traicionado,

That should teach you not to listen to a thing I say, lol. How did I put you in a depression?

You needed kicking my friend, but you already knew that. You asked for it.

Going home in approximately 30 mintues. On hold for papers.

ToddAC,

How did you put me in a depression? Go back and read your last post on the other site. I have been worried sick.

I have been rereading your last few emails about actions speaking louder than words. I had been searching for reason where none existed. I came to the conclusion that you are probably right. I won't question it anayway.

One of the lessons WW taught me very early on in the M was to never belittle her. I hear so many H's in conversation make jokes at their W's expense. I have never spoken anything but praise to others about WW in front of others and I do the same at home. WW is very artistic, creative, great sense of style. Even now I still compliment her on so many things - even when I am not really in the mood to do it. I remember when we first moved to Dubai (married 2 yrs) and I saw in my behavior how I did criticize her for every mistake and had always done it. We were facing a crisis of being moved to Singapore and I had an awakening, of sorts. One of the results is that I stopped pointing out WW's mistakes. The Thanksgiving turkey incident was the first litmus test and I passed. I don't think I have criticized her for a mistake for the past 6 years (except for the A) - even the car accident which was avoidable.

traicionado,

Oh, that post. I think it depressed everyone but me. Go figure.

Know that when I "lecture" to you, I am also a listener. Giving advice is a form of therapy. I try to measure my WW's words, but they are so confusing as to be meaningless. You and I both seek to quantify things, gauge them and form logical conclusions. Actions are difficult to gauge. Since they are, by definition unspoken, we can assign anything or nothing to them. All I am suggesting is for you - and I - to assign something meaningful and positive to our WW's actions. They are still with us whether words are missing or downright confusing. You’ve got to appreciate the positive sign in that.

Trac,

Good to know your story. Felt like I could contribute because I was in holding pattern with WH for three months. He had a deadline (self-imposed) of January, 2005, to either decide to commit to the marriage or leave for OW. Plan A did save my marriage. I nearly imploded in the process, though. Hindsight, here.

I feel like this is the best we are ever going to have. WW will always blame me for ruining her A. She will never see that the A was a bad choice. She will always blame me for causing her A. She will always be sad that she lost her soul mate and secretly pine away for him a little each day.

I see me in you. I did this. Bear with me. This was my way of self-punishing. Putting yourself where you have no right to be. The future. Tomorrow. The next hour.

I believed I was in control of my H, held almost all the cards and had no idea of how to deal our marriage a new deck. Since I was in control, I was the cause of his A. MB told me that wasn't true...I even told myself that wasn't true, but every time I indulged myself by partaking of the future, I acted as if it was true.

Plan A, B, 180 and the rest...all feed into us having control over, if we read them one way. The other is to finally get ourselves to where we choose our actions not based on possible response, but on our code. Then we can't go into the future, drown in the past. Our code and actions are continually in the present.

I threw away the deck, Trac. It was a figment of my imagination and a bad visual image. Life isn't a game--it is humans acting like humans, full of their own choices. Where they choose from is the defining factor.

Your wife taught you not to belittle her. That's your belief. Try this on--you won't allow yourself to belittle because that involves judging your wife to your expectations, and you don't allow yourself to do that. That's not in your code.

When you act to your standards and boundaries, then all mindreading and assumption leaves the building. There's no room for learning from body language, innuendo, or inactions. There is only truth told and accepted. Because you didn't allow yourself to belittle through instances where you normally would, you had the thoughts, the judgments, and your wife could have read them like you did, in all those same methods you've employed to take the temperature of your relationship. Not allowing yourself to criticize...not others nor yourself...is key. Even in your own mind.

You wouldn't see WW's mistakes unless you judged them as being mistakes.

Acceptance is the only way to combat inferiority. That works both ways...in others and in yourself.

Unacceptance leads to depression. Conflicting inner beliefs and expectations create the miasma of depression.

Todd is right. Accepting she is there as a statement of her choice is really important. Stay present. She is there now. You choose to be there now.

This is my hindsight...I hope it helps. At the time, I felt as you did--what is it I do so my H could see I am changed, committed, safe, accepting...when he is not changed, committed, safe or accepting.

LA

Without getting into a religious discussion, a few months ago, WW and I were someplace I won't discuss for the same reason. Things were still fresh, I was still angry, mental images abounded. While we were there, this voice came into my head and it simply said "it doesn't matter what she does - it only matters what you do". I didn't really understand what that meant and told it so. It ignored me and repeated itself. Over the next few weeks, whenever we got into a crisis, I played that sound back in my mind for no apparent reason because I still didn't really catch it. Gradually it started to make some sense. For one, I can't control another human being. She is going to do what she wants to do. I have to accept that. But what I do does matter because, at the end of the day, I have to be able to look myself into the mirror. That makes a Plan A pretty simple because all I have to be is me (maybe try to be a better me in the process). All I am really doing is trying to give her time, show her a new and improved me (and one that truly is me) and let her decide if that is what she wants to spend the rest of her life with. I want to give her time to "get over" (her words) the OM so she can make an unbiased decision but it will always be her decision.

I think where I have been getting twisted up is on the NC part of Plan A. Coming back from Mexico, I had promises from everybody that NC was in place even though I plainly told WW that I didn't believe it. I think I was prepared mentally for her to break NC but I got turned around here by certain posters. Maybe I misunderstood - maybe not. I am not shedding blame. I just got confused. When I caught WW on the telephone, I never said one word about it. She hung up and we went home. Then, when I posted the incident, I got berated for being a "doormat". You veterans have no idea how strong that word is. You need to use it carefully with us newly betrayed. The "doormat" post set me off the deep end - it derailed the Plan A process and got me totally mixed up with NC and my expectations. I am especially sensitive to the word "doormat" because ToddAC has reminded me that my Latina wife expects a "machista" husband. These thoughts were two freight trains on a collision course and I posted the result a couple of weeks ago. Fortunately someone explained that NC was not a deal-breaker for Plan A and that quiet voice has returned and I think I have begun to understand what it means. Anyway, it is my guide.

I also think the 180 plan was a bad idea for me. I wish I had never seen it. It is manipulative. It is not the "real" me.

I heard a voice like that in my head...

"Let him find his own way."

I misinterpreted it for something else. Recently, I replayed that voice and heard,

"Let them find their way."

Yeah, I'm getting it, huh? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA

And for the record (because he sent me an email) ToddAC is not the one who called me a doormat.

traicionado

Nothing unusual about your melancholy mood. When you offered your ww the option of reconciliation you had the hard job of being her shoulder to cry on while mourning her lover. It’s tough and not everyone is up to that job. So you have been the pillar – the voice of reason while your wife get’s over the worst withdrawal.

You do this by sacrificing a lot of your emotions. Now when things calm down a bit you must realize that she is not the only person in mourning. With her affair she killed your old perception of marriage. You really have to rebuild that perception to move on but now you are mourning your old marriage.

There is one serious danger at this point: you two can reach an emotional plateau where the two of you are happy with the present situation and don’t move on. That can be very dangerous. And you also have to realize that you can not reconcile alone and the two of you are way better off reconciling together.

In MB Dr. Harley talks about radical honesty in marriage. So – when do you implement it? When things are hunky-dory and fine or when working towards healing? I think it can do you two a lot of good right now. And get your wife involved in the reconciliation. You have read the articles here on MB – why not talk to your wife about filling out the questionnaires and working towards fulfilling each others EN and so on. Surely both of you working towards the same goal using the same tools beats just hoping things work out.

I guess one of my fears is that she might be happy to maintain. I don't feel I am in that danger yet. Things are not that bad but this is not how I want to spend the rest of my life either. I guess I feel like I am in that one big grey area. This is the part where the books don't dwell on too much. The eye of the storm. What you suggest may be the right thing to do but that hits on the crux of the problem for me right now. It is not that I don't necessarily know what to do. My problem is that I have no clue when. Things are running smoothly. Don't upset the apple cart. It has been so hard to get things to this point not only for WW but for my mental attitude as well. You know I am not afraid to take action. One of my biggest downfalls. In fact, I have been working very hard not to take action based on sound advice I have gotten here and at other places.

I wish there were some signals to go by. Something to give me hints. Years ago in college, a groupd of us went one weekend to a state park for a day out. For some reason a group of about 30 of us got talked into going into a cave to "explore". I am not sure why I went because I didn't want to but I did. I was about the last of the group. It was a long cave, narrow and obviously dark. We were about 40 minutes into the cave, had climbed up and over piles of rocks, down and under small openings all along the way and our one flashlight (don't get me started) went out. Well you know the bit about the first shall be last and that last shall be first? We decided we had no choice but to leave and me being in the back suddenly was in front.

I still remember that feeling. Groping around in the dark. Trying to recognize things by feel and translate them into what they actually were. That is how I feel now. It took us 2 hours but we all made it out safely. No broken bones.

This is where somebody needs to write a guidebook for us. The eye of the storm. What clues to look for and when to take certain actions. This part of the process is where I also see the largest variety of opinions. Everybody is pretty much on the same page on the first part of the process and on the recovery part of the process but here, now, is the big grey area. This is what I struggle with more than anything.

I tried to get an IC appt yesterday. Problem is we have a limited number of counselors and all work in same office. I am having to try to go around the MC because I want a different person. I don't know why but I somehow feel WW and I using same IC would be a conflict of interest.

traicionado,

You may well be in the eye of the storm. I don't know, but someone is giving you hints. Your WW. I am going to drum away until it sinks in. Don't read anything into, or subtract from the fact that she is still there. You cannot assign values to her actions. I know full well. You want her to say she is committed to you. She can't now. She will get to that point. She is going nowhere. She will capitulate. Don't know when, but she will. Do not over think your, or her posiiton now. I agree with Bigger 99% of the time. This is an exception. Stay steady on the course you decided on months ago. Be the rock in your WW's life. The plateau is merely a resting place until she realizes the gravity of what she has done. Then you know what is coming around the corner. The really hard work.

Similarly, my WW is going nowhere. Her own Latin upbringing is strong and I don't see her going against the grain.

I said a few minutes ago that I still remember how I felt in the cave when the lights went out. I did not say what that feeling was though. I never, not even for an instant, felt doubt, fear, concern, panic, nothing. I knew which way was out but I was not sure how to get there. What I felt was total confidence and absolute resolve. Just me I guess. I know for a fact that there were about 29 other people who did not share my optimism initially.

Bigger's post surprised me a bit too. My primary concern right now is not WW or the mechanics of the situation. My concern is that depression may alter my decision process and I cannot allow that to happen. If I were to let my feelings drive this process, I would have filed for D a long time ago.

The flip side to that coin is how you know when you become a slave to the process rather than a champion of the recovery? Or, in simpler terms, when is enough enough? That is a question I cannot allow to ask myself if I am in a depression because I will already know the answer. Unfortunately it may not be the "right" one.

ToddAC,

I will say that my overall reaction to Bigger's post is that he is just giving me a kick in the rear reminding me that I signed up to this plan - nobody forced me. I think he is basically telling me to stop feeling sorry for myself, suck it up, and get back to slogging through the quagmire. Basically Bigger is just no fun at all now that I think about it. I would much prefer to continue feeling sorry for myself a tad longer - okay - marked it on the Outlook calendar - stop feeling sorry for self ... at ... 7:15AM ...all day event...yes...okay, that gives me exactly 26 more minutes of self pity (although I do have a 15 minute reminder set). Done.

Oh, and remember what I once told you about turning that bolt? I am closing my eyes......

The fact that you are depressed in no surprise. Depression can simply be the result of repressed emotions. You have plenty of those to go around. After I read your iniital post in this thread, my private reaction was that you were feeling sorry for yourself. I didn't have the heart to tell you that. Imagine that.

Did you close your eyes leading your group from the cave? Not that you could see anyway.

Too late. It is now 9:43 so I stopped feeling sorry for myself 2 hours and 23 minutes ago (I admit I hit the "snooze" button once). Though now I see you are about as much fun as Bigger.

I have no recollection of not being able to see in that cave. Weird.

Okay I got my IC appt for the 28th. I just need to hang on until then. I did talk to MC on phone. She told me this has gone on too long. Not a good sign - she is losing patience. I assured her that I would return to MC once WW was firmly established in NC and at least quasi-committed to R. By my count, NC is in place for maybe 2 weeks but I am beginning to wonder if OM didn't sneak her another GSM. Is it instinct or obsession? I told MC that, until WW could stay on NC for an "extended time", WW was in no position to make a good choice. I also said I would support (within already established guidelines) whichever choice WW made at any time. If she wants to try R, we will go for it. I hope WW goes back to IC. It can't hurt.

Hi. I left you a message on my post. Appreciate advice, looking forward for more input. Good luck also.

"She told me this has gone on too long. Not a good sign - she is losing patience."

I am not sure I understand. Can you elaborate?

Thanks.

hey traiciando... long time no hear... hey dont be so hard on yourself... i was there and now im better it is all about getting the help that you need... i think you told me that once.. but anyways... i got help and i got meds... and not saying that it is all better but is getting tolerable sometimes... as for you get the help that YOU need. i will write more later but its good to hear from you... it is a rollercoaster and we are all on it with you...

Well, you are partially right about what I am telling you to do. Yes – you signed up for this. The easy way out would have been divorce. They say recovering from a broken heart takes 6 months. Reconciliation takes two years.

I’ve sometimes wondered about the “wisdom” of the 6 month versus 2 year theory. In the first place I think even if you decide to reconcile than you have to recover from the broken heart. Plus when have you “finished” reconciliation? I think that the 2 year limit is really when you can honestly say the hard work is paying off and was worth it.

When you were groping your way out of the cave you all went as a group I guess. You stopped every now and then to allow stragglers to catch up. You communicated. You held hands to be together. All the time working towards that light at the end of the tunnel (how appropriate). That is what I am suggesting to you. Rather than you grope alone in the dark and your wife gropes alone in the dark then you grope together (hmm... that might be misunderstood).

Work together. I think it is a good time to just simply ask your wife whether she wants to reconcile with you. How you do it is very delicate. You have to approach the issue in a very open and humble way. Don’t say you want to reconcile “despite the affair” or to “recover from HER affair”. More of a declaration of commitment and a confession that things between you could be better.

If you look at it in a rational way it’s so obvious. When you manage a group at work you don’t allow team members to wander around without a clear mission statement, correct tools and some measure for success. Why should a relationship be any different?

WW is in a depression. While that is a bad thing, it might be an indication of withdrawal which could lead me to believe she is still in NC. I don't think she filled her prescription for AD meds. I don't know why. I talked to MC yesterday and got the idea that WW is no longer in IC. I think MC will try to call her and get her to go back. I hope so anyway.

I am trying to be as positive as I can but I am depressed too and am awaiting IC. Even so, the logical rational part helps me to recognize it and not let it interfere too much with our interactions. Mostly I want to sleep a lot.

Bigger,

I don't disagree with what you suggest but I am not convinced that this is the right time. I think, as ToddAC points out, that her being here is an indication that she wants something. For me to try to get words out of her is tantamount to an ultimatum however it is worded and, even if she says what I would want to hear (grain of salt), I know she is a capable liar. I would like her to spend more time in IC, take her AD meds. I would like her to have time to decide what it is she really wants because, right now, I know the answer is to be with the OM.

I don't want WW back. I want W back. I think W may be dead, however.