another email, basically summarizing what the OM’s W had told me and asking her to clarify (again) her answers to some of the questions that I have asked. When I spoke to her on the phone afterwards she told me that she was not interested to go over the same things again, that she felt we were not making progress. So she basically declined to respond.

She tells me that I don’t seem to care about what she says, what she thinks, and what she feels comfortable talking about (e.g. details of the sexual A). I told her that I thought it was selfish for her at this time to think like that as her ‘discomfort’ was not comparable to what I was going through. She also feels uncomfortable around me because of my mood swings. She will tell me “one minute you’re being nice to me and telling me that you love me and the next you’re ready to throw me out of the house”. I am on a roller-coaster of emotions and I feel that I am really taking her for a ride with me. In a way I think that I should minimize the external ‘stimuli’ that I get like when I’m talking to the OM’s W or to the friends that she shared the A with. Everyone seems to have their own opinion and interpretation of things but really I am still not seeing any new facts or new evidence, just hearsay. Those external ‘stimuli’ or pseudo-sources of information are really a double-edge sword, sometimes they calm me down because I am hearing good things, other times they really throw me in a spin of emotions because I start imaging a completely different scenario. But yet I feel compelled to seek that ‘information’ to double-check what she is telling me. It is a vicious circle that’s basically fueled by my lack of trust – and my emotions are all over the place.

Astrix,

I honestly understand your frustration here, but I'm telling you at some point you need to stop with the attempts to recreate her A. It's done, clear the chaulk board, asnd carry on.

Now is the time to focus on the post devistation repairs. Your W is with you, wants to be with you. Try to re-direct this mental energy toward letting go, and moving on. It will lighten the load you are both carrying.

JKT - I often start or end my day with that resolution "focus on the present and the future, the past cannot be changed" but then I miserably fail and regress to analyzing the A. Since yesterday, the thought that there may be a 'master plan' to eventually leave me to be with him is really scaring me - but I also think that my wife would literaly have to be insane/demented to think that they could reconnect at this point (it seems that the OM has not interest in contacting her, and she tells me that she doesn't want that either). I am afraid that I am not making my decision to move on based on solid grounds right now, that maybe I am still living an illusion, that maybe I still don't really know what's really going on - and that's really slowing down my 'progress'.

Asterix-
I know exactly what you are going through. My WH confessed his 2 yr A on 2/1/06. H only confessed because the OW threatened him that if he didn't leave me, she would come over to our home and tell me herself. I threw him out that night. We were only married 2-1/2 yr. We've always known we had issues to work on and we went counseling.

While throwing him out is not advised on MB, the seperation in some ways helped us. I forgave H on Valentine's Day as my gift and commitment to wanting to rebuild our marriage. Although he made me believe he wanted the same thing, I went through the same anxiety you are going through. But like your WW, he kept lying.

We saw each other 2-4 times a week to try to rebuild our marriage which was very encouraging. I tried my best to not bring up the A each time, but we both agreed that we would need to from time to time and we did so in a calm manner. Although I knew H was still in contact with OW, I had to ask if he was sleeping with her while he and I have been sleeping as well. With a straight face, he said no. My gut feeling said otherwise. Contact the OW on 3/1 and she confirmed my suspicion. That night, I decided that I was done.

MB forum has helped me in two ways. One, it became the main source of support and helped me understand the dynamics of what makes marriage intact. Two, it helped me decide what I needed to do next was to take care of myself first.

People make the conscious decision to have affairs have a very low self esteem, and they don't love and respect themselves. If they did, they would know how to love and respect those they profess to love. It's all about them.
And what I came to realize is that my H has become a master in lies.

To keep my sanity, self respect and dignity intact, I had to ask myself these questions:

1. Am I willing to trade in my self respect in order to cater to my WH emotional needs while he go through all stages while I suffer emotionally indefinitely? And even if he pulls through it, do I want to spend the rest of my life with this man wondering if he'll ever be faithful again?

2. Am I going to keep what's left of my dignity, self respect and sanity and walk away knowing that I will never have to wonder if my WH will ever be faithful?

I decided to go with question number two because it guarantees that my WH can't hurt me anymore. And I also know that there are people out there who will not compromise their self respect regardless when they encounter problems in their relationship.

Good luck.

Astrix,

Again all totally understandable.

Life as you knew it has changed.

Everything you felt sure of is now in question.

The trust you had for your W, has been shattered.

You have been hurt, and although you want a solid unwaiverable M, you also have to protect yourself from further damage.

These factors will continue to leave you questioning everything. Making you hyper-sensitive. But will settle in time.

To answer question 1:
First I hope that I will not suffer emotionally indefinitely - a lot of people have told me that things get better over time. I want to believe that even though at this time the pain is so intense that I feel that it will never go away. Self-respect is a tough one. Basically I am asking myself if I want to throw away my past with her, my future with her, all our experiences, and jeopardize the stability of my family because of this A. Can I really give that much power to that one-time event? Can those few weeks weigh that heavily in a lifetime? Is it a lack of self-respect to try to find the will to forgive the one you love for the terrible thing that they have done? Is it a lack of self-respect to want to rebuild a life with the person who has betrayed you but seems genuinely interested in living the rest of their life with you? The question of trust is a tough one too and one for which I don't have an answer. I think that everyone who has been cheated on lives in the fear of this happening to them again, and I am no exception. That fear paralyzes me. Part of it we can try to control by trying to rebuild a vibrant relationship (e.g. rules of care, protection, honesty, and time), part of it is always going to be out of our control as we can't control the actions and emotions of our spouse. So here the only thing we can probably do is 'mitigate' the risk. Here my wife tells me that it will 'never' happen again, that she went through the most painful experience of her life and has caused so much damage that she never want to repeat the same mistake. It's understandable that she would say that now, do I believe her? Well I just think that we have to mitigate the risk together by working on our relationship and hope for the best. There are no certainties in life (other than death and taxes!).

To answer question 2:
I obviously thought about throwing her out of the house but I couldn't do it. First I think that it would not make my healing easier, I would still be in a lot of pain and it would also cause a lot of stress on my family, and then I would miss her. More importantly I still really love her and I want to live the rest of my life with her. When I spoke to the OM's W, she told me that she no longer had feelings for him, she felt numb and wanted him out of her life. Personally I don't want those things. I am anything but numb, actually my emotions are raw and intense: love, anger, jealousy, sadness - but I can't imagine myself living without her and I think that she is honest when she tells me that she wants to spend the rest of her life with me too. Now, does that make me less dignified, less sane, and less self-respectful? I don't know.

No it makes you smart enough to realize a decission of this magnitude requires alot of thought. Removing the emotional knee jerk reaction lots of people end up questioning or regreting later.

If you put the time and effort into this, and then things still fail. It wasn't because you didn't make the effort.

That's also how I feel - we have so much invested in our life together and in our relationship that I think it deserves at least one solid attempt at recovery. Hopefully it will be successful.

Yesterday when I spoke to the OM's W, I really felt that she had given up on her marriage - she spoke about separation, divorce, and moving on with her life. I felt awkward about giving the OM's W some advice but I told her that she shouldn't rush things and not let the A do more irreparable damage.

But this being said I think that the situation is a bit different for her. After D-Day she still sees a lot of lying and she recognizes somewhat of a pattern in his behavior - she tells me that he has always been very flirtatious with women and over the last 2 to 4 years she has had some real concerns: one time one of his other female co-workers propositioned him and he supposedly declined - he told his W who confronted the woman. Then there was another instance of a younger female co-worker who would call his house to talk about 'personal matters'. Once again his W intervened and told the other woman never to call again. Now she really wonders if this is truly his first A as he claims. Still she told me that before I told her about the A she had complete trust in him. She even told me that when I started telling her about the A she wanted to interrupt me because she just didn't think that her H could do such a thing. It's only when I kept talking and presented the evidence that she came to the conclusion that I was telling the truth. It's at that time that she said she felt a 'metal door' slam in her mind and she stopped having feelings for him, going numb immediately. She immediately packed up the kids and went to her parents for the weekend. Since then they have lived apart. In hindsight I think that she really did not want to know about this. She tells herself that if she had stayed in the dark she would have been happier and maybe it would have never happened again. In a way I think that I forced my thirst for honesty onto her, believing that everyone would want to know about something like this. But maybe that wasn’t the case for her. Now she sees her world collapsing. Ignorance is indeed bliss for some people.

As for me the situation is still far from improving right now. I had my W on the phone a couple of minutes ago and she was in tears. She feels physically sick because of the stress level right now. She is completely destabilized by my mood swings. Earlier she told me “Last night you said that you loved me and that eventually I would have to forgive myself for what I did – this morning you basically told me that maybe I shouldn’t be coming home tonight”. She will then say that sometimes I give her hope and other times I take it all away. I do realize that I am doing those things, sometimes it feels like I am unconsciously toying with her, pushing her away and them bringing her back, expecting that she will take it and still tell me that she loves me and is sorry for what she did, and possibly even have sex with me afterwards. I do have to stop this destructive behavior if I want a chance at recovery. Does anyone have any suggestions in how to get out of this vicious circle? Please help.

I have found it helpful, when dealing with conflict, to distinguish between three possible responses:

1 - attack - "I am unconsciously toying with her, pushing her away"

2 - avoid - "this morning you basically told me that maybe I shouldn’t be coming home tonight"

3 - confide - tell her how you are feeling, hurting, thinking, respectfully, without demanding anything in return.

You both need to give yourselves some time to deal with this. It WILL be a bumpy ride. Expect flare ups and arguments but always come back and ask forgiveness and constantly remind each other that you intend to make this work.

Why do you betrayed husbands put yourself through this kind of torture? If your wives loved you to begin with, they wouldn't have cheated on you. Why suffer twice? Find somebody that will respect you enough to not cheat on you. Not that such a woman exists but atleast you know with your WWs you're not getting the respect there.

Rick7355 - I am looking for PRO-marriage help here.

I did, the first time that my FWW told me that. That first A of hers happened before we were M'd. We're now recovering from her second A, and I'm not prepared to accept such comments at face value again.

While your WW says she wants to spend the rest of her life with you, that alone should not be enough to convince you ('cause isn't that what she suggested in her M vows to you?).

You can rebuild your relationship, but part of that rebuilding requires your WW to look into herself and "fix" whatever it is that made it acceptable to have an A.

ManInMotion,

I completely agree with you and I have discussed this topic with my W. I also hope that counseling will help there - when I made the appointment the counselor said "your W will also have to learn that the A was not the appropriate answer to whatever was going on" - so I got the message that he will dig into that as well.

So far I am not sure that she understands what she needs to 'fix' per se. She understands that she can never let herself get that close to another man again (friendship led to EA, EA led to PA). I also think that the friendship led to an EA to compensate for the emotional connection she felt she lacked with me at the time - a fix for the loneliness - she doesn't deny that. But I think that we will have to dig deeper in matters of self-esteem, communications (did she fail in communicating her needs for affection? Did she give up?), and god knows what else.

Typically what have you seen that WW needed to 'fix' to avoid another A? What root causes were identified?

That's one of those things that worries me a bit in our recovery. I'm not sure that my FWW had truly looked inside herself for an answer to that question. She probably thinks the A happened because the OM was meeting ENs that I wasn't meeting, but if it was just about missing ENs, it's likely we would all be having As. There's a bit more involved than simply ENs that are not being met.

What do emotional needs have to do with having sex with another man? Those are sexual needs. And if you believed your wife before you got married and when you took the vows to be faithful to one another, why would you trust her now? Leave her and don't look back.