Asterix,

I won't address the triggers, others can offer you good advice. I personally would consider getting rid of those pictures if they are a trigger. But, that is your call.

I would like to address your comments about the SF issue. It is time you two worked together. Have you explained to your W that SF is an EMOTIONAL need? That it is listed as it is in Harley's books and questionaires. Have you explained that SF makes you feel closer to her emotionally?
Have you explained that her having SF with you allows you to reclaim in your mind a bit more of the marriage each time?

If you have repeat these things, if you have not it is time to state them clearly. However, when you do, acknowledge that she feels pressured. But, here is the point does she feel pressured emotionally or physically? Would she feel better if you turned things over to her and let her address the SF need and make it her responsibility? Would she better if YOU had the say on when and how? OR, would she feel better if "not tonight" is an exceptible answer?

If the latter is her choice there are ways for her to do this WITHOUT rejecting you. One simple way is for HER to schedule at that point when the next time will be. You don't feel rejected when she is on her period do you? Why? You know this is natural and normal. So why not other times? Because you don't know if "not tonight" means I really really don't want to have SF with YOU, or it means I am a bit tired and would really enjoy it a bit later, perhaps tomorrow morning, or next Tues. or whatever.

She needs to understand that "not tonight" with no suggestion of a replacement time, sounds like a flat rejection and given the circumstances has implications that are not very pleasant for you or her.

If she felt she could "just say no" but not reject you, then there would be less pressure. You don't have to apologize for loving her, for wanting to be emotionally and physically connected with her, and to do what nature designed us to do.

The real issue is the message she has been sending by handling things the way she has versus in a way that you both accept.

Does this make sense? I hope so.

God Bless,

JL

Yes I realize that it’s all in my head. I feel that I have done a little bit better at managing my emotions and preventing triggers from reaching their ‘full potential’ but I am still struggling. When my thoughts focus on the physical aspects of the A they are especially difficult to manage. I feel so much resentment and ‘disgust’ for my W when that happens that it makes it impossible for me to even get physically close to her. So I keep my distance. Yesterday the trigger was so bad that it basically affected me all day. I ended up going though her PDA, her email system, her cell phone records, and through her work archives (paperwork she brought back with her right after the PA). I don’t know what I was looking for: some clue maybe that she was still lying to me, something that would keep ‘vilifying her’, something that would justify my emotions, something that I could use to throw the A in her face again – I just don’t know. Sometimes I wonder if this is not borderline OCD (obsessive compulsive disorder).

Obviously my W can sense that something is wrong and she keeps her distance as well. She asked me how things were going, what was bothering me, etc. She also told me that she was disappointed that we weren’t having a better weekend – she was working on Sat. and was hoping that we could have a good time together on Sun. That didn’t happen.

We are doing our best to discuss this issue. I have indeed told her that this was an emotional need of mine, and an important one. This also came through when we each filled out the EN questionnaire a couple of weeks after D-Day. She knows that SF makes me more relaxed, more affectionate, more patient, etc. She also knows that I do a 180 if I don’t get SF (it is her fear/discomfort with these negative side effects that make her feel ‘pressured to perform’). This being said I don’t think that I was as eloquent as you are in explaining the importance of SF. I like the words you use like “reclaiming in your mind a bit more of the marriage each time”.

I am not sure I understand the question. Obviously I don’t “force” her so she shouldn’t feel pressured physically. I think that the pressure is at an emotional level, she is basically worried about my behavior around her if I don’t get SF.

That’s an interesting suggestion but I am not sure that I understand that it would imply. Note that, IMO, she already decides “when” we will have SF. She knows that I am “ready to go” all the time so SF is really up to her. I just don’t know if she sees SF as a ‘marital duty’ or ‘marital responsibility’ – she basically feels that it should only happen if we both feel like doing it, which really translates to when she feels like doing it. She clearly stated that she doesn’t fell good when she ‘forces herself’ – and to tell you the truth I don’t like the sound of that either.

I doubt it – if it was up to me it would probably be every night and her SF appetite is not that high. Also see the comment above about ‘forcing herself’, that just wouldn’t work. She would probably feel like a piece of trash, an object that I am just using to satisfy my needs.

Yes this is it. That’s really what she wants. She says that there are some days when she feels like having SF with me and other days where she just doesn’t (for whatever reason). She feels that I have a right to ask to have SF (and she supposedly doesn’t have a problem with that) but she should have the right to say ‘no’ without having to face all the negative consequences. She would basically want her ‘no’ to indeed be an acceptable answer.

Sounds good to me but I doubt that she would feel comfortable committing to when the next time will be. This being said I do think that the way she communicates the ‘no’ could be improved and I have already told her that. The problem today is that the ‘no’ is associated with stress and anxiety. She is probably worried about the negative consequences and I see her body language changing. She will have a tendency to distance herself after the ‘no’, roll to her side of the bed, etc. In fact what could help me is for her to be extremely affectionate and tender after the ‘no’, saying something like ‘honey, I love you very much but I just don’t feel like SF tonight, can we just cuddle, can I just hold you?” – you know, something like that. Something that ‘lets me down easy’, where maybe the absence of SF can be replaced with warmth, affection, and care for my feelings. Today I feel that she says ‘no’ and just lets me deal with the negative feelings. I don’t know if it’s fair to expect her to manage my emotions and insecurities.

Yes you are right; this is a big issue right now. I think that the solution can indeed be found in better communications. If she can find a way to ‘let me down easy’ I think that I would do a much better job at handling the ‘no’ and no longer perceive it as ‘rejection.

Asterix - The only way I know there was no PA is the phone calls I have heard - from those, I am as sure as I can be there was no PA. But you know, you are totally right - it's just different shades of bad.

W has tried to minimize it exactly as you descrribed. I have told OMW and she didn't like it either, although I can't really tell where she is.

I have demanded NC.

Thanks.

193296 – Glad to hear that there was no PA in your case. I am sure that an EA is no walk in the park either for the BS but at least there are just certain triggers you have to deal with. Telling the OMW and demanding NC was the right thing to do.

How do you define an EA in your case, and more specifically where does the ‘friendship’ end and the EA begin? I guess that it’s all in the definition of the boundaries. Which boundaries did you W cross? Just curious.

It's hard to say specifically, really it's more of "you know it when you see it".

In my case it was lengthy phone calls (hours), sneaking around, lying about it on more than one occasion and just the subjects they were talking about - and they did hold hands once.

if you look at descriptions of EA's in books, this site etc. - W's EA fits it pretty easily. I think you are right in that a PA may be worse only in the triggers and things to think about - I'll never believe that W's EA would not have led to a PA if I hadn't intervened when I did - I guess it still could actually.

193296 - I get the feeling, through your posts, that the EA is still not over or at least that NC is not being respected. Is that right? Is that why you feel that a PA is still possible?

In any case it’s clear that whether we are talking about EA or PA we still share the common element of ‘deception’. IMO it is this deception and betrayal that are also very difficult to handle because this is a facet of my W’s personality that I don’t recognize at all. I just never thought that my W would be able to do the things she did and still hide it from me for 7 months after the PA. I sincere hope that this was just a temporary moment of ‘insanity’ and that this is not a long lasting trait of character. The fact that she eventually came clean about the A and is trying her best to make our R successful tell me that this is not who she really is, at least that’s what I would like to believe.

Still I really wonder if we are going to be successful in the end – more specifically I really wonder if “I” will be able to move on.

Asterix,

I my mind, I beleive that you should have this WHOLE discussion with her and offer her ALL of the alternatives discussed here and more if you have more. The solicit her ideas for how to deal with this. Repeat what I said about your feelings and such.

You see you are making a DJ if you think you know what she wants or thinks. Speak with her, but offer her lots of options even if some of them seem really off the wall. Discuss how you and she would implement each and every one. Discuss the strong points, the weak points, the show stoppers.

As you do this you two will learn to open up and begin to look for solutions rather than things that do not work. She does have an obligation to meet your needs it is part of what she vowed. We ALL know she would be happier if the why to meet them was ENTHUSIASTICALLY agreed upon by both of you.

You don't realize this, but IF you will bring her into these discussions in a calm, fair and friendly way, where the goal is to make BOTH of you happy, you will begin to remove some of the barriers she has erected. It will also help you overcome your anger and other triggers.

Whether you like the ideas I had or not, discuss them with her, and solicit her ideas. NO ONE LIKES TO BE REJECTED. She does not, you do not. So the issue of handling the sex especially during this healing process is very very important to both of you.

You need a lot of reassurance on many levels discuss this with her. Your goal???? It is to heal and feel comfortable in your marriage again. But, you have an additional goal and that is to make her comfortable and feel good in your marriage again.

Do you see the plot here? It is for you two to really learn how to negotiate and the first part is to put ANY and ALL ideas on the table even IF neither of you like them. Why? Often times when discussing why neither of you like something you will learn something about one another,and it will help in discussing the options that might appeal to one or both of you.

God Bless,

JL

Asterix - I really don't think the EA is still going on - but I have been wrong before so I am still leery. I do think NC has been maintained, but I was wrong about that before too.

One bad thing about an EA is they can try to say they were just friends and still are. That's BS, of course, but they can still try (be pretty hard if PA).

I feel the same as you about the rest of what you said. Not sure I can move on either.

Interesting way to put it, I never looked at it like that – and I am not sure she does either. I guess that my goal is to make her ‘want to’, rather than ‘have to’.

I do get your message about ‘joint agreement’, I know that this is where we need to get to, and I also know that we haven’t reached it yet. We will keep trying with the suggestions that you offer: basically brainstorming, and hopefully finding a solution that we both ‘enthusiastically’ agree to.

Yes I do. I feel especially insecure since D-Day. A stream of ‘no’ day after day doesn’t do much to reassure me…

I perfectly understand your doubts about the EA and NC. When you have been burnt once it’s hard to believe again. In my case, and even though I have absolutely no evidence or even ‘reason to believe’ that they are still in contact, I still check her email system, her PDA, her voice mail, and everything I can get my hands on. Sometime I even think that I am still looking for evidence of the A, even though she has admitted to the A – strange! I am sure that a shrink would be able to put a label on this behavior…
I just know that this behavior of mine is not ‘healthy’, it doesn’t make me feel good and it keeps me firmly stuck in the A. At the same time it’s not yet possible for me to trust her again and give her the benefit of the doubt. With time I am sure that it will improve.

Asterix - I do exactly the same thing - check everything I can. That is what made me suspicious about contact. Nothing concrete, but I heard a few things that tipped me off - turned out I was right. Nothing particularly major, but it had been going on for 2 more mos. without my knowing it - I am back to square one (or really square negative) - of course, they were just friends....

I hope you are right about time helping - I think it was for me before I started all over.

As far as my W's A is concerned I was suspicious before the PA took place, and between the PA and D-Day - this spanned probably close to 9 months. I must have been sensing something because I don't have a suspicious nature. I think that when you have lived with someone for many years you can detect little changes in their behavior and a bunch of alarms go off at an subconscious level. While I acknowledged those alarms (and started checking her voice mail regularly for instance), I was doing it more out of due diligence than anything else. I still refused to believe that an A could really be going on. I just thoughts that my W was incapable of such acts. I spent those 9 months thinking that I was overreacting and being paranoid. The fact that my W denied the A several times before D-Day reinforced a lot of those feelings (but still I knew that something wasn't right, and that's why I keep confronting her about the A until D-Day).

Asterix-

Hi there. Would it be possible for you to sit down and talk to her in this way- you tell her how many times you'd like to have SF per week. Then she says how many times she'd like to have it per week. Should your frequency be alot higher- such as everyday- when hers is two times per week see if you can both compromise and get to a number that's reasonable. In my marriage, I would prefer SF three times a week or more. My husband would prefer twice so we negotiate so that we're both pleased. Some weeks it's three and some weeks it's two.

My husband had a problem with rejection in his prior marriage. He came up with the idea that each partner should have a candle on their side of the bed. If one partner is interested they light their candle. If the other partner comes through the room and sees the candle is lit- they have the option to either blow out the candle or to light theirs. If they light their's then their partner knows that night they will have SF. The catch is, if your partner blows out your candle you may not relight it that day.

I thought this was a great idea but we went a bit further. We saw a cute pillow on our honeymoon that says Tonight on one side and Not Tonight on the other. So we use that to let the other know we're interested in the same fashion.

asterix,
I feel and behave the same way. Should I ask my WH to put a label on that since he is a freaking shrink? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

About your trip to Europe. Where do you go? I just thought of the picnic in Versailles garden on warm Sunday in May when the fountains are working and music is playing. Both of you would love that if you never went there.

Our communications around SF simply suck and they end up being a great source of stress and anxiety for both of us. Yesterday we had a great evening together, when we got to bed my W even thanked me for the evening and told me that she had a lot of fun. We talk a little while longer then I get close to her and I start caressing her. At that time she stops my hand and tells me that she feels ticklish. Her skin is apparently very sensitive when she is tired. Bottom line I can’t touch her (other than holding her hand) – hard to initiate SF when you cannot touch someone. She makes not other comment and I see that she is trying to asleep. This morning as we wake up I roll next to her and I caress her, give her a kiss, and tell her that I want to make love to her. I get a plain ‘no’. I then ask if we can plan to have SF tonight and she simply says ‘I don’t know if I will feel like it tonight’ – she then gets up and gets ready for work. No other words about it. I just wish that even if she didn’t feel like having SF she could communicate that with me a little better, let me down easy, and still give me some reassurances. I feel so insecure at this time and the way she says ‘no’ makes it a lot worse for me. Another side effect is that I am now so used to the ‘no’ that my requests for SF are stressed, sad, defeatist, almost negative. Bottom line I am gun shy.

Coachswife – I will initiate the conversation about SF frequency with her. If behavior predicts, I assume that she will tell me that she can’t answer that question, that there isn’t a ‘number’ that she feels comfortable with. I find that my W’s SF appetite is fairly low, I am sure that she would feel comfortable with once a week, maybe even less than that (once every couple of weeks). My W has also said many times that she can’t have SF if she doesn’t feel an ‘emotional connection’ – bottom line if we have had a bad day or if I have been distant, stressed, and negative – then SF is out of question. My W’s energy level in the evening really drops (she is a morning person). The first thought in her mind when she gets to bed is ‘sleep’, not intimacy/SF. Once again these are my perceptions – I think that they are right but I will pop the question just in case.

I like your suggestions about the pillow, the candles, etc. – ways to communicate the ‘mood’. I really think that we need to try something like that. It would probably make it easier for her to communicate her mood and it would make it easier for me to manage my own expectations. I will propose this approach and see how she reacts.

Maril – I will be going to Germany for work. This being said I have been to Versailles (actually French is my native language) and I am familiar with the location you mention.

i know finding out about an affair can throw you for a loop.but wanting to know specific sex acts performed during the course of an affair can be more than you need to know.your mind might want to know but your heart doesn't.i am so sorry you are going through this.i know it hurts.i hope you find the reason you two got together in the first place and can rekindle the flame.

Asterix -

Through all of this it seems to me like you're the one doing all the work. All the reading, all the thinking, all the growing, all the changing, all the talking. Your posts don't seem to indicate any real change in your W's behavior. I apologize if this seems like a DJ but I call 'em as I see 'em.

Obviously both of you created the environment which made it possible for her to have an A. Her actually stepping out and having the A was 100% her choice. You are working hard to change the environment of your marriage. What is your W doing differently?

Bitbucket – Interesting question. I think that my W and I have a very different way of handling the situation. My personality lends me to a lot of introspection, a lot of thinking about the A, its meaning, its causes, and its ramifications. I do a lot of reading and a lot of posting on this site. The type of job I do also enables me to do that as I am sitting in front of a computer for most of the day.

Since D-Day I have made some changes in my behavior. For instance since early April I no longer ask questions about the details of the A. This was a big challenge for me but it was clear that the constant questioning was hurting my W and was also counterproductive in terms of R. Other than that my emotions are still very unstable, although there has been a slight trend of improvement.

In a lot of ways I think that it is true that I have taken the ‘driver seat’ in this R – I guess that someone always has to. I initiated MC, made the appointments, etc. I bought the book and asked my W to read it. But I think that a lot of those differences are due to differences in our personality and not necessary differences in our commitment to R.

Actually I would say that my W’s behavior has changed a lot. First and foremost, she told me the truth about the A. She put an end to the deception and the lying that had been going on for several months. She also tries to be very positive and focused on the present and future. She is trying to bring a sense of normalcy back in our M since D-Day. She has also been very supportive and very patient with my mood swings. She comes with me to MC every week and she sees value in it. She is really the one who brings positivity in our R.

Asterix - I can't tell you how familiar your SF situation sounds to me - it is very similar to mine. That being said, when you do talk to her about it, think about suggesting a schedule. As we've discussed before, it's not perfect, but I think it is better than where you are now.

Gosh, what is it about sex drives not being in sync? Here I am wishing my H would want it more and here you guys are thinking the same things about your wives!!

I'm glad my ideas were of some value to you. Here's a thought- do not bring up te conversation when you're both tired, angry or when she's just turned you down for SF. Make it a pleasant conversation about how you guys can each meet each other's mutual need.

I can't remember Asterix but are you helping her with the kids and house so that she is more energetic at night? What time do you guys go to bed? It might be helpful to go to bed earlier??? My husband and I try to go to our room at nine oclock- as soon as we tuck the kids in.