Thanks already. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Tempest is the only person here whose can of whoop [censored] can outwhoop a can of TEXAS whoop [censored], so I don't mess with her! I am no dumb Texan! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Welcome back MEL you have been missed by many as you can see.... (((((((((MEL))))))))))))
JE

You bet I do...but I'm a Texan too, you know. We'uns is both packin'. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mel...you should cross over.

Forget that "TEXAN" stuff and become a Q U E E N !

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Susan, did you notice that K has the same registration date as you?

That happened after the big crash of 1999. Many of us lost our dates and even users names (me included) and since Susan and K are both older than dirt, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> they gave them a date BEFORE the internet was invented! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

There is no higher QUEEN than a TEXAS QUEEN, ya silly Mississippianippian! [whatever!] <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Thanks justempty <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Hopefully, this will die down now.

Yeah, we've been hanging around on this block a looooooong time!

The big crash...yes, that was something. No MB for days!

Mel I hope so too.
Lets get our sleeves up and start working...lol
Texan...Lol..What am I ....Mainiac...Yep

Given Mel’s post today and Lem’s post yesterday, the wind has been taken out of me on these issues. It is a good thing though.

K,

I was prepared to write you a long reply with all kind of arguments (in the logical sense), but probably not much would have come out of it except for an opportunity for me to vent some more and express myself. So I will let sleeping dogs lie. Just as you obviously reserve the right to call someone or an action rude on MB, I reserve the right to cry foul when I see that unwarranted censorship is being attempted on this board.

In the end, the main culprit seems to be a conceptual impasse between the two factions involved. We have a conceptual difference as to what “being rude” and “unsafe environment” mean for the purposes of MB. Let just agree to disagree on this point, and just keep our rights.

St*rfish,

You have addressed me twice and each time you have given me a lot of food for thought. I think that you made some very astute observation and some very good points on your last post to me. Given that I am getting tired from all of this, I will just say that I generally agree with most of what you wrote and don’t have much to add. The points of differences we have are of little importance at this point. I thank you for your comments, and although in this case we have come to different conclusions, I really enjoyed reading your post.

Myschae,

Once again a brilliant post from you. You remind me of Coach, one of the best posters I have seen on this site. (I am referring to the good traits only <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />).

No my beef was not jut with Tempest but also with those who try to censor and jump on Mel for having the following views, among others.

1. Not all opinions are equally valid.

2. Some are stupid.

3. Penaltykill’s marriage was hurt not by the messenger who told her husband about her A, but by the A itself.

4. Dr. Harley supports exposing to all spouses.

5. If an opinion is to be taken seriously (in the rational sense?) it should be supported by reason, logic or facts. Etc.

Being adamant about these claims does not make one rude. So yes, I had issues with the posters who try to jump on Mel for these views, especially since I hold these same views. Even if I did not, it would not be offensive for someone to have these views just because I disagree with them. And if one claims that to hold and express these views is offensive, an argument should have been proffered to that effect. No real argument was advanced in this regard. It is true that some implied that because some were offended by these views that there was an offensive act or that someone was being offensive. But one can’t take this claim seriously. For, as was pointed out, just because someone takes offense from something that does not mean that that thing was indeed offensive. More would have to be shown. It was also mentioned that the ‘telling it like it is’ style of communicating on MB has driven people away from the forum, or as K put it, made MB an unsafe environment for people to post. No evidence was offered for these contentions. I guess these claims made by fiat are to be taken as true merely because the relevant persons said they were. I beg to differ.

No, I am not looking for an un-moderated forum. As you said, that would be a recipe for disaster. And yes a moderator has a right to modify a post as he or she sees fit. I also have the right to say he or she is wrong if I deem the modification to be unwarranted. Moreover, I did not like how Mel was singled out by Tempest. And for another poster to tell me to move on, i.e., to shut up on the issue, was very offensive to me. I may be wrong, but like I suggested above, I will intervene if I can where I see injustice being done.

Further, I am hoping that MB does not turn into a forum where only enabling and water-down statements get to be posted. As I said to K, different people have different views as to what being rude is, but I still believe telling another the cold hard truth should not be censored either by moderators or fellow posters alike.

I thank you for your thought provoking post, as always, and I look forward to reading your astute comments on some other threads.

To all,

In the interest of the latest developments as regards to Mel and Lem, I offer an olive branch to all I riled up with my posts on this thread. Where we don’t see eye to eye, let’s agree to disagree <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. And to those who agreed with me, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />.

Mel,

Glad to see you back!

((( Mel )))

I know that you know how happy I am that you are here -

Now everyone else does !!!


Respectfully yours,
Carnation

Thanks Carnation. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Now, I so hope this thread, and all reminders of this ugliness drop to the 12th page so we can get back to the business at hand!

Whoo Hooo!!

MelodyLane - YOU ROCK!!

Kim

UVA


Why thank you! That is nice of you to say.

You sounded done with this thread but I had a few more thoughts to add about some of your other points.


I had purposly only commented on the procedural issues in my last post because I hadn't quite thought out and sorted out my opinion on the other matters. Since then, I have and I find out it wasn't necessary. And yet, after all that contemplation, I figured there could be little harm in sharing it. I don't think anything I have to say will be particularly controversial and, my hope is that some of it will be helpful (to someone or just to me to have written it out so I can lay it to rest <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ).


This is undoubtably true.

Further, there are definite categories of opinions. Some deal with thngs that can be researched and verified such as: Harley Marriage Builder principles, the composition of the surface of the moon, etc.

Some deal with preferences or experiences such as: "I like blue." "I'm cold."

For the former, certainly sources can be offered and debate can ensue. For the latter, it's a bit of a pointless discussion to have. Certainly someone knows what they experience or what they prefer. Furthermore, if I say "I like blue." today and tomorrow I say "I do not like blue" both statements can be equally valid and true. We see that all the time with people's chanigng opinions on affairs. A WS might come here saying "The affair is the best thing that ever happened" and 2 years later say "This was the most terrible thing ever." Arguing that they don't REALLY feel the former way is like arguing whether or not someone likes blue. Given time, thoughts, opinions, attitudes and feelings change. Thank goodness...

The latter category tends to be much more stable and static - with changes only coming periodically with new advances or innovations.


Right again!

Some opinions are clearly stupid. Thinking the moon is made of green cheese is an absurd notion gven the data we have about the composition about the surface of the moon.

I think, though, that a very clear distinction should be made about the stupidity of an idea and the stupidity of a person. I think most of us (probably all of us) have held a couple of stupid ideas in our heads as we've travelled through life. You know, those "..but it seemed like such a good idea at the time..." moments?

Asserting the stupidity of an idea is appropriate for a message board. Asserting the stupidity of a person is not (in my opinion.) There lies the line. (I don't know if it was crossed in this case - that point at least is moot now.)

I wonder if the issue here is with the word 'respect.' On the one hand, it's easy to see the delineation between respect for a person and for an idea (I think), on the other it seems to be very easy to loose sight of that respect when someone stubbornly clings to an idea you feel is pretty stupid. So, perhaps, respect isn't the standard we should be reaching for here. Maybe what we all need to consider is whether or not we can show a little more grace to people who might be in a place in their lives to hold a stupid idea.

I imagine it's a bit strange to hear an athiest talk about the concept of grace (though if there was any draw to religion for me, it would be that concept - it's a beautiful idea.)

So maybe, rather than trying so hard to respect something we find unrespectable, what we really need to do is try to add a bit more grace into our communication with people who disagree with us. After all, who among us isn't in need of a little grace, now and then?

And, the wonderful thing about grace, is that it doesn't interfere with the truth. Nor does it imply coddling. Just a generosity of spirit, mercy, love, and forgiveness for imperfection.


I don't think the two items are mutually exclusive.

Perhaps Penatlykill's experience is that her marriage was hurt by both the messenger AND the affair. Certainly that seems to be their experience as they relate it. I think everyone can see how the content of the message (she had an affair) was damaging. But, I do think there is validity to expressing that the DELIVERY of the message was also damaging.

The closest analogy I can think of is that sometimes it is medically necessary to amputate a limb in order to preserve life. There's a big difference between a medical amputation, done in a hospital with general anesthesia and follow up care and having the limb cut off with an axe! I can even imagine a scenario in which the unfortunate person might hold an opinion that she'd have preferred the alternative (even up to death) than the violent, painful trauma of such an amputation.

After the fact it's easy to argue "Yeah, but you're alive.." but it's impossible to measure another's reaction to suffering and stress. The only valid measure is to ask the person.. and be aware that their opinion might change or might have changed. And, if it differs from how you might have experienced the situation, it doesn't invalidate their experience any more than someone being cold when you're not cold invalidates your experience.


Yes.


It depends on the type of opinion (see above) but, I suspect you're talking about opinions on factual matters so we agree.

And, that's all I have to say about that! (And, I feel better for having said it so, in my opinion, it was worth saying.)

Mys

well being from the wilds of civilization and with croc's in the back paddock and Roo's in the main street - all true trust me I'm a public servant - I dont know what all the fuss is about.

If I dont like a post I move this arrow thingy to the top of the page and click it and I get moved to somewhere else or I hit that red box with the X that looks like the flag of southern independence - at least THATS what all the people I have got to know from the lower bits of the USA say the X is - I dont understand it at all. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Maybe I'm just too pratical - now wheres my bailing wire I have to go fix the motor on the brush cutter and get the sprayer working. And I need the shovel & a hessian bag as there is a BIG BIG dugite snake in my front yard & I want to move him back to the bush ... now where did he go ,,?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Hi, myschae.

Quote:
========================================
Perhaps Penatlykill's experience is that her marriage was hurt by both the messenger AND the affair. Certainly that seems to be their experience as they relate it. I think everyone can see how the content of the message (she had an affair) was damaging. But, I do think there is validity to expressing that the DELIVERY of the message was also damaging.

The closest analogy I can think of is that sometimes it is medically necessary to amputate a limb in order to preserve life. There's a big difference between a medical amputation, done in a hospital with general anesthesia and follow up care and having the limb cut off with an axe! I can even imagine a scenario in which the unfortunate person might hold an opinion that she'd have preferred the alternative (even up to death) than the violent, painful trauma of such an amputation.

After the fact it's easy to argue "Yeah, but you're alive.." but it's impossible to measure another's reaction to suffering and stress. The only valid measure is to ask the person.. and be aware that their opinion might change or might have changed. And, if it differs from how you might have experienced the situation, it doesn't invalidate their experience any more than someone being cold when you're not cold invalidates your experience.
========================================

I rarely post "me too" posts, but this was especially well said, Myschae.

The penalty's marriage was most assuredly harmed by the delivery methodology of the message. I will take it a step further out and disagree with the good Dr's Harley and some of the folks here (most of whom I highly respect) and simply state the following observation; I am personally unsure that had this message never been delivered, that the marriage would have suffered in the future because of the non-disclosure.

I think that anyone here that has read my posts knows how much I love truth. There is a responsibility that goes along with truth that many people fail to understand.

I was once asked privately if a person should reveal an affair that was over, and that would never be repeated, simply so that person could alleviate himself of the pain of his guilt. I told him no.

I don't want to inflame or incite another huge debate with my post. I do want to say that where humans are concerned, and excepting religious beliefs, that there simply is no 'one size fits all' plan for every situation. I do think that the Harley's plan is solid and that exposure of the great majority of affairs is the right thing to do.

All the best,
Gimble

Melody,

You know, a few years ago you and I haven’t seen eye to day and we “clashed” a lot. On one stage I didn’t liked you at all (and I’m sure you felt the same about me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />). However, with time I’ve learned to accept and appreciate you for the great person you are...and I’ve learned to accept and appreciate your forthright style and personality which happen to be very different than mine. People have different personalities and different posting styles and that’s okay. Therefore, although I might not always like and/or agree with a specific style, I can still appreciate the person! Also, I know many times a straight and no-nonsense approach like yours is very much needed around here and the most effective in some cases. You have been helpful to SO many people and are indeed a great asset for these boards.

So, I just want to say, I’m also glad you’re back! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />


<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Seems like being out of town spared me from this latest tete-a-tete.

***MY OPINION ALERT AND WARNING***

This IS the Harley's system. THEY set the rules, whatever they want them to be. THEIR opinion is "sovereign," no matter what we might agree or disagree with.

They appoint the Moderators and endow them with certain levels of power, and the same goes for the Administrator.

"I appeal to Ceasar" is a right, but no guarantee that the outcome will be what you want," not much different than in the choice to Recover or Divorce.

God is Sovereign whether we choose to accept that or not. God sets the rules and gives us the Free Will to obey or not to obey. WE reap the consquences REGARDLESS of our opinion BECAUSE God, not us, sets the rules.

The Harley's are "god" on their own system. Like it, lump it, or leave it.

MB forums are TOOLS to be used, nothing more, for those who choose to see any value in them. Try the TOW board for a different set of opinions and values, if you can stomach it.

The NUMBER ONE reason any of us is on this system is to help OUR marriages. We STAY, by choice, to try to "pass on" some of the help we ourselves received, but we are NOT "mandated" or "commanded" to stay. If MB, or anything else, becomes more destructive to ourselves and our marriages than helpful, it's TIME to leave and leave "helping" to others.

Just beware the "blind leading the blind" syndrome, especially from those who have not "passed through the fire" to "Recovered."

Sliding back into the snowy cold of the Northlands.....where it's been 30 below zero with lots of snow on the ground.

Back to sunny NC in a few days!

Their system. Their rules. Don't waste time arguing the point with the one who is sovereign. Simply submit, regardless of emotional feelings, or leave and follow one's own path.

But I have to admit, leaving is growing in its appeal when the "aggravation" no longer seems "worth the effort or the time." Perhaps that is precisely where Melody, Pepperband, Lemonman, and others, are at this point in THEIR time investment in other's problems that takes away from their own marriage or time.

God bless.

I've seen you make this point a couple of times recently, mys. And I think it's an important one.

Here's a true story:

A young man and his mother were estranged, for lots of really huge reasons. The young man went into the military. Very shortly after his discharge, he was killed in accident on his former base. The military notified the person listed as his emergency contact on his records -- the poor woman so listed was awakened in the middle of the night to be told the young man she'd seen grow up was dead of a smashed-in skull, and she was the one who had to start calling his immediate family with the news. She did. But what to do about the young man's mother? The mother hated this woman, bitterly. Think of hating someone for years, and then having that person to be the one to wake you up in the middle of the night to tell you your child is dead. So the lady in question didn't call the mother -- she called the mother's brother, and told him what had happened and that he needed to call his sister.

The truth sets us free, but that doesn't mean all ways of telling it are equal.