OKay so I am just gonna throw this out - keep in mind - this is just MY perspective and my view...and it only belongs to me. but I wanted to share it.

I have been on marriage builders a short time - a little over a year. Long for some, short for others. Most of you met me as a FWS coming here and kept me focused on ME - kept me out of the justifications, kept me out of the excuses and kept me on track. It was very hard - most of you (even those who are now DEAR to me) hurt my feelings - ALOT.

You guys all stuck with me when my H, after 3 months of recovery started being very verbally abusive...and after 6-7 months left me for another woman...

And you guys have been with me since he has come back and we reconciled and things are slowly getting back to normal.

For that - I thank SOOOO many of you - you all know who you are.

Here is where my opinion comes in.

WHAT HAPPENED to helping people stay the track. I have seen swarms of FWS come in here, and SO many are being let off the hook. Oh - life has been so terrible for you - the neglect - the abuse. While in some cases (like SC) there is a REAL addiction problem, in many others - their BS's are acting like mine did - was mine abusive in recovery - yes...was he before - well my justifications say he neglected me for 8 years...but now that I am over a year out into recovery, have REALLY learned WHO my husband is, learned how to change ME...the neglect - alot was self written and things were twisted to justify my actions.

Many of your HARSH and what some people may see as disrectful comments to me are what KEPT me from justifying and REALLY looking at the REAL root of my problems.

While many WS's say the BS's here are harsh - to be HONEST with you? I see so much more CODDLING and EXCUSING of the WS's AND the BS's then there EVER used to be.

So many are coming on and being told - you have an addiction...and people say - oh I had an addiction...it's done. That's it.

What happened to challenging people to look deeper? An alcoholic doesn't say - wow - this is an addiction and it's done and never look back - okay some do - but most - down the road struggle again unless the ROOT is uncovered.

Instead we are letting both the WS and the BS fall into excuses and justifications, JUST LIKE THE AFFAIR?

And I am sorry - even if it felt like an addiction - NOT every affair is an addiction. I think many BS's look for that because it explains something they don't understand.

Yes the harley's talk about it being like an addiction - but for many it's more about a way of thinking - the fog, and less the addiction.

Most of the people who actually HELD other people on here accountable, who KEPT the focus on YOU - the only one who you have ANY control over (yourself) have left because this forum has become a place of coddling, and acceptance of excuses and justifications.

I personally thought this was a MARRIAGE BUILDING support forum full of advice, sympathy and plans.. but it's starting to become a sympathy and stuck forum...

Anyways. that is just my 2cnts. I would love to see this forum get back to what it used to be - a place that held EACH one of us accountable for our OWN actions - both BS and WS alike, and a place where we focued on the only thing we can control - US. ISn't that what Plan A and Plan B are all about? Controlling yourself?

Hi dorry - Please let me know when you see ME getting soft........

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

LOL WAT - you aren't soft yet....a little mushy tho...better work on that <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Me too, Dorry. I came here about 1.5 years ago as a BS with a pregnant OW. A few months later I outed myself as a FWW as well when my own DD happened. I didn't have to stick around. I didn't have to out myself here but because of the brutal honesty and support I had already received as a BS I wanted to help shed my old WW skin and grow. I saw Pepperband offer to help a BS grow and she caught my attention. Pep, susan, Bramble Rose, Forever Hers, Melodylane many, many more I would have trouble naming have not allowed me to wallow in my pain and my unwillingness to hold my WH accountable. Instead they would remind me that I need to focus on me, the changes necessary in me. No, I am not always good at following the MB, but I strongly believe in the MB prinicpals. In my time here I have seen WS and BS grow, change, heal (with or without their spouse) and become success stories! WAT is a great example of personal success. Pepperband and Melodylane examples of marital success. But we can't just let people whine and not make necessary changes. I have been accused of being too harsh with some WW's but sometimes that is the only thing way to get them to really see their contribution to the downfall of their M.

Radical honesty is the biggest challenge for many but it has the best results too. I LIED to my H for nearly 10 years. I built up walls to hide my secrets. My secrets killed any chance of intimacy ever truly happening in our M. As much as it hurt at the time, I am so, so thankful to the person that outed me to my H. What growth, what relief, what self forgiveness I have finally achieved..something that NEVER would have happened if I had continued to lie.

Ok, off my soapbox and back to regularly scheduled programming. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Oh and WAT...soft? nah, never. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Y'all have it right. This board exists to promote the principles in Dr. Willard Harley's practice. Adverse opinions count, people are free to express them, but the tried, effective precepts in Surviving An Affair are what this website is about. Suggesting that personal attacks on a five-year veteran on this board are as useful as quotes from Dr. Harley's book is...well, fill in your own opinion.

Dorry:

You said..



It's so interesting how folks have DIFFERENT OPINIONS...

I see this so differently. IMO, the forum has become more mean-spirited. I think you can "CHALLENGE PEOPLE TO LOOK DEEPER" (as you say) and can be confrontative without being DISRESPECTFUL OR RESORTING TO NAME-CALLING AND/OR PERSONAL ATTACKS..that borders on being verbally abusive...!!

That has recently occurred to me here..

If I had been a BS..it would have been happening to me on the FORUM as well as AT HOME...YUK!! I was literally SAVED by people here who were directive and confrontative to me but not in a HURTFUL, DEMEANING MANNER...

You also say:



I'm not sure where this POV comes from. Your personal opinion? The point is MANY, VERY MANY AFFAIRS ARE ADDICTIVE...that definitely is the HARLEYS' THEORETICAL POINT OF VIEW...THE FOG IS A SYMPTOM/FEATURE of the ADDICTION..it definitely was in my FWH's case....



This is me sharing my viewpoint on this..

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

You make some very good points Mimi - and i do love the different points of view - it's what has always helped me to see that there are many different sides to many things.

While I agree that there are ways to help people that aren't so abrasive and hurtful - some people only want to hear what they want to hear...and take some of the 2x4's personally...and alot of people are jumping to defend those people when defense isn't what they need. So while some it may be harsh - if the people defending can also make the same points in a gentler way fine I am for that. But what I am seeing is that those gentler points and help are being missed now...those who were gentler have been chased away, and now those who may be considered harsh are also been chased away.

What we have left are people who are more interested in just being sympathetic then sympathetic and holding people accountable. Sometimes no one wants to hear the truth - heck there are people here who call the Harley's and don't like their truths either...sure there is a better way to tell those truths - but what's happening is the truth sayers - be it nice ways or harsh ways are being chased away and we are being left with coddlers. (this is not directed to anyone in general so no one take it that way - it's a general view of the entire board and every post I read)

As for my POV - that it is - my POV. I didn't say no affairs were addictive did I. I said what you said - that most are - but NOT ALL ARE. And many people who's spouses are NOT in the addictive part are given the same advice as the addicts...and I dont believe it should be. Once again my belief.

Just like the Harley's don't personally issue the EXACT advice to each case...and even advice marriages ending in many cases...same with on these boards. I also know the Harley's also look at each person looking into the REAL root of things to help take EXTRAORDINARY precautions to protect the marriage in the future.

I am a FIRM believer in Marriage Builder beliefs...but Mimi - you gotta agree with me - there are alot of PLan do it yourselves running around here - modified Plan A's, modified Plan B's and people saying - Yah wtg - whatever works for you....I remember the Harley's saying specifically it may seem unatural and tough and may not make sense but it WORKS...they didn't say - adapt it to what makes sense for you.

We end up with alot of stuck people who are just plan stuck...who AREN'T calling the Harley's for their advice, and continue to get enormous amounts of sympathy for their victim status.

And we then end up with WS's who come in, say they own their affairs, and move on - but still sound entitlist and still blame their BS's and dont really "get" what's at the root of their problems - them.

And we end up with a bunch of people NOT changing themselves - but demanding change, forcing, or waiting for change on the other person...which PLan A or Plan B is not about - they are all about changing YOU for the better so that you stand a better chance at reconcilliation, ending the affair and having a better marriage.

This forum has lost sight of that.

But this is only from my standpoint, from where I sit, based on what was effective for ME, and what helped ME. The harshness and 2x4's were the only thing that really kept me looking at me. And to be honest - I dont think I would have ever fixed the roots of my problems if it wasn't for that harshness. I would have stayed a WS who was a victim for life nad more than likely strayed one day again....

Softness works for some people, harshness for others. Let both post...ignore the ones you don't like - read what works best - but usually the harsh posts do get you thinking...and if you are having no progress moving ahead, then maybe look at the posts you dont like (being harsh or soft) cause maybe somewhere in there, as hard as it to read, is the real solution.

You cant change no one but yourself <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> And like it's been said b4, do you want to be right or do you want to be married. It's on here too - do you want to be right, or do you want to heal your marriage. Alot of peoples advice, harsh or soft can help you do that.

But all in all - the best thing you can do is call the Harley's...the forum, while great as it, is second class to them.

Hey Dorry, WAT EtAl -

I've been talking to LostOne and Nash, both WS's. Any help you can give is sure appreciated.

sure - let me find their threads <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

"My opinion - does it count too?"

Right after MNSHO...


“I see so much more CODDLING and EXCUSING of the WS's AND the BS's then there EVER used to be.”

Dorry, you forget one thing: you and a very small handful of other FWS here are different. You get it. What you don’t understand about yourself and your M you are actively looking into.

You could drop the FW as far as I am concerned.


“So many are coming on and being told - you have an addiction...and people say - oh I had an addiction...it's done. That's it.”

I think this applies to the missing EN theory of A’s too. It’s mostly a face saving way for WS to start recovery. Share the blame a bit. After all, if missing ENs were the real cause most BS, including me, would have had an A by now - especially those of us dealing with LTAs. Yet even with multiple opportunities over long periods of time we didn’t.


“What happened to challenging people to look deeper? An alcoholic doesn't say - wow - this is an addiction and it's done and never look back - okay some do - but most - down the road struggle again unless the ROOT is uncovered.”

I have tried this on a couple of FWW threads recently. I do not write as well as most posters so I often come across as lecturing. But mostly I want to understand. Got yelled at for my efforts, though. Called mean and only singling out FWW to pick on.

Most FWS seem to have thin skins and actually want to be treated with kid gloves. Must be an EN or something. OK, I have better things to do with my time.

But I still get hot under the collar when I detect lingering entitlement in even long-time FWS posts.

One FWW I now ignore spent the first half of most of her posts complaining FWS are being treated like a different class of people and the second half of her posts actually demanding they be set up as a protected class.


BTW, if you remember Dorry, I thought for sure your BH would never have a revenge A. Shows what MNSHO is worth...

With prayers,

Bumped lostone up. His wife is JustEmpty.

A

You always love your opinions and I dont see you posting AS much anymore either. And you are someone that ALWAYS made me look deeper in...I even remember on my thread when H was in his office almost EA a post to me that made me so mad that you wrote, lol but at the same time as mad as it got me, you made such good points that I would have been stupid not to think about them

You are right - alot of us FWW's are different...but to be honest Alph - I was no different that the kid gloves ones...I used to take so many things personally - I WANTED to be the victim - I DIDN"T like being the bad guy - cause I had an affair my H was no longer the bad guy - NOW I was...and that was more than I ever bargained for.

And I hear it in EVERY SINGLE FWW who comes here...and I am sorry - but sometimes they need that slap to wake them up to the seriousness of what they have done...cause as much as they think they are being serious - they dont REALLY get it. There are some that still struggle - but they are HONEST about their struggles...and don't try to sugar coat it with what others have done to them...even if they are complaining about the marriage. To me - that's still looking at yourself.

Instead we end up with people who are quick to defend and sympthize and we end up with more and more victim mentalitis to both the WS and the BS.

While the BS's ARE the victims - I do agree...and it's horrible what WS's are doing while active - I see these people who aren't REALLY PLAN Aing - they are being doormats, clingy, needy - and demanding of change. I am sorry - but isn't plan A about LOVING your spouse, with boundaries, and bettering YOU???

Instead we see these Plan F's, G's and H's....which i dont think the Harley's would recommend...and people who harsh as they are - keep on the MB basics, running away.

MB is NOT for everyone- hey - MY H wont come back to MB ever again or practice them...but I believe in them. Love busters taught me to communicate on a whole new level, and changes have happend in my house because of it.

What happened to the whole To see change you have to be change mentality. Instead we see - You never have to change, both WS and BS alike - and you are right - they are wrong. You dont have to do anything to yourself...they should do all the changing for you.

I dont remember that being part of Plan A? or Plan B?

Instead we see these Plan F's, G's and H's....which i dont think the Harley's would recommend...and people who harsh as they are - keep on the MB basics, running away.

Bravo Dorry....Bravo!!!!!!!!!

ARK

I keep telling myself that I'm an old softy.

Dorry wrote: "You always love your opinions..."

Bwaaahaaa...

Was that a Freudian thing?

With prayers,

LMAO

HAHA - I didnt catch that. WHOOOPS

You know what I mean to type LOL

I I I I I I I I I

always love your opinions <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Regarding opinions:

Once I thought I might be wrong but I was mistaken.

Hey Appy, you mean?? Hon, I see you as a friend to many FWW's myself included. I know you try to learn as much as you can so you can understand your own FWW.

Dorr--well said and BRAVO!

LOL, Rookev the last thing I would call you is a softie. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Dorry:

I agree with pretty much of what you are saying on your last post in response to me...

I'm not bothered by HARSH posts.. I agree that HARSHNESS can be helpful. I was a victim of namecalling. I do not agree with that is what I am saying. Going to that level, IMO, is not necessary as a way to express a differing POV.

You actually see the ENTIRE BOARD as being just CODDLERS?



DEFINITELY AGREE!!

But, the Harleys recommend these plans based on their notion that affairs are addictive..or rather based on their belief of using the same approach towards infidels as is used for those that are addicted...



I guess I'm not reading these threads or posting on them...



I am saying that for me, unlike you, as a BS, harshness would have ran me away from here because my WH was being downright mean to me. I came here for SUPPORT AND DIRECTION. I GOT BOTH!!!! I think our different experiences color our points of view. That's normal and expected.



I AGREE WITH THIS 1000%



I AGREE WITH THIS 2000%!!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Okay so exaggerating a little - but in all honesty - 80% of this board is coming to that....that is not my exageration but what I see...but only from my view...and once again - my view is my view.



Agree....but cakeeaters are usually addicted...exit affairs aren't SA aren't (they are addicted on a whole new level) For some affairs - like MY HUSBANDS AFFAIR - it was a way OUT - not an addiction. My affair was addiction LIKE...and so plan A worked great on me...in my H's case - there was NOTHING I could do except work on me. Plan A, Plan B were USELESS on him. He wanted to leave and never come back and she was his exit. There are ALOT of people like that who cling and need and hold on - and in those cases - you have to let go and if they come back they come back. EVEN THE HARLEY's will advice to let go in MANY cases. So why on here if someone tells someone to let go...that it isn't addiction...and that focus on yourself...and let the chips fall - you get crucified. People forget that even the Harley's say not all can be saved...

I let go and luckily my H came back. A month later...there was a very good chance due to his pain he would have NEVER come back - she would have filled that void and been his everything. Lucky for me - she dumped him....

So while many are addictions, not all are - so in some cases we coddle where the harsh truth is - they need to let go. But the thing is - none of us are the Harley's - who are we to decide who needs to be in what plan...it's why people need to call the Harleys...but MANY MANY people here who tend to be harsh are usually BANG on with seeing through the BS and what is addiction and Plan A, plan B material and what needs to be walked away from.

People sometimes stay so long, or try so hard at a false plan A, that they never really benefit from a true plan A - where their confindence and who they are changes...and the environment on this board seems to start letting that happen...do your own thing - we will be here to tell you how sorry we are.

We all know pain...we all know deceipt, we all know hard days and good days...we can all relate....but this isn't just about relating and feeling sorry for ourselves - it's about solutions and better futures - right?