Well at the very least I think it’s fair to see the A as a ‘turning point’, the question is the direction it leads to: destruction or improvement. Regardless it’s a very high price to pay and the outcome is unfortunately not guaranteed. I still often wonder if I can ever be happy with my W again, if I can ever truly forgive her for what she did, and refocus on her qualities rather than this terrible mistake. Infidelity must be quite a burden to bear in a relationship and I am worried that it will wear me down. I often feel overwhelmed just thinking about these things and the effort that it will require not only to get over the A but all to fix the issues that led to it.

Yet I feel compelled to go down that path with her – I think about our children, about the wonderful memories I have with her, about the happiness that she has given me, about our history together and our future. I want to think that I didn’t make a mistake 13 years ago when I married her, I want to think that she is still the woman of my life and will always be. Part of me is also so excited thinking about the improvements we could make in our relationships: more affection, better SF, more complicity, better friendship – those are carrots at the end of the stick for me! I know that I have had wonderful times with this woman and I would love to live those again.

You’re too hard on yourself!

As far as the IC- I just think it's important to understand why she had the A- for her recovery. It seems though, based on your comments, that she has a pretty good grasp on that.

I could have written those same statements about my marriage before the A.

I was at the bottom of a very long list of priorities- that were hobbies, job, TV, kids, home maintenance, wife. I felt that I was only wanted as a housekeeper, nanny, bookkeeper and bed mate.

When you talk about forgiving her the affair it almost seems as if you believe in some ways your actions were better than hers. You need to wrap your head around the fact that it was all sin- the neglect- the porn- the affair. Pretty much equal. People place a higher cost on certain aspects of sins- such as infidelity is higher than others but actually it's all sin. If you're putting yourself up on a higher moral pedestal and your wife below well then certainly there is going to be some issues there.

You did not make a mistake 13 years ago. Your wife is the same person who carried your children and attended to every other aspect of your life earlier- you two just got lost along the way from each other.

Well I think that she recognizes the environment we were in before the A, although she has never blamed the A on it. Now I think that it is fair to say that this environment, combined with the friendship with the OM, having the opportunities to be alone together, the OM making the first move, etc - all made the A possible. Now, "why" did she give herself the permission to do it? "Why" didn't she put an end to it earlier? That I don't know for sure. But I assume that there were some pleasant aspects to it obviously (attention, excitement, etc.) that motivated her enough to keep going. She will say that it was the ‘worst time of her life’, ‘the biggest mistake of her life’ and that she wasn’t doing a lot of thinking at the time. Sometimes I wonder if there could be really more to it than just that. I mean we know that the environment was not good; we know that our relationship needed improvement, and then basically she made a stupid mistake that she says she deeply regrets and never wants to repeat. I don’t have experience with IC but I wonder what the IC could add to that.

Believe me, I know I am no angel and I know that I contributed to the situation. Actually in many ways I still believe that overall she is more honest and has stronger moral values than I do. My problem is not that I think that I am better than her. My problem is that through her actions, she took a huge risk on our family (marriage, children, etc.) – that’s the part that is hard to accept.

Yes and I desperately want us to find each other again.

Okay, well let me put it this way.

Did your wife have a problem with you viewing porn??

To alot of women, porn is a form of infidelity- because you're sexually pleasing yourself sometimes while watching it.

If she had a problem with the porn and viewed it as a form of adultery and you indulged in that full knowing that- wouldn't that be kind of like you taking a huge risk as well?

If that was a deal breaker for her? And you did it anyway?

Have you studied addiction at all? The affair is like an addiction at the time it's going on. That explains alot about why a person would risk everything to get that- they do the same for drugs.

I'm not sure why I'm so affected by your thread and why I keep coming back over and over to offer my .02. Perhaps it's because I too was married 13 years when I had my A etc.

I hope the two of you find each other again.

Coachswife - we are talking about a difficult topic here and swimming in deep waters. What constitutes infidelity, what constitutes sin, are there degrees of sin, etc?

When I told my W about the porn (note that in this case I wouldn't talk about an addiction - I don't feel the need to do this, at all costs), she really didn't say much. I think that she saw it as pale in comparison to the A she has just admitted to. Since my admission she hasn't brought up the topic again. Maybe she will once the dust settles on the A. But so far I don't get the impression that this is a 'deal breaker' for her or that she considers it a form of infidelity.

I haven't studied addiction at all so I can't comment on that. I will take your word for it.

Thanks for trying to help me out. Hopefully this is not too much of a frustrating experience for you. I appreciate your concern and your guidance.

I agree that it's a difficult topic....

You will see here though that alot of BS's talk about the affair being a sort of addiction.

I feel that for a very long time there has been a huge gap between my SF needs and what my W was willing to provide. From my point of view, the rejection that I would feel when she would say the dreaded ‘not tonight’ always triggered some frustration and even some anger that would fuel a vicious circle: the more angry and frustrated I was, the less affectionate I was with my W, the more we were getting ‘emotionally disconnected’, and the less interested she became in SF. Bringing up SF at night was even becoming a source of stress for her as she knew that if she refused it would trigger the frustration and anger.

Since D-Day another dimension has been added to this problem: jealousy. In the first few weeks after D-Day we did go through a phase of ‘hysterical bounding’, I still think that we made love more often during that period than during the last 6 months before D-Day. But now it’s slowing down quite a bit. The night before last I got a ‘I am too tired’, last night I got a ‘I am not in the mood’, etc. Just as before I still feel rejected, which creates frustration and anger. But now I am also jealous. I am telling myself ‘I wonder if she ever told the OM no’, ‘how come she doesn’t want to make love to me but she made love to him for a whole week during their PA’, etc. That makes the whole rejection ever more difficult to handle.

From my W’s point of view she tells me that it is very difficult to be intimate with me when we have been fighting or arguing during the day. She tells me that she can’t go from a fight during the day to SF in the evening. She also told me last night that we will never be able to compete with the ‘fantasy’ that I am imagining about her A. She keeps telling me that it will take time and that we need to reestablish a strong emotional bond between us, then she thinks that we will see some improvements in SF. As for me I am still stuck with the fact that the lack of SF makes me frustrated which in turns makes it difficult to reestablish that emotional bound. Sometimes I feel that I am just being nice to her so that maybe I can get some SF at night – and when I don’t get it I feel frustrated again. I know that she is probably right about having to rebuild a strong emotional connection but I struggle with this frustration. I really feel stuck here. I really feel that I am facing a dilemma. I guess that it’s good that we are talking about this but I just don’t know how to solve this problem. PLEASE HELP!

I see this yet again as the struggle I experienced in my own marriage. We were kind of in the same cycle. I felt like he was only being nice to me when he wanted SF. I couldn't connect to him emotionally so I felt like I couldn't connect to him sexually.

I agree with her that it's hard for us to want to have SF when we've been fighting with our partners. I think God just made us that way. We can't switch those emotions off when it comes to SF.

I think it would be a good idea to explain to her that SF is how you connect to her emotionally and how that makes you feel loved?? Have you tried that one on one? If so try it in front of the marriage counselor.

I think your reactions to being jealous are normal and understandable. It must be painful for you. On the other hand, she is probably right that you're building the A up as a fantasy of thie wild unbridled sex when it probably wasn't that way.

When it comes down to it, you guys are at a standstill. I won't meet her needs for emotional connection because she is not meeting mine for SF. That starts a very dangerous spiral where things can happen that shouldn't. It's very important to meet each others EN's in the context of marriage. Has she agreed to fill out the EN's questionaire? Have you filled yours out and really sat down and gone over them?? That may help as well, as well as making a committment to go about making a plan to work on those.

Also, at some point you have to decide who is going to be the hero in the relationship?? Who is going to be the first to offer resolution to the issues? It's fine to sit back and say it's not going to be you- but that might not work out the way you want it to.

Yes I believe I have. I have told her that SF makes me feel desired and special, that it makes me feel warm inside. The lack of SF makes me feel rejected, insecure, and triggers many feelings of frustration and anger. This is something that I was planning to bring up to the MC though because I really think that this has been one of our core issues for quite some time – in my view that’s an issue that significantly contributed to the emotional disconnect that we had before the A, it continued to worsen between the A and D-Day, and that we are still struggling with it since D-Day now with the added dimension of ‘jealousy’. This is definitely a key stressor for us.

Yes I totally agree with you. I feel that we are in a complete deadlock right now and have been for quite some time. We still haven’t been able to find a solution that works for the two of us. The problem is that it has pushed us to seek satisfaction outside the M (A for her, porn for me) and will probably keep to do so (she may be vulnerable to another A, or maybe I will).

Yes we did that a couple of weeks after D-Day and we went over each other’s questionnaire. But we failed to make a plan or commit to meeting each other’s ENs. We basically just said what our most important ENs were and we kind of left it there.

Yes I think that you’re really hitting the nail on the head there.

I just wanted to give you a little update on my weekend. We had a very rough start on Saturday morning. I think that it all started when we were still laying in bed – I wanted to touch my W and be intimate with her – all that she wanted was sleep and my touch was bothering her as it was waking her up. Then my children starting coming into the room and I knew that my chances to be intimate with my W were completely shot. That frustration and feeling of rejection quickly turned into some anger and I became distant. I took my shower, got dressed and went downstairs to have breakfast. Shortly thereafter we took my little one to a morning activity – I barely spoke to my W on the way and she could tell that I was very pissed off. At the activity, we didn’t speak. It stayed that way for the whole morning until the early afternoon when we finally talked about what happened. She felt that she had done absolutely nothing wrong and she didn’t understand why I was mad at her for wanting to sleep. It eventually turned into a big argument and she ended up crying. After a little while our emotions came down. Later that afternoon she came next to me and was flirting with me, the next thing I knew we were making love. For me that completely changed my feelings for the rest of the day – I was now feeling loved, desired, special and in turn I became calmer, nicer, patient, more affectionate – and the rest of the day and evening went very well. Yesterday (Sunday) morning we made love again and we had a ‘perfect’ day. We were affectionate, close, and both felt great. I was very nice to her all day and made her favorite dish for dinner. In the evening my W even said that she almost forgot about our problems for a while and she thanked me for everything I had done for her that day. I had a good day too – I did have a couple of triggers during the day but I didn’t talk to her about them (I mostly didn't want to ruin the mood) and they eventually went away. It is interesting for me to see the impact that SF has on my moods. When there is SF I really feel that one of my most important ENs has been met and I feel so good inside that I want to meet hers and make her feel good too. However if SF is not met, it triggers a chain reaction of negative emotions that I still have a very hard time managing – it almost turns into a nasty LB. The power it has on my mood and emotions worries me.

I spoke with my W about this - she will usually tell me that it is easier for her to be intimate with me if I am nice to her and if she doesn't feel pressured. She says that the more pressure she feels, the less she wants SF - she mentioned feelings of 'stress' and 'performance anxiety'.

She called me this morning and thanked me again for yesterday. She seems up-beat and happy. She told me that she was looking forward to spending the evening with me. When we were on the phone I told her that I had a few triggers over the weekend and explained that they are still difficult for me to manage and recover from. I told her that they affect my moods and that she shouldn't be surprised if I suddenly become somber and maybe 30 minutes later I am back to normal. She seemed to understand that.

Hmmmmm, in reading this, I think it would be easy to get into a pattern to where your wife feels that she's only useful if you guys are having SF. And you don't want that. It might be a good idea to discuss with your MC how you can go about defeating the feeling that your needs must be met first before you can meet hers.

Ideally, it should be about one to the other thinking "What can I do today to make my spouse happy?" and concentrating on the other person more than you do yourself.

Coachswife - yes you're right, the pattern is obvious and predictable. Bottom line if I get SF, the chances are that I will be nice and affectionate, and if I don’t the chances are that I will be distant and will start firing a few LBs. Her saying no to SF has basically turned into a very powerful trigger, once that not only brings me back to the A but also to feelings of jealousy and insecurity with all the negative thinking that they usually generate. Note that this trigger is not ‘new’, i.e. wasn’t a direct result of the A, I feel that I have had it for a while; the A has just made it more powerful.

Your advice about “What can I do today to make my spouse happy?" is definitely the way to go – but it’s not easy – hard to break out of the selfish and protective behavior, mostly when you have been hurt and betrayed.

Have you been able to avoid the questioning? You are definitely being stretched here. Being selfless is hard even when circumstances are good, but when you have been betrayed, it is so much harder. But you have already decided that recovery is that path you want to stay on right? Well, this is the hard path of recovery. I'm on it too so I know it is not easy. I'm really greatful for this forum though.

Intention - I am glad to report that I haven't done ANY QUESTIONING WHATSOEVER since April 4, the date of our last MC session. I have really stuck to that plan and I am sure that my W is relieved not to be confronted with those questions all the time. Now I haven't been 'perfect' since April 4 either - at times I have been angry, frustrated, distant, etc. - but I am trying my best.

Great news! Good for you Asterix. Don't try to be perfect. Just try to be better than yesterday <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

We have two wonderful kids, 6 and 3. A couple of years ago my W was already talking about having a third child and at the time I really wasn’t interested. We then put the ‘topic’ aside for a long time – my W being very sad that she may never have another child again. Since D-Day the ‘topic’ is back. My W tells me that she would love to have another baby (she also says that she is already 35 and time is running out) and I just don’t know what to do. Part of me would like to have another child as well but I am worried that this is the wrong time to talk about this. We are only 2 months post D-Day and I am afraid that we are undertaking more than we can manage. I feel that we should let the dust settle on the whole A and be well into R before we start talking about another baby. I am also afraid: what if R fails (another child will be hurt now)? What if she has another A and we end up splitting up? I just feel that the A has proven that our M was not that strong (and needs some serious work) so why would I bring a third child into this and risk the happiness of a third person? I would appreciate some perspective on this whole thing. My gut just tells me that we should wait.

Conventional wisdom is to postpone all major decisions during a time of significan emotional upheaval and stress. Dealing with an A and embarking on your R definitely falls into that category. I totally understand your concerns and fears, they are not irrational. Can you communicate exactly what you have written in your post above to your W? You need to POJA this decision.

Personally, I would want to wait too. I think your W is probably ready for something else (e.g. a pregnancy) to replace the A as the focus of your relationship right now.

My take on the baby thing:

I am a FWW and my H started talking about a second child in the first week after D-day (and we had a 2 month old at the moment). I was shocked at his expressed desire for another child immediately after learning of my A (which had ended more than a year prior) but after thinking about it think I understand why he reacted in that way. Maybe your wife is reintroducing the idea of expanding your brood as a way of reaching out to you.

She may feel that having another child with you will show you how committed she is to your recovery and that it will "prove" to you that she loves you and wants to continue with you. Maybe she feels that your willingness to make that commitment with her would also "prove" to her that you really do want to make it work as well.

When my H said he wanted to go ahead and have another it made me realize that he was really serious about sticking around and working through things. It meant to me that he really still loved me and was willing to hedge his bets on our relationship enough to involve another little person in our life.

While I do want another baby with my H one day the only reasons I entertained the idea so soon after the first and just days after D-Day were those listed above.

I ran to the doc to start birth control to be sure it didn't happen right now. He ultimately agreed with me that we should wait and that a pregnancy would only make me more stressed and hormonal (remember howt that was with your first two?) and could make our recovery more difficult.

I know that she is probably worried that it is now or never because of her age, so understand that she may honestly feel that is what is causing her sense of urgency. Let her know that you love her. That you know she loves you. And that she doesn't have to bear you another child to prove that.

Point out to her that this is a time where you need her to be strong for you. That she may not be able to do that if she's pregnant. And that you want to be there for her (her rock to lean on) if/when you do decide to enlarge your family.

Just my thoughts...

Best of luck to you.

DW

I think that putting a timeframe on that decision is a good idea. But reaching a solid joint agreement on that plan will be challenging.

I know that in her mind she keeps thinking about her age and the risks involved in waiting any longer to have another child. She also knows that it may take a while to get pregnant (she was mentioning ‘up to one year’) and she is factoring that in. Note that OB/GYN is her field so she knows all the ins and outs, risks, statistics, etc as she faces them every day. I don’t know how she will take it if I ask her to wait another year before we try to have another child. I think that she will feel that she has waited a long time already and that time is running out. She is seeing a window of opportunity closing very quickly and probably feels that waiting another year may be equivalent to deciding not to have another child.

Note that, IMO, none of this is directly related to the A itself. A lot of these discussions and concerns were already voiced before the A took place – but they were then put on the ‘back burner’ for a while, so much so that I think that she was convinced I was just not interested in having another baby at all. Discussions about another baby resurfaced soon after D-Day. I think that we were in a ‘hysterical bounding’ phase and our children representing such a strong bond and source of joy for us made it almost natural to bring up the ‘other baby’ again. I really don’t think that she considers having another child as a ‘fix’, evidence of commitment, proof of love, etc. That’s just something she really wants to do, and has always wanted to do. At least that’s my take on it.

At this time I find myself in somewhat of a catch 22, a classic ‘damn if you do, damn if you don’t’ situation.

Pros of having a child:

• A third bundle of joy in our lives
• ‘Making the baby’ could put SF in hyper-drive (one of my top ENs)
• It will make my W very happy
• It could add the very positive dimension to our R, focusing on our future together

Cons of having a child (right now):

• Two months post D-Day I am still obviously dealing with strong issues of trust and concerns that our R will fail
• I doubt that we are in the right state of mind to make such a decision with clarity. My W still dealing with shame, guilt, feeling of worthlessness over the A. I, on the other hand, still struggling with severe mood swings, anger, frustration, etc.
• We haven’t reached POJA on this one
• Pregnancy could negatively affect R: more tired, moody, hormonal changes, etc.
• I am worried that saying no to a child ‘right now’ will negatively affect our R: will she be more distant, less affectionate, less interested in intimacy, SF, etc.? Basically less able to meet my ENs, and less open to letting me meet hers?

Writing down the pros and cons shows me that the ‘cons’ could be resolved over time. It reinforces the thought that giving more time and focus to our R right now could, over time, offset the ‘cons’ and make the ‘pros’ even stronger, probably making it a lot easier for us to reach POJA on this important topic. But the first step is to reach POJA on the plan (e.g. invest a year in R before making another baby) in the first place.

My W and I ended up talking for quite a bit this morning about the ‘baby’ and I am not so sure that I like the way the conversation went. From her point of view, she has wanted a third child for quite some time before the A but she had the impression that I had given her a ‘categorical no’ and that I was absolutely not interested, not then or in the future. After D-Day, she felt that I was more open to the idea, and she sensed an opportunity to have a third baby. She told me that she loved me, wanted to spend the rest of her life with me, believed in us, and therefore she saw no ‘risk’ in having a third baby with me and enlarging our family. She also brought up the question of the ‘biological clock’ again and reinforced the fact that the longer we wait, the more unlikely we will be to have a normal pregnancy (risks, complications, infertility, etc). I explained to her that for the time being we should really concentrate on each other, rebuild our relationship and our M, and that I was worried that a pregnancy/birth during R would possibly be distracting, not giving the time, energy, and focus to deal with our issues. I really don’t think that she bought that. Quite the contrary actually, she feels that the pregnancy would be a positive element of R, and she doesn’t think that her being pregnant would distract form R at all or make her less able to focus on me/us. However she feels that I want to wait because I am still not sure that I want her in my life anymore. She thinks that I am buying time to see how things work out between us. She says that I am afraid of the potential tragedy of a ‘third child’s heart being broken by parents splitting up’. So now she questions my motivation for wanting to wait. She did say however that ‘waiting’ wouldn’t be such a problem if we didn’t have the biological clock ticking (‘It wouldn’t be a problem if I was still 24’, she said). She asks me “what would happen if you decide that we should have a baby in two or three years and we can no longer have one?”. We went back and forth on this for quite some time. After much conversation she eventually told me that she understood my concerns and would wait for my ‘consent’. She said that she wouldn’t want to get pregnant without my full agreement. So she said “just tell me when you think that you are ready – but stop changing your mind – it’s too difficult for me when you give me hope and then take it away”. So does she buy into it? Not really. Will she go along with the plan? Probably. But I seriously doubt that this is POJA. That’s why I told her that I wanted to talk about this until we reached an agreement that we both believed in. I don’t want this to turn into a WIN-LOSE situation where she either gets her way or I get mine.