This is not to be unexpected. We all learn how to blame shift like this as children. My 13 year old will knock his 8 year old brother in a snowbank and when confronted will say "Yeah I pushed him but he looked at me the wrong way" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

My kids do this all the time. The knee jerk reaction is to blame the victim. But I know ALOT of adults who do this too. It`s a sign of immaturity IMHO.

However my kids do come around and accept responsability for their actions and offer apologies.

Your W owes you an apology too. I do believe she will come to understand this. Don`t back down from this, you don`t have to LB but you do have to stand your ground, discuss it and let her know how hurt you are.

I agree with Big Kahuna although it was only a ONS ten years ago counselling for BOTH OF YOU would be an excellent idea right now.

We attended a "dynamic marriage" class sponsored by our church about 2 years ago. It was based on Dr. Harley's works. I literally had to drag her there. She wanted to quit going several times. It helped for a while, but I am guilty of not persevering with the concepts. She did not like the whole approach at all. Doesn't like the logical approach. I should mention that English is not her first language and her cultural background also made it hard for her. I admire her for sticking it out. I am re-reading everything on this site and when the time is right, I'll ask her to go through the exercises again with me.

Yes, she is in an emotional divorce. She is really mad at me. I choose to believe that her saying she is not sorry is only a defense mechanism. She did apologize when she told me about the A. She broke down and wept, sobbed. I believe her guilt and remorse were real. She has admitted she betrayed me. But she also expects me to forgive and forget immediately so we can move on.

She is definitely not happy with the state of the marriage. But usually when I propose changes, she resorts to "you haven't changed in 10 years, and you won't improve now" so she has a defeatist attitude.

I think her primary EN is communication. I am horrible. I literally don't know how to have casual conversation. I really need help in IC in that area.

I am in IC and I think she'll be open to MC when the right time comes. She is still mad at me as of this morning though. Refusing to answer my questions. Very immature emotional response. Drives me nuts. This is not new behavior for her. She is on her period now so perhaps there are hormonal things going on that are aggravating the situation.

I suspect she'll start communicating more. Will apologize. Will still expect me to "get over it".

New flash for your W, she doesn`t get to decide the timeline here.

About the language and cultural differences. I am an American who married a French canadian and I live in Quebec. Let me tell you is it was VERY hard to assimilate into another culture. And I although I am considered to be bilingual I can never express myself quite as clearly as I would like when I speak french. My H does not speak english BTW. And at times I have felt like I was on another planet. I was raised a certain way, had certain cultural traditons and my own viewpoint. I felt was expected to change pretty much everything about myself in order to be able to fit in. I didn`t like that.

How does your W fit in? Do you speak her language? Have you melded both cultures and traditions into your family?

Communications was a sore spot with H and myself. I didn`t always understand exactly what he was saying and he didn`t always understand me. So gradually the communication petered out. Plus the fact that he`s of course a man and I am a women, we didn`t always find the same topics interesting.

We are doing much better with this now though. And our children are bilingual and that has helped us too. As our boys have grown our differences have become less apparent. The boys are very much like each of us.

Does any of this sound familiar?

Oh yes. Very familiar. My wife is Japanese. Lived there all her life till we came to the States 5 years ago. The first 18 months were very hard for her. She now has a lot of friends here (both Japanese and non).

I can speak a little Japanese and our D9 and D6 were both born there and go to Japanese school on Sat so they are close to fluent. So over and above the regular Mars and Venus communication problems, we have cultural and language to deal with too.

On occassion she will give up and refuse to speak English. I don't blame her. She has really been through a lot the last 5 years.

We have done a good job of melding traditions. Our D9 is very proud of her Japanese heritage. My W and the kids go back to Japan every summer for time with cousins, grandparents, etc.

It`s good that your W has made some Japanese friends. That`s will help her to feel more at home. I started to feel much more comforable when my boys started to attend an english school and I made many friends in the small english section of our community. I haven`t met many American`s though and none from the south which is where I am from so I still miss that.

Do you ever butt heads over what is expected in your culture versus how things are one in hers? My H and I did. What is considered good manners in our respective cultures often differs. And the humour is completely different. What I find hysertically funny will often leave H cold. And vice versa.

Over the years we have grown accustomed to this and POJA`d things so other than the differences in humour everything else has fallen into place.

It`s possible that some of the unhappiness that your W feels now could be attributed to her not being in her own element. Has this been discussed?

She has definitely started to feel more at home here. She even mentioned last summer and the year before upon returning from her summer trip to Japan, that she felt like she was coming home.

It must be hard for you not having American friends. Due to the large Japanese population here, she has more friends than I do. ;-) She is very friendly and outgoing.

There are plenty of mismatched cultural expectations that we have had to deal with. I think the strongest is that in Japan, the primary relationship is mother-child, not husband-wife. So the concept of getting away without the kids is foreign to her. Makes it really difficult to get alone time with her to focus on *us*.

I definitely think she is feeling alone right now, away from her family and oldest friends. I'm sure this is contributing to her unhappiness.

I went to IC again today. Learned that my mode of being is based on fear, i.e. I will do anything to placate her anger for fear of her leaving me. Counsellor said this probably makes her lose respect for me. I need to overcome my fear and instead of avoiding or attacking, I need to constantly confide, i.e. share my feelings, not collapse and become a doormat.

So FWW won't come to MC with me on Friday because she has a prior hair appointement. huh?

The counselor does not usually come to the office on Friday, but made a special case for us.

I'm pretty mad about this. I need to be really careful not to become angry and disrespectful with my W.

I think your counsellor is correct. You can`t live your whole life like that you know. To be the best spouse you can be and to be able to enforce your own personal boundaries you must feel strong enough to stand on your own. In otherwords you love your W and would like to be with her but you could also get along just fine without her too.

You can`t force your W to go to MC with you. However you can continue going and work on your own issues. Once you feel stronger and happier it will rub off on your W and it may inspire her to seek help as well.

If you change how YOU operate then your W will change as well. The rules of engagement will have be different so she will have no choice, whether she`s in MC or not.

About getting away with alone with your W, have you tried to POJA this? Could you find a Japanese women to babysit? Someone your W knows and likes? As the children grow your options will widen here. They will eventually go off to camp, go on sleepovers, and perhaps may go off to Japan one summer on their own.

Small kids do put a damper on alone time. When my boys were small I was loathe to leave them with anyone but Grandma. And I am not even japanese <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Since my oldest was 9 we have been sending him off for 5 weeks every summer to a special camp (a camp for dyslexic children) That just about killed me the first summer but now I am used to it. This summer it will make the 5th year he attends. Last summer we started sending the 8 year old. He just went to a weeklong day camp though and he slept at Grandma`s. It was FABULOUS.

The apron strings are going to get cut eventually. Your W may want to spend all her free time with the kids but the day is coming when THEY are not going to want to spend all their free time with her.

In the meantime check out some different options and see if you can`t POJA this.

Yes, I can't force her. We had an emotional roller-coaster last night. Started talking, got heated, ended up on a good note. I was trying to confide, without avoiding or attacking and it seemed to work. We will try to schedule MC next week.

W claims that the "problem" is entirely mine now. She wants to wash her hands of the whole affair, (no pun intended). She feels she has done her part, i.e. apologized once and asked for forgiveness so now I need to simply forgive and forget and stop being depressed.

Snap out of it. Easy to say.

As for POJA on alone time with the W, surely if she is not enthusiatic about it - then we couldn't do it right? Or does it mean that if I am not enthusiatic about bringing the kids along for "date night" that we can't bring them. So if we don't agree, we are at an impasse. Our negotiating skills are pretty weak. Time to read some more...

But you are right, sleep overs and camp on on the horizon. And we have had offers to babysit from people she trusts. Patience and baby steps. ;-)

Some time alone for couples is very important. I am sure you have read about this on the site. I am assuming that it would be difficult for your W to read through the site herself. My H tried but found it too difficult.

I did all the reading and then discussed what I read with my H. At first this didn`t go over well. H didn`t see the point...wanted me to get over it...you know the drill.

But slowly he started to come around. I began to present the information in ways that he could see benefited HIM. Like the EN questionnaire. I told him that by filling it out he was going to get what HE wanted. I had to fufill whatever HE put at the top of his list. Well this sounded good to him and got his attention. The same with POJAing, once he realised that I would negotiate so we BOTH got what we wanted then H finally hopped on board.

Think about this. How can you present the MB material in a way that your W understands that she is going to get what SHE wants?

And let your MC know that you have been looking at the MB material.

I found out about my Hs A 4 years after it happened. He finally couldnt handle the guilt anymore and told me everything. We have been up and down for 2.5 months but it is slowly getting better. Your world like mine is upside down but every day you make it through with out doing something "stupid" you are one day closer to being healed.

My H can only take so much abuse from me. The crying sad W he can handle the "why" questions and the anger from me are very difficult for him and he often says things he doesnt mean "you will never.."

It is part of your history now and you will look at her differntly now. She hurt you like no one else could and I bet you never thought she would. Thats not to say there is no hope. I am new too but I can say that one good thing that has come from this so far is that my H and I both know for sure that we want to be together and we are commited to being in love forever.

I think it will always hurt to remember his A but someday I hope it will be ok. I hope that our love will be enough to make me ok with it. I hope the best for you.
HF

Hi there, From someone sitting in your wife's shoes in almost the exact scenario, I thinks it's great how you are trying. I can tell you that yes, your wife is probably feeling extremely guilty and just not sure how to act around you and wants your respect back. If she's feeling anything like me, I have been trying the last few days to somehow shift the blame for my actions over to my husband. This isn't helping us at all now but I haven't been able to help it. He is not to blame though and I'm not going to do that anymore. The guilt, the hurt to others...it's overwhelming when you realize the scope of damage caused by a lack of judgement. She's probably wondering what kind of person she is....what type of person is she to do something so hurtful to another, questioning her self worth....all these things while wanting you to feel better too. I hope that my husband can forgive me the way you are trying to forgive your wife. I will NEVER make a mistake like this again..EVER! I just want this nightmare to be over! Good luck to you (and me).

intention,

Welcome to MB

There is a poster named Nottoday that was in here a few months ago recovering from a recently disclosed 6 year old "couple night stand" affair his wife had. You can search his name and if you find a post by him click on his name and read all his posts and threads. His story may be of particular interest to you. If not, no worries.

In my opinion, you are not commanded to forgive immediately and move on. You've got to progress to "acceptance" before you can properly forgive. You've got to go through a few stages in the process...anger, denial, remorse, regret, acceptance then forgiveness. I think you'll find a good read if you search out the forgiveness thread in the recovery forum also.

Your marriage can become better than ever before.

Good luck,

Mr. Wondering

Thanks for the feedback guys. It is incredibly helpful to hear from other BS and WS. It helps me understand what my FWW is going through. We are making steady progress. I have already seen a glimpse of how much stronger we will be. I'm having a good day today. There will be more bad days ahead, but they will be further and further apart.

My W agreed to come to MC with me on Wed. She is not exactly thrilled about it but at least she agreed. I'm really happy about that.

The pain has changed from a sharp panic to a dull ache. I have a physical pain in my chest.

But had lunch with my W today which was excellent. I was as upbeat and playful as possible but it was not all a front, since I'm genuinely feeling good today. Even my boss commented that I looked happy. He doesn't know details but is aware I'm dealing with some home issues right now. Fortunately he is very understanding.

Reading up on "fog babble" has really helped. It made so much sense! I realize that I am not insane and that the aliens will deliver FWW from the fog at some point.

Anyway our lunch date was great and we have even found someone to watch the kids tomorrow night so we're planning on going to the driving range (one of our mutual leisure activities is golf) or maybe going to see a movie.

Tonight is family night. Focus on the kids, dinner at home, play some games together. Looking like it will be a good weekend - but ready for another 2x4 at any moment ;-)

I understand that pain. I had the same physical pain in my chest.

My story, in brief: W had ONS (2 nights) in Jan 1997 and D-Day was Feb 2004. I was caught completely off guard.

I don't have any great words of advice. Just know there is another who understands your pain and can sympathise with you. As I know you've heard by now, be prepared for many ups and downs along the way. For me, the secret has been much harder to deal with than the act itself. I won't put any link to my posts here, as I am as much a story of long-term struggle as anything and I don't want you to be discouraged on my account. However, if you want to learn from my many mistakes, I'm sure you can find it. I wish you well during recovery.

Todd

Thanks Todd. It is always good to hear from someone else who understands what I am going through. I'm sorry to hear about your situation. How are you guys doing now?

One of my LBs is Independent Behavior on the part of my W. She has (inadvertently) been making a lot of independent decisions lately. Perhaps because of what I just found out barely two weeks ago now, I am super sensitive to it.

She agreed to babysit for our friends on Friday night without consulting me, despite our having talked several times about it being family focus time.

I chose not to display my disappointment and frustration and it worked out fine. The rest of the weekend was great. We went to coffee and the driving range on Sat night. Had a lot of fun. Sunday was church and a lazy afternoon.

Then right in the middle of a stretch of doing just great, a thought hits me out of left field that she betrayed me in a terrible way - and the anger starts churning again.

I got a copy of Forgive and Forget by Lewis Smedes (at the recommendation of one of the posters here). It is pretty good. The opening analogy alone is worth the price of the book.

I'll be going to MC with my W on Wed. I'm really glad she agreed to come with me.

Our MC session went really well. Even the therapist was surprised at how much progress we made in an hour. For the first time, I am really confident that we WILL get through this and our M will be stronger. Not too bad for three weeks since d-day.

I need to learn to confide without being judgemental. That is going to be hard for me. I will need lots of practice.

Had to post to you, intention, after reading why you named yourself that on CarenMC's name thread...

I have no experience with your situation...wait. I do. I was gonna say my FWW self was always upfront and in my H's face about it. Hide my shame under "honesty." I was very manipulative. Was very dishonest with myself.

The wait comes in, though, when I realized that I didn't tell my H about one A for seven years. Wow. Guess I came here for my own reasons to your section of the world, huh?

Seems to work out that way a lot for me.

Well, I wanted to get to know you and your situation because I've been thinking about the difference between intentions and intending...wanted your help.

Now I've flummoxed myself. I'll have to ask my H about how he feels now about my disclosure, how it compares to the all the others. Gee, thanks.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

And I wanted to hug (((sssttt))) and tell her she's brave and here and that's everything.

LA

Hi LA - thanks for stopping by <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I'll have to read up on some of your posts to get to know you too. Always a good thing to find another traveller on the road.

I'd be interested to know your H's response too, about the disclosure. I still go back and forth. I see now the burden that was lifted from my wife. I see how it allowed her to open up to me in other ways. I see that good can come of it. But I also wish I never knew what she did to me. Or more correctly, I wish she never did what she did to me. That betrayal of trust surpasses everything.

I'm a firm believer in not looking back. Can't change the past. The future is wide open... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />