OK... **************************************
But…. I’ll simply defer to DR. HARLEY’S (that was DR. HARLEY‘S) advice to dazed…. NOT MINE HIS…. Let me repeat that…DR. HARLEY’S advice…..
I REALLY REALLY doubt that SH in his session with dazed reminded him about his WW having sex with OM to “Help” him…. Help him what? Get so angry and jealous that he drives his race car through OM’s apartment and into his bedroom….
BTW… dazed never HEARD them having sex…that was someone else on the board… he heard them argue and then get quiet….he figured they might be but they might have just left too….

Marriage is about LOVE not sex… reminding someone over and over that his WW is having sex with another man using words like “********” (and then saying God Bless behind it… what verse are you quoting BTW?) is ROOKIE…and “LURK until you LEARN” time….
Was Mrs. Dazed a virgin when they met? Maybe dazed should have DWELLED on when, where, how and how many men she “******” for the last 14 years…before they met…and after they met before they married…that would be helpful don’t you think?

Sex is just sex… close your eyes and you could have it with anyone….

Love is…….(pertinent)

Love is PATIENT….Love is kind…..It does not envy…..It is not PROUD….it is not RUDE…..It is not SELF SEEKING….IT is not easily ANGERED…..IT KEEPS NO RECORDS OF WRONGS….( this one is a direct hit) …..It does not delight in EVIL but rejoices with the TRUTH…..IT ALWAYS PROTECTS (direct HIT) …..IT AWAYS TRUSTS (again…. DIRECT HIT) it always HOPES….. It always….PERSEVERES!!!! LOVE NEVER…..FAILS…….

VERY VERY VERY DOOR-MATTY words wouldn’t you say….

BUT…..THESE ARE GOD’S WORDS NOT MINE ……OR STEVE HARLEY’S

Harley told dazed his Plan “A” was working PERFECTLY…. Mman told him he saw GREAT progress…yet…..everyone else….says STOP…..GO TO PLAN “B”…

I don’t know….if I post here… my money is on Harley… with HUNDREDS of successful marriage recoveries under his belt…. rather than well… don’t get me wrong almost 50 posts… that is pretty impressive… but… I think my money is on GOD’s idea of love… then SH’s…..call me crazy…… GOOD LUCK AND PRAYERS… FRANK

P.S. Calling me…. Help Me instead of Please Help… MY MY…. you are CLEVER aren’t you? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

HEY MORTAR MAN!! WOW... great to hear from you... you've been really missed... make that 100 ++ me...I'll been praying for you and your situation...
I think you're right... your marriage WILL survive as I believe dazed will come out OK in the end.,...
Anyway... just wanted to say hi... FRANK

MM, first let me say I hope everything works out between you and you W.

I know what you mean by the above statement, but doesn't the WS look at Plan B as punishment regardless of how it is used? I am very close to plan B and want to make sure I don't use it to punish my WW. Could you clarify on how it would be used to punish?

Thanks,

HTW

Htw,

Thanks for the well wishes. I think we will be fine. As JustLearning told me once...recovery is the hardest and longest part of all of this!

Okay, first off...sure, the WS will look at any action that the BS takes as punishment. That is at first. You see, the fog will only allow them to see it that way. But as the fog clears, they will be able to see the BSs actions in their entirety. You wanted an example? Go no further than what happened to me the last few weeks!

You see, at first, my wife accused me of playing a game when I didnt give her as much money as I had been. She thought it "punishment" because she wouldnt "kow-tow" to my demands. So, you see...she felt that is what I was doing. What did I do? I reiterated the fact that she and I could make the decisions together if she wanted to...that this wasnt about making her do anything. But since she wouldn't work with me, I had to make the best decisions I could concerning this family. And then I left it at that. Over the several weeks after this, she would see that first of all, I maintained what I was doing. And second, I didnt mention it again. That second part is the key! If I had done this for punishment, then I would have continued talking to her about it, maybe threatening her with more money being taken away. But since, I just moved forward and didnt discuss it again, she could see that I was serious in the fact that I was doing what I felt was right.

On Plan B...

If you go to Plan B in order to punish or manipulate or let your WS hit bottom, then you will fail to do a good Plan B. CarenMC did that for a long time...and failed at Plan B twice. She thought (as many do) that Plan B is to let their WS hit bottom...and it is NOT! Plan B is for the BS to save their love and to regain power and control over their life. Period!

When a BS goes to Plan B, but uses it to punish or let their WS hit bottom, envitably they break the Plan B in order to move the WS in the direction they want. Or if the WS starts moving further away, the BS breaks Plan B in order to try to grab on and keep them from going. And it becomes very apparent that what they were doing was punishing their spouse for their decisions. And if you want to be married, you CANNOT be the person that punishes your spouse!

So, to go to Plan B...go full NC (or as much as possible if you have kids) and then stick with it, will go a long way towards doing two things. First, it gives the BS what it was made for...strength...a rest...saves their love for their WS...peace. And second, it allows the WS to see that the BS does mean business...that they are doing what they are doing and they are doing it for the reasons they stated in the Plan B letter.

You see, when we try to educate or punish our WSs, it all backfires on us. As Steve Harley told me once, the last person a WS wants to learn anything from is the the BS! At least not directly.

What my wife is learning from me is that I have learned that the only person I can change is me...that I will not give up on my marriage...and I will do what I say.

WSs need that! It is a part of being the lighthouse. The lighthouse cant move. It has to stand very still and keep beaming out the same consistent light. If not, the WS will be lost forever in the fog.

So, to answer your question...in the beginning, they see it as punishment. But if you are doing it right and for the right reasons, they have to eventually see the truth.

In His arms.

This quote is darn crude:
Was Mrs. Dazed a virgin when they met? Maybe dazed should have DWELLED on when, where, how and how many men she “******” for the last 14 years…before they met…and after they met before they married…that would be helpful don’t you think?

I think that is very "unhelpful" to say the least.

SF, sex, intercourse, whatever you choose to call it is what is happening...among conversations, time spent at dinners, etc...quality time...what is happening with his WW.

If we don't say what the affair is...it gets all padded and softened up and people don't sometimes...don't JUST WANT TO SEE THE REALITY...they want rose colored glasses.

Now Mortar...You're a great stand up guy...but your WW DID INDEED LOSE CUSTODY...and that is precisely what dazed's wife needs to do.

And plan B is about preserving WHAT LOVE IS LEFT AFTER AN UNREPENTANT WS TRAMPLES ACROSS YOUR LIFE...and that's what is happening here.

nowhere is it about PUNISHIMENT. In my life, I went to b b/c I had to draw a line between what was acceptable for me to remain healthy and what was to become of my heart. I was advised by many to go there and my recovery one way or another was not dependant on plan A or B...my WS was resistant to both...as are some here.

It is NOT ABOUT punishment.

He is living a life with his love dribbling away each day. His ww is cruel, emotionally abusive to his dd and to dazed, she has endangered her child on many an occasion either speeding down a road with the child with her, or leaving the child with hormonally challenged teenage boys and LYING ABOUT HER OWN CHILD'S WHEREABOUTS AND WHO IS WATCHING HER.

That is totally unacceptable behaviors for me to swallow as a RESPONSIBLE PARENT...this is COMPLETELY ASIDE FROM HER UNREPENTANT AFFAIR.

It is about Saving his love...what is remaining of his marriage now.

And let's face it...it isn't working so far what he has been doing...

We can cheerlead, laud him on etc...keep plan A'ing.

But nothing has changed his wife's course she is on.

I will STICK TO MY GUNS.

Plan B. NOT TO PUNISH..TO PRESERVE AND TO PROTECT IN MANY WAYS.

His W will not understand anything less. And yes MM...your W? She responded to punishment? What do you call the monetary "loss"? Is it a punishment?

We can call it whatever we want...NEGATIVE MOTIVATION...whatever we say. Plan B, Negative Motivation, or Love Preservation...but it needs to happen...a change that is.

And to me it means changing the mentality his WW views Dazed as having. He has continually pursued her...hunted her down. When she's out having dates and sf with the OM. DAzed goes out and gives her flowers and reserves a table at a restaurant.

His WW HAS TO WANT TO PURSUE HIM...Mel, Myself and many others here have stated our case and our reasonings.

I am a woman. I would not want to be wtih a guy who isn't equally as strong as me...AND THAT IS A PERCEPTION MAYBE...but it is what his wife wants. She sees this guy, the OM as a CHALLENGE. She thinks OM Wants her...then he threatens to leave her (I think this happens alot) if she doesn't go thru w/the divorce...she feels unstable and shaky...so she keeps pursuing the OM.

It's more than addiction folks. It is more.

It is PERCEPTION.

The total dynamics of the relationship HAVE TO CHANGE if DAZED IS TO BE PERCEIVED AS THE LOGICAL CHOICE FOR HIS WW.

And for that to happen...

SOMETHING DIFFERENT MUST TAKE PLACE B/C THE PRESENT IS NOT ACCOMPLISHING THE OBJECTIVE.

At least people care for you Dazed.

May we all become more passionate about other posters who need our help.

Plan B would be perfectly executed prior to the upcoming divorce hearing.

It would enforce his boundaries...which is NOT punishing...Or a LB...

Why is it that BS here are afraid to expose? Or afraid to set good boundaries? Or worry if plan B will cause the WS to feel as if they're punished or are LB'ing?

I DON'T GET THIS MENTALITY!

Dazed has once yet again a narrow window of opportunity here to secure the custody issue...and show WW that his boundaries are firm. (see plan B letter he can write). That he has to protect his child and his heart from further abuse from this woman who's done NOT A THING to show SHE WANTS TO CHANGE.

Yes, her motivation needs to be tweaked...she needs to see WHY SHE SHOULD CHOOSE TO COME HOME.

My XWS Took plan B as a LB...totally. Why? because I refused to allow him to eat more cake in my home. Or lie. Or be emotionally cruel anymore. I said no. No thank you. He knew I loved him. I WAS NEVER EVER CRUEL TO HIM...but I did not go along with his little life charade.

Orchid my bud did NOT ever be cruel to her WS. But she tossed him out...made plan B very exact and clear to him...and they are IN A CLEAR CUT RECOVERY AND GOING STRONG...NO RELAPSES...NOT AT ALL. Her FWS knows she meant business and would walk thru fire for her family and for her son.

Why is it just TWO or THREE posters here trying to change the course?

it is to be for Dazed to decide.

And the logic has to show...is plan A continuing to work? Well imho, IT REALLY WORKED WELL..UP UNTIL THE LAST COURTHOUSE EPISODE. IT WAS GREAT...AND HE HAD THE MOMENT AND THE MOMENTUM...and poof! It was gone. WW HAD COME HOME UNWILLING TO DO NC AND LETTER TO OM...AND NOT WILLING TO MEET RECOVERY TERMS AT ALL.

So where did that leave them? Back to A? How many times do you repeat the past over and over hoping and crossing your fingers that THIS TIME IT WILL WORK...

My favorite quote is Einstein...THE DEFINITION OF INSANITY IS DOING THE SAME THING OVER AND OVER AND THINKING THE OUTCOME WILL BE DIFFERENT.

This is what is happening here...happening to dazed...happening now...and

a potential court hearing, divorce, can be less than 10 DAYS AWAY...AND HIS WW REMAINS A FULL BLOWN WW...

that quote is from Dr. Harley himself...


it's really up to you, Dazed....and what YOU consider a reasonable period of time....

if you are counselling with Dr. Harley, what is HE telling you?...


peachy is right, Dazed...lots of people are here in your corner....ahem...not everyone always 'playing nice', not everyone always agreeing,....but all here, with you...because they care....

amen!

My thoughts and interjections..thanks soulloss for the quote. I hardly think Harley feels plan B is for cruelty, LB'ing or punishment of the ws...

Harley's take and my thoughts inbetween:
So, to avoid an indefinite period of suffering(I would call this suffering) while a wayward spouse vacillates between spouse and lover, and to avoid rewarding the selfish behavior(which dazed imho has done) of having needs met by both spouse and lover, if plan A does not work within a reasonable period of time(this has been more than reasonable time frame...too long I am worried), I recommend plan B.

I don't want to threadjack but I think this could apply to dazed as well.

MM, As you finish your Plan A and prepare for Plan B would it be more effective if you finished with a strong Plan A or slowly detach and use it as a transition to Plan B.

Personally my "energy level" as SH calls it has decreased and I find it hard to finish with a strong Plan A. Right now I feel like a battered heavyweight holding on in the 12th round and hoping for a decision.

Dazed, I just want to let you know that I'm pulling for you and your M. I know hearing some of this stuff is not what you want to hear. I'm in a similar situation as yours, although not as bad I would say and I'm slowly understanding that all the Plan A in the world will not bring back my WW.

Whatever you decide I'll support your decision...I just hope you think about what many here are saying.

all the best.

I have no qualms with this. but gaining custody and Plan B are two separate issues!


All true. But again, Plan B should be done for the right reasons. If not, we shouldnt be surprised when it feels like we are nailing a nail with a stapler instead of a hammer.


Again, all true. But lines can be drawn in Plan A. Lines ARE drawn in Plan A. Plan B isnt drawing lines (except in the regards of having NC). It is about moving forward with life.


My wife was not much different...check my threads.


Very true. Which is why I and many here have advised her to do something about it. But Plan B isnt doing anything about it.


I dont agree.


Again, I dont agree. I think that because of his Plan A, Dazed has forever ruined any chance of that other relationship. I think because of his Plan A, Dazed has forever turned into the "good guy" in his daughter's and his wife's eyes. I think that Dazed's Plan A has given him forever the strength to be a great father and a great husband because of what he has learned.

We keep talking about how his wife is treating his daughter. And I have agreed he MUST stop it. But folks, it aint that easy! Even if he just wanted a divorce and nothign to do with her, he still cant protect his daughter 24/7 from her mother. This is a dance...a sick dance, albeit. Again, I agree that Dazed should have and still should set up boundaries in regards to their daughter. Back when she was in her own apartment, I advised that he shouldnt let her in the house until she could learn to behave herself. If she leaves again, he should do the same.

But I do not agree that his Plan A has done nothing. His wife's attitude towards him has TOTALLY changed! Sure, she continues the affair. But her relationship with him has changed. How she views him has changed. Before, the divorce thing was easy. Now it is very, very hard for her!


Nope. Not punishment at all. This whole thing got set up because we needed to take care of some financial stuff that was stil lout there and still in my name. I asked her to sit down and go over it and she refused because she knew that meant less money in the bank for her for a little while so I could take care of this. Since she didnt sit down with me...AND I had to take care of it, I made the adutl decision to take care of it. In no way did I ever do this to punish her. And she knows that now!


Get this...I didnt do this with the money to change her mind in ANY way! I tried to discuss things to chaneg her mind. Once she wouldnt talk about it, I did these things because they had to be done! Not to motivate her to do anything. Just as in Plan B, it isnt doen to make the WS do anything. The BS begins to do everything, make all of the decisions, have all of the power. It really has nothing to do with the BS, just as what I did last month had nothign to do with my wife. It had to do with me doing the responsible thing.


First, he cant change her mentality. You dont change people...you change yourself!! Second, I agreed that his Plan A had begun to reach doormat status and he needed to back off on things. A little. But you know what? Several years ago, while my wife was in the middle of the affair, I sent her flowers on Valentines Day. Card and everything. Me and the kids filled up her car at work with flowers. Know what? That POed the OM (I loved it!). And to this day, my wife still has the little kissing ladybugs that were on the side of the vase. What Dazed did in his Plan A did effect his wife. It is in there. The seeds are planted. But he isnt going to chaneg her. he just plants the seeds and waters them. God takes care of the rest.


Of course she does. Why do you think he did Plan A?? If he hadnt done Plan A, she wouldnt have wanted to pursue him. Why is she so mixed up now? Because she does want Dazed, but is addicted to the OM.


So you are saying that women positively respond to manipulation...that manipulation is the way to go for a man if he wants to "control" his wife? And that is what OM is doing...controlling Mrs. Dazed. Thru threats, intimidation, guilt. So, as a woman, you are telling me that is what women want?


That is what I said in my latest post. I said that just like in my case, I needed to get things moving again. So, I came to her and offered her to sit down and figure out how to move things further forward...or sit down and discuss how to end things because even though we were doing okay, it wasnt enough. When she wouldnt do either, then I began to do things myself as I no longer wanted to sit still. Now, she is stuck either sittign alone, running away...or getting beside me. I advised Dazed to do the same thing. To get up and get moving. To start making decisions and to start moving forward. To begin his life after the affair! You se, once he changes and begins to move, his wife MUST change! One way or the other. So I agree that he must get moving. I do not agree that Plan B has anything to do with that. Plan B has to do with an evaluation he makes of himself while moving forward, to decide if his wife is hindering that movement. If so, then he goes to Plan B in order to continue that movement forward, away fro mthe mess and into the future.


Not sure what this means?!?!?


Again, not sure where this came from.

In His arms.

Fear! But that isnt what I am advising...nor what SH was advising. We are advising moving forward by making tactical decisions not based on emotions.


He can get custody and set boundaries WITHOUT Plan B!


He cant do that thru intimidation or manipulation. That is the OM's game!! if he plays his game, then Mrs. Dazed really doesnt have a true choice, does she?


And you shouldnt have. You shouldnt have even when you were in Plan A. Plan A doesnt mean you allow this stuff.


I know Orchid and her story. Like I said, settign boundaries is good in both Plan A and Plan B. But we all need to make sure we understand what Plan B is. Because too many here dont understand it, use it improperly, and fail at it!


Two or three posters AND SH! Look, I am not trying to chaneg his course. I am trying to help him keep his course. And that is following the MB principles that have gotten him close to saving hsi marriage. I agree it is time to move things along. But Plan B is not the thing right now...and especially for the reasons you have given. Using Plan B to motivate a WS is like nailing jello to a tree!


It aint gone! The OM exploded. Threatened her. Unless Mrs. dazed is a complete embecile, she will remember all of that. Because of what Dazed has done, that relationship is forever, terminally damaged. Sure, I might have gotten custody before all of that. But guess what? It has worked out the same anyway. His wife has no chance of custody...NONE! He still holds all of the cards. He has lost NO ground, just as in my case, I have lost no ground if my marriage fails. I will still get cusotdy.


You know, this is like having a Lean Cuisine meal that states you stick it in for 8 minutes, then take it out, stir the potatos, and then put it in for another three minutes. Everyone wants to just pull it out after 8 minutes and eat it. And then wonder why it is still cold in the middle! These thigns take as long as they take. Re-read what Dr. Harley states about how long affairs last, etc. Dazed's is right in the middle of the "typical" category!!


He isnt doign it over and over...he hasnt finished the first interation yet!


So what? What is the day after the divorce hearing? Just another day! Some see that divorce day as something magical. Like it will change things. It wont! His WW will remain a WW as long as it takes. As SH told me once...I cannot shorten the affair, but I sure can lengthen it. I can lengthen it when I dont do the things that need to be done the way they were designed. You are proposing a use of Plan B for which it was not designed!

In His arms.

Quote:
I needed to get things moving again. So, I came to her and offered her to sit down and figure out how to move things further forward...or sit down and discuss how to end things because even though we were doing okay, it wasnt enough. When she wouldnt do either, then I began to do things myself as I no longer wanted to sit still. Now, she is stuck either sittign alone, running away...or getting beside me.--Mortarman

Wow. unilateral decision. Sounding really close to a plan b like issue to me...and yes, perceived I am sure as a punishment by your then WW.

More from Mortar:
So you are saying that women positively respond to manipulation...that manipulation is the way to go for a man if he wants to "control" his wife? And that is what OM is doing...controlling Mrs. Dazed. Thru threats, intimidation, guilt. So, as a woman, you are telling me that is what women want?

Hardly. What do you call MM the financial changes you did when your WW did not want to sit beside you? Geez...sounds awful close to manipulation...Manipulation wouldn't work for one darned minute with me...oughta know..my xwh still tries from time to time. What would respond with a woman? A man who can KNOW WHEN TO PULL BACK...AND NOT LAY IT ON THICK 100 PERCENT OF THE TIME. I don't want (example) a man sending me flowers all the time. I don't want to go to fancy restaurants all the time. I don't want somebody waiting on me hand and foot. I want a man who is somebody I can look to...and he can in turn look to me. Mutual respect...and that comes from NOT TAKING EACH OTHER FOR GRANTED as a starter. And I would become absolutely sick of a man even in dating as I am now, if he was a complete pushover. We want to think that we are lucky to attain our partner. We want to feel we have somebody special...and sadly, I see it time and again with BOTH MEN AND WOMEN...if one party calls the other one too much, or one falls all over the other, that the party being mainly pursed LOOSES INTEREST MORE QUICKLY. I see this happen all the time with my single friends in their lives. And in my friends whom I went thru divorce recovery, a few got back w/their spouses. And the things in common? The WS FELT THEY HAD TO GET BACK THEIR BS...that they were loosing them for good. Not about manipulation mind you..it is ALL ABOUT POSITIVE PERCEPTION. She has to see dazed DIFFERENTLY.

Why don't you guys ask us women more often what we think? We'll tell you!

Honestly...I do NOT THINK THE OM IS REALLY LAYING ON THE PRESSURE AS MUCH AS WE'D LIKE TO THINK HE IS...I think it is about the WW doing the lying here.

What I believe is his WW is a master of manipulations..that it is SHE WHO IS MANIPULATING BOTH DAZED AND THE OM. That both are hearing WHAT SHE CHOOSES TO TELL EACH OF THEM.

I stated this earlier..I think to the OM dazed Wife is saying "My Mean cruel H..he is so controlling of me. He follows me around to parking lots...he doesn't want me to be happy. he will take away everything I have if I don't just want to be married to him. And he neglected me so long...racing those care?" That's what I think she has said to OM many times if I were a betting woman (which I am not)..and to dazed she probably says :"I am so confused. OM pressures me so. He has told how he gave up his marriage for me..divorced his wife...and got the apartment for me...and yells at me and makes me feel bad and scared if I don't leave you dazed, he'll do so mething bad to himself." That stuff is what I would almost bet is going on!

The manipulator here is NOT OM...IT IS DAZED'S WIFE.

Most here agree the problem is NOT THE OM...IT IS DAZED'S WIFE..

What is indefinite? Again, re-read Dr. Harley. he states how long this typically goes. Btu the key is Dazed! If he feels it is reached indefinite, then he goes to Plan B. But again, I believe SH knows this stuff...and still advises Plan A for now. Why?

In His arms.

It all depends. If your WS had moved out (like mine did), then it was very easy to go to straight Plan B. But, as in Dazed's case...his wife lives with him right now. So, he has the ability to slowly pull back. When I say pull back, I dont mean disappear. I mean, that he begins to chaneg directions. begins to take himself and the daughter in a different direction. But the key with Plan B is that if you are losing the love and strength, then by all means, go to Plan B. it is about YOU and YOUR LOVE. Plan B is NOT about the WS.

In His arms.

peachy, are you yelling, or are your caps for emphasis?....


BREATHE.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />



""lots of people are here in your corner....ahem...not everyone always 'playing nice', not everyone always agreeing,....but all here, with you...because they care.... ""

oops...forgot the second part of my post...


""it's really up to you, Dazed....and what YOU consider a reasonable period of time....""

MM: (about MY life) And you shouldnt have. You shouldnt have even when you were in Plan A. Plan A doesnt mean you allow this stuff.

Mortar, I NEVER did. It was NEVER ACCEPTABLE BEHAVIOR.

And plan A, according to your words...does not mean you allow this stuff.

He's allowed far too much.

Look...THIS IS NOT ABOUT ME VS. YOU MORTAR.

I can say whatever I want. I have my thoughts and my decisions.

I have said to look at my friend Orchid..she had a very very adamant OW...who was venomous! And her WS was in a super huge fog...just like Dazed's WW is.

But she DID AND EXECUTED PLAN B AND A PERFECTLY.

And I will still begin to tell you and everybody here this...SOMETIMES PLANS A AS WELL AS B FAIL..

Not all WS will return nor choose to change.

sometimes despite your efforts, my efforts, and prayer and karma and all the plans and help..they don't change.

That is something dazed needs to understand also...

Aside..

Mortar:So what? What is the day after the divorce hearing? Just another day! Some see that divorce day as something magical. Like it will change things. It wont! His WW will remain a WW as long as it takes. As SH told me once...I cannot shorten the affair, but I sure can lengthen it. I can lengthen it when I dont do the things that need to be done the way they were designed. You are proposing a use of Plan B for which it was not designed!

No Mortar! I am proposing plan B based on the ideas Mr. Harley has said about the plan HIMSELF...I think I quoted it and pasted it again? Just a few paragraphs above?

And what about the day after the divorce? Well let me certainly tell you what about happens the days after a divorce...children are tossed about...a custody plan goes into place. Finances are divided according to what the judge said how they are to be divided. and CUSTODY CHANGES ARE SET IN PLACE AND SET THE TONE...

That is what happens. I know it. I have been here. I see what goes on. A lot does indeed happen!

Because I did my plan A longer than I should have, my xh used that time to let his affair go further underground...when I finally got around to plan B, my heart was worn out...I was depressed...and my xh had used the extra time to hide monetary assets that lawyers could not even find. And disperse legally assets around. And it hurt me financially in the end.

This is the kind of games a WS plays.

It is not about my words vs. Your words...not at all.

It is about laying the cards out on the table and seeing what is most plausable..what is best. What will keep dazed in best odds for recovering BOTH HIS CHILD, HIS FAMILY, HIS MARRIAGE.

And again, I will say that YOU NEED BOTH SIDES TO UNDERSTAND WHAT'S GOING ON HERE. you need recovered spouses to tell you what's worked..what has not worked...when you've failed...what failed..to develop a good plan.

And sadly, I do disagree with you MM about the continued "success" of his plan A. While it has done alot to show dazed is different...his priorities (racing and the like) are changed to his WW, it is time for a change...an ending. A is not delivering imho the impact it did a few months back.

And yes, alot is at stake.

for if the divorce goes down and WW is allowed to retain some custody, she gets "SOME" OF THE PAYBACK she has been angling for these last many months, she could move forward with the OM.

Since the beginning, truthfully, the affair has been by his WW...for his WW..and all about her. She's the one eating cake. She is the one lying to two men. She is the one manipulating. She is the one abusing mentally both dazed and dd. She is the one who has PLACED HER CHILD IN DANGER AND AROUND HORMONALLY CHARGED TEEN BOYS AND LIED ABOUT WHO WAS WITH HER OWN FLESH AND BLOOD. That is vile to me as a mother and a responsible parent.

Ask Orchid about how an alien speaks and acts.

DAZED'S WIFE IS A COMPLETE ALIEN RIGHT NOW.

And an alien doesn't make a good mother or parental decision maker.