Longhorn:

We are in absolute agreement that spouses should reveal affairs. If a WS had an affair, they should reveal this to their betrayed spouse. When counseling that, I often suggest that they have done some preliminary counseling and have an exposure plan in place that includes immediate counseling for the betrayed spouse, should they need it.

If a betrayed spouse discovers their partner in an affair---same deal. They may need to delay exposure to collect solid evidence, contact lawyers, sharpen kitchen knives... but the exposure should absolutely be done.

Now, with regard to pulling others into the fray:


I disagree with this as a front line, initial confrontation approach (and I would suggest that the Harley's would too). If exposure and the initial Plan A approach isn't successful, public outing to family and friends is a reasonable course to take. I did this during my wife's affair, but it was four months into Plan A, and basically a pre-preparation for Plan B. I would tend to believe that these days the Harley's generally counsel for exposure sooner than that, but it would probably not be for the first few weeks---and as I mentioned, it's been years since I was doing this with Steve.

Do we seem to be on target now?

With regard to the locked post which has caused some of this broohaha---it was my impression that public exposure to other parties was being regarded as the "MB way" regardless of the situation. If I misread that, then I apologize.

K, I have re-edited my edit above. I'm tired and I'm guilty of not writing clearly.

I believe we are on the same wavelength regarding discovery of an adultery after the fact. That was the original premise of the locked thread. The concept is, and it appears Dr. Harley agreed today in his broadcast, the “other” betrayed spouse (or should I say each of them) is entitled to know about the affair.

In the general case where an adultery is on going, I still refer to the letter contained within the thread above. I see nothing to indicate Dr. Harley is recommending exposing a little at a time. With respect, while you were successful exposing incrementally, my thought is that doing so gives the adulterous pair time to concoct stories to defeat the impact of the exposure. My years of counseling subordinates leads me to believe a heavy dose of reality from all sides has more effect than escalating things a bit at a time. May I suggest we’ll just have to disagree on that?

TR, these are EXACTLY the reasons I confessed my A to my H. I've said the same thing over and over on the board.

I can only say again and I have a feeling this is what started the whole ruckus in the first place.

It is not the truth that causes the hurt, it is the affair.

I used to look at my H after the A ended and before d-day and think "you poor man, you have no idea your world isn't what you think it is." That wasn't a smug thought or a guilty thought, it was that horrible feeling that every day was a lie for him and he didn't even know it.

PK, does that mean you didn't have sex with the OM?

Or does it mean that because you didn't have feelings for the OM, it somehow makes it a lesser matter?

I know you regret the A, I know you hate the fallout it's caused to you and PB but that's what the board is all about, giving our opinions and our feedback. That's all I'm doing. A different way of looking at things.

If I seem to be picking on you I apologise. I've never been antagonistic to an FWW on the board before. Well, one FWW told me to "F off" but we became friends later. I just want you and PB to have the best marriage you can.

First, I would like to thank everyone who has replied since I have last been on, for having taken a civil tone. I have absolutely *no* problem with anything that anyone here has said. No one is YELLING at me, or calling me names for something that I already call myself names for.

The only thing that I will vehemently disagree with is that *I* was somehow the cause of ML's departure. I believe that she is the cause of her own departure, that she is probably following this thread, and that she will probably be back at the forum at some point.

First, there seems to be a perception that I advocate dishonesty after an A - even an A that is dead and buried, as mine was. That I think the FWS should remain silent at all costs.

This is incorrect. May I say it again, so that everyone hears me: It is incorrect to believe that I think a FWS should remain silent about an A that is over.

A poster (I can't remember the name) came on the site a few weeks ago. She had had an A, and was in NC, although she would see the OM from afar from time to time. Her H seemed to suspect that something was wrong, but did not directly ask about the A. IMO, he seemed almost not to want to know, although he probably suspected much.

I told her that she should consider being honest with her H, because no matter how well she thought she had hidden the A, something might come back to bite her, even years later. I stopped short of telling her what she *should* do. I will never tell *any* poster here what they should do, what they "owe" anyone. I am simply not that presumptuous. I leave that to others.

But this was the lesson that *I* learned from my A and my subsequent lie to my H. That it was NOT a good thing that I had swept it under the rug, even if I never saw the OM again. It would have been better if I had gathered the courage to say something before.

But, the other thread that generated such bitterness was not about THAT. It was about the relative ethics of one BS telling another BS about an A. This is a different matter entirely, IMO, and since it is from one person not related to another, I will invoke the first line of the Hippocratic Oath: "First, do no harm".

I don't think that only good can come from *that* kind of exposure, having been on the receiving end. Since the thread concerned "ethics", I pointed out that harm could result as well as good, particularly in the case where an A is long over and the potential gains of such exposure, again IMO, are minimal (no marriage to *build*, plenty of fallout)

I still believe this.

We are talking outside the marriage now. We're not talking about honesty within a marriage. The woman who "exposed" did plenty of harm. She relished it. I cannot sit by idly and listen while people talk about doing something like she did and not point out what happened to me. I don't understand why I am being excoriated for not adhering to MB principles when I do so. This was my life, I lived it, my H lived it. Who am I to argue with him that the exposure was not wholly a good thing?

Look, in my case, the informer had one fact, the fact that on one occasion I had been over at her house when she was not home. And she told what she knew, embellished with her own details that were not true, and she called many people who knew us both well and peripherally. Now, where does that fit into an "ethical" approach? And where does it fit into MB and helping a marriage? In my book, it doesn't.

It's more like [censored] Cheney with a shotgun if you ask me.

What I revealed my A to my H, I was much, much more detailed. It was the truth, and it hurt. I could easily have maintained a lie, that it was one time only. Oh yes, I considered it. And rejected it. And of course, we are taking that knowledge and attempting to build a better marriage. I have no choice but to look for the silver lining in this dark cloud.

But to hail the woman who exposed as having been some kind of wonderful thing for my M? No, I stop short of that.

KiwiJ, what I meant is that I bailed on the A when the OM told me that he loved me.

I woke up and realized that I didn't love him. Uh-uh. I saw him approximately every 6 - 8 months, kept him at arms length. I knew that what he was calling love was just infatuation. I wasn't even infatuated. He was a toy. I would put him back on the shelf when I was done playing.

Pretty gross, eh? Like I said, I'm not going to pretty up the truth just because people are listening.

So, I got out. Since the A had never meant that much to me, other than a diversion, to make myself happier about my own lot in life, there was no withdrawal. I remember a supreme sense of relief, though. I was growing more and more uncomfortable with the whole situation.

I was incredibly immature and selfish. I had years to think about what I had done, why I had done it, and how to prevent ever doing it again.

I used the approach of people, places and things. I opened my life up to my H, as I have said before. Suddenly, he had all my passwords. I would tell him exactly where I had been every minute of the day. He didn't think to wonder why he suddenly had this information. That alone was a problem - he was off in his own world where all was cool. When I look back, I almost told him more than once. It almost slipped out. I began to say things that even he became suspicious of ("If you ever slip up and do something like have sex with someone and you realize it's a mistake - don't tell me")

Now, should that have been a red flag, or what?

Mr. W, have a great time in Jamaica mon. Go climb Dunn's River Falls.

Penaltykill, having spoken with MelodyLane, I can confirm 100% that no poster here caused her departure. Whether or not she comes back remains to be seen.


Penaltykill, I accept that in your case, many years after the affair ended, there was probably only malicious intent on the behalf of the OM's spouse in exposing your affair. But so what. If your spouse didn't find out, you wouldn't be here now. You wouldn't have th eopportunity to build a better marriage. I am truely sad for both of you that you don't seem to be able to see at this point that the exposure in the long term will be the best thing that could have happened.

For my wife's affair, exposure killed it. OM's wife also found out about the affair. If you weren't forthcoming and honest with your spouse that's too bad. One of Dr Harley's principals is radical honesty. It can work for your good if you can get over the fact that OM's wife spilled the beans to your H as an act of vengence. Big deal. So what. Make the most of the chance you have been given to have a great marriage.

The fact that you are so hung up about exposure says a lot about your recovery. If you weren't exposed, your H still wouldn't know and you wouldn't have this opportunity.

Hopefully, in the longer term you will see this.

Dr Harley's principles aren't a mix and match and use what you like. They are a roadmap for navigating that narrow path that leads to marital passion. You reject and accept parts you don't like at your peril.

It might be of interest for those who've joined the board in the last year or so to know that Mel took a break from the board under similar circumstances a couple of years ago.

I mention this to allay any fears that individual posters may have that their behaviour caused enough offence to drive her out. My own observation is that it's a characteristic of Mel herself to respond to challenges with mounting counterattack...until she's generating so much backlash that it gets too hot even for her. Her approach is invaluable for a certain kind of poster - the ones who need a rocket up the bottom, and especially those where alcoholism is involved - but is counterproductive with others. Sometimes that's going to lead to explosion.

The last 'outage' did not involve moderator intervention - not in public anyway - as far as I can remember - but it came close.

TA

BigK, I don't think that I'm "hung up" on exposure. I posted in a thread that was close to my situation. I believe that my experience was pertinent. What I was "hung up" on, if anything, was the way I was treated when I posted. And then the way I was treated when posters left (or perhaps just took a little break, as they are entitled to do)

And actually, I was just telling my H the other night that while he feels that he "lives with less", I would rather look at it from the point of view that at least we know what we are dealing with and can be better to each other from here on out. That we can love each other more.

He remains unconvinced, but that is his nature, and I must deal with it.

I am actually a very positive, upbeat person, even in the face of ugliness. Comes from having dealt with a lot as a child - and having survived it all. I consider myself lucky, and blessed.

I don't consider myself "hung up", or rejecting of anything, but it is certainly your right to have that opinion of me, and I respect your right to your opinion.

K, Thank you for your words of experience. Somehow I missed your posts in the confusion.

You put things very well. Lots to think about.

K,

For the Substantive issue,

You are missing the point. You are using a straw man that no one was advancing. The issue is not whether one should expose to the world after the affair is over. But whether a BS has a right to know that he is been cuckolded by his or her WS. A subset of that is whether a BS who knows about the A should expose to the other BS if the latter does not know. No one is claiming about going public when all the BSs know. That is not the point under discussion.

For the procedural issues,


I am sorry I miss the memo that said you replace God. Who do you think you are? If some of us sees an injustice going on, we have a right to express what we think is unfair. And we feel that Mel was treated wrongly. To come here with an imperious attitude and giving orders but yet wanting to talk about respect is very hypocritical of you.

Yes being here is a privilege, but you don’t make the rules. And it is not up to you to determine what they should be or for you to be telling people to shut up. If you don’t like what you see here and don’t want to discuss, ignore the thread, but don’t come here telling people what to do and at the same time harping on respect. This thread will hopefully die naturally in the next few days or so as its point has been made. But I resent when posters like you try to censor others when it is unwarranted, as they tried to do with Mel and Lem.

Tempest was wrong to single out Mel both on the threads and in the private e-mail. You claim that you did not read the e-mail, but yet want to assert that there is nothing wrong with Tempest’s actions. That is the height of intellectual hubris to assert that you are right without knowing or taking into consideration all of the evidence. Again, your God Complex creeps up.


Mel was not being rude as you said. She was just telling some posters the hard truths that they did not want to hear. Telling hard cold truths is not being rude, nor is asking for evidence or reason for one’s position. You are free to call her actions rude, and I know that this may be news to you, but just because you say something is true does not make it so.

Some condone enable weak or immoral behaviors, others don’t. Mel and I and some others fall in the latter category. And that should be ok. One my main points here is that those who believe in telling it like it is, instead of coddling all kind of immoral or enabling behaviors should not be singled out or attacked by both moderators and other posters alike. What you and some others call rude, many call it being truthful.

In short, you are neither the judge nor jury of this issue or of this thread.

Very profound and very reveling Miss J.

Thank you for sharing that perspective and Insight!

As someone who has been on the boards nearly from the beginning, and having spent more time in counseling and discussion with the Harleys (85% Steve, 12% Jennifer, 3% Bill) than most of the other contributors on the threads in question, combined; it's my belief that this gives me a unique insight that many of you do not have. Also, as a MB "success" story against what many would have termed "insurmountable" odds, (http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=330660&an=0&page=1#330660), and having faced most of the crap a betrayed spouse can face (internet affair, real affair, children introduced to OM, incapability of WS to end affair, 2nd discovery after ending, Plan A, Plan B, pregnant WS by OP, raising OC), many posters have found a great deal of information and good advice in my posts. I have never been accused of coddling, and on these boards I have always been truthful in dealing with both BS and WS, but have done so in a way that generally helps them discover the truth for themselves. So that answers "who" I am.


Yes, I had an explicit post regarding that on the other thread that was disregarded and shouted over by people asserting they were right and that the other's opinions didn't matter, because they were not factual (or "MB factual"). That's the main reason I came out of lurkdom this time---this type of behavior would have never been tolerated by the community as a whole in the late 90's---because it is clearly is not helpful. Ask yourself how effective a counselor is who tells their client "hard cold truth" in a manner that appears blunt, uncaring, and insensitive to the client? When they respond in an "inappropriate" manner, should the counselor then go in to "prove" how wrong they are, and how right the counselor's position is?

This is why I called ML's actions abusive (and there were plenty of others, but as someone who normally agrees and believes that ML does quite a bit of good around here---I was surprised at her actions). It has nothing to do with condoning weak or immoral behaviors. It has to do with style, delivery, and content. And in the case of informing another couple's wife or husband that their spouse was an affair partner---this comes down to a Policy of Joint Agreement decision between the spouses. And that very important, factual MB point was completely lost in that thread (and I'll say I wasn't the first one to bring it up---thank you, JL).


And I resent when posters like you, Mel, Lem, and anyone else makes this place an inherently unsafe place for any person who's dealing with an affair. This has happened more than once in recent years. There are rules you agreed to abide by in the TOS when you signed up for this board---and many of these posts have fallen astray of the spirit of this board. I think it's terrific that you have a strong moral character and have a clear position of strength with regards to dealing with an affair. To be effective with these tools, you need to express yourself in a respectful, factual way that logically connects your beliefs to the MB principles in clear terms---this will make you an effective and valued contributor for all people who come here in need of help.

UVA


It seems to me that your primary beef is with the moderators or moderating style (in regards to the procedural issues). Have you emailed the moderator in question and brought your concerns forward that way?

The TOS of this site state:


Certainly, if you feel that a post is out of line (presumably even one by a moderator) it's your perogative to report the post. The whole point of a moderated discussion is that there are certain people who have the rights to 'edit, censor, or delete' posts according to their own judgements. I don't think it makes them God, or anything like that, but it certainly bestows upon them a certain amount of control over what goes on.

I'm not sure if you're asking for this forum to become unmoderated, asking people not to report posts even if they're offended by them, or what exactly. The way I understand the process to work is: If you are offended or uneasy about a post, you report it to a moderator. That moderator reads the post and makes a decision about whether or not it gets changed or deleted and what other actions take place. Once you've reported the post, you've pretty much lost control of the process and it becomes the purview of the appropriate moderator to make a decision.

If you don't like the decision of the moderator, why not take it up with the moderator in question instead of the person who reported the post? Or, with the board at large, since we don't really have control over what the moderator of the forum does?

Presumably, if a post was reported and acted on, then the moderator had a reason (whether it's one you would agree with or not) to act upon that post - and one could say, that somewhat validates the report. In other words, if a post is reported and a moderator - who is charged with maintaining the rules of the forum - decides it is not within the guidelines of the forum (not necessarily Harley's concepts) then I think there is some validity to say that post should have been reported.

I don't think I'd like an unmoderated forum very much. There are many times when trolls or solicitors who would otherwise be kept away would come in and ruin a message board without moderation. I've only reported a few threads (none recently) and I like having someone 'out there' who can look at some of the things people post and decide "Nah." and do something about it. I think it adds to the over all atmosphere of saftey and productivity on a message board.

Now, maybe you're not calling for an unmoderated forum - certainly, you've never mentioned that you are. But, again, it seems you'd get a lot further, a lot faster, if you took up your issues with moderation with the moderators themselves rather than (as it appears to me) asking people not to report posts that they find offensive or rude. Since you've said that different people find different things rude, it would be next to impossible for someone to seperate out a rude post that they 'should' report verses one that they 'shouldn't' report given that they might disagree on the morality, ethics or hard truth in question. My opinion is that people should be free to report posts that they are offended by or find rude and that the moderators should be the arbitiers of such disputes. It seems the fairest way to prevent this board from descending into a shouting match over who's right, who's wrong, and who needs to work on their communication skills (or whatever). If you disagree with what the moderator's find fair, well, once again... it seems an issue to take up with them rather than the board.

Just my thoughts on the procedural part of the dicussion.

Mys

UVA,

There are going to be folks who think Mel crossed the line from tough truth to rude disrespect, and others who think she's a hero. I personally think she's a hero that crossed the line....but that's just me. That's okay....because none of us are responsible for keeping this board running and on track and our opinion is important but unlikely to make much difference. Unfortunately, one of the folks who felt she had contributed in a major way to recent unrest was the moderator of the board and that resulted in some private admonishment and a general warning to the board because of all the complaints and problems. Mel has left the board before...so have most of the long time posters including myself who have either felt tired or attacked....it happens....it happens alot. Helping people everyday.....often thanklessly....can be exhausting and discouraging. Sometimes a break is a necessary thing. I understand you're outraged....and I guess having experienced this first hand I understand how Mel might feel too. This cycle has been repeated many times....and we all recover and most folks come back.

The small picture is the immediate action that occurred. But do you agree there is a bigger picture? These sorts of things arise from a pattern of disrespect...and a pattern of board disruption.....not from a single incident. I am really more surprised that it went on as long as it did, but I think that is a testimony to the fact that this was a situation where the principles were basically sound....yet the delivery had become abusive. That isn't solely because of any single effort by one poster....it was the "ganging up" and relentless pursuit on some of these threads. The "lynch mob" quality of too many threads. The way some threads became battlegrounds and folks took sides and the whole thing became a dj fest that sucked up the energy of the board. Was ML responsible for all that? Nah, of course not....but as the leader, the mentor, and most respected MB advocate....she's going to take more heat.

And the worst thing about a thread like this....is that it only makes it harder for her to come back, because such a big deal is being made of it. None of this is going to change the events that have already occurred. And surely you don't expect the moderators to say they made a mistake when they feel as strongly as you do about their duty. ML is a proud Texas lady.....and the bigger the hoopla....the harder it will be to return....trust me....I know.

One more thing... lest I be misunderstood...

I'm not suggesting that you 'can't' or 'shouldn't' have a thread of this type. I'm suggesting that it might be more productive in effecting the type of change you are asking for if you go directly to the 'source' of the problem you are describing.

That's all.

Mys

K ~ in reading your posts - it occured to me to think of the numerous times that 'oldtimers' have encouraged a certain action on the part of a BS. When met with resistance, the BS is encouraged by the 'oldtimers' to call the Harleys - convinced that Steve or Jennifer will back them up.

about 99% of the time, what Steve or Jennifer suggested to that BS is much different. Advice is always something that should be left to professionals.

I think any time that we presume to tell someone what they ought to do, wrapped up in our banner of MB principles, we get into trouble.

Rather than advising, sharing ones own experience and in how applying MB principles helped in a specific situation, is always a better way to provide support.

Being "right" does not equal entitlement to disrespect others.

There has been ALOT of that on these boards and its been building to head for awhile.

about 99% of the time, what Steve or Jennifer suggested to that BS is much different.

Care to elaborate on this statement?

SD

AMEN TO THIS POST!!!

In my situation, Steve H. was a lot less rigid in his application of the MB Principles than those on the forum..

This is understandable given that the Harleys are more knowledgeable of the particulars in any given situation...

I guess, in thinking about this, we use the forum for different purposes..

I relied on the forum mainly for SUPPORT because I was receiving COACHING from STEVE HARLEY. I relied less on forum members for ADVICE although I certainly appreciated and valued the advice that was given. I TRY to be humble in my suggestions here because I realize that I am not a professional in regards to MARRIAGEBUILDING. I only try to offer what worked for me and what my experience was like for those who cannot profit from PROFESSIONAL COACHING from the HARLEYS....

Too many people just aren't getting it. Melody was supporting MB principles against people who don't believe in them. Dr. Harley's precepts are what this website is about. She was not rude or condescending; she was uncompromising in her defense of MB basic principles. Too many people interpret refusal to accept another's argument as impolite. That's unfortunate but why do you believe it’s the fault of the one who remains steadfast in support of principle?

Mys, if you'll ask Tempest (assuming she'll answer) you'll find out she has been inundated with emails protesting what she did. It was only after she sent ME an email saying she wouldn't discuss the issue anymore that I began posting on this thread.

K, you've gone through a lot in your marriage, more than the rest of us could deal with. But, when you start dropping names and prefacing your missives with the information you've been on this board since the beginning…well, one might say that sends an unfortunate message. Whether you mean it or not, your words can be seen as implying your opinion means SO much more than other individuals. Sir, can you see how one might assume your words are too arrogant to be given credence? Carrying it a step further, when you do start your posts with those words, aren't you then guilty of some of the same things you suggest Melody is?

K, I’m actually quite certain you were only trying to establish your credentials, but do you see where that could be misinterpreted? Now I ask you…if I refuse to read the rest of your post because I got that impression, is it MY fault for being too sensitive, or YOURS for not making sure you agonized over every word until you made certain my prickly feelings wouldn’t be injured? You know what? I think it would be my fault.

Star, I tell you I saw the email Tempest sent Melody. It is absolutely clear Tempest was taking the opportunity to settle a difference because she had the power to do it. Tempest could have made her point by making broad generalizations instead of singling out Melody by quoting her. Similarly, Tempest could have made a distinction between a person who was supporting Dr. Harley and those who do not believe in his work and who were engaging in personal attack. Tempest did not do any of that in her first post. However, if you'll go look she actually has edited her original writing to try for something more general. I don't think she's there yet, but it's a start and I applaud Tempest for that.

A thought has struck me. Is it because everyone did not see the first version of her admonition that you don’t see any of these points?

You know, in part, the issue right now is whether posters on this forum have to wrap up their opinions in warm, fuzzy language so there is no chance someone resisting the ideas taught by Dr. Harley will get their feelings hurt. If we have to be kinder and gentler in all that we do, the process of communication becomes too entangled for the message to get through.

Sometimes an experienced poster out here has to say, “No, you’re absolutely wrong, WS. What you did was self-indulgent, cruel, and sordid and just plain stupid. It wasn’t a bright, shiny little experience your BS should accept because he/she loves you.” The recipient of that message isn’t going to like it one darn bit. To them, it is rude and unkind. Sometimes, the words are going to hurt…badly. Sometimes, those words ARE going to be rude; sometimes they are going to sound condescending. But, if those words can’t be said, there is no future for this board.

To wrap up, applying Dr. Harley’s principles is not intuitive. In fact, one might say it goes directly against a betrayed spouse’s instincts. To get the information across, one has to occasionally use uncompromising language and not accept counter arguments. It’s part of the process. Melody was only refusing to concede any points to individuals who do not believe in MB principles. That is NOT rude and quoting Dr. Harley repeatedly is NOT condescending. Why in the world would anyone who thinks Dr. Harley’s tenets are credible believe it is?

(Edited because I can't spell before lunch.)

Bramble, don't you think that if bad information was getting out on this board, Dr. Harley or Steve Harley would put a stop to it in a heartbeat?