Maril – thanks for showing me that I am not the only ‘nut’ out there ;-)
When I put my thinking hat on I realize that my paranoia is no longer justified. The A is over, everything is out in the open, and there is nothing else to be discovered. I will however need to remain vigilant, but obviously there is a big difference between vigilance and paranoia/amateur espionage. This being said I still feel the need to ‘kick the tires’ several times a day: knowing where she is, who she is calling, what she is doing. Hopefully with time, and my trust in her slowly rebuilding, I will be able to go from this state of wacky hyper-vigilance to a more balanced, yet not as naïve, lifestyle.

Just this week my FWW and I scheduled (and had) a conversation about my triggers. When it started she looked scared, worried and defensive.

But I only wanted to apologize for my occasional paranoia and loss of control, and to say that I can tell I'm getting better about the triggers, and will continue getting better. She understood and accepted, said she doesn't blame me for having triggers and is happy that I'm committed to controlling them. It was a positive and upbeat conversation, and a relationship-builder.

Anyway, IMHO. IF you can talk about your triggers and paranoias in the right way (that's the key bit) you can build the relationship. JMHO, your mileage may vary.

Remember that you love her when things get sticky.

Astrix,

Putting your paranoia to rest is a huge step which will inturn ease the urge for questioning.

That is not to say your mind won't still wonder what is she doing? When deep down you know she is where she is suppose to be.

My recommendation would be to make light of it.

Call her on those nights she has to work late and say

"Just a call to say I love and miss you, and to duct tape the mouth of that little voice in my head."

It will get better, and I think you can see the light at the end of the tunnel, and no it's not an oncoming train.

By the way I put an end to the idea of the ‘email trap’ (see earlier post) in a ‘radical’ way. I actually told my W about the idea (radical honesty), told her why I had thought about doing it (lack of trust), and told her why I didn’t do it (didn’t think that anything good would come from deception). She wasn’t mad at me for thinking about doing this – not happy about it, but not mad. She just told me that if she had received an email from him, she would have deleted it without reading it; just the same way she handled the previous one. I just wanted this to be an example of the radical honesty contract that I want to establish between us. I felt that I needed to tell her about this email trap idea because it was more than a passing thought, I actually had to convince myself a few times not to send it. I also told her because it illustrates my current mindset regarding trust, so in a way it’s a window (although a dark one) on my feelings and emotions – one that hopefully helps me understand me a bit better right now. Last but not least, telling her about this bad idea killed the idea, it’s now a non-issue.

I have also created a ‘question log’ where I document the questions that I would like to ask her. It’s interesting to see how just writing them down sometimes makes them look silly and worthless. I found myself deleting many of them. One that seems to stick is ‘what led to the A?’, in other words does she understand the mechanics and chain of events that led her to that decision. I did ask her that one before and she keeps telling me that she doesn’t have an answer for me, that it’s a complex ‘thing’, and that she has learned her lessons. That may be an area that the counselor will dig in, I hope so. Other than that the challenge will be to 1) stop the drive-by questioning and sticking to ‘scheduled question times’, and 2) not let each documented questions trigger another 20 undocumented ones which would defeat the purpose. Funny how everything seems to be such a challenge for me these days.

Great idea with the log! On the 'what led to the A'?, I had the same question.

Her first answer: just for an adventure. She was at a convention, re-met an old friend that she'd always had a crush on, had too much to drink, and let herself get carried away. Then continued misbehaving when she returned home.

Her second answer: deeply unmet emotional needs, and long-simmering resentment over the way I'd treated her for many years. Probably that left room in her heart for an A, while the first presented an opportunity for her to take a wrong turn. If I hadn't left room in her heart for an A she likely wouldn't have taken that wrong turn.

My program is to fill her heart with love for me. I think that will work for you too.

Look for "The 15 Stages of Unfaithfullness". If you structure your questions in line with the stages, you should get the answer that you're looking for.

I think that last night I did a pretty good job at providing a comfortable environment. I didn’t bring up the A at all, we enjoyed the kids, read them some stories, then went to bed, cuddled, and even made love. It was a nice conclusion to what had been a difficult day for me. All day, I had consciously fought memories of the A and painful thoughts of them together. It literally comes to the point that I have to tell myself ‘NO’ and barricade those thoughts from my conscience. I also repeated the serenity prayer a few times and prayed. That seems to be working but it is a constant effort and a true personal battle.

ManInMotion – where can I find a copy of the “15 Stages of Unfaithfulness”? I Google it but I am not coming up with anything. Is that something you could send me by any chance?

WeNeedHelp – I do recognize that she had some unmet ENs with me as well (actually we both had some unmet ENs). She had brought those up to my attention a few times before but I think that we didn’t communicate very well and I never really understood what she meant or what she wanted. At some point I think that she told herself that I just didn’t care. As for me I guess that I didn’t get the message and didn’t understand the criticality of her cry for help. As a result, it’s fair to say that we were ‘emotionally disconnected’ for a long period of time before the A and she felt lonely and not close to me at that time (note that she has never used this as an excuse for what happened – at least not explicitly). I understand that this must be a focus area for both of us and I will do my part here. Aside from getting over the A itself, this will be one of our most important challenges going forward. This being said, at some point, she ‘made the decision’ to have an A. I put the phrase “made the decision” between quotes because I don’t think that it was necessarily a ‘decision’ per se, at least not a well thought out one or a conscious one. She will indeed admit that she “was not doing a lot of thinking at the time”. But the bottom line is that SHE DID IT. That is also what I want to understand – what made her take that step? After the first kiss, what didn’t she stop (led to two weeks of ‘office romance’)? After the first night of sex, why didn’t she stop (led to 3 nights in a hotel while on a business trip)? Basically what I am saying is that I understand that WE have to work on a certain number of things together but SHE also has to understand why she let herself have an A. Do all people with unmet ENs have affairs? Are unmet ENs a necessary and sufficient condition to have an A? If that was the case, wouldn’t 100% of married people out there have extra-marital relationships? Don’t we have to understand this to prevent re-occurrence?

Kudos to you asterix. Very very well done. I understand the constant battle, but please have faith that in a few weeks the battle will be less constant, and then continue to diminish over time. I've been surprised at how quickly we've been able to rebuild our relationship, including love, intimacy, and even some trust.


I relate to every single word in your post. I think I can really understand where you are with this. Unfortunately, I don't know the answers. Not much experience really, just 9 months of pain, reading, talking, scanning posts on MB...

With those caveats, here are my guesses. Are unmet ENs are necessary for an A? Depends on the person. Some people just do it. In my case (and yours I think) I am blessed with a wife who is truly a good person. Kind, caring, loving, and a wonderful wife and mother. I don't think she would have had an A if I had been the perfect husband to her.

My recent deep commitment to her has, I think, had a strong impact on her. I did not make that commitment in order to affair-proof our marriage, rather I came to see that I am called to be as good a husband as I can be. However. If one side effect should be that our M will be affair-proof, I won't object.

Why don't they stop once started with that first meeting of the eyes, or first kiss, or first sexual activity, (or the 10th)? That's a tough one. In some cases it may be that the WW loves the OM. In other cases OM may meet unmet ENs. Or sometimes sexual needs. Or some - as in my case I think - may continue just because it's fun and exciting. After 13 years of M to me, she was probably ready for something different.

Related question: Why do they stop? I'll leave that one to the Harleys. But in my case, mine stopped when she came to realize that I could not continue to be married to her in that condition. If I hadn't reached that stage, she may have continued for a long time.

All this is JMHO of course. I'll add a thought about other conditions that may have contributed: In my case, my FWW's parents and siblings have had a nonnegligible amount of experience with A's. (e.g. her father - who is truly a wonderful person - had an A many years ago). I think that prior exposure may have made it possible for my FWW to conceive of an A as being on the menu for her. One other thing to mention: FWW had had a couple of health scares, and the realization of mortality may have had an impact as well. And another; she didn't have much fun in/after college, and probably felt deprived and due for some sexual experiences.

'Sufficient'. Hmm. I don't know if anything is either necessary or sufficient. There seems to be a lot of randomness. Start with some environmental conditions that may make an A conceivable (failure to have ENs met, family history, knowledge of friends involved in an A, mutual attraction..), add some stimulation, also maybe the right opportunity, and maybe - or maybe not - you get the affair.

Personally I avoid those kinds of environmental conditions where I can. E.g. there are some women I am attracted to, and because of that avoid. I just don't want to get close to women I'm attracted to. Can be a friend to most women, but not that kind. (It can be kind of awkward, but I'll pay that price).

Anyway. IMHO it's pretty random. But still there's a deterministic element that you can influence. I think your heart (also your wife's heart) is right, and you understand. Because of that I think you will succeed. You know there is a serious need for you to build, build, build your new better relationship with your wife. For me, and for you I think, it is entirely feasible to end up with a M that is better than before. That's my wish for you.

(I guess you have some mathematical background? One doesn't see 'necessary and sufficient' too often.)

I'll venture to say that the necessary and sufficient come from a philosophy background ;-)

IMO, unmet ENs are necessary but not sufficient to cause an A. There is always a moment betweens stimulus and response where you choose.

Exhibit #1: Me. I have had unmet EN's but have not chosen to have an A.

Exhibit #2: My FWW. She had unmet EN's and chose to have an A.

Exhibit #3: (unknown) Can someone provide an example of a person whose ENs were consistently met in every regard, yet still chose to have an A?

I suspect such an individual cannot be found. If I am correct, then unmet EN's are necessary but not sufficient.

.

Hi there, I'm pretty much in the same boat as you. I found out during Feb'06 and nothing has been the same since. My emotions are playing roller coaster with me at this stage and I suppose that is not helping much to restore anything. I am currently struggling with anger and would like to know if you took any legal action against the other male and/or if provision is made in the law at all if one is not contemplating DV

Intention – thanks for the breakdown. You’re probably right, unmet ENs are a necessary condition but do not always lead to an A, therefore they are not a necessary and sufficient condition. My W still tells me that she does not understand why she did it, sometimes she won’t even acknowledge that she had unmet ENs, or at least not enough unmet ENs to justify what she did. Then when I ask her why she had the A, her only answer is always ‘I don’t know’, ‘I don’t have an answer for you’, or ‘I just liked spending time with him’. I can't tell you how frustrating it is for me to hear that. Part of me thinks, "look you have had 7 months to think about this before you told me, don't you understand why it happened???". So then she brings up the MC and tells me that maybe, with his guidance, she will be able to formulate an answer that satisfies me... I have the feeling that I shouldn't hold my breath. (I am sure you can tell the type of mood I am in right now)

Of course I am going with the assumption that understanding WHY (which unmet ENs, and what else played a factor) it happened -and obviously addressing that- will help prevent re-occurrence. Is that a valid assumption? If we just focus on meeting the ENs and ignore the other factors, are we only addressing part of the problem?

Your W does not have a compelling interest to really understand why she did it. She'd rather move on and not constantly be forced to relive something that has caused her guilt and shame. I think my FWW is in the same boat. For her, it happened so long ago that she doesn't care to remember.

You obviously have a sharp mind that likes solving problems. So for you, this is the most important problem you could have - to understand why it happened so you can establish the conditions that will prevent it from recurring. So yes, your assumption is valid. I'm in the same boat.

MC will really help you guys with that. My FWW did not feel supported because I tried to solve problems, instead of simply validating her feelings and showing empathy.

When she confided that she was worried about being pregnant so early into our marriage, my response was to compensate with excessive optimism. I told her everything would be alright. I tried to solve her problem. She did not want to hear that. She wanted me to validate her anxiety, echo her fears back to her, to really feel understood. I did not know how to do that.

Asterix - You asked about the 15 steps of unfaithfulness. It is a post here. See this link: 15 Steps

I think yes and yes. No guarantees, but it will make a re-occurrence much less likely. Another part of the problem is to show her you are fully dedicated to making a beautiful life for her, whether or not she makes an enormous mistake (such as her A). She needs to know that she will be able to look back in 50 years and feel that she was loved with all your heart. When she understands that, then she will be unlikely to make a mistake like that again.

I have just been through an interesting weekend. Saturday didn’t start very well: we talked about the A, we argued, I was feeling sad and depressed. Then something happened…the OM called my house…

He talked about the destruction in his marriage (his W won’t talk to him anymore and is completely changing the career plans that they had, he is afraid he won’t get to see his kids anymore, he is worried about his own career and his reputation, his W accuses him of having other A’s, etc.), he was obviously upset that I had called her to let her know about the A (he told me that she didn’t want to know about it, that she is the true victim in this, that I shouldn’t have shared so many details, etc.). Then at the same time he was apologizing about what happened, told me that what they did was very selfish, that for him this was an ‘ego booster’ because he was supposedly having problems in his M at the time, etc. Then he went with his version of the facts again: he didn’t want to talk to my W after the events, my W was the one calling him, my W was the one trying to find opportunities for them to be together as well, he is the one who ‘broke it up’, etc – all things that my W still denies: she will say that she would call him but he would call her as well and that he never said anything about not wanting to talk to her, he is the one who brought up the idea of a conference they could both attend, etc. The OM also kind of asked me if I was trying to work things out with my W, etc. He kept asking me ‘What do you want to know?’ – I told him that I already knew everything. Obviously he is pissed off that I called his W and even more pissed off that my W told me about the A (he said that he was planning to take the secret to his grave). He is seeing the destruction that this has caused in his relationship and possibly his livelihood and he is very upset about that - understandably. I get the feeling that he is more pissed off about these things than he is about having had an A in the first place. Maybe he still hasn’t accepted the fact that HE is responsible (as well as my W) for what happened. My talking to his W about it was a mere consequence of his mistake and I told him that. I don’t think that he had good intentions for calling me – since he is seeing his life being destroyed I get the feeling that he wanted to kick the tires at my place and make sure that my W was not getting off easy – even if he had to give me ‘his version’ to make things worse. When my W realized that it was him on the phone she kept telling me to hang up, she kept saying that I didn’t need to talk to him and to tell him never to call us again, and never to bother us again.

When the call ended I was shaking uncontrollably, literally in shock. My W took me in her arms, hugged me, and kissed me. She told me that she was so sorry about this, that she had no idea that he would ever call us again. We hugged for a while, she comforted me, and I felt better – emotionally drained but better. Actually this call ended up being a turning point in the day – afterwards I felt much more affectionate towards my W, we were closer, almost as if we had just been a ‘team’ and fought together against an external force.

Then later that day we went to our first counseling session…

The first session went well. The MC really didn’t spend a lot of time talking about the A (just a few questions to clarify the timeframes and current status), he focused on our relationship in the months and years leading to the A, and our relationship in this post-A period. He got us to talk about our unmet ENs at the time and how they made us feel. A few times my W got emotional but overall it went well. He gave us a couple of articles to review. It seems that his ‘philosophy’ about this revolves around the concepts of ‘distancer/pursuer’ – at least that was the topic of the article he gave us. I read the article but I don’t really understand the concept yet, I will try to find more Web resources maybe. On Thursday he will meet with my W one on one, then he will meet one on one with me on Saturday. The following week we will be back in counseling together. Overall my W and I felt that it could help, I still don’t know if it will make a difference or not, and if he is the right person to help us out. I guess that time will tell.

Have any of you been exposed to those concepts of ‘pursuer/distancer’. Any thoughts?

I have no concept of pursuer/distancer but I wanted to make a comment here.

You asked why your wife chose to make that first step I believe earlier.

Well, in my first marriage, I was the WW. For me, and I can only speak for me- my needs were unmet for so long they were basically screaming. So, when someone came along that was willing to meet those needs- I was hooked. It was like a high. In turn, I felt the only way to keep up the steady flow of getting my "fix" was to have sex with this person. For me, it wasn't sex but yet I knew if I didn't have sex with the OM, he wasn't likely to stay around and meet my needs for very long. Totally wrong all the way around but without a doubt if my needs were being met within the marriage I would have been less likely to fall to temptation.

Wow, that's a lot to go through. I can't imagine talking to OM, I would be too angry. Seems like you're handling it well though. Keep up with the MC/IC.

Have you asked your W why she wanted to to hang up? I tried to contact OMGF at one point and her reaction clearly told me that the OM was pressuring her to avoid any contact with me. I got the clear impression that the story he told her about the A differed greatly from the story I got from my FWW, and there's no question who I'm inclined to believe more.



Seems like your FWW is firmly on board with recovering with you. I help but contrast it to my situation, which seems more and more depressing whenever I compare it to encouraging situations like yours. I think the recovery of your M is going to go very well.

I didn't really have to ask. She saw the effect that the conversation was having on me and the pain it was causing me. She also knew that his intentions in calling me could not be good; she wanted him to leave us alone. Indeed why would he call now? He's seeing his life fall apart and he is angry. Angry at my W for having told me about the A and angry at me for having told his W. He sprinkled some apologies in there for the form but that was not the purpose of his call.

I am still shaken by this call. Last night I had a nightmare in which my W called him because she missed him. In the nightmare she had this funny smile on her face when she would talk about him and I knew that the A wasn't really over, at least not the emotional part of it. In the nightmare I was very angry and threw some salt in her face (don't ask me what a salt shaker was doing in the nightmare...). I woke up around 5:00AM, shaken by this nightmare. I told my W about it. She held me in her arms and told me that everything would work out. It did take me a while to calm down afterwards but she was there for me.



Thanks I really appreciate comments like these. I do indeed feel that, given the circumstances, my W's behavior and attitude is ideal. She is going to counseling with me and seems to think that it will help us. She is very affectionate and seems genuinely committed to our recovery. She tells me that she had has faith in us and that we still have a beautiful life to live together. I find that we are doing a good job at motivating each other and supporting each other, specifically when one's morale is down. Yesterday she was even saying that things are going better between us now than they have in a long time. In a strange way, I think that this crisis has forced us to refocus on each other, express our love for each other, and obviously what better testimony of our commitment to each other than trying to work things out and survive the A together. Another thing made me happy this weekend. She told me that she wanted to come along on one of my next business trips to Europe. It’s the first time that she proposes something like this in my years of traveling. I am really excited and I hope that we can make it happen. We love our kids but we also do have to spend some quality time with each other – that would be a great opportunity to do so.

I do feel that we still have a long way to go but I am also hopeful. We have quite a challenge in front of us. Let alone getting over the A, understanding and addressing the issues that we were facing before the A will not be easy but we have to succeed. We also need to establish new dynamics in our couple, probably based on improvements in communication, so that we can better adapt over time, as our needs change. I still feel overwhelmed when I think about all this and I have to learn to be patient. Hopefully we are going about this the right way and we can be a recovery success story. I pray every day that God can bless our marriage, give us the strength, discipline, patience, and love to rebuild our marriage and make it stronger than ever. I hope that my prayers will be heard. We need all the help we can get.