Asterix,

Don't play the pursuer/pursued game. It will hurt you and her. You are leveling unspoken expectations on her, and since she is NOT a mind reader, she will fail. That will lead to resentment and that will lead to more pain for both of you.

I know it would feel good if she pursued you right now. But, what you really want is that woman to come to you with a smile on her face, KNOWING you want her and need her. What you are doing will never have that happen. You did a poor job of reading her mind, hence she had the affair. She will do a poor job of reading your mind, hence you both will fail.

Message, YOU ARE BOTH LOUSY MINDREADERS! Talk communicate. I am sure she fears your mood swings. I am sure as they settle down and she is more confident that her efforts will be well received, she will increase her efforts. It is very hard for both of you right now, so don't bring in a "mission impossible" type task for her.

Be open, be honest with her and yourself, and let her help you. You may feel you are needy (and you are to an extent), but she is needy as well. She needs to see a way to help you, she needs to be able to help you, and you need to help her. If you don't do these things NEITHER of you will feel needed nor useful. THAT, is not the way a marriage should be.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

Asterix,

You said
Yeah there is that pot thing. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> but, you are right it takes time for these things. I just posted to you about not doing the pursurer/pursued thing. But, let's look at your marriage for a second. Let's look at it through MY eyes.

Frankly, if I had children in my early to mid 20's you and your W could be my children. I have seen a bit in my time. And I have learned a few things. Let me tell you something about my father, who passed decades ago now.

He was my hero when I was a kid. He was a war hero, very highly decorated, and very successful. He was my father after all. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> But, I as I grew older I learned he was a man, and yes he had flaws. The older I got the closer friends we became and I learned even more about him. Given that he was my hero and in my eyes perfect, it was clear that learning anything about him would NOT meet those standards, and yes he had flaws. He was not a perfect student, nor did he sing in the choir at church. He was not a boy scout. He was tough, and he was NOT nearly as successful as he thought he should have been, thus he felt he failed. Later in life he had health issues and we had long and deep conversations about life, successes, failures, what coulda, woulda, shoulda beens.

Oddly he felt he failed at more things than he succeeded at and he feared we kids were not and should not be very proud of him although he was a great Dad. What he did not see or realize, that the more I found out about his flaws, the more amazed I was at his successes and how far he came in life.

If he had been perfect, been raised in a great environment, had all of the breaks, his accomplishments would not have been so impressive. The fact that he was human, and had to overcome sooo much was what made him so special.

Asterix, your marriage is not perfect. You are not perfect. Your W is not perfect. But, she is willing to work to overcome her failings and shortcomings. She is willing to face her failures and try to make your marriage a good one. If you decide to do the same, your marriage will NOT be perfect, it will be something YOU BOTH will be proud of. It's flaws, it's strengths, the love within, the children you rear in it and bring forth to society those are the things you will be sooo proud of.

People have flaws, they make mistakes, they learn, they grow, and they are lovable even when flawed. Asterix, you have a real live human being on your hands and she wants to be your W. Think about that. You will always regret if you don't choose door #1 and decide to give her the love she deserves from you. I know it is hard. I know you are only two months out, but you are being given a unique OPPORTUNITY here, seize it.

God Bless,

JL

Yes, you make a good point, and I agree. It is just that sometimes I feel tired to “try to be good”, I feel tired to be the one who initiates the hugs, the kisses, the SF. I feel tired to be the one who asks and is told “no”. Sometimes I just want to lay back and let things happen to me for a change…Resentment is indeed a risk since she will usually fall short of my expectations and will end up disappointing me. Actually if behavior predicts, it’s more than a risk, it’s a certainty. That may indeed very well be a setup for failure. Point well taken.

Still I need to find a balance there. If I am too pushy she will feel overwhelmed and she will push back or retreat. If I am too distant she will worry, wonder if I am angry, and she will hesitate to get closer. So finding the right approach is not easy and I am not sure that I always have the patience to experiment, at least not these days.


I don’t know how I feel about that statement. It has a taste of cause and effect that I don’t agree with. It implies “if I had done a good job reading her mind then she wouldn’t have had an A”. Should the ability to read minds be expected from a spouse? What about her own responsibility in this?


I still think that her admission of the A was a very courageous thing to do. I don’t know if I would have been capable of doing the same thing.


Very powerful statement, JL. I know that I don’t want “door #2” – I find this option so wasteful, so hurtful, so overwhelming, and so irreversible. But then why is it that I hesitate about “door #1”, what is it about this middle ground that makes it feel comfortable right now? My MC suggested that it is a place where I don’t have to “trust”, a place where I can keep vilifying my W, a place where I can keep my guard up so that I can’t be hurt again, and probably also a place where I can keep punishing her until I feel that she has suffered enough for what she did to me. Maybe it’s her purgatory. Right now the middle ground is my home base. Sometimes I peek behind door #1, and sometimes I peek behind door #2 (maybe just for ‘due diligence’). Either time or a leap of faith, or both, will make be go through door #1 and lock the door behind me (I say "lock" because the back and forth is not viable). I see my W behind door #1 and she is begging me to come in. I feel that she is ready and she is just waiting for me. Is there anything I can do to help me make that decision? Is there anything she can do? Am I still too fresh post D-Day to make such a decision now (am I burning the stages)?

Asterix,

You stated
I could have that taste, but it was meant that if you knew what she was thinking, and you knew of her unhappiness, then you would have had a chance to short circuit her decision making. But, since you cannot read her mind, you must rely on her actions and her words and both can deceive you if you two don't communicate fully. Reading minds would really help most marriages Asterix, or perhaps we would never marry. I am not sure. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You also said
Ah balance, you are exactly right. Here is the dynamic I sense. It is up to you to see if this is correct. She fears your mood swings as do you. She is not sure when to step up or step back. She may well feel like initiating things, but fears it is the wrong time. She will need to feel safe Asterix, and that requires you talk to her about your feelings, your fears, your need for her to initiate, and listen to her fears if she does not.

Ask her what she thinks would be a good marriage, a good sex life, a happy home. Have your ideas ready and discuss them, don't debate them. There are no "right" answers, but there is the potential that if you talk you both may find that both of you have undersold yourselves with regard to this marriage, and that things could be much better than either of you thought. It is a matter of perspective, agreement, and sensitivity. AND it takes work and months of discussion.

You also said
Express this to her, but not in the "you" do or don't do this. Express that "I" feel so tired sometimes. "I" need your help, yes even with sexual things sometimes. "I" don't mind hearing "no" from you, but it would help if you suggested a time when you would be willing to be together. Then the "no" is not a rejection, it is a postponement.

Ask HER for help Asterix, but in things that she can "do". Things that you make sure she is happy she did for you. She will need help and encouragement as well. She will and probably feels very tired as well. Talk to her about it.

Ask her "Dear, are you tired of...? I sure am. Let's talk about it and see if we can figure out something that will help us." Do you see?

Asterix, you must lead your own recovery. She cannot heal you. That is the burden the WS bears. They can cause soo much pain, but they cannot really heal it. That you must do. They can keep the wound clean, they can change the dressing and put anticeptic on it, but the healing is all yours. They learn that, and it hurts them...deeply.

I think you have had and do have a very good attitude, and I think as you gain strength and can really reach out to your wife, your marriage will become something much better than it ever was, yes with some scars, but more open, stronger, and yes even more loving.

There is a lot of hope here Asterix. If I could speed your healing I would. If your W could she would, but you have to do most of the heavy lifting yourself. It is the way of things you know.

God Bless,

JL

PS: I always looked at things as "you can drive the bus or ride in the bus. But in either case if the bus is in a wreck you get hurt." I prefer to drive the bus myself. I think you will find that as you drive the bus, set the tone, show love and forgiveness you will arrive at where you want: loved, respected, and cared for. Odd how that happens. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

JL - you have shared so much wisdom here that my head is spinning. In a good way <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Asterix - do you realize that I would not be enjoying this wisdom if you had not chosen to be so open about your situation? The pain you have suffered has led to the condition that has helped me with my own suffering. Thank you.

I love your analogy of the door. Go through number 1 and lock the door!

Thanks again for your continued support and insights. Last night we had a tough MC session. It was the second session in a row where the MC is trying to focus on my W. I guess that I have been monopolizing the sessions so far (The MC observed that I was probably the ‘pursuer’). As usual my W wasn’t very talkative. So I brought up the whole question of ‘marital issues’ vs. ‘personal issues’ (see post #2997049 above). As I was trying to explain my rationale for this question I could feel my emotions flaring up (anger, frustration, etc.) and it was obviously very noticeable also for the MC and my W – I think that they were getting a bit uncomfortable. I think that my W took it to mean that I needed guarantees, that I wanted the MC to find out what was wrong with her so that we could fix her and it would never happen again. I also expressed that I wanted to know what the A was like for her, how she felt during the A, and after the A. First she didn’t seem to believe that I was genuinely interested in knowing her feelings, she also said that she didn’t feel comfortable talking to me about those things because something she said could always be held against her and ‘thrown in her face’ later. She kept saying that she felt that I was looking for ‘something’, and she didn’t know what that was. The MC said that I was obviously not being very effective in finding out about her feelings, that the best way to achieve that was to talk about my own feelings, how I felt at the time, and how I feel now, and create a comfortable and safe environment where she can start expressing her feelings. Just asking her how she felt at the time, with anger & frustration in my voice, would not get me to know her feelings. He proposed that maybe that was something he could talk about with my W one on one (I took it to mean some IC), but he wasn’t sure he could get her to share her feelings either.

Note that I also shared my analogy about the two doors (see post #2997888 above). I think that the MC took it to mean that I was not ready to truly start R and working on the M, that I was still waiting, that it was a comfortable place for me. I told him that I desperately wanted to go through door #1, that I needed help to do that.

At the end he concluded by asking my W if she felt that things could be worked out between us, she answered “Yes I have faith”, the MC responded “We will see”. I don’t know that his last statement meant, and maybe I am just over-sensitive right now, but I felt so incredibly depressed and hopeless coming out of the session.

When we got home I gave her a hug and spoke with my W a little while longer. I told her that I was committed to our R and that I knew that we would succeed. She thanked me for saying that. Later on we watched some TV together, played with the kids, and put them to bed. Soon thereafter we were laying in bed. She was relaxing and I was holding her hand. I came close to her and told her that I wanted to make love to her. She just said ‘thanks’, and then she said that she didn’t feel like doing that tonight. That exchange of words was so cold and so detached. My W commented that the way I asked to make love was so ‘stressed’ and ‘nervous’. As for me it feels that every time I bring it up she looks bothered. Then the vicious circle stared once again…as if I was suddenly becoming another person, my emotions just take over, I was triggering like crazy (thinking about her PA with the OM, how she didn’t reject him, how she did it with him 3 days in a row, etc). I was obviously all stressed out, angry, frustrated, and I made a couple of snide remarks. I was thinking once again that I should just give up on the whole idea of having SF with my W, that anyway she wasn’t that great a lover, that I was rejected in most cases anyway, and that it just wasn’t worth all the aggravation and frustrations. I was thinking that maybe I would only find the passion that I need with another woman, one that would be sexually interested in me, and one that would initiate, and make me feel wanted – one that would be interested in me as a ‘lover’! I event told her that I would probably go sleep in the guest room. In my mind at the time I was literally giving up on my W, peeking behind door #2 again, all this because she had said ‘no’ again. She just kept telling me that she didn’t want to start an argument, that she didn’t want to find, that she just didn’t feel like having SF that night. She was basically refusing to engage with me, it was late, she was tired, she had a tough day and a heavy schedule the following day. We each rolled to our side of the bed, and eventually fell asleep.

This morning we cuddled for a few minutes when we woke up. I told her that I was sorry for last night. She said that she is stressed about SF because if she doesn’t feel like doing it, she will have to face all the negative consequences (see above). She is also convinced that if we had SF, or if she had ‘serviced me’, none of this would have happened last night. I apologized again, told her that I wasn’t proud of my behavior, that I was embarrassed. Then time ran out and she had to get up for work.

I am now at work and I have been thinking about this all morning. Sexual rejection is such a powerful trigger for me, it scares me. I really feel those emotions taking me over and it feels like I am becoming someone else, someone who is so angry and so frustrated. I think that it’s fair to say that this is a very big issue right now, and one that preceded the A – the A just made it worth, gave it more weight, more pain. That it maybe why I keep trying to convince myself that I should just give up on SF with my W. Giving up means not trying anymore, and not trying would mean no rejection. But what kind of life would that be? Is it possible to go through door #1 without a satisfactory SF? I just don’t know how to handle this situation. Sorry for the long post but I have a lot on my mind right now.

asterix,
I don't think your wife really understands how the male sexuality works. I've been told by my co-worker once that if I could try to leave only one day with all the testosterone I would be shocked. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> I also was lectured by my WH on this. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> And I hear what men around are talking about and I see how men are looking at the women. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
For woman, mother of D and BS it is kind of disgusting. But if I want my M to work I have to accept it. Why don't you buy something on the subject of male sexuality and ask your W to read it?
Before my H A I was not interested at all but even then I realized that I have to try harder and it is not my H fault that I am paranoid about world's troubles, etc. After all she may like it too <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />, also it is good for her health. I don't know if you drink - but having a glass of wine helps me to relax.
Does she know how important S is for men? I can't say that I am happy with this fact but there is nothing I can do.

Now she is risking your M. You would get more progress in your R. Is your MC male or female? Can he(she) talk to her about that? To me it is the same on the emotional level. If my H did not kiss me in the morning - I am depressed and thinking about door#2 (I love your expression). If he is smiling I am optimistic and happy all day.

By the way we are almost 6 month after DDay and it is nothing like 4 or 3 month ago. I almost never feel angry, just sad and bitter sometimes. But most of the time I feel normal and surprisingly happier then I was before the DDay. I guess because my H is totally different person now. Be patient. I really believe in statistics. If people say it is possible then I want it to work for me too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Maril – thanks for your input. I really don’t know how to handle this SF (or lack thereof) situation. Clearly my W will only want to have SF is she feels like it and that includes all sexual acts, even those that are just for my benefit (no need to be too graphic here I assume – that’s what she has called ‘servicing me’, an expression that I absolutely hate). She has told me that she sometimes ‘forced’ herself but it didn’t make her feel good so now she doesn’t do that anymore. In a way I think that this is perfectly normal and acceptable. I don’t want my W to have SF with me if she doesn’t want to, that wouldn’t make me feel good either, and it wouldn’t feel right. What I desperately want is for my W to desire me, to want me, to chase me, to be into me. I feel that the short period of ‘hysterical bounding’ is now over and we will soon be back to infrequent SF – from my point of view, not good for R!

This comes up from time to time with the MC (a guy). Once he said “making love starts in the morning when you say hello”, basically saying that you have to establish an ongoing feeling of love, care, attention, comfort (i.e. mental intimacy) before you can get to ‘physical’ intimacy. My W has also made the comment that the way I want to reconnect is via SF, as if better SF would eventually lead us to be emotionally closer. In her mind, it works the other way around – emotional connection first, SF later. Bottom line I sometimes feel like a pervert, like I am the only one thinking about and needing SF. To tell you the truth sometimes I play with the idea that I should have an A to take care of the SF so that I am more “relaxed” to work on R with my W. No need to tell you how messed up this line of thinking is. This being said I am wondering if this is not a common issue for men. I have two good male friends (same age as me) and they seem to be going through exactly the same thing. They are both very unsatisfied with the SF with their W’s (both in terms of frequency and variety), and keep joking around about having an A.

I really need to find a solution to this problem. I either have to help my W be more interested in SF so that there is less of gap between my needs and hers. Or I have to be able to handle the ‘rejection’ better. Or maybe I just need to concentrate on SF less, more on affection (etc.), and SF may then come naturally. I just don’t know what to do.

Asterix - I feel exactly the same way you do about SF - maybe even worse because my drive is very high - ridiculously high - I would truly like it everyday - and being honest, several times a day -

I have acted and felt like you for a long time about being rejected.

While it didn't solve the problem completely, the "schedule" helps tremendously - again, I suggest you try it - you have nothing to lose.

On 2/16 (see post #2993468), I indicated that my W had actually brought up the idea herself during one of our conversations. Last night, in the middle of our ‘argument’ I reminded her of what she had suggested (at the time she had proposed ‘every 3 nights’). She answered “I don’t remember saying that, I don’t remember that conversation”. So incredibly frustrating, sometimes I wonder if my W doesn’t have amnesia…Soon I will have to record our conversations so that I can play them back to her if her memory fails.

Try again, see if she'll try it. It's better than nothing.

I will bring it up again and maybe this time she will remember her own suggestion. I guess that in your case, your W wanted to do it so she had an incentive to make it work. If I am the one who suggests the schedule now, what incentive will my W have to make it work? I don’t know this all sounds so artificial.

I think she has the same incentive you have to a certain extent - try to solve at least one problem in your M.

It is artificial to a certain extent. You sort of get used to it, but that aspect of it does suck.

?!?!? Wow! That's what I start to understand lately. I really feel sorry for all of you <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Let me tell you how women feel. I have several girlfriends with kids between 3 - 7. And we used to joke about this issue - we are not interested in S in general. But we wish to be. Now - you don't want to have a wife who thinks about SF every day. This is sick. Also, if my H said this - I would feel that he is using me. I am not saying this is right but that's the fact. I wish we could find the balance - may be you can exercise instead? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> And there is nothing wrong about 'servicing' but not so often. Why don't you call 'scheduling' 'dating'?

Your MC is right - you have to start expressing your love in the morning. And make sure that you stress it out for your W that it is not just SF you want but you want it with her because she looks good, she is sexy, etc. Not only because you love her.

Another thing - from what I've read she did it because she felt lost and lonely. So you should not worry if this guy was better then you. Make her feel special and I am sure she will start to feel special.

PS: I just read my reply and I can see that I sound like I am lecturing. This is not my intention. It's just my limited English. So don't take it personally.

Maril - Thanks. I think I am probably abnormal in this regard. I do exercise and it doesn't help with that at all. It may even make it worse.

W does do some "servicing" too. That helps.

The only thing that has ever reduced my desire is W's EA. Right now, it's not what it used to be.....

On the other hand, the "schedule" has helped in that I know what to expect and when - so I don't get mad when I don't get SF.

Unfortunately I don't think you are abnormal. The longer I live the more I realize that it is what it is. Most of the guys will not say it loud. It just scares me. I guess men are from Mars. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I really don't think we are that bad - and I also really don't think all guys want it as much as me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

asterix and 193296,
I just got this joke from my gf. Cheer up. We will make it. Have to go to long boring meeting. I will try to think about SF while I am there to understand better what are you guys going through every day. (just kidding)

Subject: 7 KINDS OF SEX

The 1st kind of sex is called: Smurf Sex. This kind of sex happens when you first meet someone and you both have sex until you are blue in the face.

The 2nd kind of sex is called: Kitchen Sex. This is when you have been with your partner for a short time and you are so horny you will have sex anywhere, even in the kitchen.

The 3rd kind of sex is called: Bedroom Sex. This is when you have been with your partner for a long time. Your sex has gotten routine and you usually have sex only in your bedroom.

The 4th kind of sex is called: Hallway Sex. This is when you have been with your partner for too long. When you pass each other in the hallway you both say "screw you."

The 5th kind of sex is called: Religious Sex, which means you get Nun in the morning, Nun in the afternoon and Nun at night.

The 6th kind is called Courtroom Sex. This is when you cannot stand your wife any more. She takes you to court and screws you in front of everyone.

And last, but not least:
7th kind of sex is called: Social Security Sex. You get a little each month. But not enough to live on.

Good one Maril - thanks for turning this into a joke, it does help to laugh about it sometimes! I guess that for me I am mostly experiencing 3 (best case), 4 (sometimes since D-Day), 5 (worst case), and pretty much always feel like 7. I have not experienced 1 or 2 in many years, I wish I could at least go back to 2 (wishful thinking?)... As for 6 I hope that I will never get there.

asterix,
instead of waiting for your W to start chasing you why don't you try to melt her heart first? Little things but something very personal and unexpected. Like buying one of this stupid women magazines tonight for her like 'InTouch' or similar. Or buying a book of her favorite author. Or order something on the internet and have it delivered in her name - CD or DVD for example. Couple of weeks ago I got a parcel from the Neiman Marcus in my name and my heart sunk - I thought my H ordered something for me. Well, it was that my niece order was put in my name at some reason (we share the last name). I actually told my H about this, not complaining, just making fun of myself. Today I got the package and it was a very cute case for my new IPod. He may get lucky tonight. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

When you do something for her don't feel like a looser. I am sure that will only make her regret her A more. Last month I was in the book store and bought a book for my husband and I could see he was so touched and felt guilty and stupid about his A.