Actually I wrote and emailed a letter to my W this morning going over the ‘proposal’. I find that it is difficult for me to discuss these issues with her face to face. Writing it down enabled me to structure my thinking and make sure that I covered all the points.

I started the letter by telling her that I loved her and that I wanted to help in improving our relationship and our M. I then clearly stated my dissatisfaction with SF today. I also mentioned the importance that SF has for me (EN), and what it means to me (specifically in this post D-Day period).

I then acknowledged her perspective, specifically as it relates to the need to feel ‘emotionally connected’ as a pre-condition for SF. I indicated that I was also eager to regain the complicity and closeness that we once had. I do feel that as the emotional connection is re-established, a lot of the issues associated with SF will subside. But what we need “right now” is an interim plan, i.e. an approach to SF that we can follow as we are working on our R. It’s basically a plan to help me out, and consequently help her out.

For this interim plan I made two suggestions and two requests. The first suggestion was “coachswife”’s idea about the candle or some other indicator of the ‘mood’. Here I see a few advantages: first better communication about her ‘mood’ which will help me manage my expectations and hopefully mitigate those feelings of rejection. The second suggestion was to schedule SF, with the twist of making the SF-days a bit extra special for us (romance, massage, date, etc.). Here I see the same advantages as coachswife’s idea with the additional benefit of a certain commitment to ‘level of service’ or frequency in SF. Indeed with coachswife’s idea, the mood indicator could very well be ‘off’ all the time which wouldn’t address the issue at all.

My first request was for her to open up about her SF needs, just to make sure that she feels free to let me know what works for her and what doesn’t, what she wished I did or didn’t do when it came to SF. The second request was to ‘let me down easy’ when she didn’t want SF and work on her delivery of the ‘no’. I emailed the letter this morning. I hope that she will have time to read it today and get back to me.

Seams like you guys going to have a nice talk about it all soon <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Make sure you tell her you also need affection, and that not always means SF.

Believe me, it helps.

Just make sure that you cuddle her and tell her just that, I just need/want some affection, not SF.

You might be very often surprised by the times she'll be the one starting SF after those "only affection" moments.

Quote:
__________
My first request was for her to open up about her SF needs, just to make sure that she feels free to let me know what works for her and what doesn’t, what she wished I did or didn’t do when it came to SF.
____________________

And this is the key and probably your BIG step.
Once you two can discuss each ones's SF needs instead of "there's SF or not" you'll have half problem solved, and for a woman it only shows her, you want to please her, not "use her".

You might need to help her open up. Give her ideas and suggestions, tell her your own fantasies, give her time and she'll tell you her's.

Did you check that site? www.women.com ?
Good luck

Last night ended being a complete fiasco. My W read the letter I wrote and the only thing she had to say is that she couldn’t commit to an SF schedule. She basically says that it’s not something that she can force herself to do. She used the analogy of ‘Indian food’ – she says sometimes you want it and sometimes you don’t, and when you don’t, you can’t convince yourself that you do. WTF? She also said that she was worried that she couldn’t meet my SF needs. She didn’t really speak about any other part of the letter and I got the feeling that she had only given it a quick read. The ‘scheduling of SF’ is the thing that caught her attention and that’s the only thing she mentioned. I also think that it was the wrong time (late at night) and the wrong ‘mood’ (distant, stressed, and tired) to discuss something like that, so it didn’t go anywhere. I was frustrated that I had invested so much time in thinking about this problem, writing her a letter, etc. – and the only thing she did was to tell me that one of the suggestions wouldn’t work for her. She didn’t come back with any counter-offers.

Last night I was pretty ‘negative’ about our R. I started to realize that our M had been going downhill for quite some time already. I have not really enjoyed being around my W, I have been frustrated by the lack of SF, and I have had very little patience with her. On the other hand she has felt that she could never do anything right around me, that everything she would do would either be taken the wrong way, would frustrate me, or would anger me. As a result our relationship has suffered: we have hurt each other (emotionally) and neglected each other. I don’t know if it’s fair for me to say that but I actually feel responsible for that deterioration in our M. I know that ‘it takes two to tango’ but I think that I was the ‘difficult’ one: demanding, dissatisfied, frustrated, angry, and selfish. Now that I think about it, none of that has changed since D-Day – it has actually gotten worse. And despite that I am basically expecting her to do a 180 and be affectionate, sexual, and giving. That’s just not going to happen. As I have told the MC, I feel that I am by far the biggest risk in this R and I feel that in many ways the outcome will be heavily based on my own behavior and ability to change. I have to start accepting those responsibilities if I want this M to recover. That’s easier said than done because of the ambivalence of my feelings for my W, especially when I have triggers about the PA. It’s hard to get over the fact that your own W was intimate with an OM – the thought is simply sickening and so painful.

Maybe I should just simplify things right now. I was thinking that I should stop focusing on SF and let things happen naturally. I can’t force SF, I can’t demand SF, I can’t convince her to have SF – that just doesn’t work – and if anything it will add stress and frustration to a situation that is already complex enough. Instead I should focus on re-establishing the friendship bound with my W, learning to simply enjoy ‘togetherness’, getting simple pleasures from her company without automatically assuming that ‘being nice’ should be rewarded with SF. I should focus on giving her attention and rediscovering in her character and personality all the things that I first fell in love with. Hopefully she will rediscover the same things in me as well. It’s funny that this is what she has been telling me all along but I think that for the first time I really understand and buy into what she meant. Ben Franklin defined insanity as doing the same things and expecting a different result. I think that it’s time for me to make some significant and lasting changes in my behavior.

Asterix - As I have told you before, I have been exactly where you are - and still am. My M deteriorated also largely because of my frustration with SF - and my reaction to perceived rejection.

You are right, I think, in that you do need to change yourself as you described. I have been trying very hard to do that myself for the past 3 mos. I don't know if it is working, or if it ever will work, but I do know that she has noticed the effort (I am also to the point where I will continue to try and would like it to work out, but I don't really care if it doesn't either).

The frustrating thing is that your W may not always help you or respond like she should - that makes it very hard - not just with SF, but SF is part of it.

So, I think you need to try, if you want to more forward. On the other hand, don't blame yourself for everything. You are only responsible for 50% of your M. Do what you can do, but don't beat yourself up.

I'm sorry that my suggestions didn't help! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

The issue with the SF for you is also regaining what you lost and what you feel that OM took away, I believe. Sort of like marking your territory and proving that you're more desireable etc. All normal to me, and probably won't last but you're just recovering. I'm not sure why she doesn't get that??

I think you're making excellent progress in your disection of what you need to do as far as learning your wife and discovering her again. As a woman, if my husband said those things to me it would sound wonderful to me.

Yes, she needs to feel emotionally intimate with you to have sex, I get that. The thing is, though, it should be her that controls SF- and she is in the position to do that now. She's not looking at it as something mutually to be shared between two loving adults. It's more of her holding something that you want. That's unfortunate and I'm only hoping that your rediscovering her emotionally might perhaps help that.

I certainly don't believe that alot of women get it as far as how important SF is to a man. We don't understand it, and it's taken me many years and a divorce to learn it.

I just had a very nice chat with my W on the phone over lunch. I apologized for last night. I also told her that I had a little moment of clarity this morning regarding our relationship. I told her that my focus on SF was probably the wrong way to approach R, like trying to harvest the fruit before planting the seeds. Instead I told her that I wanted to refocus on our friendship and the more fundamental bond that we use to have (and still have fragments of). I told her that I wanted us to learn to enjoy each other’s company again, and become each other’s primary source of support and companionship. This was like music to her ears and she said that she agreed with me and that it sounded like a good plan. In her heart she knows that I am not trying to hurt her on purpose, she also knows that I want to rebuild our complicity and friendship but she realizes that it’s difficult for me. It’s difficult because of the ambivalence of my feelings towards her and the instability of my moods. Yet my apologies and my explanation of this moment of clarity made her feel good. After that we engaged in a nice little conversation about the kids and the activities for the week. It feels so good to have a normal chat with her, about life, about good things, about positive things. I miss my friend, my companion, and I hope that I can find her again.

Yes that’s a big test of our resolve to work towards R. We may not always get the response, support, or encouragement that we need, when we need it, and in the way that we need it. I anticipate that and I know that it’s not going to be easy on me. But in a way I am also tired to always see SF as the ultimate reward for good behavior. I am tired of waiting for the evening to get my “prize”. I no longer want to be nice just in the hope of getting SF because then, if I don’t get SF I am frustrated, angry, disappointed, and demotivated. I want to be nice for the sake of being nice, for the sake of making my W happy. I want to enjoy her company throughout the day, not just at night anxiously waiting for the right time to make my move. I want to ‘plant those seeds’ and hopefully SF will come naturally. It’s maybe by defocusing on SF that we enable SF.

Yeah I know…My W has accepted her responsibilities for the A and I would like to accept my responsibilities for my share of the M. It takes humility to change.

Yes that’s probably part of it. Aside from pure sex drive, there are probably a lot of insecurities behind this need for SF. It’s definitely a way to be reassured as a man and a lover, and reclaiming what was taken away from me. But once again I see this focus on SF as doing more harm than good. I am just focusing on a ‘symptom’ not the root cause.

Two of my best buddies are going exactly through the same thing with their W’s right now. One of them has basically given up on even asking his W for SF – their love making is few and far in between and it seems that he has learned to manage his expectations accordingly. If you look at the ‘7 kinds of sex’ post above, he tells me that at best it was a type-3 (bedroom). It seems that SF was never very passionate between them. Another buddy of mine is on the same boat. He literally begs his W for SF every night. He keeps trying but without much enthusiasm. He has the feeling that his W ‘throws him a bone’ every now and then but that she is not into it. The interesting part is that both of these guys admit being vulnerable to A because of it. They say that they love their W’s and their kids but this is such an important unmet EN for them that they are thinking about risking it all to get some satisfaction. So far they have been able to resist the temptation but I don’t think that their W’s understand the criticality of this risk.

They most certainly do not. Women do not understand the testosterone behind those needs and how great it is for a man- just as emotional needs are THAT important to a woman. I'm not saying that women do not have affairs for sex- but I would think the majority is not for that. I know mine wasn't. Funny thing is is that my exhusband could have certainly have had an affair due to his sexual needs not being met- but because he was so reluctant to even attempt to meet my emotional needs I no longer cared.
That is what I mean about the competition and seeing who gives in first. That just sets up a vicious cycle that no one wins at.

What really changed my thinking on the issue is the reading that I've done here and on other sites. I also had the benefit of hearing my now husbands story about how his first wife rejected him continually for SF and how that made him feel (she was having an affair at the time) When he put it in a way that I could connect emotionally to it made a huge difference to me. My exhusband always made it about what he wanted that I wasn't giving him rather than the emotions that went behind it and what it meant to him on that level.

Hi,

Recently I found out that my husband had an sexual encounter with a young lady that he met on his job. However, it has been months since they have worked together and wondered why that relationship continued in the first place. On several occasions I asked him were they involved with each other and he denied it each time. I also had previously told him that I felt that he was emotionally attached to her which made him furious. I asked him on numerous occasions to discontinue but he did not. Then about a month and a half ago he said that relationship turned intimate one night and that it only happened that one time and that they both decided not to see each other. However, they continued to send each other text messages and emails. It was not until two weeks ago that he decided to tell me. We agreed on going to counseling to recociled our marriage and now she is saying that she is pregnant and wants to have this child. She continues to call and text him daily and he accepts them from. I told him that I disapprove of them communicating so much. Am I wrong for feeling this way? I feel if she is planning on keeping this child that she should only contacting him en reference to that child and nothing us. Not her problems at home or anything! We have two children of our own: a two year and a 9 nine month old. He has a 12 year son (prior to our relationship). This whole situation is out of character for him I guess thats why I am in shock. I Love my husband but, I don't want to be anyones fool.

Mdwife – First I would recommend that you start a separate thread to discuss these issues. It will make it easier for you to see the replies to your post and keep them all in the same location. This being said I want to say that I am really sorry to hear about your story and I understand how shocked, angry, and sad you must feel at this time. The news of a child, allegedly conceived during the A, adds a layer of complexity to the R. I have to admit that I am not familiar with such situations but I am sure that other members of MB will be able to assist you. I guess that first of all the paternity needs to be established. Paternity tests are common place now and before you get too worried about this pregnancy I would recommend that this be clarified. Until such paternity is established you should demand absolute NC between your H and the OM – their contacts are only prolonging their relationship and this is not healthy for your M.

This past evening was quiet and uneventful, probably because my W worked the night shift so I was just with the kids at home. I ended up watching some TV and staying up late. Speaking about TV, it amazes me to see how much Hollywood trivializes A’s. There are literally everywhere. There was a “Sex in the City” rerun last night where it shows a WH having a passionate PA with one of the main character. The show makes it sound perfectly normal. In one of the last episodes of the Sopranos, we see Tony flirting with a real estate agent, eventually leading to a ‘make-out’ session in her apartment. The interesting part is that Tony (who has had numerous PA’s before) finally feels some guilt and leaves her apartment before it goes any further. Then yesterday I am listening to the radio. One of the radio host said that when she was a freshman in College, her and her dorm roommates ran a contest for a year trying to see how many marriages they could break. They would go to bars, flirt with married men, go as far as having SF with them, and then call their W’s and tell them what happened. In a year, she reported that they had broken ‘dozens’ of marriages. When you consider the pain that A’s cause on BS and their families, they should literally be considered as forms of ‘abuse’ or ‘cruel and unusual punishment’.

Asterix - You are right about TV. I don't see how those people can trivialize A's like they do. Even before it happened to me, I hated to see it on TV, movies etc. I am not really "Mr. Conservative" when it comes to TV and movies (i.e. don't mind blood, guts, nudity etc.), but A's always bothered me. I guess it's because in most respects, it's the ultimate betrayal. I can't imagine any betrayal that's worse. Maybe there is, but I can't imagine it.

We had another MC session last night. As usual no direct discussion about the A itself but I have come to expect that. This time most of the discussions were focused on my W. That’s a good thing because I have the feeling that I have done most of the talking so far.

My W spoke a lot about my ‘ups and downs’ or the emotional roller-coaster I have been on since D-Day. She said that my moods are very unpredictable and it makes it difficult for her to get close to me or be constantly affectionate and giving (as I want her to be). She often doesn’t know what she is going to get when we are together: affection or anger.

We also spend a good chunk of time discussing our relationship before the A. She perceived that I was ‘disinterested’ in her. She felt that I had ‘emotionally left her’ at the time. She also explained that I always seemed very critical of her that she had the feeling that she was never doing or saying the right thing, that I was very frustrated and discontent with her. She didn’t get the feeling that I was happy to be with her. She was lonely and sad. Interestingly none of this was explicitly presented as causes for the A. Actually even if there hadn’t been an A, we could have had the exact same conversation. We talked about our personalities, our differences, but also our complementarity.

The SF issues came up briefly. I got a chance to explain my feelings of rejection, my need for reassurance, the emotional needs that it satisfies, etc. My W obviously expressed her point of view, mainly the fact that it was difficult for her to be physically close when there was so much emotional turmoil and stress between us. I also spoke about my ‘moment of clarity’, realizing that I needed to refocus my attention and energy towards friendship, companionship, ‘togetherness’ with my W. “Planting the seeds before trying to harvest the fruit” – developing all the other forms of intimacy first (emotional, etc) and then let sexual intimacy happen naturally. The MC though that it was a “good” epiphany and obviously approved of the approach – so did my W. At this time I hope that I will be able to do this with my testosterone banging on the door…
As for the feeling of rejection, the MC suggested that I let my W initiate SF – like that I wouldn’t feel ‘rejected’. I guess that I could do that but part of me wonders how often that will happen.

The rest of the evening went well. We had a good chat (not about the A or MC) on the way back home. At night we were both pretty tired. My W hugged me and said that she was really sorry that I had to go through all this. That was a nice moment.

This is probably my last post for a few days as we are heading for Europe. The weekend has been super-crappy so far despite the fact that it started well on Friday night. Friday night we went to a function organized by her employer. I was on my best behavior: social, funny, upbeat, etc. On the way back home she was already telling me that she couldn’t wait to be comfy in her pajamas and fall asleep. I took it to mean that there was no SF on the horizon and my mood started to get darker. We got home and as predicted she got ready for bed and fell asleep quickly.

Saturday I was pretty distant, we didn’t talk much and didn’t do much together. I was in a rotten mood probably still due to my ‘disappointment’ on Friday night. During the afternoon I tried to be nicer, gave her a hug and asked her for a peck on the lips, to which she said ‘no’. As she said no to the kiss a big black cloud came into my thoughts. I felt so rejected again, so unattractive, literally repulsive. The rest of the day went down hill from there. At night I started to make comments about the A – saying how maybe I should call the OM and ask him for pointers on how to be attractive to her – because obviously it worked for him but it’s not working for me. I told her that I felt so unattractive and repulsive around her. She would respond things like “I love you, I care for you, I desire you, etc” but I kept telling her that her behavior didn’t demonstrate those feelings – that I felt ugly and unattractive to her. She would then say that it was impossible for her to feel ‘sexual’ towards me if she felt that I was angry, distant, and unpredictable. She was getting pretty upset during that conversation and we barely spoke for the rest of the night.

This Sunday morning was pretty much the same thing. When she had the PA I noticed that she had taken some ‘sexy underwear’ with her on her trip. A few weeks ago when I had confronted her about that, asking her if she had planned the SF with the OM, she would always say that she hadn’t planned it (she still confirms that to this day) and that she didn’t remember picking those out specifically. As she was packing for our trip to Europe I noticed that she hadn’t packed anything sexy at well, just plain cotton underwear. That triggered me big time and I started asking her why she wasn’t taking sexy stuff with her like she had during the PA. She wouldn’t really answer anything. Eventually she said that she probably picked them out at the time ‘because she felt sexy’. At those words I literally exploded. I threw a pile of her underwear in the air and I went to the bathroom to take my shower. We haven’t spoken much since then.

So that’s basically where I stand right now. I have no idea how this trip is going to go. My expectations are at rock bottom. That’s all for now folks, I might try to write something up when I am over there. If not, you will hear back from me when I get back. Please pray for us.

Asterix,

I know this is going to sound harsh. I also know you did not have the affair. But, when is it going to get into your thick head that your H has NO sexual desire for you? When?

You don't have to keep looking for clues such as what she is packing. You simply have to listen to her. She has stated that she has no interest in you sexually. It is time to ACCEPT that. No need to talk to her about it, no need to EXPECT IT on Fri night. NO need to check her underwear drawer. SHE DOES NOT WANT TO HAVE SEX WITH YOU.

Got it? If not get it. The only issues left to be determined is how are you going to deal with this FACT. You can continue to treat her well as you would a wife, and in a manner a wife deserves. You can decide to end the marriage. YOu can decide to give her the cold shoulder, which will make sure that she is willing to divorce you.

So many things you can do, some of them are even good and not destructive, but GET IT THROUGH YOUR THICK HEAD SHE DOES NOT WANT TO HAVE SEX WITH YOU. No amount of expectation, discussion, cohersion is going to change that. You know what may change it, but you refuse to do that.

WAKE UP BOY! The train is leaving and you are still standing at the station looking for an airplane.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

I disagree. I think she does want to have sex with him but obviously he needs it more often than she does. More than likely it's his withdrawing from her and acting ugly when he is told "Not tonight" is what makes her turn from him.

Your actions were AO's Asterix. You need to learn how to curb those.

Little update from the road. Things kind of got ugly at the airport as we were waiting for the plane. My W was pretty much crying the whole time and she couldn’t stop, she was really hurt about the way I had treated her earlier. She told me that she couldn’t go on like that and couldn’t stand being treated that way. I profusely apologized for my behavior and focused on being very nice and very affectionate with her during the trip – it took a while (it’s a good thing that those transatlantic flights are over 9 hour long) but she eventually started to feel better and we had a pretty good flight together. Our first day in Germany was great. We talk to each other a lot, we took a long walk, we had a couple of wonderful meals – basically we had a great time together – and guess what…we had SF twice on the first day! So Just Learning, I disagree with you that my W just doesn’t want to have SF with me. She does, but as coachswife said just not as often as I do (actually coachswife’s post is a perfect summary of the current situation). There lies my challenge as I have a hard time dealing with the ‘not tonight’. At this point it triggers me and it worries my W as my behavior is often unpredictable in those cases.

I would LOVE to go to Germany someday. Never been out of this hemisphere. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Where all are you going? I thought you mentioned Versailles but can't remember.

Glad to hear things are trending up for you.

I say anger on your part is normal, healthy, and expected, given what your wife has put you through. It's what you *do* with that anger that is what shows up to your wife - do you get mad and throw a tantrum? Pout and sulk? Suck it up and internalize it until you explode later? Walk around the block until you've walked it off?

Or can you calmly explain to your wife that a trigger has been pulled, and that you need a little bit of extra support and understanding right now? BS's *will* trigger, and the FWS needs to be supportive. After all, they are the ones who had the A and created the triggers in the first place. They should *not* get the luxury of "let's just put it all behind us and move forward". You will trigger for months or years, and your W needs to understand her role in having created that.

Regarding SF - your W sounds a bit like mine. At home it's hard to get her enthused about SF due to tiredness and being surrounded by routine. When we go to a hotel (without our son) she turns into a tiger.

Anyway, have a great trip!

You have to be VERY patient. It takes time.

It's going to be a while until she realizes/believes that you just want a kiss and just a kiss and that it doesn't means SF.

Just be affectionate without really expecting SF. (and don't really expect it) And dont forget this fase mith take a looonnng time.Depends on how much time you have together.

She really needs to feel that you can control your desire.
She really needs to feel that you can be trully afectionate without expecting SF.
That you really love her and that you're such a great man that you can control it. Belive me women love it. (sounds like they enjoy torturing men... but it isn't, it's just that for women SF is strongly emotional)

Don't think about the OM or what happened. She was living an higly emotional fantasy and probably not even enjoyed the experience but it was just part of the game, of the excitment of the whole out of reality situation.

And never mention the A when you're upset about the "not tonight".

Don't become distant when there's no SF. This is keeping the cycle you want to get out from.

Yesterday my W pretty much spent the whole day at the hotel, resting, watching some movies, doing some crosswords – she needed the rest and I am glad that she had a quiet day – given her heavy work schedule when we are back home this was truly a nice break for her. When I got back to the hotel after work she seemed really happy to see me, gave me a big hug, and made me feel really good. We got ready and went out for a walk downtown and had dinner in a fancy restaurant. We had a great evening together, we talked, we joked, we held hands, and we were both very relaxed.

When we got back the hotel I sensed that she was getting a bit more distant. I talked to her about it and she told me that bed time is kind of stressful for her. She obviously remembers the arguments that we have had after some of the ‘not tonight’ and she doesn’t know how I am going to react if she tells me that she doesn’t feel like having SF. It was difficult for me to hear that my W was stressed about going to bed with me but I understand that my behavior has somewhat ‘traumatized’ her and made the whole SF thing more stressful than it should be. I definitely know that I need to handle that better. The huffing/puffing, the restlessness, and in some cases bringing up the A or a ton of negative comments after being ‘rejected’ is not good for me, and not good for her – in anything it reinforces the stress around SF and makes the situation even worse. I gave her a hug, told her that I understood her point of view and didn’t envy her situation either. We cuddled and fell asleep quietly. And then this morning we had SF!

So far this week I have had to fight quite a few triggers. They are like bugs that creep into my head – they are negative, insidious, and hurtful. When they appear I now have this mental picture of throwing a big heavy stop sign at them and squishing them. And it seems to work – I chase the triggers from my brain and it gives me a sense of control and some peace. This has enabled me to limit the effect that those triggers have on my mood and overall behavior.