Asterix:

1 - what percentage of events in this universe have a logical explanation?

2 - what percentage of the above events can your finite and fallable mind grasp the meaning of?

Multiply 1 by 2 and you will have a percentage less than 100.

Is it possible that the A falls into the unknown portion? Is it your pride that is driving you because you think that it MUST be understood?

Time and time again, people are encouraging you to spend your energy on rebuilding instead of dragging your wife through the mud of her past mistakes. Or they are offering ways to satisfy your desire to know that are not threatening to your W.

Yet you choose to disregard the advice and continue along a path that has the potential to destroy what remains of your M. Listen to coachswife - make a decision that you will stop trying to understand and start trying to forgive.

asterix,
I hope we all can help you.

Before my H affair I think I was vulnerable also. It just did not happen.

Reasons:
boredom
depression
anxiety after 9/11
feeling that life is not exciting any more
being tired all the time with the baby
thought that I am obsessed with the baby but my H is not because he was excited about his hobby and I did not have one
tension in our relationship after 16 years of marriage

I could easy see myself falling into the trap because the feeling of the excitement over the flirting is too tempting. But I had enough of dating experience and I know too well that then I would wake up one morning embarrassed even to think that I allowed OM to touch me, terrified that I ruined everything and regretting and scared to death that my H will not respect me anymore.
My H did not date that much before we got married and he admitted that he did not have girls pursuing him when he was young. That's exactly what OW did - called him herself and told him she likes him (he just became a physician - what a coincidence)

This is my view. I think any information will help you.

I want to make it clear that I haven’t disregarded the advice. In fact I am very thankful for the advice and I am doing my very best to follow this advice (although some of the advice I have received is conflicting). However, as you know, it’s not an easy road and I have already encountered many set-backs and relapses. I am sorry to report that I am still struggling with some of the same issues that I brought up weeks ago but that’s where I honestly am. I am also worried that the path I am on, and most importantly the lack of progress I am making, is causing even more destruction in my M. At the very least I know that it is hurting my W. I pray that I will be able to avoid questioning her and concentrate instead on more positive and constructive matters. Please be patient with me.

Yes, the same is true for me. I was not happy in my M either – I basically had a lot of resentment, frustration, and anger towards my W for a number of reasons. I took my W for granted and I didn’t nurture the M. You can imagine the amount of LBs that those feelings generated. We were distant, emotionally disconnected, and our ‘friendship’ has taken some serious hits. We were basically two roommates living in the same house – at least that’s how I seem to remember it. That also made me vulnerable to an A and sometimes I think that the only reason I didn’t have one is because I didn’t have a serious opportunity. Now, in reality, would I have cheated on her if the opportunity had presented itself? I don’t know (and I hope I wouldn’t have) but I know that the context was an enabler at that time. The surprise is that my W had the A, at the time I thought that she would never allow herself to go there. To tell you the truth, I didn’t think that she had the ‘sexual drive’ to have an A, I was dead wrong.

As I said before, if anything, this A is a loud wake-up call, sending us the clear message that the M can no longer be neglected or it will completely collapse. The days of taking the M and each other for granted are over; the days of innocence (or maybe I should say ‘wishful thinking’) are over as well. I know that if we both do this well we can probably be happier and closer than we have been in years. But I also know that it is going to be a long and difficult journey for us and I still have some ambivalent feelings about committing to it – probably because I am uncertain about the outcome and I am very afraid of getting hurt again along the way.

I think you may be on to something when you said obsessive disorder.

I think you're the type of person who is used to thinking very logically or methodically and basically the A doesn't fit into any of these boxes. But yet you continually want to make it.

Can I be completely frank with you? I say this in all honesty- and I might get slammed by my comments from some BS's here on the board. Fear of just such a reaction as yours from my first husband is one reason why I didn' t try to mend the marriage. I thought it would be too painful to try and make ammends- to gain forgiveness- and that I would never hear the end of it. My reaction was to try and run from the blame and the hurt and the questions- and I have to give your wife all the more credit for sticking around and facing what I wasn't able to do.

I had remorse about it later but in looking back I knew that everytime it came up I would want to run- far far away- and I can only imagine that it may be like that from your wife.

A loving reaction and forgiveness is more apt to get her to want to mend the marriage- it's obvious that she wants to.

Have you began to tell her how you felt your needs weren't being met before and that you might have cheated had you the chance?? To me, that would admit to her that you are not perfect and have had some of the same feelings that she had. That's radical honesty too.

Lastly, you said your wife didn't appear sexual enough to have an affair. It doesn't have to be about sex- I know my A wasn't.

Hi asterix. I made a similar comment before. Can't remember that you responded, maybe I'll try again in hopes you won't find it offensive.

IF you want to get your mind off of her errors, think of your own. I mean your errors outside of the context of her A. Have you ever yelled at her? Belittled her? Invalidate her feelings? Make her feel insignificant? Lied/withheld information? etc?

We're all God's creatures, and we are all flawed. If you can focus on making right your own errors it will help you to make room for errors of others, including your own WW.

What say you?

Well I am not a shrink and I am not even sure that what I am going through follows the textbook definition of ‘obsessive disorder’. I guess that it would be easier for everyone (including my W) to place such a label on my emotions – maybe even hoping that the right pill can get rid of them. Never feels good when someone tells you that you are "crazy" to feel the way you do.
I won’t judge you for not trying to work things out with your H – I don’t know your situation – maybe your M was no longer worth that kind of fight. Why did you even tell him that you had an A? Why did you drop that bomb on him and then abandon him? Wouldn’t it have been better to just leave him without telling me that you had betrayed him too? Just wondering…
I am glad that my W is by my side, has admitted to the A, and is saying that she loves me and wants to be with me. We are going through a rough time right now but I think that it is to be expected given the circumstances. What kind of reaction should a WS expect when they tell their BS that they have cheated? Does anyone expect ‘That’s ok, Honey, I love you, let’s not worry about this – give me a week and I am sure that we can move on without having to ever bring this up again…”.
Yes I have done that. I even said it in front of the MC. I am trying to be an open book as well.
Yes I have learned that now.
Soon after my W told me about her A, I confessed to her that I had frequently visited porn sites on the Internet - that's exactly why I did that - to show her that I am also flawed but that in the spirit of radical honesty I can also tell my most embarrassing secrets. This being said I don't think that the fact of knowing that we are both 'sinners' helps much in this case.

asterix,
you are not alone. I am also 'crazy' one. As I already said my DDay was 3 month before yours. I went through all the emotions you are describing. It WILL get BETTER!!!! Tell your wife that it just takes longer for you.

Just remember when you will be OK post something for all of us - I can't wait to see it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I wish my English would be better I realize that I sound like a high school drop out. Can't write even a fraction of all my thoughts <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Maril - believe me I can't wait to get there. I sincerely hope that I will be one of the lucky ones who can claim a successful reconciliation with their spouse. Thank you again for your continued support.

I'm not saying you're crazy Asterix- it's just that I know when you're under anxiety it's easy to get obsessive about things. I've been the same way in the past in my guilt over my affair.

In my own personal situation my therapist told me not to disclose the A- due to PTSD (post traumatic stress disorder) and various other things I'd experienced as a child. I can see that in hindsight that wasn't the right thing to do, but I was sick at the time and hospitalized and it seemed like I should listen to the therapist. So, I never told. Then, after I left him- not for the other man- he found out. I made a mistake and I didn't feel that he would forgive me or that I could stand to work through it with him. In my past as a child in an abusive home- when I say abusive- I mean everything you can experience- sexual, emotional, physical- I learned to protect myself by running from pain. Which is much of what I did at that time. Not proud of it, but that's the facts- and I'm here to try to help others to make sure that something good comes from what happened in my past.

I'm certainly not suggesting that you forget the affair- or that after one day you say "I'm sorry honey, I love you let's forget this and never mention it" I don't believe that I came across that way at all.

I'm saying- she's showing up- she's trying- she's answered question after question- she's reacted in ways that many WS here only dream their spouse would do.

I'm afraid that of two things here-
1. You won't be able to move on from this.
2. Or you will force your wife to push you away from the constant backlash from the affair.

Obviously others agree with me a little bit here so there may be something to what I'm saying??

Last night we had our fifth MC session. It was a good one. We spent the bulk of the time talking about the ‘questions about the A’. The MC nicely facilitated that discussion by having my W and I express our feelings and emotions about that difficult topic.
I am now convinced that I need to stop asking questions about the A. It is okay to share my feelings and emotions about the A, my hurt, anger, frustrations, and everything else but there is no value in continuing to ‘grill’ her on the actual events. Our next MC session in on 4/18 - I see it as a personal challenge to avoid any questions about the A between now and then. It would be such a victory for me to reach that date without falling back in the vicious circle of questioning her.

That's a wonderful update Asterix. Glad to hear you guys are making progress with the MC.

Coachwife – thanks for the encouragement. I know that it won’t be easy though. Just this morning I was reading a post about an EA where an OW was telling the WH that she ‘misses their friendship’ during NC. That was such a trigger for me. When I ask my W if she missed the OM after the PA, she tells me that she didn’t miss the ‘physical’ part of their relationship (she didn’t miss the SF, being in his arms, she actually said that she liked being with him less during that time, etc.) but she keep saying that she missed ‘the friendship and the companionship’ (note that they were friends/co-workers before the EA/PA). After reading the post a bundle of questions came immediately to my mind and I could feel the anxiety building within me. My first reaction was to try to call my W at work – not to ask her questions (at least I hope that I would not have relapsed so quickly) but just to talk about that emotion, to vent, to have someone listen to me. I wasn’t able to talk to her. About 30 minutes later the triggers have faded and I feel calmer. I feel less concerned as to whether the phase post-PA was indeed still an EA or not – I tell myself that it’s in the past and that trying to understand that won’t help me at all, it will just frustrate me and hurt my W. I am glad that I didn’t talk to my W about this when the triggers were still raw, the risk of dumping questions on her would have been too high. I am slowly learning that I need to let those triggers fade before I act on them. The challenge will be to manage those triggers when I am actually ‘with’ her, in the same room, possibly even holding her in my arms. This is going to require a lot of self-control.

On another note I think that maybe I should avoid reading other threads – they can turn into a source of triggers and I really don’t need that right now.

Great! Good for you. We're rooting for you! Other threads can be triggers, but can also be sources of inspiration.

I've notices too that reading other threads triggers some unwanted emotions. I think i should stop too.

Yep sometimes I will read the first few lines and quickly close it. I just don't want more negativity, stories about deception, etc. But it's true that others stories are inspiring as well - sometimes the title can be a good indication of the content - other times we have to be disciplined enough to stop reading if it's negative.

I understand about the reading of other threads- it's a trigger for me too for feelings of guilt as well, even just being the FWW.

I think you did well with this last challenge. Oftentimes if we wait before we freak out about something then we often come to the realization its not as urgent as we think it is.

Personally I think it's normal to miss someones friendship. I miss various same sex friendships I've had over the years. That doesn't mean I want to have sex with them.

Would it interest you to know that I still have limited contact with OM because of business dealings?? But yet that I've never not once had a craving to reindulge our relationship whatsoever?? I have several reasons-
First of all I'm remarried now- and I can fully understand how devastated my husband would be if I ever did that (he was a BH in his former marriage). Also, I don't want to- have no desire- zip zero nada- to go back down that road- because of the pain, the remorse that I felt afterwards, and the hurt I inflicted on his family by my actions (his wife has forgiven us both). I look back on that time with sadness and regret- at the damage that was done to both of us personally, professional, morally etc as well as what was done to both of our families as a result of our poor choices. I know I will never be a WW again, because literally I would rather die than feel like that ever again.

Your wife is far along on her journey having been out of contact with OM to not be in withdrawal. Many FWW's here are still in withdrawal from the affair, and want to contact- thus I'd try and think about that when I read those threads.

Actually my W told me the exact same thing – she would rather die than go through this again. She says that the A was the most difficult and painful time of her life. She has ‘learned her lessons’ and is convinced that she will never cheat again. As you can imagine, I really want to believe that and I hope that she is right.


I know that she is not in ‘withdrawal’ now and she has absolutely no desire to contact him. When I told the OMW about the A, the OM sent my W an angry email – she didn’t open it, deleted it right away, and called me to let me know. She also said that she would tell me if he ever tried to contact her again.

But I “think” that she may have experienced withdrawal immediately after the PA when they each moved to a different state, although it is difficult to know for sure as the end of their PA also coincided with several other factors such as: new job, new house, move, leaving friends and co-workers behind, traveling H, etc.

Bottom line she admits that she was depressed for two or three months after we moved. She keeps telling me that, as far as the OM was concerned, she was just missing the ‘friendship and companionship’ – and she will mention all the other factors as elements of that depression (although she doesn’t know in what proportion they each contributed to what she was feeling). After the move, they would talk to each other on the phone once or twice a week and this for a few months. At one point, out of the blue, the OM apparently told her not to call him anymore and that was the end of it. She mentioned that when she received that email, she just felt ‘stupid’. That was back in 11/2005. They haven’t spoken since.

After the PA, my W says that they never talked about what happened, never even brought it up. It was as if nothing had happened. They would just talk about their work, patients, etc – as they were supposedly doing before the whole A ever started. She did mention once that after the PA she had ‘feelings’ for him but that they faded quickly. I don’t know what kind of “feelings” – if she was still just talking about ‘friendship’ or something more.

The emotional journey that she went through is difficult for me to understand. She will say that she never “loved” him, that she never thought about leaving me, or never wanted him to leave his W; just that they were good friends and that she liked to spend time with him. She also said that her feelings for him would run “hot and cold” whatever that means.

She apparently didn’t initiate the A (i.e. didn’t make the first move) but she completely accepts her responsibility in it and doesn’t blame it for any of it. She still cannot explain “why” it happened or “why” she went along with it – other maybe than saying that she was “tempted” and couldn’t resist it. I guess that for me I would like to understand the level of emotional involvement that she had with this guy but it’s a really difficult nut to crack and at this point I don’t know if I will ever really be able to put my arms around it. Also with this agreement that I shouldn't ask questions about the events themselves, I don't know if this is even a subject that I should approach. Any ideas?

Have you asked her what she thinks attributed to her feeling that her needs weren't being met?? Or what she was feeling about your marriage at the time of the A??

This is more relational than drilling with questions.

I think perhaps she might have alot of insight into why she did what she did or is perhaps starting to, however it may be that she doesn't feel safe sharing that with you? Or it could be that actually there weren't any feelings and that she didn't really care that much for him.

I think that all of that might come with time. I think it will take her some time to come to terms with everything- I'm a good bit further than she is and it took me a long time to come to terms with it all, what exactly I thought made me do it, etc.

Is she doing individual counseling?? I think that would be a great idea.

Yes I did. She tells me that she felt lonely, she felt that I wasn’t interested in her, that there was no ‘room for her in my head’, she felt that I was consumed by my own worries and my own life. I still remember that one night, we were laying down in bed – I was falling asleep and she woke me up asking me if I still wanted to be married to her. She got very emotional, cried, and told me that she felt lonely. About a year prior to the A, she approached me about some of those feelings again, it was difficult for her to talk about this. She told me that she felt kind of invisible around me, she could come home after a day at work and I wouldn’t really acknowledge her, and I wouldn’t try to ‘connect’ with her even for a few minutes (e.g. giving her a hug, a kiss, ask her how her day went, etc.). She really wasn’t asking for much but apparently I wasn’t able to correct the behavior, or at least not sustain the improvement. I think that she would agree with this description.

I don’t know and I find it difficult (maybe even dangerous) to theorize about her feelings for him. I can only go based on what she has told me so far: I didn’t love him (even though once when I was drilling on this topic she asked me to ‘define’ love), we were good friends, afterwards I missed the friendship and companionship but not the physical aspect of the relationship, I like to be with him less once the A started, this was a horrible period of my life, I still had some feeling for him after the PA but they faded quickly, I was tempted and couldn’t resist, I never thought that my relationship with him would go anywhere, I didn’t want to leave you and I didn’t him to leave his W, I didn’t want this to happen and I didn’t plan for it, there were some pleasurable aspects to our relationship but I was feeling very bad about the whole thing, etc.

No she isn’t. Actually during our last session, the MC advised against it. He said that we needed to learn to talk to each other about our feelings and emotions without necessarily having to include a third party. I think that he really wants to teach us to open up to each other and share how we feel – maybe to become self-sufficient along those lines. That’s what he wants to focus our sessions on.

To me all of this sounds like if you give her your love, attention and respect she will be there for you forever, loving and devoted. My husband also said that he thought that I lost interest in him (more in physical aspect). Which was true because I felt I also tried to talk to him about this without success and I gave up. I think chances were that I would have an A before him but I was obsessed with the baby and was not interested.

I think you really have a chance for a very happy life together. Think about people who live all their lives and never figure it out and never fix it. May be that's the price for happiness? May be it was meant to be. I feel that if I survive this I'll be stronger then ever.


PS: Every time I post - I feel the urge to enroll into the intensive English course <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />.