Post deleted by Cherished

Cherished,
I read the thread and was brought up a strict Catholic.
I however have "chosen" not to practice it as an adult for some of the reasons I see there. Sorry, my hugs go out to you.

My priest when I was growing up was one of the angriest, meanest, and downright cruelest people I knew. Even with being sexually abused by 2 different "devout" catholics, he was worse in comparison. When the second man, a close friend of the family and high up member of the church, was exposed for what he did to many "little" girls of which I was one, the priest held prayers FOR HIM, chastising the girls in the situation, because of our sinful natures.
I remember sitting there, hearing the words, and feeling my life go away. And being catholic, all is forgiven?? Ok but was I a sinner at 7 years old?
This priest went on to chastise me, take me under his "wing" and let me know how much I sinned. This continued from that time, through CCD, and conformation. I then taught CCD for a year to younger children when I was 18. This priest continued there until I left and married.
I married outside of the church. I have never even once gone back to a catholic church. So in my religion, I am living in sin, my 4 beautiful children are [email]bast@rds....[/email]

I do not think that the POJA and the catholic views will work. That is MVHO, and like I said, I am a sinner....

cherished..

I read it..

you go on a Catholic forum..
bashing a Catholic seminar based on your version on a priests talk...

it is not a universal Catholic experience...

if you didn't like the seminar then discuss it with the specific diocese and priest...

you pretty much came at them with guns a blazing...
offering your perception of things that they did not experience...

and it appears that the forum deals with more global issues ..ie...how to make sacrificial giving a loving exercise in marriage...might serve you better...if that is what you are seeking....

but if you are seeking a debate..
you won't be open to hear..just to be right...

OR are you trying to seek understanding....for surely you will learn more if you are there...than just debating...

my advice....
if YOU have an issue with Catholicism..take it up with the priests...

ARK

Post deleted by Cherished

You do have to forgive..but you don't have to STAY with him...

your talking no mutuality in deep deep issues ie abuse......they are talking sacrifice in not getting your knickers in a bind over toothpaste in the sink....day after day after day after day....

and trying to make it all equal...

your husband uses words on you cause he is a known and active abuser.....

why are you seeking to understand someone who in action treats you so poorly...what is there to understand about that

ARK

Post deleted by Cherished

I think forgiving YOURSELF is more important than anything. Once you have accepted your own forgiveness, than you can take the steps to back it up with your actions. By NOT allowing yourself or your children to be subjected to this kind of situation, or exposed to the abuse of your H.

Cherished, I did not look up your article, but for what it's worth, from reading this thread, I agree with ARK!

SAY NO to being a doormat! That is not loving yourself as a temple of the Holy Spirit--kwim?! Jesus would *not want* you harmed. You need to be protected (from broken arms, from STDs, etc). Your kids need to be protected. There are healthier boundaries within which to practice your faith, and your marriage.


A Catholic,
J

And if it is a biblical sense of which you choose to stay in your marriage, well, you have biblical grounds to leave. It's called adultry. Dr. Laura has the 3 A's of which someone should leave.

Adultry
Addiction
Abuse

I think at least 2 out of 3 apply in your case, Cherished. Not meaning to hurt you, just want the very best for you and your children.

Cherished--is the abuse ongoing? Is his affair ongoing?
I think we're confused.
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There are CONCRETE changes your husband can and should make to rebuild trust. They are described in the book "After the Affair" by Janis Abram Spring. You are right, there is more to recovery than just you forgiving him!!
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I've been thinking about your unconditional love deliemma. Let me compare marriage to having kids. In the normal course of things, we are head-over-heals in love with our children early on, and we maintain that love as a decision even as they grow up onry teens mad at us for all the times we say "no". We try to accomodate their desires, but we shouldn't let them run all over us or get away with bad behavior. In extreme cases, the older child becomes unmanagable (whether b/c of mental illness, drug use, etc.) or need more help than we can give them. At those times, we must *separate* (they get mental help, drug rehab, etc). We can still love them and learn to forgive them, but separation is best for everyone at that time.

Marriage is different in that there should *not* be a big power difference and (Catholics in particular) should look at it as "'til death do you part".

But marriage is the same in needing HEALTHY BOUNDARIES! While we can read about exceptional examples in certain saints, the normal course of marriage is for mutual give and take-- "sucking up" minor difficulties, but never letting bad behavior rule daily!! Big life decisions in marriage should be by policy of joint decision or resentment sours the marriage. Communication is so important. In extreme cases (unrepentent adultorer, spouse abuse, etc.)... *separation* may be necessary to protect the spouse and children; and in hopes the person w/bad behavior will "wake up" and accept the professional help they need for good family life.

Marriage is often compared to Christ and His Church; a man and woman should love *each other* even as He loved us. He gave completely for us! Yet look at His daily life: even though giving selflessly, He frequently went away for private prayer and renewal, and protected Himself until His time (Calvary) had come. He told the apostles there are times when you are not welcomed by someone and 'shake their dust off your feet". Even HE had boundaries.

Does that help any?
Best wishes,
J

Post deleted by Cherished

Cherished:

Has Harley suggested you do a Plan B separation until your husband will get some counseling and puts a plan in place to address some of these issues?

With regard to your post on the Catholic board, I thought it was way too aggressive. I understand where you're coming from, but you're probably going to be most effective by working from inside the church, not blasting them with a contrary opinion and expecting them to see the light.

K

"Mom for Pope"...

Post deleted by Cherished

Cherished,

An ultimatum is unlikely to provide much in the way of results. I wish it weren't so (because they're easier to do than a separation), but I would suggest either a separation or for you to file for divorce, with the plan being to take it relatively slowly---allow him to stop the divorce by getting his act together with concrete steps.

That's unless you're willing to continue with the current situation. Do you see much benefit in it?

Cherished .... as a Catholic, I spent 12 years going to Catholic schools and somewhat believe in what they teach, I guess I take what I want/need and discard the rest. So, not a devote Catholic but know the religion well.

And.... I was very physcially abused in my first marriage. I can only speak for myself here, how that made me feel and why I did or didn't do.

I believe that the hitting is just the tip of the iceburg. When trying to explain how I felt during this and perhaps still... I can best describe the physcial abuse as feeling like a beaten dog... And, if you beat a dog every day, what do they do - they cower in the corner - afraid, very afraid. They are very fearful of just about everything. They jump, they are scared, you can open the door for them to go out... oh it looks nice and good out there, but nope, too scared to go out there...

Can you relate to any of that at all ? I once read a book - I Hate You - Don't Leave Me... Pretty much summed up my first marriage.

As a catholic I am not sure where to draw the line in forgiving. I think you can only forgive IF the person doing the sin is sorry, shows remorse. I know the prayer says .... Forgive us our tresspasses as we forgive those who tresspass against us... which is true... but if we are not truly sorry for our sins, we are not forgiven... and if the person sinning against us is not truly sorry, we do not have to forgive them.. Again.. this is just my take on this...

I think this really applies here --

What would you do if you were not afraid ???

My very best regards,
Carnation

Cherished ~ I read your post on the Catholic board yesterday and spent sometime thinking about it before I posted.

Yes, perhaps you were aggressive - however - in my opinion - I think the real problem was that both sides (you and them) have completely different definitions of sacrifice.

Sacrifice, in a secular sense, is a negative term. In terms used by the Harley's it is definitely a negative - as it means that one spouse is gaining at the other's expense.

In a Catholic definition, the one sacrificing is chosing what is good for the marriage and good for the other, rather than what one selfishly desires (ie giving up lovebusters). In a Catholic sense, no one is losing, as the sacrificer is gaining/earning their own eternal salvation.

To give up angry outbursts, selfish demands, and independent behavior, to avoid lovebusting your spouse - is a sacrifice - as one must deny ones base urges, and make a choice to do something else.

I should point out that POJA can be seen as a sacrifice in Catholic terms. It is a sacrificing of ones selfish desires for the benefit of the union. For example, before marriage the wife might have played bingo with her girlfriends every Sunday night. The husband might have had poker night. She wants nothing to do with poker, he wants nothing to do with bingo.

In the marriage however, it might be, that both must sacrifice bingo and poker, and come up with a new arrangement, in order to spend 15 hours together meeting needs, might decide to have miniature golf night together.

In 12 step terms, we talk about letting go of self-will.

In any context, it must be placed against a backdrop of two (not one!) emotionally and spiritually healthy people.

perfectly stated bramblerose...

ark

Post deleted by Cherished

Cherished, I'm not Catholic so I won't comment unless you wish it. I would only say that so far in the thread I have yet to hear a "biblical" example of when to forgive a "fellow Christian."

If you'd like an opinion on that, I'll offer mine and support it with Scripture, not mere opinion of a man, priest or otherwise.

God bless.

Cherished ~ I have alot of trouble with many priests, teachers, counselors, whatnot, in what and how they communicate Catholic teaching. I know from experience just how terribly damaging it can be.

The problem is not with the church - its with human interpetation.