PK, I did not mention you at all. It would be erroneous to believe I was even thinking about you.

However, if you have seen CC46's thread this afternoon, you'll see that Dr. Harley (right from the "horse's mouth") specifically said affairs should be exposed even if the affair is over. Sorry, but IN ACCORDANCE WITH the principles of this board, and Dr. Harley's own words, you and your husband are both wrong and Melodylane was right. Regretfully, I don’t know any kinder, gentler words to say that.

I'm quite sure you now view me as being condescending and, no doubt, rude because I have quoted Dr. Harley and because I refuse to accept your opinion. That's unfortunate.

On the other hand, I wish you all the luck in the world in getting your marriage back together.

Top rope said,


It is funny how some of the same people who cry foul about others being disrespectful find it perfectly ok to be disrespectful themselves. This reminds me of Tope rope’s point that people want to know if they are being cheated on, but yet feel that it is morally permissible to withhold the same information from another who is being cheated on in the context of the karma thread. If you don’t like what you read here and don’t want to discuss it, you should either be a spectator or ignore this thread. Just don’t be rude about it, unless of course you want to resort to the sort of double standard that has been exhibited in this place lately.

Longhorn,

.

We are of the same mind on this point.

I was referring to the same e-mail on the first page of this thread and, needless to say, I agree with you 100%. Although I agree with Justuss’ action, I want to go on record as saying that I too have seen the relevant parts of this e-mail and also believe that it was totally inappropriate.

Sorry, Justuss. I wasn't aware of that prohibition and I apologize.

Thanks, UVA. Sometimes, one has to do a thing just because it is right.

[color:"blue"] Ahhhhh PK but you did:

This is some comments I had on a post of yours from the other day. I refrained to let my frustration cool down and perhaps post with a clearer mind. We all here really want you to "get it"... You still think your marriage may have been better off if your husband didn't know you had an affair 4 years ago. I respectfully disagree and point out that that is a anti-marriage builder belief.

You posted this the other day:[/color]



[color:"blue"] Let me preface this by say I respect your opinion and the right to have one. But seeing as you have never been betrayed or had the “gut feeling” you were being betrayed you fortunately have not had to face this dilemma. YET!. I hope and pray you do not but did you know the most likely person to have an affair right now in your relationship is your husband? As I know you are aware, so I point this out only to reiterate your story and not to hurt you, you deceived him, you hurt him, you destroyed the image he always had of you, and you lied about it for 4 years and then only came clean after OM's wife revealed your secret. I have not performed a study or tested the hypothesis but I have seen it written here many times that about 6-8 months into recovery your Husband's taker will pop up and if opportunity arises and his entitlement, justifications and rationalizations all merge, he may find himself in an affair situation himself. I hear he's a good guy (slightly fogged out as of late from what I've read and in my opinion, of course) but a nice guy nonetheless. So maybe you'll be lucky and won't have to make the difficult snooping and other decisions faced by so many of us.

Further, on that note, I think it would nice, in my opinion, if you warned all newbie’s you post to that you have never been faced with having to make the decision to snoop or not in your own life. Maybe a prequalifier to your opinions would be nice and mindful or perhaps just a summary in your signature line. (Not because as a FWW your value or opinion counts any less but because the person receiving the advice can understand your perspective...he/she may not listen to the above, for example, but may ask you important valuable questions which as a FWW you specifically will know the answer to better than a BW - see what I mean) [/color]



[color:"blue"] While you are surely entitled to your opinion I have to disagree. I believe to wander from what Dr. Harley himself calls a very narrow path to marital reconciliation...a proven path, I might add, may itself land a person in the "fog". I especially disagree with making that assertion on the MB Website (but your free to make it nonetheless...I just disagree).

PK, if you yourself had not tried to do things "your way" and keep your affair a secret from your husband for 4 years your own recovery would likely be done and over with by now. Your past deceit coupled with 4 years of lies has put you in a much more difficult position than if you had just come clean long ago. I would suppose a poster like you would be on here extolling the virtues of following the MB plan precisely as you should have learned that doing it "your own way" and searching for "grey areas" does not work. Perhaps, no most definitely, you are still learning, which I hope is why you are here.

BTW, I am not judging you as a FWW. My wife is one. Many of my MB friends are also. My “argument” with you. My “opposition” to you. Has only to do with the fact you are posting advice and opinions contrary to Marriage Builders (which is the "PRIMARY INTENT OF THIS BOARD") and you and your husband, in my opinion, still have some way to go in recovery. How far I am not certain. But, your ongoing journey is being reflected in your opinions and advice and though I am not as direct and savvy at confrontation as others, I felt necessary to point out…your posts MAY be damaging others that come here or lurk here. (I also don't have all the answers yet so I am not being condenscending either).

On my wife's first thread last spring she argued, in effect, the exact same thing regarding MB principles to the MB senior members. She summarized her argument and frustration by stating "There's more than one way to skin a cat". Her AND I both poked fun at the Marriage Builder's cult like attitude. However, over time, we came to realize they were right and we were wrong. We learned and I hope you do too...until then I respectfully recommend that you consider prequalifying your posts on the Marriage Builders Website critical of the Marriage Builders plan. I am not saying you need to "go away" but merely hope you recognize that you are still in the learning process and have a ways to go.

I ask you this question, with all seriousness. What if you ARE wrong? A little while ago there were 32 registered users and 55 unregistered users. Many of those un-registered lurkers are desperate people searching for answers and a way to handle/cope with a serious issue in there lives. They may be too scared to post and are in the process of applying the MB plan. They quite often look for "grey areas" (I know both my wife and I did). They may take what you say and run with it. They may say "Yes, gray areas...that's a good point PK...I'll try this and that but I'm not much for this and that, oh, that PK, I like her...she's dead on". These lurkers and newbie’s are more likely than not fogged out, whether they are a BS or a WS...and they should be sticking to the narrow path, the proven path, the path recommended by the only professional on this site (Harley)...and the path that you are still, I hope, trying to navigate yourself right now (added - please stick around...just open yourself to the idea you may not be right). But you don't tell them that. Your post implies YOU know the a different or better path, you advocate the path is full of choices and bends, you can pick and choose your way along it, you'd be a fool or "fog" to buy into the "whole" concecpt and you have the answers. I merely am suggesting as politely as I can that I don't think you know the answers....YET. [/color]


[color:"blue"] As far as perception goes, it is my personal perception that your perception that Ms. Lane doesn't care about you or Marriage Builders and only cares about being right was a misperception on your part. It is a FACT, Melody truly cares about every marriage that ventures into this quagmire and she only wanted to "argue" opinions so she could assist you down the path of marital reconciliation as well as protect the newbie’s and lurkers from adopting or conceiving of what she and many others here view as un-marriage builder like opinions. Melody tirelessly defends or should I say defended Marriage Builders principles against what she perceives as destructive and/or erroneous opinions and opinions she tried to alter through legitimate (albeit tough) debate. It is my opinion that you and others owe her an apology and request that she not abandon Marriage Builders based upon your actions. I know it is mostly Tempest that she had the biggest problem with, but in my opinion, I, for one, would not want to be one of the parties responsible for Marriage Builders losing such a valuable resource whether you “like” her NOW or not. I think you will like her one day, just like everybody else.

I don't want to stoke this up any more. Sorry. Some of this was written the other day and I've got stuff to do. I'm sure certain sentences could be contrued and/or picked apart and again I apologize up front. It's all good. No worries.

Guess I'm feeling a little BLUE! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I need a vacation....Jamaica, here I come...Ya'Man...Respect

Of course, this is all just my opinion.

Mr. Wondering[/color]

The very last thing I have to say on the matter comes from a poster that I respect very much. JL said:


My H was the collateral damage. As were my children. The exposure served no purpose but to hurt, regardless of what you, ML, Dr. Harley or anyone else say. You did not live it; I did. I am not saying exposure is wrong. I am saying that in my case it added to the pain for no reason. As I said in the other thread, I am not the only one who believes this. But the only one who counts is my H.

You are entitled to your opinion. I don't need you to accept mine - I don't care whether you or anyone else on on the forum accepts my opinion. My purpose in posting is not to get others to accept my point of view. I view you as neither condescending nor rude, but I do find it interesting that you would assume that I do. Go read ML's words to me again. They were way beyond condescending and rude. They were mean-spirited and nasty, yet you continue to defend them.

Warning: The following post comes from someone with less than a thousand posts. She is a FWW, considered armed with ideas that may differ from others. Be afraid. Be very afraid. Read at your own peril.

Mr. Wondering, thank you for the thoughtful post. First, I don't think that I am responsible for running anybody off. Exactly how did I do that? I'm still a bit unclear. I must have more power than I thought.

And if someone's way of caring about someone's recovery (who has been a FWW for coming up on 5 years now) is to call them a "liar and a cheat", well, I'd rather not be cared about so much. Ignore me, please.

Mr Wondering, I had lunch w/my H today. He talked about how the other associates he works with send him the "young, good-looking, difficult to please" cases, as they are a bit reluctant to take them on. My H, having many years experience, is not.

Now, part of me wondered, Hmm, maybe I should be worried here? Is he saying this to elicit a response? He lives with a lot of hurt, every day. And, if I read you correctly, you are saying that I should be - worried, that is.

Hmm. Shall I check his cell phone more often? I basically leave it alone and tell him when it rings. If it's his office, I tell him about it. But he gets quite a few calls with numbers I don't recognize. I'm going to have a bit of a time tracking them all down. I'd rather spend the time with him.

If my H, after all that we have been through, *and all that we have left to go through, because our R is rather new* decides that he wants to have an A, I don't think that there is much that I can do about it. I have been working to meet his EN, as outlined in MB. We are in counseling. But rather than worry, I elect to cross that bridge if and when I come to it.

Look, I see a lot of posts from people whose spouses are still in withdrawal from the OP. I don't want to tell you what I think when I read that. It wouldn't be productive. So I don't post on those threads. I have no experience with it. I think it is cruel and unusual punishment for a BS to have to deal with a WS in withdrawal, is all I will say. I know that if *I* had been in W/D, rather than four years past an A that I ended, my husband would have said "bye-bye. Don't let the door bang you on the ...and leave the kids, please" Now, does that mean that everyone should be that way? No. But it is true for him, of that I have no doubt. It's not MB, but it's him.

I am not the only poster who has said that they are unsure about all the Harley concepts. Anyname just said so the other day. Anyname is one of the posters that posted to me when I first came here. She, without ever having to issue a 2x4, got me to think. To REALLY think. She didn't have to call me names, either. Same with 10S, same with makeverydaycnt, whose style isn't exactly warm and fuzzy.

I never said that exposure is wrong. But I did disagree when people said it was always a good thing. For us, it wasn't. Why is that so difficult for people to accept? I'm not saying that for others it should be *my* way. I'm not saying that at all.

Where is Rodney King?

Where is Rodney King? LOL

PK,

I'm not telling you to snoop on your husband but I hope you attain a level of intimacy, as a result of your brave disclosure (when you didn't really have to after OM'sxW gave your husband a little information and you admittedly could have maintained the denials), that you didn't have pre-exposure, to such an extent that you can look back one day and say and your husband can say, "You know what...OM'sxW did us a favor".

Generally, reconciled marriages, with full honesty, and applying MB principles (in whole) are better than pre-affair/pre-exposure marriages. If you don't agree than try harder, ask questions, seek solutions, and attempt to attain that goal. It troubles me that you don't see or feel this way yet. It troubles me that your husband doesn't see this. It is my opinion your marriage is STILL in trouble without overcoming, acknowledging, working through and/or addressing this "hidden" hurdle. If your marriage is still in trouble I worry your husband might be ripe for making his own "mistake". I propose Melody had the same concerns...just got frustrated sharing it.

Consider this: April 26, 2005 (D-Day) was the worst day of my life and the best day of my marriage. I have that hope for you, PK, and your husband.

Dubya

I'm gonna side with LongHorns view of this too. I agree 100% and view with outrage the moderators actions in this matter.

I have heard Dr. Laura tell someone that they shouldn't tell a spouse of an A after it is over and done. She said it is wrong to do it and that they would just be doing it relieve their consciences. She believed, as you do, PK, that is would just cause unnecessary harm. I also recall Dr. Ruth having the same opinion. I would guess that Dr. Joy may also share that opinion. So, you may find some solace knowing that other professionals share your opinion.

I, on the other hand, buy into Dr. Harley's Rule of Radical Honesty. So, I disagree with Dr. Laura, Dr. Ruth, Dr. Joy...and PK.

JMHO

Please review Dr. Harley's:
Four Rules for a Successful Marriage

Pay especially close attention to the Rule of Honesty.

That is absurd (in my opinion). I'll choose reality every time. How would the problems that led to the affair be corrected if the affair was never revealed to the spouse?

penalty kill:

Let me start with I do think your attitude and overall posting style have taken a dramatic upturn compared to when you FIRST came here.
I've noticed it as you've become more comfortable and began posting on more and more threads & boards.
So that's a huge positive.
Good for you & I Hope its helping your M and life.

With that said,
just know I would not have sought you out for this.

However,
since you did decide to reenter the discussion,
I have a question for you.
(should you be so inclined)

Its a given, I'm NO expert on your situation (granted).

However,
if your H hadn't found out about your A (apparently from the OMW) .......then would either of you be here NOW??

Isn't being here (at MBers) and actually working on your M (as well as your past), as well as learning the Tools for a healthy relationship, ect., ......... a positive that would most likely NEVER have come about if not for your being exposed?

Just an honest question as I haven't the time to do a full research on your past.

By the way,
just in this thread you mentioned that your exposure was not a Completely Good Thing.

I think we all accept that there is of course going to be some hurt, some pain & some fall out as a result of exposure.
Premise is: that the Long term benefits outweigh the short term pain. (or something close to that)

Of course I don't speak for everyone,
but What many of this side fear is that by posters pointing out that they are the "exception" and that their situation is somehow unique,
it will start that not just a slippery, but a most treacherous slope.

WHY?

Cause almost EVERYONE that comes here "thinks" that THEIR situation is Unique, or different, or special.
Yep, almost to a one!

So,
if they can Find that loop hole that says "if you are Unique" ....You get to pick and choose what you want to do.
After all if your a "special" case, the same rules and boundaries don't apply to YOU.
As a result,
many a newbie could be lead down a harmful (or at least less productive) path.

That is just one of the fears of this kind of posting.

And that's not to say your not being Honest and sincere.

Just know that by not being "emotionally" connected to your own situation,
gives us a different perspective then you might have at the moment.

This is not to say Don't put your opinion and experience out there.
Feel Free.
But just know there will ALWAYS be others there to balace things out.

In addition,
Some such as myself will ALWAYS be very Very Passionate on this subject. [Don't know if that's good or bad] <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Indeed, as shown by my coming back to this thread, even to the point of harping.

For myself,
its due to the fact that I am deeply offended that anyone would ever Think "they" should decide what is Relevent or Not Relevent for ME to know about my own life .
I feel I am an adult and can handle any truth. (which isn't to imply there won't be consequences to my knowing)

Even so,
I (me, myself) am the Best person to determine my life and fate .......and to do that I have the right to have as complete a knowledge base, in order to make my Choices.

Sadly,
I've had ENOUGH of lies, deception, cover ups and half truths for a life time.

Indeed,
I've already tried living with a cheating W deciding what was "best" for me / As well as what I didn't know woudln't HURT ME! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
That didn't turn out so well! [at least NOT from my end]

Bottom line is its not up to someone else to Play Almighty & decide what someone else should or shouldn't know about their own M and Life.
None of us dealing with these issues are children & therefore,
We should all have the privledge of making our own mistakes. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

So I will argue with most any one that believes a Grown Adult should be kept in the dark with matters that Affect them this personally.
Especially with a grievance that is as damaging On So Many Levels as infideltiy.

As the good book says:
"my people are destroyed by a lack of knowledge".
When it comes to A's ......this is Right on the Mark.

Sorry if I got a little emotional there by the end.
<gets me going I'll admit>
Hope I didn't come on Overly strong for ya.

But as I said, this is an issue I will most likely always defend.
In my eyes:
Its simple,
give people factual information and let them make their OWN Choices / Even if its not always the most comfortable thing to do.

Unfortunately,
what's usually Easier is to find any number of reasons NOT to do the right thing. Just the way the world works.

Killer post Top Rope.

As far as Tempest: Agree with Longhorn and Bigkuhuna 100%

A lot of good points have been made all day regarding this issue. Even ones I don't 100% agree with.

Jamiaca...3 days and counting. I think y'all need to come too.

Respect,

Dubya

Having not seen any of the alleged emails that have been flying around, it's my belief that Temptest's actions were correct---MelodyLane was being abusive and rude on the thread, to the point of hurting the board.

What bothers me more is the perception that ML was acting on MB principles:


I'll say kindly and directly that you (and ML) are mistaken. Dr. Harley (unless he has changed his opinion) is only of the opinion that the affair should be exposed IN THE MARRIAGE. The idea of going public with exposure is a technique that Dr. Harley may recommend, depending on circumstances---but it is not a 100% tell all, black and white issue.

I don't think MelodyLane was intentionally misleading anyone, but from what I read, her belief that the MB program recommends public exposures for affairs is wrong. Having said that, I haven't spoken to Bill in a very long time, and it's been 8-9 years since I counseled with Steve---so it's always possible that I'm out-of-date. Possible---but not likely... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

The real issue here is with respect. It's great to know all the rules and regulations of the MB Bible (and trust me, I have a pretty good handle on it). It's another thing entirely to have a fundamental understanding of how these all work and interplay together to create romantic love in a marriage. And no matter how well-intentioned, or how seasoned a long-time poster is---it will never be well-received when the message is jammed down someone's throat, and then when they don't swallow they're hit with a few 2x4's and then beat up by the crowd.

And that, in essence, is what happened. And it's happened on more than one thread around here in the last few weeks. For those who view the moderator's actions with "outrage"---move on. The job is thankless, and I have a strong belief that should this forum degenerate to a place where people are not safe---Steve will shut the whole thing down. This site is not a public area that you can trash and deface---it's a privately-owned site that you should regard as a priviledge---a gift from the Harley's to the community.

I'd hate to see this lost.

K, I'm not sure what you are referring to. Perhaps there is some confusion here. If you are talking about exposing to a betrayed spouse after an affair is over, then "public" disclosure is almost certainly not appropriate. The adultery should be made to the BS and I can’t think of a situation where it would be a good thing to expose to anyone else.

However, what I usually talk about is the general case of a BS exposing his or her own WS while the adultery is on going. That IS recommended by the Harleys and that's what I'm talking about when I say I believe the affair should be exposed to everyone who can put pressure on it. Perhaps you could take a look at the letter from Dr. Harley in this thread? There's a very revealing paragraph about exposure in it.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...&PHPSESSID=

In the case of a BS being notified of an adultery by his or her spouse after an affair is over, there is this from just this afternoon.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...;page=0#2942830

Regretfully, I won't be able to follow your suggestion to stifle my outrage. Frankly, I wonder how one can. If posters with considerable expertise cannot post quotes from the Harleys and hold fast on MB principles, the website will be useless anyway. But that's just my opinion.

(Re-edited because I’m tired and didn’t write clearly the first two times. My apologies.)

Excerpts from Disrespectful Judgements

Insert MB member in place of spouse.


I have to remind myself of this from time to time.

BA109,

This is what Melody Lane was trying to do and her requests were met be insults much of which have been edited out by Justuss or by the posters themselves. Sure her requests have a certain tone we are all familiar with and that tone became a little stronger in RESPONSE to the insults. However, it has proven to be an effective tone over the years. It makes people uncomfortable and gets them thinking. We all, including Tempest, know and should know Melody Lane was NOT in a battle simply to be "right", she was trying to defend MB principles (as she interprets them) and engage the posters to get them to reconsider their positions and opinions.



ML did present her view and Dr. Harley's views on the subject and was called "condescending" amoung other things for pushing and pleading for the posters to offer their reasoning. She never got the opportunity to "listen" to their "information" so she chalked that up to a lack of reasoning (as we see on these boards from time to time). In response, they simple made Angry Outbursts and ran off to the monitors.

I venture to say what is "condescending" is a matter of perspective, it was inferred by many, but, not implied.

Just my opinion,

Respect...mon,

Mr. W

Longhorn:

How DARE you challenge the great and powerful "K"??? Do you not know fear???

But seriously, thanks for posting the link, although I would like to know if that's on the site as a recent addition (I don't believe it to be in the original Q&A section). Let's take a look at it here, shall we?


OK---this is standard by the book stuff. Plan A is to do exactly this: separate the affair partners. The first step in recovery is to provide a accountability plan, as well as complete transparency.


Notice now that he has changed to "in many cases". Having worked with the Harley's extensively (mainly Steve, less with Jennifer---neither of whom are their father and may not do things exactly the same), I will tell you that this is mainly for intense affairs in which the "ending" of them has been problematic for the wayward spouse---in essence, a track record of false recoveries.


The key with this phrase is "a couple struggling to restore their marriage after an affair". What is that struggle? Repeated contact by the wayward spouse with the affair partner. This tactic of exposing to the world is an escalation of radical honesty---it makes the affair very unpalatable. It also provides some significant obstacles in recovery. He is not "recommending" this as a general procedure for dealing with all affairs, but those in which the wayward spouse is still seeking out the affair partner.


So here he says "the basics are the same". End contact. Take precautions. Radical honesty. Transparent behavior. The method to get to this point is what differs. With extremely intense, long-term, and secretive affairs---public exposure may be necessary. That brings risks, which is why it's used in tougher cases. It's not a front line immediate response.

I hope that this makes sense. I always tell people if they have real questions regarding this stuff, they can call Bill on his wife's radio show, or set up a counseling appointment with Steve or Jennifer. I learned more in counseling with Steve than I did reading the books and this website---and I can pretty much recite the books and site verbatim. I highly recommend the counseling (888-639-1639: from memory, I might add). Of course, when I showed up here it was a bit cheaper...

I'm glad that you posted this. And I can respect where you're coming from.


I spent several years here as a poster with a high degree of expertise with regard to the MB principles. I agree with you---but I also believe there's an even bigger danger with regard to this website when "expert" posters post inaccurate information regarding the MB principles. I used to be the Plan A/B nazi---and inconceviably, I've even been wrong on a couple points. In fact, the theories that the Harley's incorporate here are continually refined through their practice, and I'm sure some stuff has changed since I last chatted with Steve.

But the bottom line is that respect should prevail. Even when someone here is as wrong and deluded as they could possibly be. The trick is to be respectful, CLEAR, and honest at the same time. It's the best chance you have to make your point---and when you're making a point, it should be for the benefit of a person's marriage.

K, I think there has been some confusion and I modified my post. Perhaps you could take a quick look at the edited version to see if we are actually disagreeing on exposure?

Mr W,

I'm not taking sides. I have no problem with Mel. She's cool in my book...even if she is from Texas. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

My post was meant as general F.Y.I. when trying to get a POV across. As I said, it was a reminder for myself as well.


The Harley principles do not need defending. They are tried and true. Be that as it may, they are not 100% effective in every marriage. There are posters (past and present) on this site that are very well versed in the Harley principles, practice them, preach them and teach them well and still their marriages have faultered.


I agree.