I thought I would give a one-week update. I think I may be depressed.

It has been a quiet week in Lake Wobegon. No major events to speak of (maybe a record for me). Earlier in the week I bought WW a dozen roses for no apparent reason. She loved them. Vday came. I bought her a nice V card with a reasonably appropriate sentiment written. I woke her up to give her the card. She seemed to like it. No presents nor flowers though. She called during the day to see if I wanted to go to the horse farm for dinner. We did. After dinner, kids ran off to play so we walked over to see the horse jumping. I had been slightly depressed or sad all day. Guess the thought of Vday in this sitch? I don’t know. I tried my best not to let WW know anything was wrong. We talked a little but not too much. That is the custom these days anyway. Walking over to horse jumping, she took my arm because ground was unsteady. Was a chilly night so I put my arm around her. On the walk back, I took her arm to get across the grass. Once on pavement, I let go – gently of course. I would say I was gentlemanly more than anything else. I had both been sick for several days and I was miserable this day too. I could barely keep my eyes open when we got to bed. Even so, I did not let on that I felt bad. She initiated SF and, after, I just crashed.

Wednesday was busy at work and I was not feeling much better. Still dizzy with a headache. Wednesday night we went to Khobar (the two of us) to buy some rope for a tire swing we wanted to put in our tree for the kids, correct a wrongly directed Western Union we were trying to send to her sister to pay for the DHL of the osito (previous thread) and I had invited her for Philippino food at a restaurant she likes. Walking to the restaurant, she saw a pashmina that she had looked at previously. She said “buy it for me”. I said “no”. While we were eating, conversation was scarce. I felt like I wanted to be somewhere else. We chatted a little but in short sentences. I had invited her to go to Bahrain the next day (yesterday) to get her hair done, eat pork and drink beer to which she had eagerly agreed. During the Philippino food, I asked where she wanted to eat the following day. She couldn’t decide. Said it didn’t matter. My mistake now was asking whether she even wanted to eat at all or just come straight back after hair appointment. She said she didn’t care. It was up to me. I told her that was fine – we would just come straight back. I was angry but I said it calmly anyway. She still knew I was angry. After a few seconds, she said we should stay and eat Mexican food so I said that was fine. The rest of the night was uneventful.

Thursday AM we headed off for Bahrain in the taxi. We had some conversation. Not much. It was comfortable and not unpleasant – even the silence. I occasionally stroked her knee or held her hand but just briefly. I was gentlemanly and polite (or trying). I did not really want to hold her hand but knew if I did not, she would see that as PA behavior. You just have to be so careful about everything you do. Even the things you don’t do are so darn important. Stress. We got to Bahrain about an hour early so bought 0.2 KG of pork and made sandwiches in the taxi. We bought older DD ice skates and younger DD a new bicycle to Bday presents and then rushed to the Ritz for her hair appointment. I left her there and went off on my own for a few things and came back when her appointment was over. Timing worked out very well and her hair looked great. Since Toys R Us is close by, we got some more Bratz presents for DD’s and then rushed off to the restaurant so we would not miss lunch. We both had beer and pork. She was very talkative. She talked almost non-stop with very gently prodding from me. I just kept asking the right question at the right time and off she would go again. I learned a lot about cousins I never knew she had and some more scandals that had never come up before. I swear her family story could be a soap opera but it would never sell to a network because nobody would believe it was real. The whole time she is talking, I am thinking that I am unhappy. I am asking myself if R is what I really want to do. I have been in a depression for a while now and this is one of the results. I am not faltering on diverting from Plan A. I am just losing my motivation – draining my energy reserves. We drove back to Saudi and finished off the night – this time I initiated SF although I didn’t really want to. I felt she would think something was wrong if I had not.

Today I am still in a slump. I am purposely avoiding any real time spent with WW because I have a 24 hour rule about alcohol consumption. I never get into any kind of discussion with WW the following day because I know that alcohol, by itself, is a depressant and I don’t trust my feelings – which depression am I suffering if you know what I mean. Even so, she put the girls to cleaning their room and was yelling at them so much that I had to go outside. I couldn’t listen any more. She was not going over the top so I did not interfere but she was reaching the rim. Finally rooms were clean and kids went out. I came inside and, since it is windy, slightly chilly but otherwise a nice day, I took a pillow and went in the backyard to lay down on the swing and maybe even take a nap. This is in full view of the downstairs of the house so I was in no way hiding. I just felt like being alone but did not want to do so in a way that might be viewed by WW as anger. Before long she came outside saying she had been looking for me. She was tired (sick at stomach, nausea) and wanted to go lie down and take a nap and wanted me to go lie down with her. I asked if I could watch TV to which she said no problem. She just didn’t want to be alone.

We are going in a couple of hours to take DD to try the new ice skates. She needs some makeup. Other than that, it will be a quiet afternoon.

Okay, that is about where we are. WW has still never said she is committed to R. I have no evidence she has broken NC in two weeks. I also am not looking. I am going out of my way to not catch her. Even so, I do believe she has not called OM. All she has said to me is that she will let me know how she feels at the end of February. I don’t think she will decide to pack and leave but I still have the possibility in mind because she has never said she is going to stay. I think maybe that is what is depressing me – the fact that no decision has ever been made one way or the other and I feel like I am being blackmailed emotionally. My instinct is that it is just her form of leverage. I hold almost all the cards at the table and I am looking at a straight flush. She holds very few cards and lately I am beginning to wonder if it might not be a good idea to empower WW just a tad so she did not feel helpless and alone. I was beginning this discussion with ToddAC but we had to put that on hold.

All I know is things are going smoothly, I think NC is still intact for the past two weeks, we have had no more crises, no more ultimatums and I am unhappy. I guess I will just keep slogging on carrying on for the two of us. I am thinking about trying to get into IC now. Maybe that is what I need. I don’t know. I feel emotionally detached from WW. I love her – but can live without her. I still want R. I still want a happy marriage and family. I am also willing to forego it. I am not apathetic – I am just tired I guess. Maybe it is depression? I don’t know…

And that’s the story from my home town – where all the women are strong, all the men are good looking and all the children are above average…..

tracionado, it sounds like you are doing as well as you can under the circumstances. I went back and read some of your original posts, and you have certainly had a lot to deal with. I commend you for staying in your M and giving your FWW another chance. I wish you strength in your R.

It must be very interesting living where you do....and perhaps a bit isolating for your W? I'm only guessing about that part, I've never been to the middle east, let alone lived there.

I hope that your daughter enjoys the skates. Skating was a big part of my life, and I learned a lot from the sport that I can apply at this point in my life. Such as: When you fall down, you get right back up again and continue the program. The next jump you do is the most important one.

Take care.

Just got back from skating. I was so proud of DD. She watches "the Ice Princess" non-stop. All the kids were amazed by her white skates. She skated great. I think it was well worth it considering she will probably only skate in them four or five more times before she outgrows them and it is off to buy new skates.

We have lived in the ME for 7 years. Dubai, then Muscat, then back to Dubai and now Saudi. WW loved the other places. She complains that she is alone here. It is a mental prision she has created for herself. She is justifying her unhappiness, reinventing history. Many people love this place. Some have worked here 35 years. No longer need the money but this is ther home. Kids grow up here, go to college and come back. Home is what you make of it. I don't have much sympathy for WW on the loneliness. She could just as easily live in Mexico City and be lonely. Her family is here. She forgot that (or maybe never understood it). There are plenty of Latinas around. She is outgoing and makes friends easily. She just won't do it here. Her loneliness is largely her own invention. She gets no sympathy from me.

The biggest differences in Saudi are: she cannot drive outside camp, she has to wear an abaya (the black thing) over her clothes outside the camp - well technically all she has to put on are loose fitting clothes that cover to the feet and hands but she has no loose fitting clothes, there is no pork, no alcohol (at least not LEGAL) and we have to organize our lives around prayer times and those change every day as days get longer or shorter so we have to keep a calendar. That last one annoys me too.

The other ones that annoy me are the 10 items or less/cash only lanes are useless because apparently Saudi women can't read Arabic. If you have a traffic accident with a Saudi, it is, by definition, your fault and if you are second in line in the queue, you will be lucky to be the 15th served because of all the Saudi women who push in front of you (and the men aren't that much better).

It sounds good to me. Just hang in there. I think the fact that SF is still happening is very promising. Often that is missing, because the WS refuses, or the BS is hurt.

"Just hang in there" - yes that is what it seems to be about these days. This morning I got up and was just thinking. What I thought about was how I hoped today would be the day that WW would tell me she had decided to leave. Don't worry - I won't start anything. My situation is not unpleasant - it is just "empty". I feel like this is the best we are ever going to have. WW will always blame me for ruining her A. She will never see that the A was a bad choice. She will always blame me for causing her A. She will always be sad that she lost her soul mate and secretly pine away for him a little each day.

I guess deep down I always hoped that some day she would "come back to reality". Right now I don't feel like she ever will - that, if we stay together, I will just have to accept this for what it is. At this moment, I feel like WW is simply beyond hope.

It takes awhile for them to come around, but she will. Then you will have to deal with her guilt and regret. Fun, huh?

Have I mentioned you are a rock? I guess I just feel so alone. Not feeling sorry for myself - just tired. But, as I said, I am not giving up and will stay on Plan A.

When we left skating yesterday, WW was walking with DD's - holding each one's hand. I was slightly behind. That was purely logistics. You have no idea what it is like trying to walk through a popular Dhahran shopping mall on a weekend night. There are enough UFO's (Unidentified Female Objects aka those black moving things) to make your head spin and it is like one of those old "driving" video games where you have to swerve left and right to keep from hitting things. Anyway, I was watching WW walking with the DD's and thinking - that is why I am doing this.

On the other hand, I am coming to the conclusion that I may never be happy again. WW simply shows no signs of movement. I still have 10 more days to wait to see if she has decided to leave or will stick it out a little longer.

Once the OM is out of the picture, the battle is almost won. All you have to do is not LB and meet her needs the best that you can.

And this is true whether they voluntarily give up OM or if they do because of Plan B, or if it is forced in some other manner.

tracionado, I didn't mean to suggest that your W's perceived loneliness was an excuse for an A. I commend you for staying strong during what has to be an excruciating time.

Oh, and what believer said about guilt and regret? Most definitely. Sooner or later she is going to be filled with nothing but. That is very hard.

It is just my opinion, but there is a thread going on in Recovery that talks about how the BS has to stay strong throughout the entire ordeal. How important it is to exercise, eat right, all that jazz. Because stress does quite a number on the body.

Remember to take care of yourself, too, tracionado.

penaltykill,

Now you misunderstand me. I was not being defensive - you made a comment about how you felt she might feel and I have heard her say the same thing. I was really hoping to get more out of you in terms of discussion but never an apology.

Whether or not she is lonely, she thinks she is lonely and that is all that matters. Perception is everything. I am just wondering if she is truly lonely here in Saudi or if she is just lonely because she cannot see OM everyday. I am also wondering if she would even be able to differentiate between the two. She has ample opportunity not to be lonely here if she chooses. What I see right now is that she is enforcing her own lonliness or, at least, reinforcing it. No I don't think that is what caused the affair. My vote is still on MLC. Her birthday was traumatic for her. She is suddenly afraid of getting old. That is my pet theory. I don't dwell on it too much because I don't see it as relevant at the moment. It may become important later if we enter recovery. The damage is done. Right now I am focusing on Plan A.

I am concerned that she may feel painted into a corner. Maybe that is good for R or bad for R. I don't have any idea. I hold all the good cards and sometimes I feel maybe I hold too many.

No don't apologize. No need.

Oh, I run. It is about 6K around the jebels which is a normal run. If I add the golf course, it is about 11K. I lift weights every day. No beer here in Saudi (heavy sigh). I eat so healthily it drives WW crazy. I don't sleep all that well. That is my fatal flaw.

Traicionado,

Six months after my H's A, we moved to another country. I am very used to moving every so often and have no problem making friends and adapting to the new environments and cultures. But this last trip was different. I refused to make friends with anyone or get myself involved in any activities for a whole year. This was because I wasn't sure I was staying, so I didn't want to have any ties, to make it easier in case I decided to leave. I realize this is a different situation than the one your WW is in, but when I read what you wrote I thought that maybe her motivation is the same, she might not want to form attachments in case she decides to leave. Just a thought.

"I am concerned that she may feel painted into a corner... I hold all the good cards and sometimes I feel maybe I hold too many."

I have been reading your posts and from the beginning I was thinking the same thing. I don't know why I have the impression that you are much more intelligent than your WW and she feels inferior to you, which might have been a reason for the A. According to my WH, one of the things he found more appealing in the OW was that she was easy to manipulate (I am not) and he could play mental games with her. He felt superior with her. I might be completely wrong here, but I am telling you just in case it might be helpful to you.

You have a long road ahead of you, and you and your WW are going to go through all kinds of emotions and feelings at different times. Be patient, it gets better slowly, very slowly.

Jebels? What are jebels? I love new words.

Tracionado, I guess I'm just a little gun-shy after the latest thread. I feel that my words get misconstrued and I don't want to tick anyone off. As far as perception is everything? You are dead-on. I live by those words.

The not sleeping thing is tough. My H takes ambien - (1/2 an ambien) plenty of nights. I fear he is becoming habituated to them because he says they're not working so well now. In the early stages of R, he was also getting sick to his stomach and barely sleeping at all. He lost 15 lbs - but actually he is very much on the upswing physically and looks so handsome. He's been very active in his college sport, and that has helped him immensely. I am glad that you are finding ways to blow off steam. It's so important.

It does sound to me like a MLC for your W. It sounds like you have a good grasp of her weaknesses. Getting old is tough for a woman, I think particularly for a good-looking one. Suddenly the cards you hold in life appear to go from being a royal straight flush to a pair of jacks....okay, maybe two pair on a good day.

Your W needs to be vigilant and maintain NC. Her feelings will pass, I *really* believe this. When I broke off w/OM, I remember thinking at first that I missed his emails (I keep telling my H, that was the part I liked best. He was very intelligent and well-written. He enjoyed my sense of humor and complimented my intelligence. I was a sucka).

So, what to do about missing email contact?

I blocked his email address. Left my email open on the browser. Told my H my email password. Voila. Very soon, I stopped missing his emails and started being appreciative for not having to experience the following scenario: I am driving off somewhere and all of a sudden I think - AAAHHH I might have left my email open on the computer! AAAHHH My H or children might read something incriminating. Double back and go home, check computer. Heart pounding. Hoo boy. I *so* did not enjoy many things about my A. The secrecy was killing me.

Before long, I started to appreciate the things I should have been appreciating all along.

Now that my H knows, and has elected to stay with me and work on our M, I love him more. He says he lives with less, but in time he feels he may come around.

You sound like such a good strong person which is why I had to respond to your post. Plus, you referenced Garrison Keillor, one of my faves. You have to stay strong, although it will be hard. There are so many stories on here of spouses who came around to their senses after the A and after the withdrawal. You and your W have a life together, children. She will always grow old, which she must accept (what helped me to accept it was to see my BIL die of a massive heart attack at age 49. Aging is always better than the alternative)

Take care.

Okay, so any ideas on "empowering" the WW? How can I deal her a better hand? Initially I felt the balance of power going back and forth like a tug-of-war. Once I came to certain realizations, I got hold and never let go. I actually feel sorry for WW in this regard. If I should deal her a few face cards, how do I do it?

WW inferior to me? I am not worthy to wash her feet. She is an amazing woman.

(Jebels are mountains but that can be a relative term so, in this case, are the rocky hilly waste area on the far end of camp)

traicionado,

It's not about reality, it's about perception.

Penaltykill - Please, please don't be gunshy. You can probably help like few others here. Forget what happened in the past, and continue on. Blessings to you and your family.

I think Lealas has a point. You are obviously very intelligent. You are good at your job, and also the other side of your brain works great.

I was reading about your explanation of learning a language, and it was so perfect. I've been learning Spanish to talk to my roommates. Originally, I was going to teach them English. But it turned out I learned Spanish. We listen to Spanish TV and radio, and now I can understand almost everything. The speaking part was just like you explained. But I never consciously thought about it.

So, Lealas, what should he do?

believer,

Hopefully, there are things that his wife does better than him. He should frequently praise her for how well she does them, even point out how much better than him she is at them. He shouldn't be condescending (traicionado, I am not saying you do this, I am just talking in general), he shouldn't boast about his abilities or accomplishments or career. He should get her to think she is important and what she does is important and appreciated. If she does something wrong, he should minimize it the best he can. Let her think that she has some power.

Like I said before, it is all about perception.

BTW, my first language is Spanish (I am from Spain).

traicionado,

You know how to deal face cards to your WW. If you have painted her into the corner, let her know the paint is dry and she can move away from the corner. You signed up for Plan A, right? Stay on the train. Don't be judgmental. Avoid confrontations. Be consistent. You know the drill. I am repeating what you have said to me ten times. I know it is good advice. OK, how do you pull yourself out of the depression? Not by self-analysis. Just pull yourself out of it. It starts with your thoughts. Be positive. Pretend to have conversational interest with your WW. Talk with her, not to her. She sees you going off to work five days a week. You get to take your mind off everything. What is her outlet? OK, she is an extrovert and could easily meet other Latinas. Maybe she feels shame. Maybe she feels like everyone knows about her A. I don’t know. Maybe she can volunteer at your DD’s school. If she gets busy, she will heal faster, I predict.

“WW has still never said she is committed to R”.

I will repeat the jest of my theme to you this month. You hate useless repetition, I know that. Please consider that perhaps the repetition is not useless. So, here goes: forget words, forget reading body language, and forget trying to read her mood or her mind. The strongest communication your WW can give to you is what she is doing – her actions. Understand and accept that non-verbal communications can be more telling and dramatic than verbal communications. Your WW is still with you and DD. She has not left. This says loudly and clearly that she is committed to R. I don’t believe she will leave. Her feelings for the OM are subsiding, witnessed by the fact of NC in two weeks. Strong communications. Don’t overanalyze. A wise man told me that not very long ago… I listened to him. You should do likewise. Accept that progress with your relationship is sometimes marking time or standing still. It’s all part and parcel of the process. It will be not be steady progress from here out. It is not a linear curve. It is an exponential curve replete with nasty S curves.

Be indifferent, but don’t let your WW see your indifference. Indifference to you is a safety valve. Indifference to WW confuses her. How can she commit if you don’t. You need to be consistent at all costs. Now, climb back aboard the “A” train and get back to work.

ToddAC,

Now that I look back, I think it was you that put me into a depression (and I am not joking). I am glad you are up and around. I have felt much better this evening since I found out you were still kicking. Unfortunately I now find you are still kicking me. Oh well, I can take it. Glad your back.

Good points, Lealas.

Traicionado - Todd is correct. Words mean nothing. My WH told me all of the time that he loved me and wanted to be with me. He took no actions, but I believed his words.

traicionado,

That should teach you not to listen to a thing I say, lol. How did I put you in a depression?

You needed kicking my friend, but you already knew that. You asked for it.

Going home in approximately 30 mintues. On hold for papers.

ToddAC,

How did you put me in a depression? Go back and read your last post on the other site. I have been worried sick.

I have been rereading your last few emails about actions speaking louder than words. I had been searching for reason where none existed. I came to the conclusion that you are probably right. I won't question it anayway.

One of the lessons WW taught me very early on in the M was to never belittle her. I hear so many H's in conversation make jokes at their W's expense. I have never spoken anything but praise to others about WW in front of others and I do the same at home. WW is very artistic, creative, great sense of style. Even now I still compliment her on so many things - even when I am not really in the mood to do it. I remember when we first moved to Dubai (married 2 yrs) and I saw in my behavior how I did criticize her for every mistake and had always done it. We were facing a crisis of being moved to Singapore and I had an awakening, of sorts. One of the results is that I stopped pointing out WW's mistakes. The Thanksgiving turkey incident was the first litmus test and I passed. I don't think I have criticized her for a mistake for the past 6 years (except for the A) - even the car accident which was avoidable.

traicionado,

Oh, that post. I think it depressed everyone but me. Go figure.

Know that when I "lecture" to you, I am also a listener. Giving advice is a form of therapy. I try to measure my WW's words, but they are so confusing as to be meaningless. You and I both seek to quantify things, gauge them and form logical conclusions. Actions are difficult to gauge. Since they are, by definition unspoken, we can assign anything or nothing to them. All I am suggesting is for you - and I - to assign something meaningful and positive to our WW's actions. They are still with us whether words are missing or downright confusing. You’ve got to appreciate the positive sign in that.

Trac,

Good to know your story. Felt like I could contribute because I was in holding pattern with WH for three months. He had a deadline (self-imposed) of January, 2005, to either decide to commit to the marriage or leave for OW. Plan A did save my marriage. I nearly imploded in the process, though. Hindsight, here.

I feel like this is the best we are ever going to have. WW will always blame me for ruining her A. She will never see that the A was a bad choice. She will always blame me for causing her A. She will always be sad that she lost her soul mate and secretly pine away for him a little each day.

I see me in you. I did this. Bear with me. This was my way of self-punishing. Putting yourself where you have no right to be. The future. Tomorrow. The next hour.

I believed I was in control of my H, held almost all the cards and had no idea of how to deal our marriage a new deck. Since I was in control, I was the cause of his A. MB told me that wasn't true...I even told myself that wasn't true, but every time I indulged myself by partaking of the future, I acted as if it was true.

Plan A, B, 180 and the rest...all feed into us having control over, if we read them one way. The other is to finally get ourselves to where we choose our actions not based on possible response, but on our code. Then we can't go into the future, drown in the past. Our code and actions are continually in the present.

I threw away the deck, Trac. It was a figment of my imagination and a bad visual image. Life isn't a game--it is humans acting like humans, full of their own choices. Where they choose from is the defining factor.

Your wife taught you not to belittle her. That's your belief. Try this on--you won't allow yourself to belittle because that involves judging your wife to your expectations, and you don't allow yourself to do that. That's not in your code.

When you act to your standards and boundaries, then all mindreading and assumption leaves the building. There's no room for learning from body language, innuendo, or inactions. There is only truth told and accepted. Because you didn't allow yourself to belittle through instances where you normally would, you had the thoughts, the judgments, and your wife could have read them like you did, in all those same methods you've employed to take the temperature of your relationship. Not allowing yourself to criticize...not others nor yourself...is key. Even in your own mind.

You wouldn't see WW's mistakes unless you judged them as being mistakes.

Acceptance is the only way to combat inferiority. That works both ways...in others and in yourself.

Unacceptance leads to depression. Conflicting inner beliefs and expectations create the miasma of depression.

Todd is right. Accepting she is there as a statement of her choice is really important. Stay present. She is there now. You choose to be there now.

This is my hindsight...I hope it helps. At the time, I felt as you did--what is it I do so my H could see I am changed, committed, safe, accepting...when he is not changed, committed, safe or accepting.

LA

Without getting into a religious discussion, a few months ago, WW and I were someplace I won't discuss for the same reason. Things were still fresh, I was still angry, mental images abounded. While we were there, this voice came into my head and it simply said "it doesn't matter what she does - it only matters what you do". I didn't really understand what that meant and told it so. It ignored me and repeated itself. Over the next few weeks, whenever we got into a crisis, I played that sound back in my mind for no apparent reason because I still didn't really catch it. Gradually it started to make some sense. For one, I can't control another human being. She is going to do what she wants to do. I have to accept that. But what I do does matter because, at the end of the day, I have to be able to look myself into the mirror. That makes a Plan A pretty simple because all I have to be is me (maybe try to be a better me in the process). All I am really doing is trying to give her time, show her a new and improved me (and one that truly is me) and let her decide if that is what she wants to spend the rest of her life with. I want to give her time to "get over" (her words) the OM so she can make an unbiased decision but it will always be her decision.

I think where I have been getting twisted up is on the NC part of Plan A. Coming back from Mexico, I had promises from everybody that NC was in place even though I plainly told WW that I didn't believe it. I think I was prepared mentally for her to break NC but I got turned around here by certain posters. Maybe I misunderstood - maybe not. I am not shedding blame. I just got confused. When I caught WW on the telephone, I never said one word about it. She hung up and we went home. Then, when I posted the incident, I got berated for being a "doormat". You veterans have no idea how strong that word is. You need to use it carefully with us newly betrayed. The "doormat" post set me off the deep end - it derailed the Plan A process and got me totally mixed up with NC and my expectations. I am especially sensitive to the word "doormat" because ToddAC has reminded me that my Latina wife expects a "machista" husband. These thoughts were two freight trains on a collision course and I posted the result a couple of weeks ago. Fortunately someone explained that NC was not a deal-breaker for Plan A and that quiet voice has returned and I think I have begun to understand what it means. Anyway, it is my guide.

I also think the 180 plan was a bad idea for me. I wish I had never seen it. It is manipulative. It is not the "real" me.

I heard a voice like that in my head...

"Let him find his own way."

I misinterpreted it for something else. Recently, I replayed that voice and heard,

"Let them find their way."

Yeah, I'm getting it, huh? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA

And for the record (because he sent me an email) ToddAC is not the one who called me a doormat.

traicionado

Nothing unusual about your melancholy mood. When you offered your ww the option of reconciliation you had the hard job of being her shoulder to cry on while mourning her lover. It’s tough and not everyone is up to that job. So you have been the pillar – the voice of reason while your wife get’s over the worst withdrawal.

You do this by sacrificing a lot of your emotions. Now when things calm down a bit you must realize that she is not the only person in mourning. With her affair she killed your old perception of marriage. You really have to rebuild that perception to move on but now you are mourning your old marriage.

There is one serious danger at this point: you two can reach an emotional plateau where the two of you are happy with the present situation and don’t move on. That can be very dangerous. And you also have to realize that you can not reconcile alone and the two of you are way better off reconciling together.

In MB Dr. Harley talks about radical honesty in marriage. So – when do you implement it? When things are hunky-dory and fine or when working towards healing? I think it can do you two a lot of good right now. And get your wife involved in the reconciliation. You have read the articles here on MB – why not talk to your wife about filling out the questionnaires and working towards fulfilling each others EN and so on. Surely both of you working towards the same goal using the same tools beats just hoping things work out.

I guess one of my fears is that she might be happy to maintain. I don't feel I am in that danger yet. Things are not that bad but this is not how I want to spend the rest of my life either. I guess I feel like I am in that one big grey area. This is the part where the books don't dwell on too much. The eye of the storm. What you suggest may be the right thing to do but that hits on the crux of the problem for me right now. It is not that I don't necessarily know what to do. My problem is that I have no clue when. Things are running smoothly. Don't upset the apple cart. It has been so hard to get things to this point not only for WW but for my mental attitude as well. You know I am not afraid to take action. One of my biggest downfalls. In fact, I have been working very hard not to take action based on sound advice I have gotten here and at other places.

I wish there were some signals to go by. Something to give me hints. Years ago in college, a groupd of us went one weekend to a state park for a day out. For some reason a group of about 30 of us got talked into going into a cave to "explore". I am not sure why I went because I didn't want to but I did. I was about the last of the group. It was a long cave, narrow and obviously dark. We were about 40 minutes into the cave, had climbed up and over piles of rocks, down and under small openings all along the way and our one flashlight (don't get me started) went out. Well you know the bit about the first shall be last and that last shall be first? We decided we had no choice but to leave and me being in the back suddenly was in front.

I still remember that feeling. Groping around in the dark. Trying to recognize things by feel and translate them into what they actually were. That is how I feel now. It took us 2 hours but we all made it out safely. No broken bones.

This is where somebody needs to write a guidebook for us. The eye of the storm. What clues to look for and when to take certain actions. This part of the process is where I also see the largest variety of opinions. Everybody is pretty much on the same page on the first part of the process and on the recovery part of the process but here, now, is the big grey area. This is what I struggle with more than anything.

I tried to get an IC appt yesterday. Problem is we have a limited number of counselors and all work in same office. I am having to try to go around the MC because I want a different person. I don't know why but I somehow feel WW and I using same IC would be a conflict of interest.

traicionado,

You may well be in the eye of the storm. I don't know, but someone is giving you hints. Your WW. I am going to drum away until it sinks in. Don't read anything into, or subtract from the fact that she is still there. You cannot assign values to her actions. I know full well. You want her to say she is committed to you. She can't now. She will get to that point. She is going nowhere. She will capitulate. Don't know when, but she will. Do not over think your, or her posiiton now. I agree with Bigger 99% of the time. This is an exception. Stay steady on the course you decided on months ago. Be the rock in your WW's life. The plateau is merely a resting place until she realizes the gravity of what she has done. Then you know what is coming around the corner. The really hard work.

Similarly, my WW is going nowhere. Her own Latin upbringing is strong and I don't see her going against the grain.

I said a few minutes ago that I still remember how I felt in the cave when the lights went out. I did not say what that feeling was though. I never, not even for an instant, felt doubt, fear, concern, panic, nothing. I knew which way was out but I was not sure how to get there. What I felt was total confidence and absolute resolve. Just me I guess. I know for a fact that there were about 29 other people who did not share my optimism initially.

Bigger's post surprised me a bit too. My primary concern right now is not WW or the mechanics of the situation. My concern is that depression may alter my decision process and I cannot allow that to happen. If I were to let my feelings drive this process, I would have filed for D a long time ago.

The flip side to that coin is how you know when you become a slave to the process rather than a champion of the recovery? Or, in simpler terms, when is enough enough? That is a question I cannot allow to ask myself if I am in a depression because I will already know the answer. Unfortunately it may not be the "right" one.

ToddAC,

I will say that my overall reaction to Bigger's post is that he is just giving me a kick in the rear reminding me that I signed up to this plan - nobody forced me. I think he is basically telling me to stop feeling sorry for myself, suck it up, and get back to slogging through the quagmire. Basically Bigger is just no fun at all now that I think about it. I would much prefer to continue feeling sorry for myself a tad longer - okay - marked it on the Outlook calendar - stop feeling sorry for self ... at ... 7:15AM ...all day event...yes...okay, that gives me exactly 26 more minutes of self pity (although I do have a 15 minute reminder set). Done.

Oh, and remember what I once told you about turning that bolt? I am closing my eyes......

The fact that you are depressed in no surprise. Depression can simply be the result of repressed emotions. You have plenty of those to go around. After I read your iniital post in this thread, my private reaction was that you were feeling sorry for yourself. I didn't have the heart to tell you that. Imagine that.

Did you close your eyes leading your group from the cave? Not that you could see anyway.

Too late. It is now 9:43 so I stopped feeling sorry for myself 2 hours and 23 minutes ago (I admit I hit the "snooze" button once). Though now I see you are about as much fun as Bigger.

I have no recollection of not being able to see in that cave. Weird.

Okay I got my IC appt for the 28th. I just need to hang on until then. I did talk to MC on phone. She told me this has gone on too long. Not a good sign - she is losing patience. I assured her that I would return to MC once WW was firmly established in NC and at least quasi-committed to R. By my count, NC is in place for maybe 2 weeks but I am beginning to wonder if OM didn't sneak her another GSM. Is it instinct or obsession? I told MC that, until WW could stay on NC for an "extended time", WW was in no position to make a good choice. I also said I would support (within already established guidelines) whichever choice WW made at any time. If she wants to try R, we will go for it. I hope WW goes back to IC. It can't hurt.

Hi. I left you a message on my post. Appreciate advice, looking forward for more input. Good luck also.

"She told me this has gone on too long. Not a good sign - she is losing patience."

I am not sure I understand. Can you elaborate?

Thanks.

hey traiciando... long time no hear... hey dont be so hard on yourself... i was there and now im better it is all about getting the help that you need... i think you told me that once.. but anyways... i got help and i got meds... and not saying that it is all better but is getting tolerable sometimes... as for you get the help that YOU need. i will write more later but its good to hear from you... it is a rollercoaster and we are all on it with you...

Well, you are partially right about what I am telling you to do. Yes – you signed up for this. The easy way out would have been divorce. They say recovering from a broken heart takes 6 months. Reconciliation takes two years.

I’ve sometimes wondered about the “wisdom” of the 6 month versus 2 year theory. In the first place I think even if you decide to reconcile than you have to recover from the broken heart. Plus when have you “finished” reconciliation? I think that the 2 year limit is really when you can honestly say the hard work is paying off and was worth it.

When you were groping your way out of the cave you all went as a group I guess. You stopped every now and then to allow stragglers to catch up. You communicated. You held hands to be together. All the time working towards that light at the end of the tunnel (how appropriate). That is what I am suggesting to you. Rather than you grope alone in the dark and your wife gropes alone in the dark then you grope together (hmm... that might be misunderstood).

Work together. I think it is a good time to just simply ask your wife whether she wants to reconcile with you. How you do it is very delicate. You have to approach the issue in a very open and humble way. Don’t say you want to reconcile “despite the affair” or to “recover from HER affair”. More of a declaration of commitment and a confession that things between you could be better.

If you look at it in a rational way it’s so obvious. When you manage a group at work you don’t allow team members to wander around without a clear mission statement, correct tools and some measure for success. Why should a relationship be any different?

WW is in a depression. While that is a bad thing, it might be an indication of withdrawal which could lead me to believe she is still in NC. I don't think she filled her prescription for AD meds. I don't know why. I talked to MC yesterday and got the idea that WW is no longer in IC. I think MC will try to call her and get her to go back. I hope so anyway.

I am trying to be as positive as I can but I am depressed too and am awaiting IC. Even so, the logical rational part helps me to recognize it and not let it interfere too much with our interactions. Mostly I want to sleep a lot.

Bigger,

I don't disagree with what you suggest but I am not convinced that this is the right time. I think, as ToddAC points out, that her being here is an indication that she wants something. For me to try to get words out of her is tantamount to an ultimatum however it is worded and, even if she says what I would want to hear (grain of salt), I know she is a capable liar. I would like her to spend more time in IC, take her AD meds. I would like her to have time to decide what it is she really wants because, right now, I know the answer is to be with the OM.

I don't want WW back. I want W back. I think W may be dead, however.

Jumping in quick cause I see you are online... I haven't read your thread yet... but I dooo have a tendency to be a bit compulsive...

Is she just cutting the ADs cold? How long has she been on them?

I went on them and really appreciated the new perspective they gave me but when I went off them, I had horrible withdrawal. I'm a mixed bag of feelings about antidepressants...

Traic, one page one, you said:

This hit me like a stone... fact is, 2 years after the fact, I still haven't gotten that answer from my W. The two times I've demanded that answer both resulted in a series of unfortunate events.

What that has forced me to do is find the answer myself.

When I did that, it brought a lot of peace. The whole concept of being blackmailed emotionally gets thrown right out the window. If you think about it, you have to actually give consent to be emotionally blackmailed. And finding your own truths, in your own heart and acting from a place of a greater love recinds that consent...

Jumping in again to tell you both... I used to feel this way. But I don't anymore, because I've come to realize that I'll never settle for anything less than a great marriage. That doesn't mean it's going to be easy, or happen tomorrow... but for my sake, for my kids sake and for the sake of the woman I love, this marriage is going to rebud and flourish. Now in the end, it may turn out to be impossible, but until that happens, I'm going to never remember what's most important to me. And that certainly doesn't include any 'settling'.



She won't. The fog clears. Eventually the realize. Some slowly and cautiously (like my W), some in the flash of devasting epiphany (like me). Either way, it happens...

LovingAnyways, that post was brilliant.

It's kind of what I was trying to get at with the Emotional Blackmail thing, but you explained it waaaaay better.

There's some excellent advice here... and I personally think you are on the right track, just keep at it.

J

Thanks dewt,

I was hoping you would get a chance to read my tragic story. Take your time. I am half a world away from most of you so our timezones don't match up that much (except for you insomniacs). I also spend very limited time on the PC because it creates problems in the house. One of the symptoms of WW is paranoia that I am always talking to someone about her.

I don't think she has ever started the AD. She only got the prescription last week and I think it is still in her purse. I don't ask.

I wrote this in an email to someone but I am going to post it in case it is of benefit to someone else. I confess that I am paraphrasing Douglas Adams a bit. I have reached a point in the situation where this pretty much sums up how I feel about things: "For the longest time, nothing happened. And then, suddenly and without any warning, nothing continued to happen. In fact, nothing insisted quite stubbornly on continuing to happen until it actually became quite annoying and there was simply no way to keep nothing from not happening."

I sent that email 9 days ago. It still applies - only now add a minor depression on top of it. Don't get in a panic though. I think I am mostly okay. Just pretend I am Eor ("Don't worry about me - nobody ever does"). I sense a lot of my doubts in things I have heard you say on another thread and just wanted to get your perspective. Motivation maybe. I dunno.

I had a scary thought this morning - the thought of listening to my DD's cry themselves to sleep at night without WW at home. That was a cold splash of water. Enough to get me through the day anyway. That is all I have right now. One day at a time. Just when I think I have reached the end, something comes up. Many times it is one of you. Thanks for that. I should say that more, I guess. I am just tired.

I wish I could elaborate but cannot. It just seemed like a strange comment and maybe I am over-sensitive. All she said was "this has gone on too long". I inferred the rest. My perception is that she might want to tell WW it is time to make some decisions. To be honest, it occurred to me she might tell WW it was time to separate. Keep in mind this is all my imagination revolving around one comment. So what if she tells WW to separate? I will live with whatever choice WW makes. I have no alternative.

Timing is everything. So is how you word it. So don’t talk to your W about what I suggest until you are comfortable with it. HOWEVER do not mix up your fears with how you perceive her feeling. Make sure the reason you delay talking to her is really not your fear for what might be her actions.

I truly believe that we can heavily influence our feelings. If you are not clinically depressed then I truly believe you can “snap out of it”. It’s a lot of work and not easy but the methodology is basically based on realizing you are down and not allowing your mind to stray to the thoughts that are keeping you down. For example: you deny yourself the “privilege” of letting your mind dwells on pictures of OM and WW. So if you are feeling down and realize you have been dwelling on some negative thought you basically pull that thought into the forefront and analyze it: “Is this though beneficial to me and my goals?”

Chances are the answer will be no. If that is the answer then you push that thought away. If you are not sure you analyze it further. If the answer is yes then the thought isn’t really cause for depression but a base to work from.

This isn’t yoga or crystals or anything. It is just using rational thought to control an emotional period. I survived my son’s year of critical illness using this method of thought.

I have been telling you to react. To not allow things to be in a way you don’t want. Really haven’t had to push you because you have all the time been doing so on your own initiative. I have seldom read of a more reactive response to an affair than yours. However I am still a bit scared that you are now letting things slow down and then there is the danger of things firming up in the present situation. The fear of that happening is probably why the MC says “it’s time”. Based on what you post I don’t expect your W to pack up and leave soon. I am certain you two will remain married ... for now.

What I am afraid of is that you two won’t move on. Reconciliation in my mind is NOT surviving an affair. Reconciliation is building up a marriage so that it is better than before the affair – thereby more or less affair-proofing it. If you think of it – a marriage based on two people committing to each other after a trauma can be a very powerful thing. Even if the trauma is self-inflicted.

Don’t underestimate your wife. She is probably going through similar emotions as you are. I would guess that her time is about equally split between R and separation – just as yours is. And I think her commitment to NC indicates she realizes that although her marriage might be over then the OM is not her future. So possibly following my suggestion to humbly and sincerely ask her to follow you on a path of reconciliation might be exactly what she needs right now – a distant and weak light you can both aim for.

Don’t forget you have the advantage of us as a sounding board but she is probably alone with her thoughts.

Funny thing about timing. I just got a call from WW and spent an hour on the phone. Maybe ToddAC was right. I think tonight is going to be a long night...

She did say she never filled the AD prescription. She had quit IC. I have asked her to get both of those things and I am going to at least show her MB and encourage her to read and, if she is comfortable in time, post.

I finally got WW to start the AD. That is something anyway.

I just wanted to update because I had what I affectionately call the "Bigger talk" with WW on Wednesday night. I was not trying to pass any DJ's. I was very quiet and calm and just trying to take the opportunity to explain how I really feel. We never ever talk about any of this. We play house and pretend like nothing is wrong. If she would just talk to me once in a while, maybe that would help - but she never does.

This is a summary of what I told her and it was all heart-felt. I had no agenda other than to lay on the table my feelings.

You may think this was a bit over-the-top and ripe with DJ's. I never talked down to her in any way. I was simply taking the opportunity to let her know exactly what I was feeling - that I too had doubts but that I was committed to trying. She became very affectionate for the entire weekend. I was still unhappy. She still has not said one word about her commitment. She never says one word about what she is feeling or what she wants. All she has ever said is that she wants to be with DD's. Well, DD's are here with me in our house. She is now taking AD meds. She did not ever visit MB. Said she was too busy. She did spend a lot of time in the garden.

Wednesday PM:
1st) Remember my outburst of a few weeks ago that was not triggered by a phone call? Result of that was we had set a date for her departure of Feb 23rd. Arbitrary date but what the heck. She had that date planted firmly in her mind and, even though there was no movement for her leaving (i.e. bags packed, tickets bought, etc.) She said she had programmed herself mentally for that date. I think what got her to make that phone call is that the departure date was looming. Even though we had set all that aside and agreed that she was staying, I think the date still affected her. It was something real and tangible and I think it either scared her or else she was disappointed that it was coming and going and she was still here. I just don't know.

I think her contrition was a false alarm so I had the Bigger talk with her last night as we were going to sleep. Basically I told her that we might be able to salvage the M but that we both would have to work very hard. Right now I feel like I am on hold until she makes up her mind what she wants to do. That takes a lot of effort and I don't think I can wait forever. Some day, and hopefully soon, she will have to decide. I said what she did hurt me very much as nobody else ever could have. What she did is not something one spouse does to another and that I am still bleeding. I need to heal and I cannot begin to heal while we are in this stasis. This pretending to play house is not enough. It is not what I want. I am willing to give the M everything but only if she is too. But we cannot begin anything while she maintains contact. If she feels that OM will make her happier than anybody on earth, she should go. If she feels that she is ashamed, there is too much hurt to ever recover, she should NOT go - we should try to work it out. Together and working very hard, we might get through this. I reminded her that I loved her and that I was willing to make many sacrifices for her but that I did not want to wait forever. This is not a passive process. We can't just sit around and hope some day she is no longer in love with OM and then decide to start working on the M and that certainly won't happen as long as she keeps calling. I don't know why I think this but I do think she is still calling and now I understand how she was doing it. She made one simple mistake. I don't care to prove it one way or the other. She needs to prove to me the calls have stopped (when they do). The only thing she said during the entire event was that when I commented that she had hurt me badly, she said she knew and was sorry. I replied that she was not sorry because, if she were sorry, she wouldn't keep doing it. She never said anything after that.

I think my one-sided conversation went well and was understood. I think it was a necessary thing. The question is was it the right time? At least she started AD.

Thursday AM:
(This is more of what I remember from the Bigger chat)
Today I still see no words out of her mouth but she is being very clingy. I was pretty brutally honest with WW last night without being angry or issuing ultimatums. I told her, in no certain order, that what she did hurt me very much. That the thought passed my mind every single day that I hoped today would be the day she decided to tell me she was leaving. Many times it is just a fleeting thought but I have it nevertheless. What she did was selfish. She chose to get married. She chose to have kids. They were her responsibility. Nobody ever promised it was always fun. There was no excuse for what she did. The phone calls were pathetic and embarrassing. I felt dirty having to count my cash every night. I did not know what she was waiting for but she needed to understand that I was not going to sit around on my thumbs waiting for to get over the OM and then maybe think about the M. I wanted her to leave so I could begin my healing or I wanted her to commit to R so I could begin my healing but one way or the other I needed to get on with life. I would give everything I had to R but only if she was willing to help. I refused to do it all on my own. She had no right to do to me what she did. It took everything I had to swallow my pain and suffering and attempt to R. I was tired. I would keep going as long as I could but I was getting tired. It was time she started to pick up some of the load. I was not satisfied with what we had and never would be. I wanted a happy M and a happy family - with her or without her. Keep in mind I am trying to capture thoughts. I never came across as harsh or demanding. It came across as explaining to her how I felt at this time.

Friday PM:
Everything is still on track with R AFAIK. My talk seems to have had no ill effects. In fact, yesterday was a super day. She laughed a lot, we were close. We hung the hammock and she got in for a while. I went upstairs to lie down and watch TV. She came up and got in bed with me and we spooned.

You just never know. Today might be the day she decides to tell me she is leaving. That would be fine. I would prefer that today be the day she tells me she is staying and will attempt R. i honestly don't expect to hear that from her any time soon - if ever.

Maybe the MC is right. Maybe this has gone on long enough. I think right now I am trying to follow my own advice and try to throw myself on the ground and miss. I am tired of this "waiting game". I just wish that WW would say something - one way or the other. How can I get her to leave one of us - either the OM or me?

Gee – my own talk. I guess I feel honored.

I think the talk should have moved your relationship out of the rut it was in. If properly timed it could have moved it in the right direction. But it all depends on the will of both you and your wife. In a sense it depends on who is the dominant personality in your partner; W or WW.

Now you have to keep some things in mind. You have had time, this board and other resources to think, decide, plan and implement some plan, i.e. the “Bigger talk (BT)”. Your W should be allowed some time to digest this and do her own thinking and planning. I am not counting the time she has spent alone but the time after you gave the BT.

Previous to that time she only felt a pain and had some imagined and unclear solutions to that pain. After the BT you offered a solution but she needs time to compare it to the solutions she might have had and decide.

Basically you are selling her a concept (reconciliation). As in all sales you are allowed to remind her and eventually press her. And as with sales nothing is as irksome as an insistent salesman. So if you talked to her Wednesday you are fully entitled to talk to her again. Restate your commitment but emphasize this is a two way deal. Don’t’ press too hard for an answer but 2-3 days from that talk you can be firmer regarding an answer.

The BT is based on honesty and frankness. In a sense it is a lowering of the guard. However, it does require feedback from the spouse. Don’t keep your guard lowered for too long.

I am not too happy with some of your comments (tsk tsk). Do you really think she didn’t give jumping into bed with OM a second thought? If that is your true sentiment then honestly I wouldn’t bother with reconciliation. It would indicate her morals and values are so shot she isn’t worth keeping. As much as I hate adultery I seriously doubt many people slip into it “easily”. I guess the affair progressed and at many steps your WW contemplated what she was doing. Sure she took the wrong step each and every time but I doubt she did it with a clear conscience or “easily”. Thoughts and comments like the one you made are counterproductive to reconciliation.

About her posting on MB... I have my doubts. I sense different attitudes or philosophies here on MB. I for example think the end-goal (reconciliation) is all important. That is based on TRUE reconciliation with radical honesty and the meeting of needs. Other seem to believe that repentance is necessary for reconciliation. Personally I believe repentance, true forgiveness and total acceptance of blame are all a part or consequence of true reconciliation: milestones on the path.

Look at the reception WIL wife got here. Sure there were many who welcomed her but others gave her quite a lashing. I DO NOT WANT TO ENTER A DEBATE ABOUT THIS. Let’s allow Tri to keep his thread! I just think a WW dipping her toes into reconciliation is not going to accept a lashing as part of “healing”. Irrespective of whether she deserves a lashing or not. I believe it is better to welcome with open arms and guide on the path. Do that and the lashing will be self-inflicetd and more efective.

However I would get her MB literature and I strongly recommend you two get some phone sessions with the MB counselors.

The offensive comment was not made to WW. It was just an afterthought for my post. By her own words with the MC, she was madly in love with the OM two weeks after knowing him. Seems a bit fast to me. I will edit my post just in case.

I will give it some time to settle and see what she decides. She does need to get off the dime and decide something. It is not that I am losing patience - it is that I am losing interest. This whole thing depends on us both wanting R and, more importantly, both wanting it at the same time. She might wait a while and decides she wants it but who is to say I will still want it by then. I am trying my best and still have a little steam left but, for how long?

BTW, ToddAC coined the "BT" term. Go ahead and feel honored though. You deserve it.

"For the longest time, nothing happened. And then, suddenly and without any warning, nothing continued to happen. In fact, nothing insisted quite stubbornly on continuing to happen until it actually became quite annoying and there was simply no way to keep nothing from not happening."

You nailed it here, Tracionado. I've been doing this stuff for almost 3 years, weeks and weeks of nothing happening. Then one day I woke up and realized that I'd lost my love for my husband.

The anti-D's will help, but it usually takes about 20 days or so.

I hope you are resting up and taking excellent care of yourself, because recovery is even harder. Once she makes her commitment to work on the relationship (and she will), you will start second guessing your decision to have her back. Oh, yeah, it's lots of fun.

A wise dude once said this... I thought of you when I read it.

I could really relate to what you said about "who's to say I will still want it by then?"

In fact, really relate. I struggled with this a great deal.

I have some thoughts to share on this, but don't have the time to work them into an intelligble post. I would end up sounding like Doulas Adams trying to explain something while suffering from a concussion. It would not be pretty. It would be like a run-on sentence that dropped dead from exhaustion.

I will come back later...

J

dewt,

That "wise person" sounds like an idiot. Don't listen to him. Nonsensical ramblings from a deluded mind. Post-traumatic stress disorder maybe.

Actually this is what I was hinting at in adrianc's thread just now. I think it goes back to something I said a long while back. The quote from Willy Wonka - be carful what you wish for because your wish might actually come true.

The simple fact is that, in our position, we are so focused on everything else, the Plan, WW, NC, R, that we don't look after ourselves (mentally). If WW does come out of the fog and decides she wants the M more than anything on earth, that leaves me in a huge void. All those things that had been occupying me are suddenly gone. We are suddenly left with having to deal with our feelings and, if we are not careful, might blow up and call the whole thing off. I have a real fear of this and I don't know why. I am going for first IC day after tomorrow (or "ba'ad bukra" as I learned last night in arabic class with WW). I think this is what I need help most on. I think this goes back to my feelings at the beginning of this particular thread. Just look at the thread subject.

I think I will follow up on what Bigger said i.e. try to "close the deal". I will give it until the weekend (my weekend - not yours) because she will have had a few more days on AD and I will have had my first IC by then.

I am reasonably happy with my Plan A. I have myself under control and I am being me. I don't give what I think WW wants a second thought any more - I am just being the best me I can be. Heck - I would marry me. I have a clear conscience and am happy with me. I am not happy with WW and the state of our M at the moment. I recognize that I am a mental mess. If WW becomes W again, there will still be a huge mountain to climb. I can see how it is possible to go from Plan A, R, Plan D in short order. The only glue holding this together for me are DD's. If it weren't for them, I would not be writing this post now.

First of all... don't quote from Willy Wonka. That guy was insane. If you must quote, quote Wonko. He knew the score.


LOL... post-trauma? I have dreams of post-trauma. It's like a far off dream for me.

I'm technically still at trauma. I haven't earned my prefix yet. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


Being the 'betrayed' has some very serious and profound consequences on person. Not just emotionally, and psychologicaly, but physically as well. Extreme weight loss, anxiety, even chemical imbalances in our brains so bad that we take potentially dangerous pharmaceutical interventions just so that we can function...

That's alot to manage.

So we have to look after ourselves bigtime.

I'm very fortunate that Dylan, who is an excellent cook, keeps feeding me. I think she likes me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Focusing on spiritual matters has done me an enormous amount of good. Reading scripture helps me gain an appreciation of what I should expect from myself in Life. Prayer has given me hope and a forum to discuss my fears. Most of all, learning to let go and simply 'have Faith' has given me a freedom that I'm not sure I could explain in less than 2508 words.

Which is a lot of typing for someone who deletes as much as I do.

IC helped, to a point... but my personal issues have all been talked to death and all that remains now is action. Consistent actions. Consistently. Over time. Apparently lots of time. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


And there were a lot of times that it boiled down to me having an ultimate and profound responsibility to provide my son with an intact family. One day I'm going to thank him for giving me the stregnth when mine was all run dry.

As for the mountain... yes, it's a helluva climb.

But think of the view once you are up there.

I think that might have been the coolest thing I've ever said.

I was going to go on with the analogy and ask you to imagine yourself standing up there (with your lovely Wife) looking back down the slope and remembering this time. I was going to then ask you to imagine how different your prespective might be...

But I won't... because that would be too much...

Alright...

As for me, I'm a total and complete Harley Failure.

I totally blew Plan A.

Like 3 times.

My Plan B was a Self-Modified-Harley-Based-Modified-Plan-B was laughable in the same way that a 64-car-pile-up might be...

Noooo...

I stopped fighting for my marriage when we separated this fall. It was my final boundry. I have taken of my ring. My wife has maintained that she wants a divorce for 2 solid years and I have officially 'given up'.

That being said, we live in side by side apartments joined by a hole cut through my sons bedroom, into her living room.

She also is single.

And hot.

And she cooks for me. And we hang out and enjoy each others company.

The boy likes to brag about how cool his divorced parents are.

And...

We got 2, count 'em, TWO bathrooms. (And 2 kitchens, but that's kind of pointless...)

It's weird... when I 'gave up' trying to master the situation, it allowed me the space to TRULY accept that 'it is what it is'.

The fact is... my Wife is a person of integrity. For her to cross that line was a very very bigh thing.

I look back at our life together and I can appreciate why she could've been miserable enough for the insanity of an affair to have seemed an option. Nothing justifies an affair... but (in general) they don't just happen out of thin air.

And there are a lot of things I can work on to make myself a better choice for ANY potential spouse...

Anyhooo... somehow all this stuff I wrote ties in together and makes sense, but I forgot how. And to tell the truth, I'm too tired to try and remember...

...so I'm gonna go off to bed now...

Hope you be doin' ok, m'man.

Read more Douglas Adams. It helps.

Right now the only Harley I want to listen to is my softail deuce. That has a sound I never get tired of.

sweeeeet......

Well if that doesn't just beat everything - just when I had reached the conclusion that it could not possible get any worse than it already is - it surprised me...and didn't.

I'm having a bad time. I have been psyching myself up try to keep up my energy until 1:00PM today. It seems lately I have been checking my Outlook calendar almost continuously thinking if I could just hold off a little longer that maybe this IC appointment would be what I needed. I had no idea what to expect – I just felt like I needed help. I went. Excuse my Spanish but la pinche doctora no pudo dejar el maldito teléfono. Sorry. I just had to say that. No, I got there and was starting to talk about why I was there and she got a phone call which was far more important than my little problem. Apparently the call was so important that she felt the urgency to make her own call after she hung up. I sat there for a couple of minutes trying to remember what I had said to her only a few moments before and I couldn't remember. To be honest, I couldn't remember exactly why I was there anyway. It got very confusing and I suddenly felt very. I kept think she would end the call but it just kept going on. Suddenly I just felt an urgent need to leave. Somehow this all felt wrong. I left. I still don't think she ever hung up the telephone. Who knows? If you have read any of my posts you may have picked up on the fact that I don't believe in coincidence. Either Someone was trying to tell me something or this doctor is just a complete incompetent and Someone was trying to tell me that. Don't know.

All the way back to my office I just kept wondering how much I had left. I had set my hopes so high on IC. I don't know why. I didn't have any real expectations. I didn't know what to expect at all. I just know I am a mess right now and thought maybe this would help. Well it didn't. I am drained. To be honest I sat down and felt like crying. I wanted to - but I can't. Why can't I? I think I used them all up last August.

Oh well, that is my 5 minutes of self-pity. Thanks for letting me vent. Please keep your 2x4's in the woodshed. I feel a little better now. Right now I need to try to get WW the help she needs. She hurts worse than I do I think. Oops. Got a meeting. Have to get the game face on.

That's a great idea. They've been doing such a good job holding up the roof... it'd be a shame to interupt them now...

Seriously, I think you did the right thing in walking out. I can understand taking a quick call, but unless someone was dying, that counsellor was totally out of line. Talk about unprofessional. Yikes.


That's a pretty compassionate thing to say. And from my point of view, fairly accurate to. I have had the experience of being both the WS and the BS. Given a choice, I'd rather face the pain of the BS. It hurts, but at least you have your integrity to help you through the rough bits. I could write a lot about this, but it would just boil down to what I just wrote.

Have a good meeting, dude.

John

Well as much as I tried, yesterday evening was tough. I had to go to town to get some chain and new new tire to make a theft-proof tire swing for DD's. It is great. I got 3/16" welded chain, steel-belted radial tire, threaded caribiners (sic?) which I peened so they can't back off, a $4500 satellite based multi-angle motion activated video surveillance system with realtime feed for monitoring on the WWW as well as automated SMS to my cellphone is case someone tries to steal the swing again. A 20,000 volt DC power supply to electrify the chain with a six-digit deactivation code. Just let that 6 yr old down the street try to outsmart me - he has no idea who he is playing with...I got a great idea from watching Malcolm in the Middle - laser guided bees!

Family had taken cart to driving range so I was fortunately alone when I got home. When they got back, I asked WW to look at her thread and try to post something so she went immediately to PC. Unfortunately her sister was online so she got distracted chatting to her. I made kids dinner, sent them to bed and then I just felt alone. I was also still in shock over the IC appointment from hades. I was having trouble breathing. WW did come up and I have to give her credit. She was super last night and made me feel a little better. We didn't talk much but she held me until we went to sleep. I explained a little about the IC gone awry so she would know what was bothering me.

This morning I still feel in shock. I don't disagree with dewt. I never thought a trained psychiatrist would behave that way. It just seemed totally unprofessional. On the other hand, I guess if she were a really good doctor, she would be back in the USA making big bucks. Now I guess I know the reason she is working in Saudi Arabia. Let me give you all a heads up. If you are American and are ever overseas in a third world country and get sick, don't go to an American doctor. There is a reason why they are there. Kind of like the old story about going to a new town and wanting to get a hair cut. There are two barbers in this town. One has a nice clean shop, nice chair, nice tools, clean uniform and a perfect haircut. The other barber is a complete slob, shop is a mess, everything dirty, he wears an old torn smock and his hair is a mess. Which one do you go to for a haircut? You go to the slob because he is obviously the one who cuts the other guy's hair and gives the perfect haircut.

Do you know who make the best doctors over here? The Indians and that is no joke. I'll take an Indian doctor any day.

I really need to shake this off. What is wrong with me? Somebody slap me please!

Dude, I like your style.

I had some comments about doctors abroad, and in particular a specific Chinese proctologist in Thailand, but then thought better of posting them.

As for counsellors, there's all kinds out there. I've had lots of both. You shoulda seen the first marriage counselor I went to see. Once. He talked for an hour about how much acid he did in the sixties, charged me a hundred bucks, and told me if I could get my wife in, he'd be able to read her like a book and tell me if I could save my marriage or not. I left wondering if he thought it was still the sixties...

Anyway, I just wanted to give you my official advice for the day.

Which is for you to relax.

I know how much it hurts to see your spouse 'in love' with someone else. Oh Gawd how I know...

And I don't know how I got through it... but somehow I did... and when I see others doing it... bearing the pain because it is what their Love for their spouse and family demands... well, I get a huge surge of respect for you, m'man.

If you were here, It'd be like big hug moment or something.

There is an end to this. The pain does stop. And there comes a time when you are looking back at it.

Your wife is potentially at beginning of a process that is going to be very difficult for her, depending on her personality. So please be patient with her.

I was just hit by a memory of Dylan sitting at the computer, MB loaded and waiting, with me standing behind her, "So there ya go, you can post. You can read, if you want. Are you going to post? Huh? Huh? Do you think you will? I think it'd be great if you did..."

And yes, I actually did this. I was mocking myself at the time.

And now I get to mock you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Er... using me mocking me as an examle...

Which... er... might not be very well laid out...

ahem...

But do you think 20,000 volts is enough? That will only stun...

WW is posting on MB. She does so at least once a day I think will keep after it. She said she got thread-jacked last night. I told her to start a new one if she felt like it. I blocked her posts so I can't see them. I have no interest in seeing what she posts - only that she is posting. I also swore on a Bible that I would not read. Short-sighted thinking on my part. Oh well.....

In reality WW saved my sanity last night. You are right. The thought I had the whole time she was holding me was "but she loves someone else". If there is hope that this will change, if there is hope that we might R, if there is hope our children will grow up in a loving and complete family, well...I guess there is hope. That is what all you you keep telling me anyway.

As far as IC, I don't think we're in Kansas any more, Toto. I never had to look any further than my own back yard. I think I have what I need and always have. Eye of the tiger.....

In the end, there's a bottom line. But to get there, there are many routes. I stopped reading Dylan's email because what I was reading was really hurting me. Not so much what she wrote... but mostly what others were writing to her!!! It just took that sense of betrayal and made it bigger.

I may not like the route she's taking towards (possible) reconciliation but as long as she gets there, that's the most important thing. This is a lot easier to bear if I'm not having daily crisis over some email or post.


That's like being punched in the stomach and kicked in the kidney both at the same time. And it's a feeling I have yet to learn to escape...

but I remind myself that what they had was a homewrecking affair... not a love story.

An attraction? Yes. Chemistry? Yes. But Love? No. Not by a long shot.

Their relationship was built on the ruins of a family and the pain of a gentle man and an innocent child. And Love does not do that.

Love is holding on to a marriage even though you've been hurt terribly. Love is fighting to keep a family intact for your children. Love is being patient and compassionate while your wayward works out her $hit. Love is forgiving your spouse for hurting you so bad. Love is when you continue to offer your devotion even when th'other person doesn't really deserve it.

That's what Love is.

So there.

I'm having a rough time these past few days too. Today in particular. W ran into OP this weekend. She told me about it, but there was a lot that was 'personal' and wasn't shared with me. Which kinda sucks, but is within the terms of our agreement. It sucks mostly because lots of times I forget the true nature of our relationship at this point. Things like this catch me off guard, and it takes some time for me to recover.

Honesty and Openness is probably my biggest EN these days and probably will remain in that position. Without that, how can you even identify any of the other ENs? Hopefully you will get to a point where your Wife will give you the go-ahead to read her posts. I'm sure you (like me) have many questions you need answers to in order to progress along certain routes of healing.

Anyway, just hang in there, dude.
ttfn,
J

I am not interested in what she says because it is ultimately counterproductive. I only want her to be able to talk to people she can help her understand she is not alone. I have to make my decisions based on me. I also have to remember that what WW says may not be entirely true and it might just be fog babble - a tempest full of sound and fury signifying nothing.

If she cannot feel safe on MB, it is pointless. I also cannot go back on my word. I just hate that!

The failed IC was hard on me but I clicked my heals together three times and my ruby slippers have brought me back to reality. Also somehow the thought of a big hug from you, well, yeech! No seriously I appreciated your post. I like it much better than Bigger's post telling me to get off my butt and stop feeling sorry for myself. Bigger is just no fun at all.

It is interesting to see your definition of love. I thought it just meant never having to say you're sorry. I need to stop watching "Love Story".

I got the swing installed last night. It is way good. Now, if you will excuse me, I am going to install the laser-guided bees.