Asterix,

Just some thoughts on your last post. It seems to me perspective is required here. With your indulgence could a put a few words in your mouth and see what you think.

I guess if I was speaking with your W there are a few things I would point out.

The first is that I (you) would enjoy having a third child. (you indicated that was the case). So I (you) am in agreement with her about that.

Next, I (you) know that while the clock is ticking, it is NOT ticking as loud as W is making out because this would be the 3rd child. Therefore, there is much less risk at this age. Further, given the modern medical care and yes modern diet women have a high rate of successful pregnancies into their 40's. The data is there. So perhaps waiting a year is not that big of a deal. If this was the first child then more concern, but again not a lot.

If I were talking for you, I would point out that I don't want to feel pressured about this right now. There are several reasons. The first is that she has had 9 months to address this situation and I (you) have only had 2 months. The next reason is that she does not have to rebuild trust because I (you) did not break that trust. She knows I will be faithful. I on the other hand need to rebuild trust.

What I would tell her next will shock her. I need to build trust in myself, that I am a good enough husband for her, that I can meet her needs, that I can love her as I want and need to. I need to trust that I am good enough in bed to satisfy her so that she will not have another affair. I need to trust that I can get me emotions under control, and let go of the anger, the fear, the jealousy, and the pure pain of it.

What she would hear is that I want to trust her, but even if I trusted her completely my lack of trust in myself makes healing a requirement, and I have only had 2 months.

Finally, I would point out to her that men and women see children slightly differently. Women carry them, bond with them, and focus on them. There hormones change because of the children. So there is no way she will be focused on the marriage as the natural thing for women to do is focus on taking care of the children and the coming child, feathering the nest so to speak. So I know she will NOT focus on our issues. Further, for men having their W pregnant serves no emotional purpose, it does not lift us, it does not alter our hormones. It does bring financial concerns and worries about whether or not we can handle another child. And right now it puts me (you) at risk.

She needs to step back just a second and realize that while I would like another child, I am NOT healthy enough to have another child, and because I am not healthy enough, neither is the marriage.

Asteric, that is what I would tell your W about my thoughts of having another child. If she really wanted another child before the A, having the A was NOT a good choice for her to make because it wrecked you and you now need to heal and regain confidence and trust in yourself as a husband, lover, father.

Just some thoughts. Perhaps this will help shape your discussions with her on this. I agree with you, that her becoming pregnant right now, will NOT help the marriage. It may well lead to you having a lot of resentment. And resentment will NOT make you a better father.

Must go,

God Bless,

JL

JustLearning – these are very strong points and they correctly reflect my current state of mind. I do indeed think that I am our biggest R risk at this time. I am struggling with many insecurities (some of which existed before the A but were reinforced by the A), and many other painful emotions (anger, fear, jealousy, anxiety, triggers, etc.). I also still have very ambivalent feelings about my W – some time feeling so much love and affection for her, other times feeling so disgusted for what she did and wanting to retaliate (e.g. separate, have my own A, etc.).

At this point I believe that things will eventually work out but this roller coaster of emotions is still very unsettling and make its very difficult to make any long term commitments/decisions like having another child. I would also be concerned about my true motivations at this point for deciding to have a child or not. My emotional state is so unstable that I worry that I would say ‘yes’ or ‘no’ for the wrong reasons and would end up resenting my decision in the end.

For instance if I had to list the reasons for saying ‘yes’, I would probably include: make my W happy (and benefit from that happiness), increased frequency in SF while ‘making’ the baby, and strengthen our bond (and as I write this I realize that it would not help since our two wonderful children didn’t prevent her from having an A in the first place).

I still want to stick to my proposed plan to ‘wait a while longer’. I was also thinking that it would be a good idea to bring up this topic during MC.

I just got the confirmation that I was going back to Europe in early May for another business trip. My W asked me if it was still ok for her to come with me (see post #2969692) and of course I said yes. I hope that she will be able to get the vacation she needs to make it happen. She is really excited and I think that the trip will give us some great quality time to focus on each other without the usual distractions. Of course I will have some work to do but I should be able to free up some time to do some sightseeing and we will have all our evenings together. For me it will also be great to have some company on the plane and in the hotel room at night, I usually feel so lonely on those trips. The last time I traveled by myself (see post #2980073), things didn’t go very well and I ended up arguing with my W over the phone several times that week. I sincerely hope that this trip can contribute to our healing. Any suggestions/recommendations?

Good news. That is a great opportunity. Definitely try to get a few personal days for sightseeing etc., but don't make your schedule too full or hectic else it will end up being more stressful and less relaxing. The physical and cultural change of location should also be a good break for the both of you.

Be spontaneous. Treat the time you have together as though you were first dating. Laugh, dance, drink. Court her all over again. Work to give her those same good feelings you used to give her way back when you first laid eyes on each other. I'd be willing to bet that it does some good.

...and DON'T TALK ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED. You may be thinking about what she could be doing while you're off working and she is at the hotel all alone or wandering the streets, but remember:

Energy flows where attention goes.

Put your attention on to positive things you'll want to do with (or to) her that evening and you'll find yourself worrying less about what could be happening in a very remote circumstance and thinking more about what WILL be happening when you're off duty and ready to go!

Good luck!

I am growing increasingly worried about what is known as the ‘anger’ phase. I am two months post D-Day right now. So far it has been a roller coaster ride of emotions with some good days and some very bad days, and sometimes with some good ‘hours’ and some very bad ‘hours’ within the same day (mood swings). My feelings have gone from hopeful/happy, to sad/depressed, to angry/frustrated. Based on what I have read on this forum and others, this is perfectly normal. But I keep hearing from others that I am still to experience the dreaded ‘anger phase’. As far as I am concerned I am already angry and I have been angry ever since I found out about the A. I have had some significant angry outbursts, lashed out at my W (verbally), thrown things around, called her names, etc (and this very early after D-day). What defines the ‘anger’ phase, how is it different from what I have already experienced? What should I expect? I am worried about this phase, not only because of the emotions I am likely to experience (I am already tired of this whole thing) but also because of the impact that it could have on my W and therefore on our R. Does everyone experience the anger phase a few months after D-Day, is it possible that I am already there?

Hi asterix,

I have no knowledge of the anger phase so I'm hoping someone else will chime in here, I just wanted to say hi and that I think you've been doing well lately.

Hey asterix, here's an interesting article on that. LINK

Here's a quote "We don't have to go through the stages in sequence. We can skip a stage or go through two or three simultaneously."

Hope this is helpful.

coachswife - thanks. Things are indeed 'ok'. I don't know if I would say that I have been doing well but let's just say that I have had worst days - and I guess that it's an improvement.

Asterix - I just read some of your posts and I think our situations sound very similar.

Like you, my needs for SF have not been met by my W for a long time. Also like you, I got pissed about it all the time and basically withdrew, acted disappointed in her, gave her the silent treatment etc. I wasn't very nice.

This went on for probably 15 years. When she did give me what I wanted I would be very nice, affectionate etc. for a short time. When she didn't, I wouldn't be.

My behavior took it's toll on her and she ultimately concluded I didn't care. So she had a short EA. I think it would have been a PA except that I found out very quickly. Not my fault, but I contributed to it.

Before that even happened, however, we decided to make a schedule for SF. While it has some definite disadvantages, it does solve the "getting mad over SF" issue to a large extent since you know what to expect and when.

Don't get me wrong, it hasn't solved all our problems by a long shot - I feel a lot like you - very pissed, not sure I want to be here etc. - but at least it solved that one sort of.

Oh my goodness!!! I didn't think that anyone could know exactly what I was going through. Your post and your expressions in them are exactly what I'm going through now with my husband. I want to be around him all the time now as well and if he's not around I let me mind wonder to crazy things and when I see him I'm so angry that all I can do is argue and accuse him of things. He cheated on my and conceived a baby out of the deal so the rebuilding is going to be a major reconstruction of our relationship. I want him to go but at the same time I want him to stay--how confusing is that. He will answer certain things as well but when I continue to ask the same questions figuring that if he has left something out then maybe this time he will say something that he hadn't said before and then it will give a clear mind about leaving him. I do want to know everything about the affair but still I know that by knowing it will only add to my anger. I don't know what to do.

Hey Asterix...got an update? How are you doing?

Intention – thanks for checking on me, I appreciate it. I guess that overall I am doing a bit better. My W and I are still going to MC, once a week, and it’s helping us a lot. I think that we found a good counselor. I guess that one of my biggest achievements over the last few weeks has been my ability to stop questioning my W about the A. Actually I haven’t asked her a single question about it for at least 10 days and surprisingly enough I am not worse off because of it. My W appreciates the effort; she is now more comfortable around me which is also helping our R.

I have also made a big effort to be more positive and concentrate on the present and future rather than focus on the A.. I still face triggers every now and then during the day but I am learning to manage them better and they eventually dissipate. Overall I think that there has been an improvement in my moods and overall behavior but I feel that I am still not out of the woods yet. There is still plenty of anger and frustration in me and I am not always very successful at managing them. My W senses that and her natural reaction is to distance herself from it. Still we are still working together on R and the overall trend has been one of improvement.

My relationship with my W is okay. I think that the phase of ‘hysterical bounding’ is ending, to my chagrin – but in a way that also is slowly coming back to normal. We are making an effort to spend more time together, playing games, enjoying the kids, holding each other while watching TV, etc. I am also taking her on a business trip to Europe in a few weeks, just the two of us, we should be able to have some nice quality time. Yesterday evening, before MC, I took her out to dinner. It was nice, pleasant, simple and we both enjoyed it. We are also going to church every week together now – it’s in all these little things that we are trying to reestablish some closeness between us and some normalcy in our lives.

FYI - I have also been discussing my 'anger' in another thread: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...;page=0#2990285

You've come a long way <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Thanks for the update. I'm glad to hear you seem to have gotten past the questioning. I think you guys are on the right track. The weekly MC must be great. My FWW only went twice. I'll check out your other thread...

Yes ending the questioning was a bit step for me and quite an improvement from my FWW’s perspective. I have come to believe that, after a while, my questions were no longer asked to gain information but to be comforted or to punish my W. I find that they were often associated with my triggers. For instance I would get a trigger, the trigger would generate a bunch of questions in my mind, and I would immediately start questioning my W (either to verify the accuracy of the trigger, or to get back at her for the pain that the trigger was causing). By learning to manage my triggers better, i.e. let them dissipate without responding to them right away, I am also managing the questioning.

Something I am still struggling with right now is the stability of my emotions. I am still moody and even though I try to manage my triggers, they still affect my behavior. In those cases my W immediately sees that something has changed – she reads my body language, my tone, my look. At this point her natural tendency is to distance herself from me at those times. She will hesitate to come close to me and be affectionate as she is still worried that I will lash out at her as I have in the past. I understand that my behavior doesn’t invite closeness but at the same time I often feel that her affection at those times would help me improve my mood faster. I guess that over time she will see that she can come close to me when I am like that without any kind of negative consequences. I have told her that I needed her attention and affection at those times, but it’s still difficult for her to ‘come into the lions’ den’ without fear.

This morning, as I was getting ready for work, I had a big trigger – thinking about their PA, and imaging the passion and intensity of their love making, probably having sex for hours, with more enthusiasm than she has shown me in years (note that my W has told me before that we couldn’t compete with my “imagination” about their PA). That trigger almost made me noxious. My reaction was to come to her (she was still in bed) and ask her for a big hug. She asked me what was going on and if I was sad – I just told her that I was sad but that I didn’t want to talk about it (I didn’t want to make her feel bad by talking about the trigger I just had and spoil the day). I then told her that I wanted to make love to her – and she told me that she didn’t feel like it. That ‘rejection’ added another trigger on top of the other. I was now asking myself why she would do it with him in the morning and not with me. Anger, frustration, and insecurities came back to the surface immediately. She could obviously see that I was disappointed and her body language changed, she crossed her arms and started looking away from me. At those times she is worried that the ‘rejection’ will cause me to be disappointed and will actually worsen my mood. She is right. In order to avoid any nasty comments, I kissed her, got up, and kept getting ready for work. It was apparent that I was not happy and that I was disappointed, but I said goodbye and left. It took a while this morning for those two consecutive triggers to dissipate, literally a couple of hours. I have always had a hard time with sexual rejection but since D-Day it has become worse. This is affecting my W and actually make intimacy that much more difficult. Are other BH in the same situation? How have you “learned” to handle rejection better?

asterix - I actually posted earlier on this thread about 5 posts or so above this.

I am terrible at handling rejection of SF too. That has probably been the biggest problem in my M - the rejection and the way I acted after rejection.

We now have a schedule for SF as mentioned in the above post. Not perfect, but it works to a certain extent - there is basically no rejection anymore. Of course, it ends all spontonaeity etc. and I can't ever ask for anything (she can but rarely does), but in our case I think it was and is necessary.

Part of our problem is my sex drive is about 50 times what hers is - mine is really too much, but I can't do anything about it.

Anyway, that's how we have dealt with that issue. Plenty of other issues left .....

Yes I remember your suggestion. The funny thing is that last weekend my W brought it up as an idea. She basically proposed that we would have sex on average every 3 days. But then she added “…until I get pregnant” (this is a whole other story that I have written about extensively in this thread). So while I would have been open to a scheduled SF, the pregnancy thing was pretty much a deal breaker. She then apologized to have brought up the ‘baby’ topic. Plus to tell you the truth I don’t know how I feel about scheduling SF. First, if behavior predicts, I don’t think that my W would keep her end of the bargain. I think that when SF-day comes up it would still be a question of whether or not she feels like it, then maybe we would do it on SF-day+1, or +2, and then the whole agreement falls apart. So in a way scheduling is a great way to justify not having sex (i.e. today is not SF-day), but it’s still no guarantee that you will have sex on SF-day – at least I suspect that it’s how it would work at my house. I am also afraid that it completely de-romanticizes SF and turns it into a pure duty, a chore, and I don’t see the fun and enjoyment in that – if anything it will turn her off to the idea even more and she will start dreading SF-day. This would completely work against my true goal which is to re-romanticize our relationship and bring the passion back. I may sound overly negative about this idea and maybe I should give it a chance before I kill it but bottom line I don’t think that this suggestion will work for us. This being said, thank you for sharing your experience. In your case, has your W kept her end of the agreement? For how long have you had this agreement? Is your W satisfied with it?

PS: By the way this complete disproportion betwee my W's SF appetite and mine made me think for the longest time that I was the most vulnerable to having an A (not my W). And to this day I still see that as being the biggest risk to me having an A.

We started it the end of July - so about 9 mos. now. I will have to say that W has been very good about keeping her end of it. I try to be understanding if she doesn't feel good or something, but that rarely happens. She has told our MC that it actually makes her want to do it more to a certain extent since it makes her think about it more and since she doesn't really feel as much pressure.

Of course, W wanted to do it so she has a lot of incentive to make it work. If they don't stick to it, I think it's actually the worst case since you expect it and don't get it - .

You are right that it does "de-romanticize" it to a certain extent. There is no real way around that. That is the big disadvantage. There are times when I can tell she is doing it just because it's a schedule night. I have told her I really don't ever want to do it if she doesn't want to ... doesn't solve the problem totally.

For us, we really needed to do something and this was about the only thing we could think of that would work - and it has worked OK for us. Not perfect, but OK. Sex was a huge problem for us and while this is not perfect, it's a vast improvement.

Now that I think about it this approach could actually work for us as well. At this point I would first like to work on better managing my emotions when faced with ‘rejection’. Actually the fact of calling it or perceiving it as ‘rejection’ may already be part of the problem. I would like to learn to handle that better without feeling so much frustration, anger, and resentment – and all the negative consequences that it has on my relationship with my W. In terms of ‘de-romanticizing’ the relationship, this has a terrible impact, it puts so much stress and anxiety around the topic of SF that it becomes a huge “turn-off” for my W, further fueling the vicious circle.

In my view this feeling of rejection is not a direct result of the A (just made worse by the A) and therefore it is a longer term issue that I need to resolve. I hope that my W can support me in this maybe by managing my expectations a little bit better, communicating a bit better, etc – actually I don’t really know what would help from her side. This is something I would really like to discuss with her in depth; we just haven’t really had a chance to do so yet. Scheduling SF may be the solution to our problem.

You might as well try it - doesn't sound like you have much to lose. We didn't have much to lose either.

Very similar to my situation - I did a terrible job with "rejection" - and even like you, I think part of the issue is considering it to be "rejection" - when it's really not.

Anyway, good luck with it.

Thanks.