"he tells that I'm using honestly as an LB. When I explain to him that I'm not, he doesn't believe or shuts down."

This is what I learned...my H has an opinion...I have an opinion. I listen to H and he listens to me. When my H was coming out of an A, it was really hard to do "I" statements and listen/repeat, but I did it. When I had my A, H didn't do this. Still, we're doing it now.

DJ's are just spoken...they are beliefs we hold. We tell ourselves...this is what my H thinks and believes and he's wrong. That's a DJ if he hasn't stated it. In your case, you both are lobbing DJs in what I quoted above.

Can you guys call a truce long enough to do communication exercises? My H and I were holding stuff against each other this way, miscommunications and all, when we didn't have to. We had to clear and know that we can each believe different things; there's no argument in that. He believes one thing of you and that's not fact, just his belief...same for you to him. Why do you have to agree? He sees you using your honesty as an LB...is that truth or what he believes? There's your truth and his truth...not "the truth" and it is that unagreed upon "the truth" that is killing your relationship...and probably has for a long time. Sure killed off mine. But then, we rebuilt and we don't attempt to make one another believe as we do, nor be responsible for the one's feelings.

That is what I call respect. Not admiration...respect. You are both humans with your own beliefs and feelings. Love means you listen and understand, not judge. There is no judgment in love that I have found.

Owl is wise here...what matters is what you think of yourself, what you believe you are doing or not, getting to your own truth means you have to stop focusing/reacting on H's. He is the BS...he is in a world of hurt and pain, but you giving in on ENs, DJing, reacting, feeling strained and ordered around, isn't really meeting ENs or recovering your marriage. Getting to where you own what you did, why, and who you want to be...will get you where you really want to go. Free, clear, forgiven, loved, respected, supported, celebrated, and happily married--if you choose. Your choice. Right now, neither of you can accept the other. That would be where I would start. It is where I started.

LA

The only reason to get legal counsel is if you need a divorce. And apparently you HAVE threatened divorce, which is why he is so upset. Can you not understand his anxiety when you threaten to destroy his life every other day? That is not playing fair.



Say what? So this is just a pretend game so people won't accuse you of not trying? Well, I dare say that no one is falling for it so you might as well knock off the pretense. Threatening a divorce is NOT TRYING. That is QUITTING. You are saying "I want to quit" but I want credit for "trying." No one is fooled by that.

Nor can you claim that you are "trying" when you are threatening divorce. That is NOT trying.

If you want a divorce, why are you there?

Owl

Thank you for your thoughts and suggestions.

LA

I have said that we have to agree to disagree at times, since opinions differ. He doesn't like that.

I try very hard to respectful of him when talking, but once he starts berrating him, I feel beat down; so I shut down.

I would love to be in a relationship that I feel respected/supported are real full partner. I don't remember the last time I felt like that. I like who I am now confident, courageous and feel good in my skin. That is except when I'm around husband.

Melodylane

I haven't mentioned divorce for months. I'm here to be around the kids and get a job to have my own money. Retirement check is obligated to bills and would like more cash to pay off bills and get out of all debt. Husband has told me I would be "blacked out" from the family. He has only lied to me once, so this is his plan.


All

I take full responsibilty for the affair, I should have not done it or ended my mariage before starting a relationship. I have apologized to husband and kids numerous times.

We actually talked last night for about 3 hours. We both tried hard to listen to each other. We asked about the chance from the day before to day, concerning what someone wrote about relax and things fold out. I'm doing what I can now and he accepted that. Yesterday, he walks in the door and tells the kids that he is done and that I'll filing when I see a lawyer fon Friday. I was curious why the sudden change. He was mad about all of ****** he caught about his boundaries and then reading this thread that sent him over the edge. I asked if one/both are going to have to thrown a hat in the door to test the waters before coming in? He said that he hoped not.

I asked him if read in his thread about emotional abuse, he said yes and thought it was crap. I tried to get to understand that is how I feel and felt for many years when he just beats me down. Husband doesn't see it so it doesn't happen. Later in the evening, he apologized for hurting me. I thanked him and asked why do you do then? This is not the first timne you have heard this, I have told you for many years. He agrees that he is demanding, but not emotional abusive. I don't don't know if I'm more mad or sad that he doesn't see this. I guess I don't have the right to be mad.

Thank you all of your inputs. Have a good day.

This is ANOTHER reason why I place so much value on good marriage counseling. Our MC didn't spend a lot of time giving us 'sage advice' nearly as much as he spent time helping us to learn to communicate with each other. Most of the time, he was the referree who helped us to express to each other what we were REALLY feeling and dealing with...AND THEN he helped the other spouse to clearly HEAR and UNDERSTAND what was just said.

It seems to me that the two of you need to have the 'neutral 3rd party' more than almost anything else in order to help you deal with all of the issues in your marriage...the ones pre-existing to the affair as well as those created by or subsequent to it.

Both of you are hurt and angry with the other. And whenever you talk, you both vent that hurt and anger back to the other person...so that all their really hearing from you is THAT...not the message contained within.

You both need to learn how to express that message WITHOUT the hurt and anger, so that the other person can clearly hear what they NEED to hear. And...you both need to learn how to IGNORE those emotional triggers when you're listening to your spouse, so that instead you're listening for the REAL message you need to get out of what's being said.

Find a competent counselor, who is PRO-marriage, and when you go for the first time, tell them that the FIRST thing you need to do is what I've suggested above.

One other good thing our MC had us do. He told us to schedule our talks on the R, and on the A. Have a set place/time that we would deal with those things. A set time limit that is strictly enforced. When time is up, the person who is speaking finishes what they say, and everything is tabled until the next discussion. AND THEN ALLOW NO MORE DISCUSSION ON THE SUBJECT UNTIL THE NEXT SCHEDULED TIME. Spend the rest of your time simply being a family again. Spend it as I've suggested, doing something trivial together.

This ties into SH's plan for 15 hours a week too...in fact, that's what I'm trying to get ya'll to do with this concept of finding something to do together simply as friends.

Last thing. We went through this with four teenaged kids in the house. We never lied to them about what was going on, nor did we let them feel like any of this was their fault. At the same time, we learned that we needed to keep a 'united front' appearance for the kids. So...they knew mom and I were working out what our future was going to be like, but neither of us would go to the kids and 'announce' anything without having discussed it and agreed on it first. It prevents confusion and hurt for them...this is something that the two of you might consider as well.

Just trying to help here my friends.

We are doing the 15 hours a week. The schedule is 2 hours monday-friday and 3 hours sat/sun.

We were seeing a counselor and he was pointing communication problems. It worked for awhile. I became uncomfortable with conselor when he suggested that husband need to persue sex and was just short of punching him in shoulder and winking. Once, he looked at me and realized that made me mad/uncomfortable. He started to change his tune and explain his way out it. I have tried to seek another conselor but nothing yet.

Thanks for thoughts.

I would say so.


I must say reading this thread triggered me a bit as well. I don't know your whole story...emotional abuse etc etc..the affair..he said/she said stuff, but reading this thread, I ask; How can the BS overcome the already suffocatingly HUGE pain of infidelity after reading it??

If my FWW had posted this type thread I probably would have responded just like Eagle15.

It has to, HAS to be hard NOT to read your spouse's threads on these forums even though it's best not to read them. I mean, as a BS, one is already conditioned to peek at emails, IM, whatever, so how hard is it not to click on a thread afterwards?? It's like sitting in next room waiting while your spouse is at the IC trying not to listen to what is being said.

I guess my point is I haven't yet seen an example of a couple actually gaining anything from these forums by both being here together so soon in recovery. Maybe I just haven't looked hard enough?

MrsE,

What your H doesn't get now, doesn't mean he won't get later. I think he gets it and then he doesn't. I think all of us humans are like that.

Have you read "The Verbally Abusive Relationship?" I was surprised to learn about shutting down...withdrawal..forgetting...passive aggressive behaviors as equally abusive. Some are obvious and some aren't. Being aware and eliminating these are just like the LBs...they greatly improve communication and connectedness.

Getting another counselor asap is really important. Have you considered the Harleys?

I'm with Owl (on everything it seems) about counselors diligently having couples work on communication, being a referee and being an objective, supportive third party interpreter until couples can see what their parts are in the marriage.

Dr. Howard Markman (always with coauthors I can't remember right now) has a good collection of books on marriage...he's not a trend guy, but has had the Marital Study Center here in Colorado for decades. He's the real deal. Anyway, his books are great for communication exercises. I saw where you said you both tried to communicate but it fell apart...probably right to pattern, in the same ways.

In order to get to where I could listen, repeat, then repeat with my filter, I had to get rid of the idea I was good at communicating. That was like a soul-breaker to me at first. That was my one solid thing I thought about myself. Devastating to let that go and start over, but well worth it now. We are still doing communication exercises twice a week after a year into recovery.

I'd be happy to share what we do with you.

I read where you take responsibility for the affair and have apologized more than once. Would you share your reasons for choosing the A? Those are important, too, to recovery.

Really glad you're here and appreciate you posting.

LA

Hi EagleToo,


The 15 hours a week is great but at this point, you two need to be able to use that time to build compatibility. For example, scheduling 15 hours a week to pick each other a part isn't going to beneficial.

Is what you're doing during that 15 hours strengthening the bonds between you? And, if not, what needs to change in order for those bonds to be strengthened?


Frankly, I'm a lot confused about the sexual dynamics between the two of you. First, I'd like to say that I think it's great that you're willing to try to meet his needs in that area but what about you? You say you're not interested, what would it take for you to be more interested? On your H's thread, I suggested that if what was happening was taking from the relationship more than it was adding to it, that you two wait till you're on more firmer footing to resume relations. BUT, I also understand that it's generally a man's #1 or #2 emotional need so that means you don't want the hiatus to be too long.

So, what needs to happen for you to get some fulfillment out of the sexual fulfillment? Maybe, if sex was only initiated on a 'safe night' - some night where you have a moratorium on any relationship conversation and just spend some time together first relaxing, watching movies, or something that YOU find pleasant and relaxing? Maybe if you had some time ahead of time to take a bubble bath or do something for yourself that allows you to relax enough to be able to enjoy the sex? More foreplay? More of a SPECIFIC type of foreplay (something you really like)? (You don't have to spell it out here if you don't want to, but I'd like you to see if you can think of a few things that might help you create that mood within yourself.)

I know that it's going to feel strange when you're emotionally distant to go into that mode. But, remember that many men reconnect emotionally primarily through sexual bonding. So, even if you aren't all the way 'there' yet, you can do a bunch of good in helping him bond with you if you can find some way to make it a bonding experience. Generally, duty sex isn't particularly bonding for either partner. What I'd like to find is some way for sex to still be somewhat fulfilling (even if it isn't as fulfilling as it could possibly be) for YOU so that it can become an intimate BONDING experience instead of something you feel you have to do.

So, what are your thoughts?

Mys

ok, Mrs. E, you just mentioned divorce yesterday TO ME and were apparently intending on mentioning it when you visit an attorney's office this week. You HAVE been saying this to your H. And that is what causing most of his anxiety.

My point is that you can't claim to be trying when you are threatening divorce on your way to an attorney's office.


So this is a pretense so that you can't be accused of not trying? If this is not a sincere effort to save your marriage, then how can you expect your family to take your efforts seriously? When they know they are not? If you want a divorce, then why are you there?

Because if this is just game to save you some face,[so you can say "you tried"] at their expense, then Chuck has a right to know this. They are people, not pawns to be toyed with so you can say "you tried." You can't very well expect him to take your efforts seriously when they are not sincere.

Which is it, Mrs E?

And I appreciate your saying that he is not "abusive." I didn't suspect he was either, as there has been NO EVIDENCE of such a thing. Nor do I think he deserves such malicious slander in a "support" forum.

Mys

I will try to come up with something. I'm not physically attracted to him and I haven't SF for a long time.

MelodyLane

What I'm getting from you is either "**** or get off the pot". Thank you for opinion I respect it. I do believe that husband is emotional abusive and a very close friend to both of us agrees.

Good day All.

You will not be attracted to your husband for some time. You are blaming him to some degree for this mess whether you believe or not. Yes, you say that you have taken responsibility for the A but in truth, deep down inside you I bet that there is still pent up resentment that rears its ugly head and says "If my H would have done this or that I would not have had to go find someone to meet my needs".

As long as resentment and entitlement exist you will feel nothing for your H but contempt and contempt and SF or affection shall never meet. If your H is abusive verbally or has an anger issue he needs to get counseling for that right away.

You have to begin a NEW journey and agree to only learn from the old journey in order to not make the same mistakes but certainly not to pattern the NEW journey after the old one in anyway. Other than learning from past mistakes and correcting the them the old journey is useless in building the new, ground up journey.

This is crazy! Either get out or make it work. You say that you have to put in an effort. Threatening D is not putting in any effort whatsoever. My H has done the same thing to me. I have had D papers hanging over my head now since August 2004. And the whole time he's saying "I'd like to make it work, I'm putting 100% into making our marriage work..." ********. Do you have any idea what this is doing to your H and children?

I dont mean to be a smart*** here, really I don't. But reading your post made me just want to choke somebody! My H and I are now going through with the D. I wish we'd have just done it last year. But we didn't becuase he said he wanted to work on our M and I truly believed him. But I was always on eggshells, becuased he never signed the reconciliation papers. I was always worried, full of anxiety becuase there where those papers hanging there.

Filing for D is not working on it!

Mrs. E,

I see soo many parallels with your stich that my W and I went thru.

When my W was on the fence about wanting to D, or stay (which would have only been for the kiddos).

I went out one night, just because it was so difficult to be in the house. She called my cell numerous times. I didn't answer. She assumed I was with a women, and was very angry about it. I believe that night she decided to put her heart into working on the M.

Just a question you may want to ask yourself for an honest answer.

Regarding "some" of the parallel's. I was sitting at Lake Hefner, while on terminal leave.

Mrs. E, I am trying to understand what you are doing. You say that your efforts are not appreciated, but then you say that "I do want a divorce, but if I don't try to give this an effort then that will be thrown up in my face." Which gives me the impression that this is all for show and your efforts are not sincere. Seeking a divorce is not the action of someone who is trying to SALVAGE a marriage, but of someone who is trying to DESTROY a marriage.

It is incongruous to say you are sincerely trying if a) you are seeking a divorce and b) are only pretending to be trying so your failure to do so is not "thrown up in your face."

Why are you there if you want a divorce, as you say?

I am trying to get an understanding here of your intentions, because your words and actions are not matching up. Can you clarify?

As far as being "abusive," I haven't seen anything here that is "abusive," perhaps somewhat domineering and controlling, but that is not "abusive" in the same sense as lying and adultery.

I appreciate all of your opinions and respones to my problem. I will not be posting any more for awhile because husband doesn't appreciate my honestly. I must consider his feelings since I have not done this from the start. I have signed a POJA for husband and hopefully will make him happy and more progress will continue. I read and learn from your experiences and read the books. Thank you again and have a good day.

Sorry to hear that. And I'm sorry this place was not very helpful to you. I hope that you are going to still try to work on some of the things you have read here.

Also I hope that you get a good job, and can be able to enjoy your homecoming.

You've got prayers on your behalf, MrsE...you're not in it alone, 'k?

LA

MelodyLane

I have told that I haven't answered your questions. I apologize to you , but I thought that I had completed this.

I'm here to be with our kids, work on the family and get a job to help pay off our bills.

I don't believe that I have held him hostage with divorce over his head. I'm doing what I can at this time. Husband sees and understands this one minute and the next it's "all for show". We have discussed and set up long term plan for getting us out of debt.

I respect your opinion on the abuse issue, but I guess we disagree on this. They both hurt each other and the marriage. This is also not the first huband has heard about this issue.

I hope I have answered all your questions this time.


Believer

I hae learned alot from this website (it surprised me). I appreciate your inputs to me. I especially like the last one on husband's. As you know he is on the divorce side of website and has changed hsi signature block. Thank you again.

LA

I appreciate your thoughts and prayers, I really need them! I think that my faith is all I have. Thank you very much for your responses as well.

I forgot to answer your question about the A. The OM is very handsome, well built, active (likes to do things), rugged outdoors kind of man. The type of man I have always been attracted to my whole life, but couldn't get. I got in shape, happy with me and in my skin and attracted the man I have always liked.

Thanks again for prayers.

Justkeeptrying

Are still with your wife?

Mrs.E:

Well your description of the OM should be another giant kick in the teeth to Mr.E.

You need to stop romanticizing him.....he's not a knight in shining armor, he's your partner in crime.

You need to pull your head out of fantasy land and concentrate on your obligations. You need to stop all of this waffling and work on your marriage.....not just for the children, but because you OWE it to your FAMILY (Which includes your husband).

God Bless,

-Caren