hey,

I'm a journalist researching an article on infidelity - looking for a few people to share their stories COMPLETE ANONYMITY of course. If any of you want to share, give advice or just mention what happened in their relationships please contact me at umullally@tribune.ie

Thanks

The trip to Europe was tough on me – a lot of time for introspection which unfortunately means a lot of time to think negatively as well. Thoughts about the A and her deception occupied my mind quite a bit, stressed me out, and made me go from desperate to angry. On my way back home I even argued one more time with my W over the phone. I should know better than to start arguing with her when I am jet-lagged, exhausted, and have a bad migraine. Sure enough I took a stroll in the 'affair minefield' and dropped a few questions. It turned out to be another stressful and unproductive discussion. It takes me 15 to 20 minutes to get a straight answer to any of my questions. It seems that she 'dances around the question' and spends more energy explaining why she can't or shouldn't answer the question (e.g. 'it serves no purpose', 'I don't recall', etc.) than actually trying to provide an honest and open answer. At least that's how I perceive those discussions. She picked me up at the airport and we barely spoke on the 30 minutes drive back home. The evening went slightly better after that.

The next day I was off, it gave me an opportunity to spend some quality time with the kids. In the evening I met her at her work so that we could drive together to our fourth MC session afterwards. While she was finishing up some stuff I was on her computer. I found a couple of things that bothered me. First I saw that she had gone to the OM's company web site a few weeks ago and looked him up. She apparently did that after I sent him the email asking for NC (see earlier post). At which time she saw his company domain name for the first time and was apparently curious to see where he worked and what his profile said. I also saw that back in October she had gone to a web site looking for hotel rooms in Las Vegas. That was apparently around the time that they had talked about going to a conference together. In reality probably nothing that was very important or that I should worry about but I felt noxious to my stomach – these ended up being very strong triggers for me and they completely spoiled my mood. After that we drove to the MC, we were early so we ended up talking a little bit – since I was still under the shock of the earlier triggers I brought up the A again.

The MC session went well. I think that I ended up doing most of the talking – that's probably what the MC wanted this time. At this point he is pretty much telling me that my constant questioning is not helping anything and is holding me back in the A. The questioning and the focusing on the A is preventing me from focusing on reconstruction, keeps portraying her as the villain, and is being used as an excuse for not trusting her. He is probably right about those things. Of course we spoke about many other things but I am having a hard time summarizing the key elements of the session. The rest of the evening went well.

So far the weekend is going well. I have kept off the topic of the A but I am not feeling too good. I feel sad and withdrawn. I find it difficult to enjoy my time off.

Asterix you are doing great, and it will get better. There's light ahead, and after that there are many years of happy marriage. Be strong my friend, have faith, and keep your chin up.

Overall not a very good weekend for me, and therefore not a very good weekend for my W either. I was withdrawn, didn’t talk much, and showed very little patience with the kids and everyone else around me. My W was as supportive as she could. She was nice, patient, and fairly affectionate. Yesterday afternoon I spent several hours alone in my bedroom watching some TV. My W came and checked on me a few times, gave me a hug and kept asking me to come back downstairs, which I eventually did. Once bedtime came, we cuddled and we talked a little bit. I told her that I wanted to make her happy and that I had also learned a few lessons from this A. One of those lessons was that I shouldn’t take her for granted. She told me that she loved me. It was a good and warm moment between us.

Then unfortunately I made the mistake of telling her why I had been so depressed all day. I told her that I had been haunted by a few thoughts that day: 1) I was wondering if they had kissed the time we all attended a business reception (the OM was there), which was the weekend before their week of sex, 2) I was wondering what her friend (to whom she had talked about the A) meant when she said “she knew she couldn’t have both of you”, and 3) I was wondering why she had looked up his corporate web site and his profile on line in recent weeks. At first she didn’t say anything, I guess that she didn’t know if I was really asking her those questions or just making a statement about what I had been thinking about all day. Then I turned them into questions. To the first question she answered ‘no’ but she was once again wondering what the significance of that question was since it seemed like a detail considering that the following week she had sex with him (which she obviously admitted). I answered that it was significant to me since I was at the same reception. To the second question she said that she didn’t remember ever saying something like that to her friend. To the third question she said that she was just curious and didn’t elaborate. Then I took it one step further and starting talking about the time I had spoken to the OM’s W. This time I lied to her. I told her that the OM’s W had told me that she had found ‘romantic notes’ between the two of them and I was asking my W if that was true that they had exchanged such notes. She told me ‘I don’t remember ever writing him romantic notes’. I was just fishing, the OM’s W never told me that. In a way I think that I was trying to trap her, verifying the claim that she once made that they never really had a ‘romantic’ relationship. I was playing with fire and the whole discussion really disturbed her and frustrated her. Bottom line here we were again, talking about the A. She said that whatever she does now she will always fail the ‘affair test’, she will always be the one who screwed up. She was also disturbed by the fact that a few moments ago I was telling her that I loved her, that I had learned my lessons, and that I didn’t want to take her for granted anymore – and then now I was grilling her about the A again. She rolled over to her side of the bed and I rolled over to mine, then we felt asleep. This morning she came next to me and we hugged. I apologized for last night. She told me that it was ‘all right’ and she thanked me for apologizing. We held each other for a while and then we got up for work.

Now that I think about it I believe that I brought up the lie about the OM’s W to keep her engaged in the conversation. At that time she was falling asleep and I wanted to continue talking. Maybe I just did this to control the discussion, to interrogate here, to trap her – maybe even to torment her. I don’t really know why I did it. The only thing I know is that once again I didn’t learn anything new and if anything it added tension to what had already been a difficult day. I am hoping that realizing this will eventually convince me to stop this behavior. I am really trying, really hard, but I still relapse.

asterix, just wait. It will get better. You will get tired of this thoughts eventually. I am 5 month away from the DDay and I sometimes feel like asking these questions again but then I know I will not stop after one and I know how bad will it make me feel so I can manage now to distract myself away from it. Someday I am completely happy, someday I am sad but nothing like 4 or 3 month ago. My H said two days ago that 'we are made for each other' which what I felt always. It is better then 'I love you'. Time really heals. Also I realized that when I feel happy I don't think about A or if I do - I think about it with a humor and also that we both will appreciate each other more. But when I am depressed I start thinking about the OW and the A. This is very important for me. I am not depressed because of the A but vise versa. You said that you were taking medications before. I had a minor depression and anxiety before all this happened and then I was worrying about terrorists, pedophiles, tsunamis, etc. Now all that is gone from my head but the A is right there to worry about. I started taking Zoloft and I will see how it is going to work out. Also, please believe her - she probably does not remember the details of the A. But if you keep bringing it up she will have to think about it. Think of any girl you were dating before - do you care about it, do you remember much? It is in your mind more then in her.

Good luck, do something what you enjoy. Something which make you feel better. Force yourself. You need to have positive emotions. Life goes on. (You should see or hear me three month ago <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> - but I am SO much better now. That's why I believe you will be fine. Just be patient) I am so tired to be miserable. I want to be happy and I will be. Funny - I think now I am happier then right before all this happened (except of course when I recall the A). <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

This is an email that I wrote to my W this morning, I think that it correctly reflects my current state of mind:

This is a 2x4 for you, upside the head. As you know, each time you do this you drive a little wedge between you and your FWW. Enough wedges can split a block of granite - actually it doesn't take much force at all - and your marriage is weak right now. I say this in a loving way; You need to stop this.

In one of the Star Wars movies, Yoda says something like 'there is no try there is only do, or do not'. Stop with the trying and switch to doing. You are obviously a man of strength and substance. Weaker men fail, but you can do this. Stop with the wedges already, please.

WeNeedHelp – I keep going back and forth on this topic – one of the reasons is that I get conflicting advice.

On one hand, some people will tell me that “Those questions are a way for you to process what happened”, “Those questions are a way for you to begin to open yourself to your W”, “Those questions and the answer are one of the most important parts of healing that you can have”, “You are far to soon into this to be putting limits on yourself and what you need”, etc. Basically that tells me that my W should bite the bullet and that asking questions is good for me, and eventually good for us. Here I would only have to make the fact of asking questions more comfortable for my W by maybe writing them down first, and finding the right place and right time to discuss them. But bottom line it’s ok to ask questions.

On the other hand, others will tell me that “each time you do this you drive a little wedge between you and your FWW”, “the time you are focusing on your questioning, is time NOT spend on rebuilding and worse not checking to see if things are on the up and up NOW”, “Your approach to rebuilding thus far is NOT strengthening your marriage now”, “the only questions you need to be asking NOW are how can I make the marriage better”, “Shut down the questioning”, etc. I think that this is also what my MC is telling me to do – he sees my questions as a way to keep vilifying my wife, keeping my guard up, and further delaying true recovery. Following this line of thought I should really force myself to stop asking questions about the A.

I still don’t know what’s the RIGHT thing to do at this stage.

Here's another 2X4! I guess one of the things that bothers me is that you lied to her concerning your conversation with OM's W to manipulate her.

I feel deep down that you're trying to catch her in a lie and trying to manipulate her. True, she lied to you in the past covering up with A- but since then the two of you have said you would start over. Part of that starting over is NOT lying. You want honesty of her but yet you lied about that.

I'm thinking that she probably feels like when will it ever be enough for you?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

It's not like you bring this up to her once a week, you do it almost daily. She must feel like she is on trial, and that is no way to mend a marriage.

I am sure this is absolutely correct BUT...
that's the only way you can put things behind. If you would not love her you would not care so much. Some people can't start heal till they tear themself apart. That's why I keep saying 'be patient'. Tell your wife that this will get better. Less secrets she has - less questions will come out. Sure you will keep asking same things again and again which may make her feel like it will never stop. Your panic is not going last forever. I am saying this based on my experience since your reaction is very much like mine. And again think about taking meds. I hope you are going to have a good day.

You’re right, not one of my proudest moments (mea culpa). I don’t know what’s going on with me right now. This probably falls in the same category as the email trap I was planning to send to her (see earlier post). Or maybe I lie and manipulate her as a form of revenge since I was lied to and cheated on. This being said, I should know better – there is nothing to be gained out of more deception – I am just going to cause more destruction. I am just not practicing what I preach (i.e. radical honesty) or maybe only when it suits me. This is a behavior that I MUST stop now.
Yes she does feel on trial. She once told me that she didn’t mind the ‘questions’, but she hated the ‘questioning’. Some of her recurring complaints are that 1) the questions keep bringing her back to a place where she feels ashamed, embarrassed, and mad at herself, 2) I always seem to have an angry/hostile way to ask them, 3) she is always worried how I am going to react when she says something (she still hasn’t forgotten my early angry outburst), 4) she doesn’t feel that I listen to her answers or respect her boundaries/feelings (i.e. what she feels comfortable discussing), 5) my questions seem to focus on ‘details’ that serve no purpose and don’t help us move forward.
Well here we go again, ‘to ask or not ask – that is the question’. I think that I will just have to make up my own mind about what the right approach is. In brief, I know is that what I am doing now is not working – my questioning is building stress, anxiety, frustration, and distance between us. It provides me with little or no information – bottom line it’s not effective. Between keeping this line of questioning and not asking any questions at all, there is a middle ground, the list of questions that is only addressed in front of the counselor. I need to stick to that approach!!!! I think that it will achieve three goals: 1) it will give me the feeling that I can still ask questions if I want to, 2) by preparing a list and knowing that it will be seen by a counselor it will give me a chance to really think about what I want to ask (increase quality), and 3) it will provide a “safer” environment for my W.

I never said for you not to ask questions- I just think they would be better suited to be answered in the format with the counselor.

If you cannot wait until the counseling session perhaps you two could agree on a mid point during the week to discuss if you have additional questions. Say, if counseling is on Friday, can we sit down on Tuesday and discuss???

Your wife is really trying, but I feel that if you push her too hard she may feel that no matter what she does you will never be able to move on.

Have you seriously thought about that?? Do you feel that there is anything she can do to mend the marriage? Do you feel that you will ever move on?? If you make a choice to forgive her, at some point you need to do that.

I just spent close to 45 minutes on the phone with my W talking about a possible plan of action. Basically I want to reach two goals: 1) develop my own understanding of the A by asking questions about it, 2) rebuild our M (care, protection, honesty, time). My W on the other hand wants to only focus on goal #2 (a goal that we share) and see #1 as an unproductive and possibly destructive step. She told me that getting more information about the A will never satisfy me (she says that she tried that), there will always be more questions. She also thinks that all those questions are symptoms of something deeper, a more fundamental issue that I am trying to address (although she doesn’t know what that issue could be). She wonders what my “true” motivation is for asking those questions. At this point she thinks that I am ‘obsessed’ by those questions.

My plan to address goal #1 included: 1) talk to the MC about my possible motivations for all these questions - are they in fact a way for me to rebuild my trust in her? Or are they something else? Maybe I could use the MC to dig up those potentially deeper issues; 2) limit our Q & A to a pure off-line approach, i.e. in writing. I saw this approach as a solution to some of the issues she mentioned with my ‘questioning’ before:
• By writing my Qs, I would avoid the angry/hostile tone that I am apparently using when I ask them verbally;
• Writing down her As would possibly make it easier for her to talk about ‘embarrassing’ topics – furthermore she may be able to better articulate her answers and provide something more “thought-out” (it would beat the usual “I don’t know” that she usually answers when taken on the spot);
• I would be able to go over the As several times if I wanted to, without having to ask her the same Qs over and over again;
• She could answer the Qs when it’s convenient for her, i.e. always the right time and the right place
• It still gives me an outlet for my Qs – I can think about them more, ensure that I really want to know the As

She was very negative about this proposal. Basically she still sees the fact of asking questions about the A as an unhealthy process – one that doesn’t address the deeper issues and one that will never end. She sees those questions as destructive, and creating a further divide between us. She says that she doesn’t mind if I write down my Qs but she should have the right to determine what she will answer. So basically she thanked me for giving this so much thought but she didn’t buy into it. She also didn’t provide a counter-proposal other than saying that we should run this idea by the MC to see what he thinks. If he thinks that it’s a good idea then she will give it a try.

I am very disappointed. I am really trying to put a lot of thought in this and find a middle ground that we can both live with. She will just not commit to answering ALL my questions.

Yes, be an open book - answer all my questions with patience and honesty, regardless of how often I ask them or how embarrassing they may be. Something that she apparently sees as destructive, unproductive, and endless.

Having to fight to get my questions answered is draining my energy and making a difficult process even more tedious than it probably needs to be (I compare it to urban warfare). It is distracting me from goal #2 (see post above) and further delaying reconciliation.

Hmmm. This does not seem reasonable to me. Surely you must have a finite number of questions. If you write them down, and she provides a written answer, then you would never need to have her answer them again.

Every time you have the urge to get the answer, you can simply open your book, read the question - and the answer. I suspect you'd soon tire of that.

So yes, there probably IS an ulterior motive. Could it be to inflict pain and embarrassment and suffering on your W in retaliation for what she has done to you?

Long time lurker...I've been following your thread. I hope you can find a way to ease your pain and find peace with your wife. I only have the barest hint of what you're going through - I've never been a BS, but I've had a few girlfriends cheat on me. What you're feeling must be a few orders of magnitude worse.

If your FWW is in 100% commitment to work this out, she does not get the privilege of deciding which questions she is going to answer, which to give a partial answer for, which to ignore, and so on. Her A was born of lies and deceit, and only when she has proven her trustworthiness can the healing begin for both of you.

However, with that said, I do really think the constant questioning has become counterproductive. I know there's the desire to ask questions and see if the answers change so you can catch her in a lie. There might be the desire to understand every possible aspect of her affair - you seem like an analytical sort so that might be your first instinct (mine too). Or, as Intention suggests, you might simply be using it as a means to flog your FWW about her affair.

Suggest you get on antidepressants if you're not already, and train yourself to stop harmful thought processes before they start. See, I've had depression for the last 20 years. When I'm down, one bad incident or one small setback can set off a whole chain reaction of negative thoughts that just feed on themselves and grow until I'm literally paralyzed. Break the cycle somehow.

Hope this is useful to you.

Another very difficult night. When we got home after work my W was distant, she thought that I was mad about the outcome of our earlier conversation (see post #2981014) and she was obviously uncomfortable coming close to me. As we were watching TV I put my arms around her and she warmed up a bit. We spoke a little bit about our earlier conversation – I told her that I was not angry about the outcome, just disappointed. I told her that I gave it a lot of thought and I felt bad that she would just reject my proposal simply saying that it would not be ‘productive’ and ‘constructive’, without offering an alternative or suggesting improvements. She then spent a good part of the evening watching her favorite show on TV until it was time to put the kids to bed.

When we got to bed, she rolled over to her side and told me “I love you, good night” – ready to go to sleep. I don’t know why but at that point I felt a lot of anxiety building in me. I think that I was frustrated that she would just go to sleep and not even try to talk to me some more. So I engaged her in a conversation and went over my proposal again. Once again I was not getting anywhere, she was sticking to her guns saying that she just couldn’t see how perseverating about the details of the A would help us. She just saw that as an unproductive and destructive process that was probably symptomatic of a deeper issue or motivation of mine. My frustration was really building up at that time, I became angry, and spent some time asking her different questions about her contacts with other former co-workers and so on. I didn’t ask questions about the A, but this time I seemed to be interrogating her about other things, just anything, probably trying to get back at her for the frustration, anger, and pain I was feeling at the time. She ended up sobbing on her side of the bed and I didn’t have it in me to comfort her.

Then the situation flipped, I started feeling so deeply sad and depressed, literally waves of sadness coming onto me. I ended up sobbing for what seemed like forever on my side of the bed, tears running down my cheeks. I told her that I was worried about my job because I couldn’t concentrate at work. I told her that I was worried as to how this whole thing would affect the kids. I told her how insecure I felt. So many negative thoughts, so much pain – I was all over the place. She stayed on her side of the bed, didn’t come close to me to try to comfort me – she was still talking to me but told me that she just didn’t know how to help me. I could also sense frustration in her voice. Around midnight she told me that she really needed to go to sleep. As I rolled to my side of the bed she came next to me, gave me a kiss, and told me “I love you and we don’t have to go about it like this”. Then we both fell asleep.

This morning I feel very sad and depressed – not very hopeful about our chances to get over this. While in the shower I was overcome by a wave of paranoia thinking that maybe she still wanted him – that maybe she was still thinking about it and hadn’t gotten over him yet – then I asked myself why I thought that and I couldn’t come up with anything tangible. I feel very sad today and not so sure that I will be able to get over this whole thing one day.

Tonight we have another MC session. I will probably present my plan at that time (see post #2981014) to see what the MC thinks about it.

My questioning last night (see above) was definitely to punish her and to bother her. But in the majority of cases I am just seeking information, I just have a question and I feel that I need an answer to understand the A better.

I am indeed starting to think that antidepressants are needed. I will bring that up at the MC tonight. I need to be able to concentrate on my work or I fear that I will lose my job. I also need to take the edge off the anxieties and negative thought processes that I am going through because they drain my energy and create more distance with my W. I also check her emails several times a day as well as her cell phone logs – I am so paranoid. And who knows, my W may have a point when she says that I am ‘obsessed’ with the questions about the A.

asterix, the more I read your story the more I feel that your wife is truly embarrassed and that's the only reason she can't talk about the affair.

Try to respect her desire not to give all intimate details. She probably feels that you will never love her again after that.

While asking my husband questions about S with the OW - deep inside I knew that I have no right to do that. He did feel bad telling me about that and I could see it was hard for him to be close to me after that. But my husband has a very strong will and can put things behind him (not only the A but also the shame of telling me these little nasty details). I am not sure that your wife can do that. Please stop. Don't ask her questions about SF!

I watched 'Indecent Proposal' recently. Try it. It gives you different perspective. Also try 'Nora' where James Joyce "is troubled by suspicions that she may be unfaithful to him". Good movie anyway. BTW I've read about British psychiatrist who treats his patients partially by making them watch selected movies. I made my husband watch 'Fatal Attraction' soon after the A ended and I can't describe the effect it had on him.

She's already told you she doesn't want to do this that way but you keep pushing. Now, you're going to ask the MC what he thinks about it. No matter what he thinks what makes you think that you can convince her to do that?? I agree that so much inspection of the A is counterproductive and it definitely seems as if you have a hidden agenda of some sort to me, and I'm not your W. I can't imagine what she must be feeling about the whole thing at this point.

You feel that you might not be able to get over it, but frankly you're not letting yourself start to heal. It's like a scab that you're constantly picking at. The more you pick at it the longer it continues to bleed.

I do not believe that you will ever truly understand the affair. It doesn't make sense. You may understand her motivation and her reasoning and her thought process, but how could you ever understand something that has caused you this much pain and destruction?? I simply believe there is nothing that she could say that would make this okay, because guess what? It's not okay. So, at some point you have to draw a line and say "Either I'm going to make the choice to forgive her and rebuild the marriage or I'm not" because it's never going to be right in your eyes. Because she cannot go back and change the past and undo the damage- which is the only thing that would make it right.

Please talk with your MC about a referral to a prescribing doctor. I truly believe you need some medication to sort this out.

Running the proposal by the MC is her idea. She is the one who told me that if he thinks that it’s a good idea then she will give it a try. I have no idea what my “hidden agenda” could be – or even if there is one. All I know is that I have questions about the A; that those questions boil inside me, until I can get an answer to them. Then I have some more. I don’t know if there is an ulterior motive, I don’t know if there is another motivation for those questions – if there is then I am no aware of them, they must be subconscious. Regardless this is also a point that I want to discuss with the MC – maybe he can help identify the underlying issue there. Some possibilities: Obsessive disorders, curiosity, control, punishment, continue to vilify her – who knows? What about just trying to collect as much information as possible about something that turned your life upside down? After 9/11 how much time did we spend on TV and in newspapers hearing the stories, learning about the terrorists, watching the crashes over and over, collecting money for the families of the victim and learning about their lives – what was our ‘hidden agenda’ there? What about Katrina, the death of John Paul II, war in Iraq, the Laci Peterson case, the OJ Simpson case, the Natalee Holloway case, etc – what keeps us riveted to our TV screens, to Internet blogs, to newspapers – what justifies our thirst for every single lit bit of information? Can we not imagine that an A which has such a deep personal impact on us could trigger the same behaviors – or even more extreme behaviors? The only difference is that we don’t read about our A in newspapers, we don’t see special reports on TV, we don’t buy special edition magazine about it – there is one and only source of information about it – our WS. They have a monopoly on A information.

Yes, that’s the most important question right now. What I get over this? Can I forgive and can I move on? Can I live a fulfilling and happy life knowing that it happened? I don’t know the answer to any of these questions yet. I hope that I can but I am yet convinced.