Jumping in quick cause I see you are online... I haven't read your thread yet... but I dooo have a tendency to be a bit compulsive...

Is she just cutting the ADs cold? How long has she been on them?

I went on them and really appreciated the new perspective they gave me but when I went off them, I had horrible withdrawal. I'm a mixed bag of feelings about antidepressants...

Traic, one page one, you said:

This hit me like a stone... fact is, 2 years after the fact, I still haven't gotten that answer from my W. The two times I've demanded that answer both resulted in a series of unfortunate events.

What that has forced me to do is find the answer myself.

When I did that, it brought a lot of peace. The whole concept of being blackmailed emotionally gets thrown right out the window. If you think about it, you have to actually give consent to be emotionally blackmailed. And finding your own truths, in your own heart and acting from a place of a greater love recinds that consent...

Jumping in again to tell you both... I used to feel this way. But I don't anymore, because I've come to realize that I'll never settle for anything less than a great marriage. That doesn't mean it's going to be easy, or happen tomorrow... but for my sake, for my kids sake and for the sake of the woman I love, this marriage is going to rebud and flourish. Now in the end, it may turn out to be impossible, but until that happens, I'm going to never remember what's most important to me. And that certainly doesn't include any 'settling'.



She won't. The fog clears. Eventually the realize. Some slowly and cautiously (like my W), some in the flash of devasting epiphany (like me). Either way, it happens...

LovingAnyways, that post was brilliant.

It's kind of what I was trying to get at with the Emotional Blackmail thing, but you explained it waaaaay better.

There's some excellent advice here... and I personally think you are on the right track, just keep at it.

J

Thanks dewt,

I was hoping you would get a chance to read my tragic story. Take your time. I am half a world away from most of you so our timezones don't match up that much (except for you insomniacs). I also spend very limited time on the PC because it creates problems in the house. One of the symptoms of WW is paranoia that I am always talking to someone about her.

I don't think she has ever started the AD. She only got the prescription last week and I think it is still in her purse. I don't ask.

I wrote this in an email to someone but I am going to post it in case it is of benefit to someone else. I confess that I am paraphrasing Douglas Adams a bit. I have reached a point in the situation where this pretty much sums up how I feel about things: "For the longest time, nothing happened. And then, suddenly and without any warning, nothing continued to happen. In fact, nothing insisted quite stubbornly on continuing to happen until it actually became quite annoying and there was simply no way to keep nothing from not happening."

I sent that email 9 days ago. It still applies - only now add a minor depression on top of it. Don't get in a panic though. I think I am mostly okay. Just pretend I am Eor ("Don't worry about me - nobody ever does"). I sense a lot of my doubts in things I have heard you say on another thread and just wanted to get your perspective. Motivation maybe. I dunno.

I had a scary thought this morning - the thought of listening to my DD's cry themselves to sleep at night without WW at home. That was a cold splash of water. Enough to get me through the day anyway. That is all I have right now. One day at a time. Just when I think I have reached the end, something comes up. Many times it is one of you. Thanks for that. I should say that more, I guess. I am just tired.

I wish I could elaborate but cannot. It just seemed like a strange comment and maybe I am over-sensitive. All she said was "this has gone on too long". I inferred the rest. My perception is that she might want to tell WW it is time to make some decisions. To be honest, it occurred to me she might tell WW it was time to separate. Keep in mind this is all my imagination revolving around one comment. So what if she tells WW to separate? I will live with whatever choice WW makes. I have no alternative.

Timing is everything. So is how you word it. So don’t talk to your W about what I suggest until you are comfortable with it. HOWEVER do not mix up your fears with how you perceive her feeling. Make sure the reason you delay talking to her is really not your fear for what might be her actions.

I truly believe that we can heavily influence our feelings. If you are not clinically depressed then I truly believe you can “snap out of it”. It’s a lot of work and not easy but the methodology is basically based on realizing you are down and not allowing your mind to stray to the thoughts that are keeping you down. For example: you deny yourself the “privilege” of letting your mind dwells on pictures of OM and WW. So if you are feeling down and realize you have been dwelling on some negative thought you basically pull that thought into the forefront and analyze it: “Is this though beneficial to me and my goals?”

Chances are the answer will be no. If that is the answer then you push that thought away. If you are not sure you analyze it further. If the answer is yes then the thought isn’t really cause for depression but a base to work from.

This isn’t yoga or crystals or anything. It is just using rational thought to control an emotional period. I survived my son’s year of critical illness using this method of thought.

I have been telling you to react. To not allow things to be in a way you don’t want. Really haven’t had to push you because you have all the time been doing so on your own initiative. I have seldom read of a more reactive response to an affair than yours. However I am still a bit scared that you are now letting things slow down and then there is the danger of things firming up in the present situation. The fear of that happening is probably why the MC says “it’s time”. Based on what you post I don’t expect your W to pack up and leave soon. I am certain you two will remain married ... for now.

What I am afraid of is that you two won’t move on. Reconciliation in my mind is NOT surviving an affair. Reconciliation is building up a marriage so that it is better than before the affair – thereby more or less affair-proofing it. If you think of it – a marriage based on two people committing to each other after a trauma can be a very powerful thing. Even if the trauma is self-inflicted.

Don’t underestimate your wife. She is probably going through similar emotions as you are. I would guess that her time is about equally split between R and separation – just as yours is. And I think her commitment to NC indicates she realizes that although her marriage might be over then the OM is not her future. So possibly following my suggestion to humbly and sincerely ask her to follow you on a path of reconciliation might be exactly what she needs right now – a distant and weak light you can both aim for.

Don’t forget you have the advantage of us as a sounding board but she is probably alone with her thoughts.

Funny thing about timing. I just got a call from WW and spent an hour on the phone. Maybe ToddAC was right. I think tonight is going to be a long night...

She did say she never filled the AD prescription. She had quit IC. I have asked her to get both of those things and I am going to at least show her MB and encourage her to read and, if she is comfortable in time, post.

I finally got WW to start the AD. That is something anyway.

I just wanted to update because I had what I affectionately call the "Bigger talk" with WW on Wednesday night. I was not trying to pass any DJ's. I was very quiet and calm and just trying to take the opportunity to explain how I really feel. We never ever talk about any of this. We play house and pretend like nothing is wrong. If she would just talk to me once in a while, maybe that would help - but she never does.

This is a summary of what I told her and it was all heart-felt. I had no agenda other than to lay on the table my feelings.

You may think this was a bit over-the-top and ripe with DJ's. I never talked down to her in any way. I was simply taking the opportunity to let her know exactly what I was feeling - that I too had doubts but that I was committed to trying. She became very affectionate for the entire weekend. I was still unhappy. She still has not said one word about her commitment. She never says one word about what she is feeling or what she wants. All she has ever said is that she wants to be with DD's. Well, DD's are here with me in our house. She is now taking AD meds. She did not ever visit MB. Said she was too busy. She did spend a lot of time in the garden.

Wednesday PM:
1st) Remember my outburst of a few weeks ago that was not triggered by a phone call? Result of that was we had set a date for her departure of Feb 23rd. Arbitrary date but what the heck. She had that date planted firmly in her mind and, even though there was no movement for her leaving (i.e. bags packed, tickets bought, etc.) She said she had programmed herself mentally for that date. I think what got her to make that phone call is that the departure date was looming. Even though we had set all that aside and agreed that she was staying, I think the date still affected her. It was something real and tangible and I think it either scared her or else she was disappointed that it was coming and going and she was still here. I just don't know.

I think her contrition was a false alarm so I had the Bigger talk with her last night as we were going to sleep. Basically I told her that we might be able to salvage the M but that we both would have to work very hard. Right now I feel like I am on hold until she makes up her mind what she wants to do. That takes a lot of effort and I don't think I can wait forever. Some day, and hopefully soon, she will have to decide. I said what she did hurt me very much as nobody else ever could have. What she did is not something one spouse does to another and that I am still bleeding. I need to heal and I cannot begin to heal while we are in this stasis. This pretending to play house is not enough. It is not what I want. I am willing to give the M everything but only if she is too. But we cannot begin anything while she maintains contact. If she feels that OM will make her happier than anybody on earth, she should go. If she feels that she is ashamed, there is too much hurt to ever recover, she should NOT go - we should try to work it out. Together and working very hard, we might get through this. I reminded her that I loved her and that I was willing to make many sacrifices for her but that I did not want to wait forever. This is not a passive process. We can't just sit around and hope some day she is no longer in love with OM and then decide to start working on the M and that certainly won't happen as long as she keeps calling. I don't know why I think this but I do think she is still calling and now I understand how she was doing it. She made one simple mistake. I don't care to prove it one way or the other. She needs to prove to me the calls have stopped (when they do). The only thing she said during the entire event was that when I commented that she had hurt me badly, she said she knew and was sorry. I replied that she was not sorry because, if she were sorry, she wouldn't keep doing it. She never said anything after that.

I think my one-sided conversation went well and was understood. I think it was a necessary thing. The question is was it the right time? At least she started AD.

Thursday AM:
(This is more of what I remember from the Bigger chat)
Today I still see no words out of her mouth but she is being very clingy. I was pretty brutally honest with WW last night without being angry or issuing ultimatums. I told her, in no certain order, that what she did hurt me very much. That the thought passed my mind every single day that I hoped today would be the day she decided to tell me she was leaving. Many times it is just a fleeting thought but I have it nevertheless. What she did was selfish. She chose to get married. She chose to have kids. They were her responsibility. Nobody ever promised it was always fun. There was no excuse for what she did. The phone calls were pathetic and embarrassing. I felt dirty having to count my cash every night. I did not know what she was waiting for but she needed to understand that I was not going to sit around on my thumbs waiting for to get over the OM and then maybe think about the M. I wanted her to leave so I could begin my healing or I wanted her to commit to R so I could begin my healing but one way or the other I needed to get on with life. I would give everything I had to R but only if she was willing to help. I refused to do it all on my own. She had no right to do to me what she did. It took everything I had to swallow my pain and suffering and attempt to R. I was tired. I would keep going as long as I could but I was getting tired. It was time she started to pick up some of the load. I was not satisfied with what we had and never would be. I wanted a happy M and a happy family - with her or without her. Keep in mind I am trying to capture thoughts. I never came across as harsh or demanding. It came across as explaining to her how I felt at this time.

Friday PM:
Everything is still on track with R AFAIK. My talk seems to have had no ill effects. In fact, yesterday was a super day. She laughed a lot, we were close. We hung the hammock and she got in for a while. I went upstairs to lie down and watch TV. She came up and got in bed with me and we spooned.

You just never know. Today might be the day she decides to tell me she is leaving. That would be fine. I would prefer that today be the day she tells me she is staying and will attempt R. i honestly don't expect to hear that from her any time soon - if ever.

Maybe the MC is right. Maybe this has gone on long enough. I think right now I am trying to follow my own advice and try to throw myself on the ground and miss. I am tired of this "waiting game". I just wish that WW would say something - one way or the other. How can I get her to leave one of us - either the OM or me?

Gee – my own talk. I guess I feel honored.

I think the talk should have moved your relationship out of the rut it was in. If properly timed it could have moved it in the right direction. But it all depends on the will of both you and your wife. In a sense it depends on who is the dominant personality in your partner; W or WW.

Now you have to keep some things in mind. You have had time, this board and other resources to think, decide, plan and implement some plan, i.e. the “Bigger talk (BT)”. Your W should be allowed some time to digest this and do her own thinking and planning. I am not counting the time she has spent alone but the time after you gave the BT.

Previous to that time she only felt a pain and had some imagined and unclear solutions to that pain. After the BT you offered a solution but she needs time to compare it to the solutions she might have had and decide.

Basically you are selling her a concept (reconciliation). As in all sales you are allowed to remind her and eventually press her. And as with sales nothing is as irksome as an insistent salesman. So if you talked to her Wednesday you are fully entitled to talk to her again. Restate your commitment but emphasize this is a two way deal. Don’t’ press too hard for an answer but 2-3 days from that talk you can be firmer regarding an answer.

The BT is based on honesty and frankness. In a sense it is a lowering of the guard. However, it does require feedback from the spouse. Don’t keep your guard lowered for too long.

I am not too happy with some of your comments (tsk tsk). Do you really think she didn’t give jumping into bed with OM a second thought? If that is your true sentiment then honestly I wouldn’t bother with reconciliation. It would indicate her morals and values are so shot she isn’t worth keeping. As much as I hate adultery I seriously doubt many people slip into it “easily”. I guess the affair progressed and at many steps your WW contemplated what she was doing. Sure she took the wrong step each and every time but I doubt she did it with a clear conscience or “easily”. Thoughts and comments like the one you made are counterproductive to reconciliation.

About her posting on MB... I have my doubts. I sense different attitudes or philosophies here on MB. I for example think the end-goal (reconciliation) is all important. That is based on TRUE reconciliation with radical honesty and the meeting of needs. Other seem to believe that repentance is necessary for reconciliation. Personally I believe repentance, true forgiveness and total acceptance of blame are all a part or consequence of true reconciliation: milestones on the path.

Look at the reception WIL wife got here. Sure there were many who welcomed her but others gave her quite a lashing. I DO NOT WANT TO ENTER A DEBATE ABOUT THIS. Let’s allow Tri to keep his thread! I just think a WW dipping her toes into reconciliation is not going to accept a lashing as part of “healing”. Irrespective of whether she deserves a lashing or not. I believe it is better to welcome with open arms and guide on the path. Do that and the lashing will be self-inflicetd and more efective.

However I would get her MB literature and I strongly recommend you two get some phone sessions with the MB counselors.

The offensive comment was not made to WW. It was just an afterthought for my post. By her own words with the MC, she was madly in love with the OM two weeks after knowing him. Seems a bit fast to me. I will edit my post just in case.

I will give it some time to settle and see what she decides. She does need to get off the dime and decide something. It is not that I am losing patience - it is that I am losing interest. This whole thing depends on us both wanting R and, more importantly, both wanting it at the same time. She might wait a while and decides she wants it but who is to say I will still want it by then. I am trying my best and still have a little steam left but, for how long?

BTW, ToddAC coined the "BT" term. Go ahead and feel honored though. You deserve it.

"For the longest time, nothing happened. And then, suddenly and without any warning, nothing continued to happen. In fact, nothing insisted quite stubbornly on continuing to happen until it actually became quite annoying and there was simply no way to keep nothing from not happening."

You nailed it here, Tracionado. I've been doing this stuff for almost 3 years, weeks and weeks of nothing happening. Then one day I woke up and realized that I'd lost my love for my husband.

The anti-D's will help, but it usually takes about 20 days or so.

I hope you are resting up and taking excellent care of yourself, because recovery is even harder. Once she makes her commitment to work on the relationship (and she will), you will start second guessing your decision to have her back. Oh, yeah, it's lots of fun.

A wise dude once said this... I thought of you when I read it.

I could really relate to what you said about "who's to say I will still want it by then?"

In fact, really relate. I struggled with this a great deal.

I have some thoughts to share on this, but don't have the time to work them into an intelligble post. I would end up sounding like Doulas Adams trying to explain something while suffering from a concussion. It would not be pretty. It would be like a run-on sentence that dropped dead from exhaustion.

I will come back later...

J

dewt,

That "wise person" sounds like an idiot. Don't listen to him. Nonsensical ramblings from a deluded mind. Post-traumatic stress disorder maybe.

Actually this is what I was hinting at in adrianc's thread just now. I think it goes back to something I said a long while back. The quote from Willy Wonka - be carful what you wish for because your wish might actually come true.

The simple fact is that, in our position, we are so focused on everything else, the Plan, WW, NC, R, that we don't look after ourselves (mentally). If WW does come out of the fog and decides she wants the M more than anything on earth, that leaves me in a huge void. All those things that had been occupying me are suddenly gone. We are suddenly left with having to deal with our feelings and, if we are not careful, might blow up and call the whole thing off. I have a real fear of this and I don't know why. I am going for first IC day after tomorrow (or "ba'ad bukra" as I learned last night in arabic class with WW). I think this is what I need help most on. I think this goes back to my feelings at the beginning of this particular thread. Just look at the thread subject.

I think I will follow up on what Bigger said i.e. try to "close the deal". I will give it until the weekend (my weekend - not yours) because she will have had a few more days on AD and I will have had my first IC by then.

I am reasonably happy with my Plan A. I have myself under control and I am being me. I don't give what I think WW wants a second thought any more - I am just being the best me I can be. Heck - I would marry me. I have a clear conscience and am happy with me. I am not happy with WW and the state of our M at the moment. I recognize that I am a mental mess. If WW becomes W again, there will still be a huge mountain to climb. I can see how it is possible to go from Plan A, R, Plan D in short order. The only glue holding this together for me are DD's. If it weren't for them, I would not be writing this post now.

First of all... don't quote from Willy Wonka. That guy was insane. If you must quote, quote Wonko. He knew the score.


LOL... post-trauma? I have dreams of post-trauma. It's like a far off dream for me.

I'm technically still at trauma. I haven't earned my prefix yet. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


Being the 'betrayed' has some very serious and profound consequences on person. Not just emotionally, and psychologicaly, but physically as well. Extreme weight loss, anxiety, even chemical imbalances in our brains so bad that we take potentially dangerous pharmaceutical interventions just so that we can function...

That's alot to manage.

So we have to look after ourselves bigtime.

I'm very fortunate that Dylan, who is an excellent cook, keeps feeding me. I think she likes me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Focusing on spiritual matters has done me an enormous amount of good. Reading scripture helps me gain an appreciation of what I should expect from myself in Life. Prayer has given me hope and a forum to discuss my fears. Most of all, learning to let go and simply 'have Faith' has given me a freedom that I'm not sure I could explain in less than 2508 words.

Which is a lot of typing for someone who deletes as much as I do.

IC helped, to a point... but my personal issues have all been talked to death and all that remains now is action. Consistent actions. Consistently. Over time. Apparently lots of time. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


And there were a lot of times that it boiled down to me having an ultimate and profound responsibility to provide my son with an intact family. One day I'm going to thank him for giving me the stregnth when mine was all run dry.

As for the mountain... yes, it's a helluva climb.

But think of the view once you are up there.

I think that might have been the coolest thing I've ever said.

I was going to go on with the analogy and ask you to imagine yourself standing up there (with your lovely Wife) looking back down the slope and remembering this time. I was going to then ask you to imagine how different your prespective might be...

But I won't... because that would be too much...

Alright...

As for me, I'm a total and complete Harley Failure.

I totally blew Plan A.

Like 3 times.

My Plan B was a Self-Modified-Harley-Based-Modified-Plan-B was laughable in the same way that a 64-car-pile-up might be...

Noooo...

I stopped fighting for my marriage when we separated this fall. It was my final boundry. I have taken of my ring. My wife has maintained that she wants a divorce for 2 solid years and I have officially 'given up'.

That being said, we live in side by side apartments joined by a hole cut through my sons bedroom, into her living room.

She also is single.

And hot.

And she cooks for me. And we hang out and enjoy each others company.

The boy likes to brag about how cool his divorced parents are.

And...

We got 2, count 'em, TWO bathrooms. (And 2 kitchens, but that's kind of pointless...)

It's weird... when I 'gave up' trying to master the situation, it allowed me the space to TRULY accept that 'it is what it is'.

The fact is... my Wife is a person of integrity. For her to cross that line was a very very bigh thing.

I look back at our life together and I can appreciate why she could've been miserable enough for the insanity of an affair to have seemed an option. Nothing justifies an affair... but (in general) they don't just happen out of thin air.

And there are a lot of things I can work on to make myself a better choice for ANY potential spouse...

Anyhooo... somehow all this stuff I wrote ties in together and makes sense, but I forgot how. And to tell the truth, I'm too tired to try and remember...

...so I'm gonna go off to bed now...

Hope you be doin' ok, m'man.

Read more Douglas Adams. It helps.

Right now the only Harley I want to listen to is my softail deuce. That has a sound I never get tired of.

sweeeeet......

Well if that doesn't just beat everything - just when I had reached the conclusion that it could not possible get any worse than it already is - it surprised me...and didn't.

I'm having a bad time. I have been psyching myself up try to keep up my energy until 1:00PM today. It seems lately I have been checking my Outlook calendar almost continuously thinking if I could just hold off a little longer that maybe this IC appointment would be what I needed. I had no idea what to expect – I just felt like I needed help. I went. Excuse my Spanish but la pinche doctora no pudo dejar el maldito teléfono. Sorry. I just had to say that. No, I got there and was starting to talk about why I was there and she got a phone call which was far more important than my little problem. Apparently the call was so important that she felt the urgency to make her own call after she hung up. I sat there for a couple of minutes trying to remember what I had said to her only a few moments before and I couldn't remember. To be honest, I couldn't remember exactly why I was there anyway. It got very confusing and I suddenly felt very. I kept think she would end the call but it just kept going on. Suddenly I just felt an urgent need to leave. Somehow this all felt wrong. I left. I still don't think she ever hung up the telephone. Who knows? If you have read any of my posts you may have picked up on the fact that I don't believe in coincidence. Either Someone was trying to tell me something or this doctor is just a complete incompetent and Someone was trying to tell me that. Don't know.

All the way back to my office I just kept wondering how much I had left. I had set my hopes so high on IC. I don't know why. I didn't have any real expectations. I didn't know what to expect at all. I just know I am a mess right now and thought maybe this would help. Well it didn't. I am drained. To be honest I sat down and felt like crying. I wanted to - but I can't. Why can't I? I think I used them all up last August.

Oh well, that is my 5 minutes of self-pity. Thanks for letting me vent. Please keep your 2x4's in the woodshed. I feel a little better now. Right now I need to try to get WW the help she needs. She hurts worse than I do I think. Oops. Got a meeting. Have to get the game face on.

That's a great idea. They've been doing such a good job holding up the roof... it'd be a shame to interupt them now...

Seriously, I think you did the right thing in walking out. I can understand taking a quick call, but unless someone was dying, that counsellor was totally out of line. Talk about unprofessional. Yikes.


That's a pretty compassionate thing to say. And from my point of view, fairly accurate to. I have had the experience of being both the WS and the BS. Given a choice, I'd rather face the pain of the BS. It hurts, but at least you have your integrity to help you through the rough bits. I could write a lot about this, but it would just boil down to what I just wrote.

Have a good meeting, dude.

John

Well as much as I tried, yesterday evening was tough. I had to go to town to get some chain and new new tire to make a theft-proof tire swing for DD's. It is great. I got 3/16" welded chain, steel-belted radial tire, threaded caribiners (sic?) which I peened so they can't back off, a $4500 satellite based multi-angle motion activated video surveillance system with realtime feed for monitoring on the WWW as well as automated SMS to my cellphone is case someone tries to steal the swing again. A 20,000 volt DC power supply to electrify the chain with a six-digit deactivation code. Just let that 6 yr old down the street try to outsmart me - he has no idea who he is playing with...I got a great idea from watching Malcolm in the Middle - laser guided bees!

Family had taken cart to driving range so I was fortunately alone when I got home. When they got back, I asked WW to look at her thread and try to post something so she went immediately to PC. Unfortunately her sister was online so she got distracted chatting to her. I made kids dinner, sent them to bed and then I just felt alone. I was also still in shock over the IC appointment from hades. I was having trouble breathing. WW did come up and I have to give her credit. She was super last night and made me feel a little better. We didn't talk much but she held me until we went to sleep. I explained a little about the IC gone awry so she would know what was bothering me.

This morning I still feel in shock. I don't disagree with dewt. I never thought a trained psychiatrist would behave that way. It just seemed totally unprofessional. On the other hand, I guess if she were a really good doctor, she would be back in the USA making big bucks. Now I guess I know the reason she is working in Saudi Arabia. Let me give you all a heads up. If you are American and are ever overseas in a third world country and get sick, don't go to an American doctor. There is a reason why they are there. Kind of like the old story about going to a new town and wanting to get a hair cut. There are two barbers in this town. One has a nice clean shop, nice chair, nice tools, clean uniform and a perfect haircut. The other barber is a complete slob, shop is a mess, everything dirty, he wears an old torn smock and his hair is a mess. Which one do you go to for a haircut? You go to the slob because he is obviously the one who cuts the other guy's hair and gives the perfect haircut.

Do you know who make the best doctors over here? The Indians and that is no joke. I'll take an Indian doctor any day.

I really need to shake this off. What is wrong with me? Somebody slap me please!