I understand what you are saying. I think that if our needs are not being met it is our duty to communicate them to our spouse in a way that is meaningful to them, and ensure that they get the message - even if it requires us to try different strategies over time. The worst thing we can do is betray them by seeking to have those ENs fulfilled by someone else. We can also look at the ENs of our spouse, do we know what they are? Are those met to their satisfaction? Is it possible that their unmet ENs are making it difficult, or impossible, for them to meet our ENs? I think that if we are successful in communicating our ENs, and successful in understanding and meeting the ENs of the spouse, then we can have a good marriage - provided that we understand that this is a continuous process and one can never rest on their laurels - as needs change and evolve as we, ourselves, change and evolve.

This is where I think that my W and I failed. She tried to communicate her unmet ENs but not in a way that was meaningful to me, not in a way that ensured that I got the message loud and clear - and sure enough I didn't get it. Likewise my unmet ENs were such that it made it very difficult for me to be the H that she wanted. In a way we were both very selfish - focusing on our OWN unmet ENs. When I think about it the only difference between us is the fact that she had the A, but maybe I was as likely as she was to have one myself. We needed to tango and we were just line dancing (probably not even to the same beat)... We need to learn to tango now.

Yes, I totally agree. I tried to communicate those needs- clearly, loudly- asked for counseling, filled out the EN's questionaires- which he threw away. I still shouldn't have had an affair, but I certainly began to feel that he just wasn't listening to me. Listen, when you tell your spouse- "Start spending more time at home and invest in this marriage or I will either leave you or end up having an affair" I think you're pretty clear. That was my last ditch effort to shock him into action.

I also asked him what his needs were that I wasn't meeting or how could I go about being a better wife. I asked him to fill out EN questionaires- and his got thrown away as well.

Another tough day for me yesterday. I focused all day on the timeframe of the A. My W originally told me that the ‘fooling around’ had lasted 1 to 2 weeks prior to the week of sex they had. When we were at the counselor she said that the ‘fooling around’ lasted a ‘few’ weeks. When I asked her again she said that she doesn’t recall saying ‘1 to 2’ weeks, that it apparently lasted a ‘few’ weeks, less than a month, but she doesn’t know exactly when it started. Yesterday I was thinking about that all day, wanting to ask her again when this whole thing started. I added a few questions to my ‘log’ and then I called her. I asked her what format she would feel comfortable with for me to ask those questions – I suggested a scheduled sit-down, or an email, or whatever else she would feel most comfortable with. She just told me “I don’t know”, she simply doesn’t want to have to talk about this and I know that it’s going to cause some stress if I bring up those questions. I feel stuck.

On my way home last night I spoke to my best friend about this. He is worried about me and concerned that I am perseverating so much on those details – he is telling me that I am going to make myself sick, that I am my ‘worst enemy’. We kind of agreed that I should wait for my one-on-one counseling session this coming Saturday and bring this up with the counselor. I was so stressed out and wired about all this. I then remembered the suggestion from someone on MB who told me that in his most difficult times he tries to do something nice for his FWW. I followed that advice and bought my W some flowers to ‘celebrate the first day of spring’. When I got home my W could see that I was not ‘well’. The rest of the evening she tried to comfort me, she would come next to me, put her head on my shoulder and try to be very nice to me. She told me that she loved me and that I wouldn’t be disappointed again if I chose to spend the rest of my life with her. Little by little my level of stress went down and I was able to avoid the topic of the A all night – I didn’t ask any of the questions.

This morning I am still haunted by the same questions. It takes so much out of me to have to sit on those questions and I don’t even know when I will be able to ask them. My W keeps suggesting that I bring the questions with us at the next counseling session. I think that it might be her way of either delaying my asking them or maybe she hopes that the counselor will just tell me that those questions don’t help anything – and like that she would have an ally, another person to try to convince me that my questions serve no purpose. I just don’t know what to do. Should I force the issue of these questions and really try to find a place and time where I can ask them, or should I just sit on them indefinitely?

asterix, I believe that those types of questions are haunting you because you badly want to feel that you can trust your W again, so any, ANY, suggestion that she's not being *absolutely* truthful with you about the A is going to get you into that frame of mind. At this point you can push for more details about the A again, or you can understand *why* you are pushing for more details and act accordingly.

I took the former approach and it's not working out well for me.

Here's what WH had to say in SAA about discussing the A during recovery:

"Instead of focusing their attention on the mistakes of the past, I encourage couples to focus on the present and future. They should NOT dwell on the affair but focus on rebuilding their marriage. Every time the affair is mentioned, love units are withdrawn from both Love Banks. So the less time spent talking about the affair, the better. The couple is already painfully aware of the mistakes they made and there's no value in being reminded of what they already know.

The goal of marital recovery is to deposit enough love units for the Love Banks of both spouses to overflow. The reconciled couple must learn how to build a new lifestyle that deposits those love units and avoids their withdrawal."

ManInMotion – yes, I know that you are right but it is so incredibly difficult for me to avoid pushing for more details. I really struggle on a daily basis, my ‘question log’ is growing and it is a personal battle to avoid the topic when I speak with my W.

Asking questions is maybe a way for me to get control back, over a period of my life when I was being betrayed and lied to. Right now, as before, she is making the decisions about what to tell me and what not to tell me. She has all the pieces of the puzzle and will only give those that she thinks are relevant. It is her decision that I have ‘enough of the picture’ and that the additional pieces will not add to my understanding. Asking for more details is also maybe a way to prevent anything else from surfacing again down the road and make me feel powerless and stupid again. Some of the changes I see in my W’s story (e.g. ‘from 1 to 2 weeks’ to ‘a few weeks – less than a month’) are also reinforcing my need to obsess about those details – as if there was more to discover, more lies to uncover, more to the story.

I will keep trying though but I am really obsessing about this. This morning I wrote her a long email about all this and my need to know more. I even included a copy of my question log. After reading your post I decided not to send it. Maybe I should just talk to the counselor about this – I just don’t know what to do.

Asterix, that all sounds VERY familiar. If you talk to my FWW now, you'd find out that all of my "grilling" her for details of the A was probably love-busting activity in the extreme. Not only was she reminded of her shameful activity, but she also felt that I was on the search for the one final detail to convince myself that our M was not saving. This is not the kind of activity that you want to do during recovery of your M.

I suggest talking to the counselor instead. We unfortunately do not have that option, and there's no-one else that I can turn to. And talking to my FWW is sometimes a bit like walking through a minefield <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />.

I feel exactly the same. It is not about trust at all. I think it will start getting better at some point when it faints in our memory or when life will prove that is not so important. If you think about it - we already know that we were betrayed. Luckily our WS feel bad for whatever reason. All little details should not make a difference. Our mind (which is so similar) could not agree with the fact that we were not in control of OUR(THEIR?) lives <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />. I think it is really our problem I just don't know what to do. I should post my story separately.

Ok I have the feeling that I really F’up today. I called my W before lunch. I was feeling terrible, pacing back and forth in my office, unable to concentrate. I had written a long email for her then deleted it. I really needed to talk to someone and decided to call her at work. At first I basically talked about my state of mind, my anxieties, and everything else – then I caved in and started asking her questions about the timeframe of the A. She just couldn’t give me a clear answer as to when it started. She could just tell me
‘some time in May’. I was asking first half of the month or second half of the month? She couldn’t say. I was trying to remember events from that month and asking her if things were already going on at those times and once again she couldn’t say. At one point she got fed up and just told me to assume May 1st if I wanted like that it would cover the whole month. Bottom line we were not getting anywhere and then she had to go. After that chat I just had to get out of the office, I took my car, got some fast food, and drove around for 30 minutes, just to clear my head.

A couple of hours after I got back I wanted to call her again. She picked up. I tried to rationalize why I was asking to questions and why they were meaningful to me. I told her that I was obsessing about the changes in her story. On D-Day she told that she had an affair and that it lasted ‘a couple of days’, then a few days later she told me that they had their first kiss ‘1 to 2 weeks earlier’ and came to find out that they slept together ‘3 days in a row’ + the morning of the fourth day if I want to be technical. Then during the counseling session she told the counselor that the affair had been going on ‘a few weeks’ before the sex happened. She is now telling me that she doesn’t even know when it started exactly and can just give me the month….This drives me absolutely crazy!!! Her rationale for all this is that on D-Day she told me the ‘worst part’, i.e. the sex. Then she says that she never remembered saying ‘1 to 2 weeks’, that she had always said ‘a few weeks’ – believe me I DO REMEMBER WHAT SHE SAID – I WILL ALWAYS REMEMBER IT. And now this inability to tell me exactly when it started just drives me up the walls. From there it escalated, as you can tell I was pretty wired at that point. I said things like ‘how come you can’t remember when you betrayed me and jeopardized your marriage’, ‘how come you can’t remember when you cheated on me’, ‘why didn’t you want to tell me about the whole affair on D-Day and decided to minimize the duration to the ‘worst part’’, it went on and on and on. She was starting to get really upset and kept telling me that I should prepare my list of questions and that we should only discuss it in front of the counselor, that maybe he could facilitate the questioning and make sure that I get an answer that satisfies me. She kept telling me that I wasn’t listening to her, that her answers never seemed good enough, etc. Then at one point she started crying….I just didn’t know what to do. While crying she would tell me that she felt like s…, asking me why I kept bringing this stuff up if I was so committed to our recovery, asking to decide ‘what I really wanted to know’ because she couldn’t go on like this and be questioned all the time, that she didn’t have the energy to go through her day after sessions like these, etc. Man, it was bad----then I had to go.

Now I feel like s…, I just don’t know what to do, I am simply lost. Maybe I should just be on meds.

asterix - what you are doing is NOT healthy and you are seriously jeapordizing your chances of recovery. Cut it out. Put yourself in your W's shoes for a moment. No matter how inconceivable it might be to you - just imagine you did something shameful. Now imagine your W probing over and over and over again.

What you are doing is destructive. Your wife is being very reasonable to offer to answer the questions in MC.

Apologize to her.

intention - it is really easier to say then to do. Reading different posts here I realize that there are very few people like asterix (including me). I don't know too how to deal with that. I am going to IC for a three month now but can't say that it added much to what I already knew about myself. I was always very possessive - I was jealous of my dog when he loved our friend. My husband is a psychiatrist and he understands what happens in my head. He already gave me so many details of the A that I would die if person I was intimate with said to anyone. Still I have more questions about what was said and what was done every minute they were together. It seems that it is never enough. My doctor is not in favor of behavior therapy but I think may be that would help. I was also thinking about medication but I don't know what do I need - antidepressant or antianxiety - I feel both. My doctor mentioned antipsychotic meds - I will ask him again tomorrow. I wish I could just turn the switch off. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
asterix - hang on, you are not alone. I know we will make it - it just takes so-o long. I am afraid that it will hurt my M and my love(?) to my H and his love(?) to me.

Yes you’re right, it’s not healthy. Believe me I am not proud for behaving like this, nor do I think that it’s ok. I followed your advice and called her to apologize; she was happy to hear from me and told me she loved me. She told me that she was not afraid of the ‘questions’ but of the ‘questioning’. Basically she is worried that what she will say will set me off, that her answers will trigger another 100 sub-questions, she feels the anger in my voice and in my body-language, and she is basically not comfortable when we talk about it. She brings back the angry outburst (see post #2942364) and the times it told her not to come back home (see post #2958361) – she is afraid that something she would say could trigger the same reactions. She told me that as soon as I told her about my list of questions she got worried as she felt that she would be questioned again. She told me that she was even having some second thoughts about our trip to Europe (see post #2969692) because she may be cornered with some questions there and it may end up being like our last trip with the kids (see post #2950071). Bottom line I will ‘try’ to stick to the plan of bringing those questions to the MC. Obviously the fact of asking questions is really loaded right now and associated with a lot of trauma – keeping a lid on it for a while longer is probably a very good idea.

What worries me is that she is already having a very hard time with the questions now. I hear that recovery takes months, sometimes years, and that the BS often has relapses during that period, times where they pick at the details of the A again. I wonder if my W will have the patience and stamina to support me through this.

I also need to have a sounding board, someone I can blow off some steam with. This site has been great but doesn’t replace interacting with someone. The key is that I should avoid calling my W when I am in a certain state of mind, it only leads to stress and aggravation. Maybe I will dump on my best friend…

You did not do that yet? My cell phone bills were $300 for two month after DDay - I spent so much time with my friend who stopped me from leaving. I also have a male friend at work who just says 'Poor girl' to me and explains to me the theory about testosterone. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Also, every time your W gives you more details about the A tell her how MUCH you appreciate it and how this will speed the process. Tell her that if you don't know EVERYTHING you will imagine the best/worst Hollywood romance made ever <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. Tell her if she withholds any info that makes you feel that it is sacred to her. I am sorry for saying 'tell' all the time. That's what I do but you may feel different.

maril - yes, easier said than done, I know, trust me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I am not suggesting it is easy. In fact I will submit this is the hardest thing you or asterix or I have ever had to do.

asterix - I don't mean to be harsh with you. Think of it as tough love. Good for you for calling to apologize. And dump here, often. We are here for you. Dump on us, not your W <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


No need to try, simply choose to follow through with your decision not to ask questions in a manner that is LB with your W. Give her permission to let you know when you are going against whatever POJA you set up with her. She becomes your ally. Empower her to help you through this.

Thanks again for your recommendations. Last evening I was expecting the worse as she had been crying in the afternoon. But she came home from work and she was nice. She invited me to come and sit next to her on the couch, she invited me to come play with the kids, and she would touch me, be gentle with me. As for me I have to admit that I was distant, not too interested in ‘cuddling’ and actually felt like isolating myself (that may be the distancer/pursuer dynamic that my MC was referring to). When it came time to go to bed I was still pretty ‘wired’ – everything, including the kids, was stressing me out. She was once again very nice with me, she held me, caressed me, and tried her best to calm me down.

I have to admit that her behavior really surprised me. After some of the tough conversations that we had in the afternoon I would have expected her to be distant and detached, emotionally and physically drained, without any energy to give me any attention. But that wasn’t the case. I am sure that she was exhausted but she is really trying very hard to make me happy and help me through this. It must not be easy. I have the feeling that I am basically turning into a nut case and it must be very difficult to live with me right now. Once again, I think that (given the circumstances) I really couldn’t ask for better support from her. I think that I have to keep repeating this to myself and still count my blessings in this very dark phase of my life.

I still feel that I am my worst enemy in all this. I have little control over my feelings and emotions and they have a huge effect on my moods, body language, and behavior. I realize that through my questions or my way of asking them I am trying to punish her. That’s not going to help us.

This evening she has her one-on-one session with the MC. On Saturday it’s my turn.

I think your wife probably feels your continued questioning is meant to somehow catch her in a lie or something. While she has answered your questions, it makes her feel shameful to do so, and she's probably afraid she'll make a mistake and not say something originally exactly the same way as she said it before and then you won't believe her.

She's a keeper, and while yes she did cheat, I believe she's doing her best to make this situation work. I'm concerned that you're going to drive her away with your repeated badgering.

She needs to feel safe in order to answer your questions. She can't if it's going to cause this kind of situation every time.

I know you're in pain and you want to lash out and punish her but this will not help you recover.

Keep venting here, stay busy and also find a friend IRL you can lean on.

My questioning must indeed feel a lot more like a witness cross-examination than a friendly chat. Often it will turn into:
Me: “How long did the A last?”
Her: “I already told you a few weeks”
Me: “A few weeks? You originally said 1 to 2 weeks”
Her: “I don’t recall saying 1 to 2 weeks, I always said a few weeks”
Me: “No you didn’t, I remember exactly what you said”
Me: “So, why would you say 1 to 2 weeks if it was more?”
Her: <No Answer>
Me: “So, what’s a few weeks? 2, 3, 4 – more than a month?”
Her: “It started some time in May”
Me: “When in May?”
Her: “I don’t know when”
Me: “First half of the month or second half of the month?”
Her: “I don’t know”
Me: “How come you don’t know, don’t you remember when something this significant happened?”
<You get the idea…>

I don’t know if I am at the risk of ‘driving her away’ as she understands that this is part of the process. But I am definitely at the risk of delaying the recovery and making the recovery process a lot more difficult that it could be.

This morning I updated my question log and I will discuss this topic with the MC. Including the MC in this may make her feel more comfortable and get me the answers I am looking for, i.e. Win-Win.

Why would you ask her something though that she has already answered several times???

I think it would be a good idea to keep a journal about what you're asking and when so that you can see how often you're asking and such- if you're already not doing that.

Asterix,

I would strongly recommend that you go to a Doc, and get something like Welbutrin (sp?) which is an anti-anxiety drug. You need it. You are missing some very important points and it may cost you the marriage.

First point, no matter what you do or don't find out, that period of your marriage and your W's decisions won't change.

Second point, the time you are focusing on your questioning, is time NOT spend on rebuilding and worse not checking to see if things are on the up and up NOW. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Third point, if you are not checking now, if you are not working on recovery you will miss the window of opportunity for rebuilding your marriage. You feel your W OWES you something. She doesn't! She can divorce you now, later, or whenever. This is NOT strickly your call and you had better realize this soon. She has already had an affair suggesting that your marriage was NOT all that strong then. Your approach to rebuilding thus far is NOT strenghtening your marriage now.

YOU have a decision to make. Either you want OUT, or you want to stay in the marriage. Your call totally. Make the call and then act. IF you want out, you don't need to ask any more questions. If you want in the only questions you need to be asking NOW are how can I make the marriage better.

Son, it is THAT simple. Now there is something you should know NOW. There is a huge difference between simple and easy and you had better understand the difference.

You cannot expect to punish your W back into loving you or remaining in the marriage. THat is HER call are you providing good reasons for her to want to stay? I don't think so.

Your anxiety about not knowing the truth guarentees, that you will miss the truth when it is presented to you. The truth comes in many little things, words, deeds, decisions, etc. If your focus in on the NEXT question, you will miss the truth. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Shut down the questioning, and start watching, listening, and being aware of what is going on around you. Your gut will let you know the TRUTH in due time, IF you will calm down and pay attention.

Oh! What will you learn if she could answer all of your questions with great precision? That she lied? You know that. That she had sexual relations with another man? You know that. That she felt he was better or worse in bed? You DON'T need to know that. That she does not want to go back to that time and place? You know that. That she would prefer to forget, and not recall the gruesome details? You know she does not want to.

Could she be lying to you now? Well, if she is her actions will NOT match her deeds in the future. If she is not, your questions offer no information either.

Go see the Doc. You need some short term help.

God Bless,

JL

JL - are you are a sage. This helps my own situation so much.

Asterix - listen to this wise advice.

me - listen to this wise advice.

JL – quite a bit of information – thank you for taking the time to contribute – I appreciate it. I like your ‘tough love’ approach, it is probably what I need right now. I need to stop feeling sorry for myself and channel my anger/frustration/resentment into something that is more constructive. There has been enough destruction before the A and after the A.

You make very valid points – I realize that. I don’t know if I need medication or not, nor do I know what I can expect from being under medication. What will it do for me?. Will I feel like a zombie? Will it just numb my senses? Is that really advisable at this stage? I can ask the MC on Saturday and see what he thinks about that.

The questioning and the focus on past events clearly take energy away from ‘rebuilding’ the M. It drains me and it drains her and it drives us apart. Yesterday afternoon I asked myself the question “Should we stay together or should we separate?”. I listed the pros and cons of each situation on a piece of paper. From my point of view I clearly saw that there was a lot more in it for ‘me’ by staying with her, the only cons being ‘risks’ (e.g. she will betray me again, in the end the M will not work out, etc.). On the other hand most of the pros were ‘facts’ (e.g. it will give us a chance to rebuild, it will be less devastating to the kids and our families, we can limit the devastation of this A, etc.). So all in all I feel confident with my decision to ‘stay’. But I have to confess that I am starting to wonder if I still ‘really love her’. That’s a whole other story, maybe for another post…

So bottom line I get your message: get some meds, stop the questions, don’t try to punish her, she doesn’t owe me anything, focus on rebuilding. What is she supposed to do?