Hi.

My background as short as possible. Found out a year and half ago my husband was involved with another person. He claims at the time they were just friends who talked on the phone - 200 calls a months.

A year ago my husband moved out and I filed for a legal separation - more to protect myself financially. During this time we have talked on and off. He also pursed the other person to see if they could have a relationship. He claims there was too much baggage between the both of them. I know he sent gifts, dinner, etc during this time. Last gift from my husband was sent right before Christmas.

We are now in the process of a divorce and actually in the final stage really. Almost done. My husband now comes to me and says he would like to explore working things out. We talked and I told him I was hurt and he would choose someonelse over our family and did not even try to talk to me or anything just sort of bailed out of the relationship. Only reason why I could get out of him was he wanted someone to want him. Meanwhile I had two children under the age of three and much of my time was devoted to them and he could not understand and share that attention.

Here we are today and I said I would consider trying if we went to counseling and he said no the last time we went it was not a good experience - which I agree with, but I feel we need someone to help bring us back together. If not, what is going to stop this from happening again.

Other issue, he is still talking to the other person on occassion and I need that to stop and he says it will if this works out. The only thing is he has said this before and it never stopped in the past. Plus not less than two months ago he sent her flowers and a teddy bear and has spoken with her is the past week.

Is there hope or have I come to then end of my rope and it is time to move on. We also have two children and over the past year his contact with them has been minimal. I do not want to do any more damage to them - they have been through so much.

Any advice would be great and helpful!!! Thanks.

Sounds as if your WH is trying to delay things for some reason. Perhaps he really is confused and doesn't know what he wants. But, it sounds as if he has an ulterior motive from the way you describe it.

"I will break it off is this works out". Come on this is not conducive to saving the M. Make him get off the fence in my opinon. State what you require and see if he is willing to meet the requirements.

hang in there.

That comment is NOT conductive to trying to recover your M. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I saw this list once on this board awhile ago. I thought that it did a very good job of listing the responsibilities of the Wandering Spouse (WS) and the Betrayed Spouse (BS).

I hope it will be of some help to you.

Here is a list of things that he (WS) must do:
1. He must be totally honest with you about everything
2. He must answer every question that you ask truthfully and fully.
3. He must do everything in his power to prove to you that you are the one that he wants to be with.
4. He must prove his love to you...he must be patient, gentle, compassionate and understanding.
5. He must feel your pain.
6. He must fully understand the devastation that he caused you.
7. He must accept full responsibility for his actions.
8. He must stop all contact with OP and not try to protect them.
9. He must reassure you that it is OK to ask questions.
10. He must reassure you that you will not drive him away by doing the things that are necessary to heal.
11. He must recognize when your struggling or experiencing a trigger and comfort you.
12. He must be able to tell you how sorry he is and show you.
13. He must re-enforce to you, that you are not responsible.
14. He must put his own feelings of guilt and shame aside and help you heal first.
15. He must reconnect emotionally, mentally, and physically with you and stay connected.
16. He must work on rebuilding trust. No secrets. No privacy.
17. He must be willing to seek counseling.
18. He must learn what is and is not acceptable when communicating with the opposite sex...he must establish boundaries and not cross them.

Here is a list of things that you (BS) must do:

1. Give him the necessary time to prove his love and commitment to you.
2. Be open with your feelings.
3. Ask the questions that are important to you.
4. Don't be afraid that you will drive him away while you are trying to heal.
5. Stop blaming yourself for his actions. You are in no way responsible...even if you are Attila the Hun!
6. You must be able to let him connect with you. (this one takes time)
7. You must continue checking up on him in order to let him rebuild trust.
8. You must be willing to seek counseling so that you do not get stuck in one of the stages of recovery such as anger or depression.

In my opinion #8 on his list is absolutly critical! No reconsiliation can take place while the contact continues. He will use that as an "out" when things get rough (and they will). It also puts you in an undesirable position.

Stay Strong!

deannek: It can work out, of course. Sounds like he is "coming out of the fog" and is beginning to see what he will lose if the D occurs.

The real issue is what requirements do you need *right now* in order to delay the D. IMHO, he needs to agree to NC, counseling, and revealing "the truth" about the A.

NC (no contact) with OP is essential. Without NC, the A will linger, which will only cause you, him, and the kids additional pain. If he says the relationship with OP is going nowhere, then it really is best for him, you, the kids and OP to kill it ASAP.

Counseling is essential. The reason WS's hate counseling is because MCs usually can see through the WS's lies and thus can make WS pretty uncomfortable. With counseling, you and he will also be able to make your M better for both you and he.

"Truthfulness" is good for both of you. He has to stop deceiving you and also himself. The more he talks about the A, the more he will see the A for what it was rather than what he thought it was. Also, you'll be able to determine to better make sure that the A is dead.

Nope. It can't even begin to work out until contact stops. That's non-negotiable.

GC

HI ,
I think you have MUCH hope.... but... you have to decide what YOU want....I pray that with two small children you (and your H) would do ANYTING to try and make it work.
I was taught:
"THE GREATEST GIFT YOU CAN GIVE YOUR CHILDREN IS TWO PARENTS THAT LOVE EACH OTHER"

Don't let people tell you that children are resilient... they NEVER totally get over it...




I agree with almost everything else but I can't totally agree with this...There is no WAY you are DESERVING no one is... but you ARE in some way "responsible".

Understanding THAT is really the key to YOU being able to FORGIVE.....REPAIR YOUR SELF ESTEEM......LET GO OF THE HURT/ANGER (that can consume you) and most important TRUST.....

If you believe that it was a flaw in your husband's CHARACTER YOU will never be able to do ANY of the above....It wasn't IMHO his character, but the fact that you (me and everyone else that is in this mess) left our spouses in a place of vulnerability because of the needs we didn't fill and the OP did) There is NO WAY an A could have happened when we were all the "apple" of our spouses eye.

Again... you are in NO WAY deserving.... but you are probably at least partially responsible....

I'm sure you've read about NEEDS by now on this site... this is most likely the HARDEST thing you will EVER go through.... BUT.... the "cure" is really quite simple...

"FILL MORE NEEDS THAN THE OW AND LOVE WILL RETURN"

That is the easy plan BUT it is the HARDEST thing you'll ever do in your LIFE.

All the things listed in the above post of what your H needs to do... are right on...

Getting him to do them... well.... it MIGHT be easier to stuff an elephant into a Pepsi can.

If you ask him to do ALL of the above (and I'm not criticizing the advice at ALL it is EXACTLY what he needs to do)his head will explode and you'll see skid marks all the way to the D court.

One of the reasons he is coming back at the eleventh hour is because he PROBABLY has been thinking of this for a LONG LONG time.... BUT... he kept thinking about all the pain he's caused to everyone (the reason he hardly sees the kids...he can't face them the GUILT is probably KILLING him even if he doesn’t show it)... and all the work he would have to do to "make it right" mix in.. SOME OF HIS needs being filled by OW and add a dash of anger for you for putting him in this mess (I know stupid but that's how they think) and you have the reluctance to just end the affair and come home….

My suggestions….

Be sure of what YOU want….again…. Remember the kids will ALWAYS want you two together.
If you decide on the Marriage and the children then put the D on hold….
Learn his needs and try and fill them *especially the ones SHE is filling*
(Expect for a while you will be the only one giving and do a Plan “A”)
Keep record of the progress (as it is in VERY small steps and you may get frustrated)
Make sure YOUR love bank can take it… keep close track of YOUR love for your H.
If you can afford it call a counselor from this site… Steve or his sister…. They are EXPERTS on infidelity.

When you need to vent come here…. Cry… here…. YELL here….. We will do our best to help…

GOOD LUCK AND PRAYERS

PLEASE HELP, I’m a FWW and I believe the choice of a WS to have an A is NEVER the fault or responsibility of the BS. Yes, the circumstances in the M and lack on the BS part to fulfill the EN’s of the WS might have contributed to make the WS vulnerable to the attention of the opposite sex, but it’s still not the BS fault or responsibility that the WS had actually decided to act on their feelings and get involved in an A.

To have an A is not a solution to unfulfilled EN’s and problems in a M. If the WS felt unhappy or unfulfilled in the M, it was his/her responsibility to talk to the spouse about his/her unhappiness in the M and seek professional help with the BS (if necessary). But in stead, the WS has chosen to remain silent and react on the inappropriate attention of an opposite sex person and engage in an A. For THAT the WS needs to take 100% responsibility and the BS can’t share any responsibility in this.


PLEASE HELP, from my point of view and perspective as a FWS, I believe WS’s stray and/or can become vulnerable to A's because of the following reasons:

1) Unmet EN’s and/or problems in a M
2) Pure selfishness and/or a character flaws and/or lack of morals.
3) For reasons/ circumstances other than problems/issues within the M e.g. personal problems/issues and baggage a person bring into the marriage and/or personal weaknesses & vulnerabilities and/or failure of WS to protect themselves against their own weaknesses/vulnerabilities.
4) Combination of the above.

During my friendship with XOM I became vulnerable and tempted to have an A because of nr 3 above...it was not about me feeling unhappy or unfulfilled in my M at all... Actually I was very happily married at the time and was not aware of any major unfulfilled EN’s in my M. It was al about me and unresolved issues within myself at the time... Unfortunately and sadly it took the pain & devastation of an inappropriate involvement with another man to make me realize these things, seek help and address the issues within myself... Chances are big that this is also the case with Deannek’s H (any every other WS/FWS).

Some people have “voids” in themselves (and these “voids” can be there because of different reasons and not necessarily because of unmet EN’s in the M) and then they try to “fill” these voids in destructive and wrong ways… Some try to fill in with alcohol or drugs… Some try to fill it in less destructive ways like emotional eating, compulsive spending, working etc. There are a MILLION ways people can try to fill these “voids” and negative feelings within themselves… And then there are those who try to fill these voids with destructive and inappropriate attention from other people…like having an A… Often when opportunities arise & people are tempted, they are not strong enough to resist and then become involved in an A.

Therefore, IMO betrayal goes much deeper than just unfulfilled EN’s in a M. Yes, this can definitely be a part of it, but it’s more complex and goes deeper than this. I believe the main problem with WS’s is a failure to protect themselves against their own weaknesses/vulnerabilities. The problem is, usually the WS is not aware of these weaknesses/vulnerabilities before it’s too late… And by the time they realize it they are already too deep in and find it very hard to go into reverse (because it’s like an addiction) and therefore decide to progress with the destructive and wrong behavior… And by the time they became aware of those things, they are so caught up in the ‘fog’ and rationalizations, they can’t ‘think straight’ anymore… It’s a huge and vicious cycle…

Certainly unmet EN’s in a M can play a huge role… No marriage is perfect and of course all the most important EN’s of spouses are not 100% met all the time (if it was, then we would live in a perfect world), but I strongly believe it goes much deeper and the problem mainly lays within the WS. The fact that many people in unhappy and unfulfilled M’s DON’t stray and betray their spouses is a clear proof of this. The bottom line is that BS’s are never responsible or can take the blame for the WS A, no matter what the situation is/was.

Just felt I needed to share this with you...

HI Suzet,
Sorry for the thread jack...

I have to say I thought I may get flamed for what I said that's why I said what I said so carefully below... but I NEVER thought it would come from a FWS I figured an angry BS.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />





I TOTALLY agree....like in MY sit where my WW had been married 2X before and had/has TONS of emotional problems and is on DOZENS of meds and has been since WAY before we met.

So yes... there are sits that are like yours and mine but not all... I guess what you said is truer than what I said because these things have to be at least explored....

BUT... what I was really trying to get through is that in order to BE ABLE to forgive and move towards a healthy marriage if in fact it ever WAS healthy... (based on your great insite) and in fact the WS IS without baggage ( but who is really <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ? )

Then knowing that there was at least SOME responsibility there of not meeting ENs (which is what Harley's site is based on)

THEN..... the BS can have a way to "defect" the anger enough to even do Plan "A" without LBs

BTW... in my case,,, you are DEAD ON... my WW had her A MAINLY because of her emotional problems and NOT because of the ENs I didn't meet. otherwise.... she'd be here now because BELIEVE ME... I met them after the second marriage... at least until contact seemed impossible to stop and my taker came out in full force again....even her doctor knew I did all that I could....

Anyway, the point you made would have been VERY helpful in my sit.. and I think it is critical that it be explored by EVERYONE caught up in this A thing..
GOOD LUCK AND PRAYERS... FRANK

Deannek, You still out there?

Yes I am still here. Was reading and absorbing all the informtion from everyone and other messages.

One of the hardest things for me is the fact I feel that my husband does not show any of the signs of truly wanting to work on anything. I think he just feels everything should go back to normal and I am having a problem with that.

For one he will not admit he did anything wrong at all. When I bring up her and all the gifts he has given her his response is we were legally separated at the time - so that makes it OK? This whole relationship started before we separated and is the reason for the separation from my stand point.

The only one real issue I can get out of my husband as to the problems in our marriage was not enough sex - which I agreed. But you need to realize at the time I had two children under the age of three and one was extremly difficult and I did all the work. So of course my time was limited as to him, but I feel a father and a person who was acting like an adult would realize and accept that and not turn to another person because of that.

Plus after he told me about his issues - and they were few - I tried to correct and make change, but he was not receptive.

Now the trust is gone and I really do not what his motives are or his reasons why for this change and he cannot explain them at all.

One of the issues I have besides the fact he will not got to counseling is he never has said he misses the children or me or anything...just kind of like I should be grateful he changed his mind.

I think the only reason why he did is she did not want him in the end. I think he moved out of our home and tried to have a relationship with her and it just did not work out the way he wanted. He also tried on line dating and did not connetect with anyone there.

Now I think he is lonely and maybe has decided that the old will do, but he does not want to explain anything.

Am I expecting too much. Shouldn't there be some form of remorse. I guess I just do not want to be here again in a year or so and I do not know if it is worth it. I mean he did soooo much damage to me and our children. I do not know I am torn between starting a new life or trying to start over with him.

deannek,


That will come with time... I've read again and again this same thing and once the "fog" lifts.. the remorse comes... even gratefulness that the BS had the patience and strength to "wait it out"..... do a good Plan "A" continue to fill his needs and all this will come...he is in "withdrawal" right now...
You may want to post on the RECOVERY board as there are people there that are going though the EXACT things you will be living with...Recovery is hard...but... it is worth it....Check out that board...

GOOD LUCK AND PRAYERS... FRANK

PLEASE HELP, just a short threadjack to say thanks for your response on my post – I appreciate it! It seems we are much in agreement after all. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I didn’t mean to flame you (or sound angry) and I’m sorry if it came through that way!

God bless,
Suzet

deannek....

Shouldn't there be some form of remorse.

personally for me I think there must be....

could you use 180's on him...
could you show him someone strong and confident and smashing looking....

who is kind of moving on ....
but still interested in having him around...

see I think taking someone who refuses counseling is beyond dangerous.....
I think it is infact doomed to fail....

AND

I think forcing someone in to counseling...
only way the wife will take me back is if I go to counseling....and so I will go through the motions and say and do the minimal to get her off my back...

I don't think so...

I think you stall
I think you think about this a while..
I think you get your self strong enough emotionally and physically....to get your self in a place that you KNOW without a doubt what is tolerable...

you both are blessed with children...
and reconciling would be a great thing...

but not necessarrily with a man who can use his coming back as weapon...
or worse come back to leave again...

if I were you..
I'd quit powerstruggling with him the contact with the OP...
I'd quit saying a word about counseling...

AND
I'd avoid all talks about stopping the divorce...

and just plan A the heck out him...with the reality of kicking him to the curb each night...

kindly
and
gently
but in the this is the way you wanted it buddy....
type of way....

The fact that you are questioning and wavering and it is NOT clear to you...is a bigger red flag than his entitlement crap...

do not settle and or invite back in to your life that that is intolerable on all levels....

what do you think..
can you work on a plan of strengthening and knowing YOU and what you want....

ARK

Hi.

Spoke with my husband today he came over and we talked. He supposively called OW today and told her he was going to talk to me about making things work. According to what he said she said never to call her again. Of course I did not witness this exchange and have heard this before.

I told him it was essential that we went to counseling he said he would go, but only if he moved back into the house. We have been living in separate homes for the past year and really have not spent any real time together. I feel this would not work. I want to build a foundation and reconnect before we jump to living together again. Plus, I need to know that she is out of his system. We have separated before he came back, everything was great for a week and then he went back to the same old thing with her again.

I did have a conversation with him and said that if he truly loved and wanted to be with me he would understand my need to take things slow and work through things. He said no either he moves back in or he is done.

He is scheduled to sign divorce papers on Monday - final ones.

I am trying to hold my ground with the moving in part. I just feel in my heart this is too fast for us, especially given the way we have interacted in the recent past. Plus, I cannot put my children through having their Dad move in and then out again.

I guess if he truly loves me then he will make an attempt to make this work, still feel he is blaming me for his A.

I do know what I want as far as a relationship and my expectations of my husband. He just feels he is meeting me half way on going to counseling and I should let him move in to the house.

Sorry so long, I know I want my marriage, but I do not want to be walked all over and go through another A. My husband needs to make some changes and I guess I would like to see that in him before he moves back in because once he is in the house where is the incentive to work on our relationship. Because I could see him say if you are unhappy then you leave.

Thanks I love having people to talk to.

HI deannek,

This is GREAT news IMHO..... but you do have a tough decision no doubt...

When my W was gone I talked to Steve Harley with the same concerns you have... he told me to get her in the door no matter what... is reasoning.. while they are out there it's much easier for the addiction to suck them back in...

The difference is our children were grown and out of the home...

He did compromise... that's is a good sign.... if you had more time before the final papers I might wait.. but... MAN this IS a tough one...

How about one more safety net for you... what if he sat down with you and wrote a no contact letter... I know he told her... BUT... if he agrees to this then that would give me a better comfort level.

He needs to SHOW you that things will be different this time...for you and MOSTLY for the children...agreeing to MC is HUGE... since he was so against it...

I think you have a LOT of positive here....he has a little bit of a CONTROL problem... this can be worked out in MC...don't let it end your Marriage...you want your Marriage/

My call, get him in the door with a couple of extra comfort level things for you.. and let God (and MC) take care of the rest...

GOOD LUCK AND PRAYERS FRANK

I'm back. My Husband went to sign papers on Monday - I think they were settlement papers. Well after he got done I think he is having regrets. So he talked to me and said do I really want this and I said I would like to try to work this out..BUT... you cannot have any contact with her and you need to cut off everything and then we will go from there.

So he agreed and we were talking today and I asked so when is the last time you spoke with her and he said yesterday. I am so mad and hurt. Here he tells me that he is not going to talk to her and he cannot even go four days.

I asked him why he said he needed someone to talk to and I said so you choose her. He said yes. I said why did you need to talk to her, what do you feel good when you talk to her. He said yes, I told him I told you I cannot do this I am not going to be the 2nd woman in your life. He said well, you did not really tell me that you wanted a relationship with me so I am not giving up my friend.

What do I do - I am so tired and worn out. Do I just go through with the divorce and if he loves me then maybe he will realize what he lost. Do they ever give up the OP?

Help!!! Thanks.